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Ladder Fear

Blogs > Plexa
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Plexa
Profile Blog Joined October 2005
Aotearoa39261 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-10-27 10:49:16
October 27 2011 07:37 GMT
#1
[image loading]

It's a term that's thrown about these forums more often that we would like. To some of us it's a foreign concept - 'lol who could get scared by laddering' - but to many members it's a real issue. I'm not a psychologist, I don't know why it's such a common issue to many gamers. But what I will say is that the cause is most likely varied across those experiencing it. As such, 'treatment' of this issue will likely be very personal.

Now I'm sure there are those of you reading this going 'lol Plexa that's bullshit, the 'treatment' for this is simply mass gaming' and well, you're half right. Mass gaming will cure people of this issue. However, by that point half the battle is already won. My guess is that people know that mass gaming will fix it, but they can't get themselves to mass game. Which, in my opinion, is fair enough. With this post I will share two things - my own struggle against ladder fear and the causes behind it and some things that people can use to try and overcome this problem.


My Encounter with Ladder Fear

Actually getting the courage to log onto battle.net for the first time was actually quite a struggle for me. When I first got Starcraft 1 there was the ominous "Multiplayer" satellite glaring at me every time I opened the game. Whatever, I was only interested in playing single player with all the cheat codes and occasionally LAN'ing with my brother via IPX (cmon, I was like 9 or something at the time). Occasionally I would accidentally hit the "log onto battle.net" button and the cold heartless wall of grey and orange looked into my soul.

[image loading]
Yeah, I was scared shitless by this screen.

So obviously, eventually I got over that and begun playing SC1. Over time I got better just by playing against friends and other people in Brood War NZL-1. I was even privileged to be taught by one of NZ's best players. There was a never ending stream of practice just via the people I met in channels, there was never any need to ladder to train at all.

After a few years I eventually got on to one of the ladder servers - namely PGTour. PGT was an awesome server and yeah, it was a little bit daunting seeing a channel full of little red D icons next to everyones name and a chat spammed full of "D LUNA MSG". I felt rather confident in my abilities but every season I could only muster 13-15 games. Every time I would game I would play far worst than when I did against my friends (sound familiar) and my heart would race everytime I played someone.

Looking back, it's easy to identify what was causing me to feel this way. It was expectation. The expectation I put on myself to perform and illustrate to people that I really was pretty good. For me it wasn't a fear of losing, I happily would lose 17+ games in a row against my teacher, but it was losing to inferior (or so I thought) players which caused it.

This issue struck me even when I didn't lose on the ladder. For instance, in the early seasons of iCCup I would go 10-1 in D and get into D+ and then stop playing. Why? Because my record was pretty good. Can't argue with a 90% winrate! If I played anymore I might ruin my record and consequently look bad. Irrational, I know, after all who is going to go and look up Plexa on the ladder see that I have a 40% winrate and then come and message me telling me I suck. But still, I felt that my friends/rivals would look at it and compare themselves to it and feel good about themselves.

For many seasons I sat there content in knowing that my friends got to C/C+/B- and hey, I could go toe to toe with them and get by on that. "Yeah, Im D+ but I'm evenly matched against C+ ranked players." Pretty pathetic, to be honest.

I don't know what exactly happened, but one day I decided that I wanted to mass game. Knowing my past perils, I decided not to do this on my main account. What I did was used my smurf to ladder. Why do this? It meant that I was no one. I wasn't Plexa, I was someone else. If someone looked me up they wouldn't know who I was. No one would care about this account and its performance because I was an unknown.

This got me past the first hurdle, I got to D+ relatively easily. But then some of my past fears crept back into my psyche. I forced myself to start spamming the channel trying to find a game as quick as possible after ending the next one. That way I could keep those voices to a minimum. Soon, the anxiety lessened and before long I was playing at the level that I expected of myself. With that, my true ladder rank came through. I was a C/C+ Protoss depending on whether it was during Korean hours or not!

[image loading]

Fuck yeah!

Shortly after SC2 came out. And with ladder anxiety more of less under wraps, I got reasonably good. Not progamer good, but good enough. At shortly after release I was top 50 SEA and so on - I'm sure you don't want to hear more of that . But yes, there are still times when I feel like I'm going backwards and I get all anxious and stop playing. But I've learned to overcome this now, because I have a smurf account on EU with no friends (except Naruto <3) which is used purely for gaming and getting myself back into the right mindset.

I was too proud to ladder properly and that is the root of any ladder anxiety I encounter. This may or may not be true for you, but I think I've learned a thing or two about ways to combat this.


Ways to get over Ladder Fear


There was one massive thing that I had to accept before I could mass game and hence get over my ladder fear. That is...
[image loading]

You are not like these people. You are going to lose, and you are going to lose a lot. You are not going to have a sick win/loss ratio and if you do, it is only temporary.

Yeah, it sounds like you already know that. But have you accepted it? Simply acknowledging it isn't enough. Without accepting it your heart will still desire it, but once you resign yourself to the fact that these winrates are impossible then you are on the road to overcoming ladder anxiety.

With that truth accepted, you should know that the only cure for ladder anxiety is to mass game. I believe it's called exposure therapy or something like that. The best way to cure this is by experiencing it first hand, if even only by small increments. Set yourself small goals - say to yourself that you will play 5 games today and then gradually increase the number (say by 3-4 games a week). This is a simple way to increase your tolerance to laddering.

[image loading]

One tip that I picked up that isn't often mentioned, is that after you finish a game don't look at the score screen. Hit the button that takes you away from it (forgot what it is called T_T) and then hit "find match" as quickly as possible. This way the system has trapped you into your next game thereby forcing another game out of your. It doesn't give you any chance to over analyse or think about the next game which could psyche yourself out of playing the next match.

Perhaps this isn't enough, well then I would suggest that you purchase a smurf account. Don't add any friends and just use it to game. Maybe, like me, you are too proud to want to ladder on your main - so use a smurf to hide away from the rest of the world. When you feel that your skills are better then go back to ladder on your main. In my experience this is quite useful (I have 3 accounts!).

As a last resort, I would find one of my friends who is capable of mass gaming and see if they are interested in playing 2v2 with me. Don't treat this as an excuse to fuck around, but instead take it seriously. Try to become as competitive as you can with your team mate. If your friend is the party leader, then they will be able to make the next game happen removing the choice from you and allowing you to play more games.


Maybe these things don't/didn't work for you. Maybe you're reading this and have overcome ladder fear through another method - I encourage you to share your findings in this thread.

But remember this, there is only one way to truly relieve this condition - mass gaming. The problem is working out an effective method for you to begin mass gaming. Once you are able to devise a method to enable this, the anxiety will go away with time. And even if it resurfaces, then you will have ways to deal with it. I hope you got something out of this!

Plexa

On October 27 2011 19:24 Umpteen wrote:
I went through a patch of terrible ladder fear a while back. I would sit down with every intention of playing, and end up browsing TL, writing long posts or watching streams. It reached the point where I actually couldn't look Raynor in the face as the game booted without getting tense and anxious.

Unfortunately, mass gaming wasn't a viable solution. I only have time to play 2-3 games per day, 5-6 on rare occasions, not enough for brute-force desensitization. Instead, I had to sit myself down and devise a mental attitude that would enable me to Find those Games. I began by asking myself:

What am I getting out of pressing the button?

Why was I doing it? What was I trying to achieve?

As this was the first time I'd ever properly analysed my relationship with competitive games, it was a combined epiphany and facepalm to realise that I was doing what I always did, which was to unconsciously cast myself in the fantasy role of:

Ordinary Guy Who Turns Out To Be Amazing!

You know the deal. The Last Starfighter. Star Wars. Ender's Game. Obviously I wasn't literally imagining myself hitting 400apm in my first match, or in fact doing any of the things it actually takes to be good. But I was definitely imagining myself being gifted, a fast learner - quite the cosy little fantasy to put on the line when I hit that button.

I realised that if that were the only reason I could find to play, I might as well stop. The only way that could end was - I could see with hindsight - how my other abortive forays into games and sports had ended: frustration, resentment, and a lot of brooding where I would waste hours cooking up reasons why it wasn't my fault.

So I came up with a different reason to play:

SC2 was going to be the game that changed my relationship with games.

I was going to train myself to enjoy the process of learning, and to value improvment rather than attaining any particular ranking.

Next I considered the reactions I had to winning and losing:

When I won, I'd often stop playing, or watch the replay instead of queuing up another match.

This was easy to understand: I'd been anxious before the game and now it was over, and had ended well. I'd bet on black and it had come up - and now I was going to leave with my winnings rather than risk another spin. On the other hand:

When I lost, my instinctive urge would be to deliberately throw a string of games.

This confounded me at first. But then I saw echoes of it in posts by other people here on TL. They advised those experiencing ladder fear to 'play some 2v2s' or 'just mess about' or 'do crazy strats', because:

It's all about taking control.

Nobody can stop you insta-quitting, just as a strategy you expect to fail can only surprise you pleasantly. Fear of the Find Game button was plain old Fear of the Unknown, and I finally appreciated something else:

The ladder always does its best to maximise uncertainty.

That's what funneling you towards a 50/50 ratio means. Even if you're awful, like me, there's no escape, no emotional refuge to be found in fatalism, or mentally casting yourself as the underdog. The outcome of the next game will, for the majority of players, always be a coinflip. The only way out, I decided, was:

Take the outcome out of the equation and focus solely on self-improvement within each game.

There are plenty of guides here on TL telling you to pick some aspect of your play and practice it - maybe it's creep spread, or injections, or constantly building SCVs, or using your chronoboost. These guides are spot on; that's exactly the right way to improve. But for me, overcoming ladder fear meant making that improvement an end in itself.

Don't practice your creep spread because it'll help you win more games. Practice it because being better at spreading creep is cool. Practice constantly building SCVs and keeping your money low because it's a fun, challenging minigame, and it's great to have a massive army earlier than you used to. Scout and take watchtowers because, at the very least, knowing what's going to be killing you and when is more satisfying than having it arrive unannounced. And when that scouting knowledge allows you to make it a less thoroughly crushing defeat, or better yet a close-run thing, pat yourself on the back for a job well done.

Over the next few weeks, I was gradually able to train myself, both while playing and between sessions, to think about what I'm going to try and do better rather than brooding over what coulda/woulda/shoulda happened in individual games. I still like to watch winning replays rather more than I should, but to congratulate myself on a nice bit of scouting, well-saturated bases, timely upgrades and so on, rather than the outcome. And I still get the occasional twinge when I lose, the ghost of that urge to deliberately put my MMR in the toilet, but I'm able to greet it with a wry and knowing smile, like a childhood enemy whom I no longer fear.


****
Administrator~ Spirit will set you free ~
Azera
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
3800 Posts
October 27 2011 07:43 GMT
#2
Whenever I ladder I always remind myself that I'am the eggman.
Check out some great music made by TLers - http://bit.ly/QXYhdb , by intrigue. http://bit.ly/RTjpOR , by ohsea.toc.
Itsmedudeman
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States19229 Posts
October 27 2011 07:45 GMT
#3
I added a suggestion in one of my blogs on what features blizzard should be adding and one of them was "No Stats Matchmaking". It's seriously one of the simplest ways to promote people to just play the game and holds no backlashes for them. I would suggest it to them on the blizzard forums but it would sort of blow my mind if they haven't thought about this.
jimbob615
Profile Blog Joined September 2006
Uruguay455 Posts
October 27 2011 07:45 GMT
#4
i've rarely had this, but if i have its instantly cured by playing a single game. if i win, i can't wait to win again. if i lose, i can't wait to play again and WIN this time. winning is what it's all about
Sarang
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Australia2363 Posts
October 27 2011 07:45 GMT
#5
This is really cool - as someone who still occasionally struggles with ladder fear, this is really helpful.

Most of it I already knew, but to read it written by somebody else makes it help quite a bit. In fact, you've inspired me to ladder a whole bunch when I get home tonight. =)

Now I just need to choose whether to ladder with Zerg or Terran. xD
"Killer helped me feel better before coming to the arena. He told me to say that." - Bomber
Plexa
Profile Blog Joined October 2005
Aotearoa39261 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-10-27 07:53:39
October 27 2011 07:51 GMT
#6
On October 27 2011 16:45 Itsmedudeman wrote:
I added a suggestion in one of my blogs on what features blizzard should be adding and one of them was "No Stats Matchmaking". It's seriously one of the simplest ways to promote people to just play the game and holds no backlashes for them. I would suggest it to them on the blizzard forums but it would sort of blow my mind if they haven't thought about this.

No stats matchmaking just doesn't work, or at least, wouldn't have worked in my case. It's the act of playing against someone else, imo, that's the scary part (in addition to stats and rank etc). Plus it's insanely hard to implement in a useful way. Plus it doesn't actually help people to play ranked games, imo, as you'll still get scared in the ranking once you're used to playing random people. Further, I remember my first game against IG.parchandri who was reputedly NZs best player at the time. I was so nervous that I got kill by a dumb vulture drop. I was pressuring myself to put up a good game, but in the end just ended up hindering my play. The same problem with ladder fear, for me anyway.
Administrator~ Spirit will set you free ~
intrigue
Profile Blog Joined November 2005
Washington, D.C9934 Posts
October 27 2011 07:53 GMT
#7
when i had this, it was all about getting that first game played. after that, your brain kicks into analysis/adrenaline/love of the game mode and dampens your fears. if you find yourself sitting there staring at the button and afraid, it's because of your ego. don't try to rationalize it, it's 100% an ego issue. this is one of the main reasons i find starcraft (yes, even sc2 ROFL) is such an absurdly difficult game - it demands so much of a person that their sense of worth can be inextricably bound to the results they achieve in it.
Moderatorhttps://soundcloud.com/castlesmusic/sets/oak
Itsmedudeman
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States19229 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-10-27 07:56:05
October 27 2011 07:54 GMT
#8
On October 27 2011 16:51 Plexa wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 27 2011 16:45 Itsmedudeman wrote:
I added a suggestion in one of my blogs on what features blizzard should be adding and one of them was "No Stats Matchmaking". It's seriously one of the simplest ways to promote people to just play the game and holds no backlashes for them. I would suggest it to them on the blizzard forums but it would sort of blow my mind if they haven't thought about this.

No stats matchmaking just doesn't work, or at least, wouldn't have worked in my case. It's the act of playing against someone else, imo, that's the scary part (in addition to stats and rank etc). Plus it's insanely hard to implement in a useful way. Plus it doesn't actually help people to play ranked games, imo, as you'll still get scared in the ranking once you're used to playing random people.

It would help because part of ladder fear is about going on losing streaks and getting demoted. Being able to play games against random people is a step in the right direction, and will give people confidence. Also, why should ladder be the only thing that matters? As long as people can find ways to play the game, that should be the most important thing to consider.
marttorn
Profile Blog Joined May 2011
Norway5211 Posts
October 27 2011 07:55 GMT
#9
This issue struck me even when I didn't lose on the ladder. For instance, in the early seasons of iCCup I would go 10-1 in D and get into D+ and then stop playing. Why? Because my record was pretty good. Can't argue with a 90% winrate! If I played anymore I might ruin my record and consequently look bad. Irrational, I know, after all who is going to go and look up Plexa on the ladder see that I have a 40% winrate and then come and message me telling me I suck.


This is exactly how I felt back then. I would be so scared of losing a game on battle.net that whenever I did I would make a new account like a total ass.
memes are a dish best served dank
igotmyown
Profile Blog Joined April 2009
United States4291 Posts
October 27 2011 07:56 GMT
#10
Back in the days of vanilla to early Starcraft, there was ladder and "normal" multiplayer games. In my mind, ladder was reserved by hardcore super serious players, kind of like those Japanese players that compete in Nintendo championships. They're probably just beat you horribly in ways you don't understand.

But the "normal" multiplayer which Blizzard introduced with Warcraft, much more reasonable, since by default you played on ladder and it was used more for matchmaking. The old SC ladder, you could just join a game and be matched up against Zileas or Grrrr... (and on fast speed). It wasn't there for casual gamers, it was there for serious ones.

I think it's a normal reaction, in normal sports let's say you play football/soccer casually and then someone asks you, hey, want to play some games in the NFL/World Cup? Or say you do some karate and someone asks you to box with Mike Tyson. The reaction would be, um, I don't want to be destroyed.
OmniEulogy
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Canada6592 Posts
October 27 2011 07:58 GMT
#11
the thing that strikes me the most out of ALL of this is that the rank 7 GM in that screen shot is named BlackMan but unfortunately is not playing Zerg lol
LiquidDota Staff
Plexa
Profile Blog Joined October 2005
Aotearoa39261 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-10-27 08:03:58
October 27 2011 07:59 GMT
#12
On October 27 2011 16:53 intrigue wrote:
when i had this, it was all about getting that first game played. after that, your brain kicks into analysis/adrenaline/love of the game mode and dampens your fears. if you find yourself sitting there staring at the button and afraid, it's because of your ego. don't try to rationalize it, it's 100% an ego issue. this is one of the main reasons i find starcraft (yes, even sc2 ROFL) is such an absurdly difficult game - it demands so much of a person that their sense of worth can be inextricably bound to the results they achieve in it.

Yeah, on a rough day getting that first game after not playing for a bit (like, an hour or so) was a fucking killer
On October 27 2011 16:56 igotmyown wrote:
Back in the days of vanilla to early Starcraft, there was ladder and "normal" multiplayer games. In my mind, ladder was reserved by hardcore super serious players, kind of like those Japanese players that compete in Nintendo championships. They're probably just beat you horribly in ways you don't understand.

But the "normal" multiplayer which Blizzard introduced with Warcraft, much more reasonable, since by default you played on ladder and it was used more for matchmaking. The old SC ladder, you could just join a game and be matched up against Zileas or Grrrr... (and on fast speed). It wasn't there for casual gamers, it was there for serious ones.

I think it's a normal reaction, in normal sports let's say you play football/soccer casually and then someone asks you, hey, want to play some games in the NFL/World Cup? Or say you do some karate and someone asks you to box with Mike Tyson. The reaction would be, um, I don't want to be destroyed.
War3 was so bad for me customs were never melee and I was too scared to get past level 4 on the ladder T_T
Administrator~ Spirit will set you free ~
asLeep
Profile Joined November 2010
United States293 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-10-27 08:04:43
October 27 2011 08:03 GMT
#13
Thanks for the post and read, pretty much think I experienced a lot of the things you did. I found that playing customs against higher ranked friends or doing 2v2/3v3 with others as you said helped a bunch when I was scared to ladder alone. One thing that I found that was bad for me though was taking a break while laddering because I'd start feeling doubt and start being afraid to lose again, so playing a bunch at once without stopping or worrying about the results seemed to help a lot.
Heyoka
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
Katowice25012 Posts
October 27 2011 08:03 GMT
#14
On October 27 2011 16:53 intrigue wrote:
when i had this, it was all about getting that first game played. after that, your brain kicks into analysis/adrenaline/love of the game mode and dampens your fears. if you find yourself sitting there staring at the button and afraid, it's because of your ego. don't try to rationalize it, it's 100% an ego issue. this is one of the main reasons i find starcraft (yes, even sc2 ROFL) is such an absurdly difficult game - it demands so much of a person that their sense of worth can be inextricably bound to the results they achieve in it.


This is a good way of putting it. For me it was all about disassociating the results from actual play, and getting into a mindset of playing to get better and performing well vs simply trying to get a win. If you can get into the mind of just evaluating how well you played today vs yesterday vs a month ago and get really into the whole process of getting better its very enjoyable and fun - vs just 'trying to get a good record and be good' which is stressful as fuck.
@RealHeyoka | ESL / DreamHack StarCraft Lead
Itsmedudeman
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States19229 Posts
October 27 2011 08:05 GMT
#15
Also it seems that most people agree that they have little to no trouble playing team games.
Mithriel
Profile Joined November 2010
Netherlands2969 Posts
October 27 2011 08:08 GMT
#16
I can completely relate to this. I have the same, this season I played like 10 games got promoted to platinum and never played again haha.

I think my fear partially comes from the fact I watch a lot of pros and they make it look easy. So when I play and I lose and check the replay I'm like "how did I lose to this guy!!! " realizing that I am even worse than that guy, making me frustrated.

I do enjoy 2v2 though, the friendly banter while playing is what keeps me massing 2s.

I thought about smurf, but why would I, I am a no one haha. Also I want to earn the win portraits.
There is no shame in defeat so long as the spirit is unconquered. | Cheering for Maru, Innovation and MMA!
VonDarkmore
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
Australia192 Posts
October 27 2011 08:13 GMT
#17
Really well written Plexa ladder fear has needed a guide for a long time, I have a couple of mates that I have tried to help with it but it is a slow process but they are getting better I'll be showing them this though thanks for it.

Personally I was lucky I started sc1 a bit before sc2 and I never had ladder fear at all that is because my fear was talking in the chat channels (haha) I was worried someone might be like "hey you, your terrible do not talk in here you have no right!" so I would just play and not talk at all cause I thought I might upset someone, I have much the same thing for TL now not any fear I just do not want to bother people and if I wait long enough someone says what I would say anyway.

I'm guessing I got the better fear to have though of the two I was lucky it only lasted about a week though after that I become a person that would talk for ten minutes between games to every person around and people would have to ask a few times before I would finally shut up and get in a game lol.
One who understands much displays a greater simplicity of character than one who understands little
y0su
Profile Blog Joined September 2011
Finland7871 Posts
October 27 2011 08:18 GMT
#18
On October 27 2011 16:37 Plexa wrote:
Ways to get over Ladder Fear

You are not like these people. You are going to lose, and you are going to lose a lot. You are not going to have a sick win/loss ratio and if you do, it is only temporary.

^ accepting that is what allowed me to mass game and get over ladder fear!
phiinix
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
United States1169 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-10-27 08:20:39
October 27 2011 08:18 GMT
#19
I honestly hope this puts a slow/stop on the number of "i'm scared to ladder" posts. I understand it's a problem, but damn, the solutions are so easy. Maybe when it's laid out so nicely like this people will take it into consideration...

Usually I'm not in the mood to play but I'll get cheesed and then I'm raging so I play games non-stop and never look back
Waxangel
Profile Blog Joined September 2002
United States33404 Posts
October 27 2011 08:19 GMT
#20
Eh, the better solution is to just drink a lot.
AdministratorHey HP can you redo everything youve ever done because i have a small complaint?
ShadeR
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
Australia7535 Posts
October 27 2011 08:22 GMT
#21
Took me months to grow the balls to play a game on iccup. Perspired like crazy and peripheral appendages felt numbs loool.
Felo
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
Germany392 Posts
October 27 2011 08:25 GMT
#22
On October 27 2011 17:18 jnc wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 27 2011 16:37 Plexa wrote:
Ways to get over Ladder Fear

You are not like these people. You are going to lose, and you are going to lose a lot. You are not going to have a sick win/loss ratio and if you do, it is only temporary.

^ accepting that is what allowed me to mass game and get over ladder fear!


^ Not accepting this is what allowed me to improve.

Jokes aside, this post holds a lot of truth.

Another problem I often see with a lot of people is the fact that they take SC2 way to seriously. Lets face it - the largest part of the player base won't be in the masters league and honestly thats not even neccessary. The Game doesn't get magically more fun when you have a blue star in your profile - so in my opinion your goal when starting up the game should not to win or to get promoted but to have fun.

I know that the fun comes from winning for a lot of people but you can't boil down something only to the outcome, or else you'll be a "fool for victory" as BoxeR has stated in no time.

As soon as you realize that the fun comes not from pressing "Score Screen" but from planning your moves, leading armies and executing strategies then you can start to truly enjoy SC2 and the ladder ^.^
EU GML P | Check my Stream (with commentary!) -> www.twitch.tv/xFelo
DusTerr
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
2520 Posts
October 27 2011 08:30 GMT
#23
On October 27 2011 16:54 Itsmedudeman wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 27 2011 16:51 Plexa wrote:
On October 27 2011 16:45 Itsmedudeman wrote:
I added a suggestion in one of my blogs on what features blizzard should be adding and one of them was "No Stats Matchmaking". It's seriously one of the simplest ways to promote people to just play the game and holds no backlashes for them. I would suggest it to them on the blizzard forums but it would sort of blow my mind if they haven't thought about this.

No stats matchmaking just doesn't work, or at least, wouldn't have worked in my case. It's the act of playing against someone else, imo, that's the scary part (in addition to stats and rank etc). Plus it's insanely hard to implement in a useful way. Plus it doesn't actually help people to play ranked games, imo, as you'll still get scared in the ranking once you're used to playing random people.

It would help because part of ladder fear is about going on losing streaks and getting demoted. Being able to play games against random people is a step in the right direction, and will give people confidence. Also, why should ladder be the only thing that matters? As long as people can find ways to play the game, that should be the most important thing to consider.

Ladder fear IS the fear of stats (rank). Conquering ladder fear means you stop seeing your ladder stats (points/wins/rank/league) as ways to measure against others (there's always someone better) and start seeing them as ways to measure progress.
I just got demoted from placement. That means I haven't been playing as well as I can recently and need to step up my game to get promoted again.
ChinaLifeXXL
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
United States365 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-10-27 08:40:31
October 27 2011 08:39 GMT
#24
Last season I had some bad ladder fear because I would play everyday for a week, get my skills up, then take a day off and get rusty and then I'd be afraid to get the necessary loses to get back to form. What helped me get over that was looking at myself and saying "you are actually not very good. You shouldn't worry about losing." Then I remembered what jaedong said when he was asked if he got nervous before matchs: "What's the point?"

Then I mass gamed and now I don't care as much about losing.
If you can do it; you should do it every time.
Deleted User 101379
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
4849 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-10-27 08:48:00
October 27 2011 08:43 GMT
#25
I have huge ladder anxiety, too, even leading to my hands shaking and such.
Nothing else ever managed to do that, no first date and no job interview ever made me as nervous as a simple ladder match.

I'm a person who can't accept that i can't reach #1. I always want to be the best in everything i do, be it my job as programmer or a game i play. If i'm not the best, i must (by my definition) suck.
Every loss shows me again and again that i suck and will never be good enough at the game, no matter how hard i try. It doesn't matter if i would play against Nestea or some bronze guy, if i lose the game it just hits me really hard, so i mostly stopped trying.

There were times where i forced myself to play more, but after 2-3 losses i just get mad at myself for being so bad and end up losing 10 more games in a row. Recently, i play at most 5-10 laddergames a week and use the huge amount of tournament streams as excuse for not laddering.

The ladder is scary :-/

+ Show Spoiler +
It's probably because i messed up my life to a point where fixing it is no longer possible and SC2 and my programming are the only things left to define how much i'm worth. Thats why i take it waaaaay too serious. TL;DR: I'm stupid

micronesia
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States24690 Posts
October 27 2011 08:46 GMT
#26
I think the feeling I had was this:

Who I was able to beat was pre-ordained
Who I was able to lose to due to my own mistakes wasn't

That was something that de-motivated me a bit I guess.

Obviously the first statement isn't really true, but whether it's due to my style or whatnot, it usually wasn't wrong.
ModeratorThere are animal crackers for people and there are people crackers for animals.
Gurrgeh
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United Kingdom24 Posts
October 27 2011 08:58 GMT
#27
Really nice post Plexa. I used to have problems playing on the ladder. I felt that my goal was to improve but you still want to win and losing games can be painful. There were specifically 3 things which helped me.

The first was to use background music. I'd put Seoul FM internet radio on and just have kpop coming out at a nice volume where I could still hear the game. This helped put me in a more relaxed mood and just made it seem more fun. I now associate this music with fun laddering time.

The second was mass gaming to the kpop. Once you start doing it then it becomes much easier to play.

Thirdly was really trying to accept that my goal is to improve and not win. Winning is nice and all but what really makes me happy is if I play some game that I wouldn't have won before but I can see a difference in my control and decision making that leads me to win. When you want to improve then you learn more from a loss than you do from an easy win. Far more. If I were to lose to a cannon rush then it means I need to go revise my idea of how to hold them and then they should become free wins for me if I scout properly. Losing is a lesson and an opportunity. Winning is the affirmation of the lesson and an ego boost.

I feel like the music was the huge thing which changed my play though. Putting the internet radio on was just like flicking the anxiety switch off and everything else flowed from there.
Mobius_1
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United Kingdom2763 Posts
October 27 2011 09:07 GMT
#28
On October 27 2011 17:19 Waxangel wrote:
Eh, the better solution is to just drink a lot.


Oh the wise words of the Snorlax!

So true though, I stop caring if I lose after a beer (or 5).
Starleague Forever. RIP KT Violet~
dartoo
Profile Joined May 2010
India2889 Posts
October 27 2011 09:14 GMT
#29
On October 27 2011 16:45 Itsmedudeman wrote:
I added a suggestion in one of my blogs on what features blizzard should be adding and one of them was "No Stats Matchmaking". It's seriously one of the simplest ways to promote people to just play the game and holds no backlashes for them. I would suggest it to them on the blizzard forums but it would sort of blow my mind if they haven't thought about this.


If they do implement a no stats matchmaking system, it would kill the ladder system, cause already a lot of people stop laddering and custom game once they reach masters/diamond. Also you'd find a lot of people just looking to troll, because there is no importance placed on the outcome of the match. The main cause of the fear is the fact that your being judged by this system, and removing that doesnt cure it.

A lot of times I feel anxious when I'm trying out a new build,a nice way to test your build/mechanics out or just to "warm up" is to play custom games with your clan mates and then start to ladder
RogerX
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
New Zealand3180 Posts
October 27 2011 09:15 GMT
#30
Plexa, please be my friend on Facebook <3

I like how you adressed the reality that you won't get consistent crazy win/loss ratio.
Stick it up. take it up. step aside and see the world
igotmyown
Profile Blog Joined April 2009
United States4291 Posts
October 27 2011 09:16 GMT
#31
I think it would be easier if you had an option to remove the opponent's name and stat updates, so you're just playing against an anonymous player of undetermined rank.

I remember playing Kain the Feared in Warcraft 3 and started getting uncontrollably nervous that I was playing a battlereports/Kali legend.
BabyToss!
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
Czech Republic588 Posts
October 27 2011 09:29 GMT
#32
You sir, have exactly nailed why I don't ladder as much as I should. Guess I've yet to get past the stage of 'expectations' in order to just mass-game like crazy. When that happens, there will be one happy nerd..
Nowadays a Filthy Casual | Follow your dreams |
Treadmill
Profile Joined July 2010
Canada2833 Posts
October 27 2011 09:35 GMT
#33
Oh no, Plexa with the ladder fear too! I think you described why this happens really well.

I had serious trouble with this unti lvery recently. One of my worries was, because I didn't really want to ladder I wasn't playing up to my expectations since I was getting a little rusty. So then I'd want to ladder less.

What I ended up doing is tanking my elo all the way down to the very bottom of bronze. That gave me the comfort of being able to work on my gameplay while not worrying about the immediate possibility of losing. It also gave me motivation since I've been steadily working my way back up the leagues, so I have a clear sense of accomplishment. Since I did this I've actually played more 1v1 ladder games than I have since the beta, which is pretty cool. Don't know if I'll be able to keep it up once I reach peopel at my skill level again though,
humbre
Profile Joined August 2011
353 Posts
October 27 2011 10:03 GMT
#34
there was no ladder fear for me in bw because i could create new account whenever i wanted, in sc2 i have only one account and havent played ladder game in like 3 months now
Umpteen
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United Kingdom1570 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-10-27 11:13:09
October 27 2011 10:24 GMT
#35
I went through a patch of terrible ladder fear a while back. I would sit down with every intention of playing, and end up browsing TL, writing long posts or watching streams. It reached the point where I actually couldn't look Raynor in the face as the game booted without getting tense and anxious.

Unfortunately, mass gaming wasn't a viable solution. I only have time to play 2-3 games per day, 5-6 on rare occasions, not enough for brute-force desensitization. Instead, I had to sit myself down and devise a mental attitude that would enable me to Find those Games. I began by asking myself:

What am I getting out of pressing the button?

Why was I doing it? What was I trying to achieve?

As this was the first time I'd ever properly analysed my relationship with competitive games, it was a combined epiphany and facepalm to realise that I was doing what I always did, which was to unconsciously cast myself in the fantasy role of:

Ordinary Guy Who Turns Out To Be Amazing!

You know the deal. The Last Starfighter. Star Wars. Ender's Game. Obviously I wasn't literally imagining myself hitting 400apm in my first match, or in fact doing any of the things it actually takes to be good. But I was definitely imagining myself being gifted, a fast learner - quite the cosy little fantasy to put on the line when I hit that button.

I realised that if that were the only reason I could find to play, I might as well stop. The only way that could end was - I could see with hindsight - how my other abortive forays into games and sports had ended: frustration, resentment, and a lot of brooding where I would waste hours cooking up reasons why it wasn't my fault.

So I came up with a different reason to play:

SC2 was going to be the game that changed my relationship with games.

I was going to train myself to enjoy the process of learning, and to value improvement rather than attaining any particular ranking.

Next I considered the reactions I had to winning and losing:

When I won, I'd often stop playing, or watch the replay instead of queuing up another match.

This was easy to understand: I'd been anxious before the game and now it was over, and had ended well. I'd bet on black and it had come up - and now I was going to leave with my winnings rather than risk another spin. On the other hand:

When I lost, my instinctive urge would be to deliberately throw a string of games.

This confounded me at first. But then I saw echoes of it in posts by other people here on TL. They advised those experiencing ladder fear to 'play some 2v2s' or 'just mess about' or 'do crazy strats', because:

It's all about taking control.

Nobody can stop you insta-quitting, just as a strategy you expect to fail can only surprise you pleasantly. Fear of the Find Game button was plain old Fear of the Unknown, and I finally appreciated something else:

The ladder always does its best to maximise uncertainty.

That's what funneling you towards a 50/50 ratio means. Even if you're awful, like me, there's no escape, no emotional refuge to be found in fatalism, or mentally casting yourself as the underdog. The outcome of the next game will, for the majority of players, always be a coinflip. The only way out, I decided, was:

Take the outcome out of the equation and focus solely on self-improvement within each game.

There are plenty of guides here on TL telling you to pick some aspect of your play and practice it - maybe it's creep spread, or injections, or constantly building SCVs, or using your chronoboost. These guides are spot on; that's exactly the right way to improve. But for me, overcoming ladder fear meant making that improvement an end in itself.

Don't practice your creep spread because it'll help you win more games. Practice it because being better at spreading creep is cool. Practice constantly building SCVs and keeping your money low because it's a fun, challenging minigame, and it's great to have a massive army earlier than you used to. Scout and take watchtowers because, at the very least, knowing what's going to be killing you and when is more satisfying than having it arrive unannounced. And when that scouting knowledge allows you to make it a less thoroughly crushing defeat, or better yet a close-run thing, pat yourself on the back for a job well done.

Over the next few weeks, I was gradually able to train myself, both while playing and between sessions, to think about what I'm going to try and do better rather than brooding over what coulda/woulda/shoulda happened in individual games. I still like to watch winning replays rather more than I should, but to congratulate myself on a nice bit of scouting, well-saturated bases, timely upgrades and so on, rather than the outcome. And I still get the occasional twinge when I lose, the ghost of that urge to deliberately put my MMR in the toilet, but I'm able to greet it with a wry and knowing smile, like a childhood enemy whom I no longer fear.
The existence of a food chain is inescapable if we evolved unsupervised, and inexcusable otherwise.
SenorChang
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
Australia4730 Posts
October 27 2011 10:27 GMT
#36
On October 27 2011 17:19 Waxangel wrote:
Eh, the better solution is to just drink a lot.


Done that, then wake up the morning to a page full of losses lol.

It's not so much fear in my case, I have periods where I know I won't be able to play or just won't want to play and my mechanics and builds I had practiced just go out the window and I feel like I'm back to square one and get frustrated that I begin losing to players that I was beating previously.
Frustration of just having to redo it I guess, maybe when this final semesters over I'll be able to just play a more consistent amount.
ლ(╹◡╹ლ)
Plexa
Profile Blog Joined October 2005
Aotearoa39261 Posts
October 27 2011 10:48 GMT
#37
On October 27 2011 19:24 Umpteen wrote:
This is an excellent post.

I wonder if I should move this to sc2...
Administrator~ Spirit will set you free ~
atmuh
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States246 Posts
October 27 2011 13:37 GMT
#38
my main problem is between my commute to work (hour and a half each way) and working itself (eight hours) each day I end up very tired when I get home, and I don't like to ladder when I'm exhausted because I feel like I'll lose games I shouldn't
I should probably just forget about that and play but when I'm so tired I'd rather just lay back and watch a stream, usually falling asleep for a bit while watching. It's more relaxing.
SnowK
Profile Joined June 2011
United States245 Posts
October 27 2011 13:50 GMT
#39
Awesome writing macro. At some point, maybe you could write a similar styled blog on Ladder Rage? I feel the two often go hand in hand, and for me at least, both seem to be the largest barriers to actually enjoying the game.
"Its like someone went 'What does protoss need.... I know, more ways to be an obnoxious cunt'" - Liquid`Jinro
Mithriel
Profile Joined November 2010
Netherlands2969 Posts
October 27 2011 13:58 GMT
#40
On October 27 2011 17:39 ChinaLifeXXL wrote:
Last season I had some bad ladder fear because I would play everyday for a week, get my skills up, then take a day off and get rusty and then I'd be afraid to get the necessary loses to get back to form. What helped me get over that was looking at myself and saying "you are actually not very good. You shouldn't worry about losing." Then I remembered what jaedong said when he was asked if he got nervous before matchs: "What's the point?"

Then I mass gamed and now I don't care as much about losing.


This happens a lot to me too. When I decide to start playing again, I first watch replays for an entire day, and focus on a build per matchup. Then I play a couple of games each day untill I can't play for some days. After this I feel out of shape and never start again.
There is no shame in defeat so long as the spirit is unconquered. | Cheering for Maru, Innovation and MMA!
Deleted User 61629
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
1664 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-10-27 15:29:34
October 27 2011 15:29 GMT
#41
--- Nuked ---
Probe1
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States17920 Posts
October 27 2011 19:06 GMT
#42
The only time I've seen you play was when Nimbus invited me to that game where he cleaned your clock on.. uh.. Ithaca I think.

+ Show Spoiler +
And with ladder anxiety more of less under wraps, ... you mean more OR less right? <3
우정호 KT_VIOLET 1988 - 2012 While we are postponing, life speeds by
dronescout
Profile Joined March 2010
Iceland246 Posts
October 27 2011 19:23 GMT
#43
What I've learned is that being frustrated is also very demotivating and increases ladder fear.

My Personal way of dealing with frustration:

+ Show Spoiler +
Whenever I do a mistake I imagine Day[9] commeting on the game and shouting OH NO, makes me giggle everytime
I will destroy everyone in 2017
Waxangel
Profile Blog Joined September 2002
United States33404 Posts
October 27 2011 19:55 GMT
#44
more seriously, I think it's good to adopt the philosophy of losing is learning, while you don't gain anything from winning. To get better, you should always be looking for better people to lose to :o
AdministratorHey HP can you redo everything youve ever done because i have a small complaint?
MasterKush
Profile Joined April 2011
United Kingdom568 Posts
October 27 2011 23:06 GMT
#45
Thanks a lot for this thread Plexa, your comment (now my favorite quote!) about never being as good as that list of GM players was what really pushed me over the line. It's pretty ridiculous how caught up we can sometimes get about being perceived as "a beast" instead of just enjoying the damn game!
"Because, maybe, unlike what every whining kid on the internet thinks, terran actually isn't the easiest race? Shocking, I know." - Liquid`Jinro
Nazza
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
Australia1654 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-10-27 23:10:31
October 27 2011 23:09 GMT
#46
If you are still having troubles with ladder fear:
1) Play the hardest game (BW).
2) Get on the korean server (fish) so you are playing against ppl that actually know the game.
3) Play the hardest matchup (TvP/ZvT).
4) Acknowledge the fact that you are a complete scrub after going 0-50.
5) Convince yourself that SC2 isn't that bad.

Personally it's not the game that freaks me out, it's the 1+ minute wait that happens sometimes.
No one ever remembers second place, eh? eh? GIVE ME COMMAND
iSometric
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
2221 Posts
October 28 2011 00:02 GMT
#47
Just accept losing. I just think that "life is unfair" and "you can't win at everything" and proceed to lose 60% and be ok with it.
strava.com/athletes/zhaodynasty
Dalguno
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States2446 Posts
October 28 2011 00:37 GMT
#48
Thanks for the thread Plexa. I agree with it, especially where you say the cure is mass gaming, but getting to the point where you can mass game is half the battle. And I apologize again for cheesing you on ladder a month or so ago
"I'm gonna keep making drones cause I'm a baller, and ballers make drones." -Snute
Phenny
Profile Joined October 2010
Australia1435 Posts
October 28 2011 13:48 GMT
#49
Well I just played 5 placement games in a row and lost 4 but feeling great! I've played more 1v1s today than since the start of the year haha. Time to get some builds organised for each matchup though cos that was just silly.

Well at this stage it looks like this thread has been my miracle cure, thanks a bucketload Plexa <3
Steel
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Japan2283 Posts
October 28 2011 14:27 GMT
#50
On October 28 2011 00:29 Inori wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 27 2011 22:58 Mithriel wrote:
On October 27 2011 17:39 ChinaLifeXXL wrote:
Last season I had some bad ladder fear because I would play everyday for a week, get my skills up, then take a day off and get rusty and then I'd be afraid to get the necessary loses to get back to form. What helped me get over that was looking at myself and saying "you are actually not very good. You shouldn't worry about losing." Then I remembered what jaedong said when he was asked if he got nervous before matchs: "What's the point?"

Then I mass gamed and now I don't care as much about losing.


This happens a lot to me too. When I decide to start playing again, I first watch replays for an entire day, and focus on a build per matchup. Then I play a couple of games each day untill I can't play for some days. After this I feel out of shape and never start again.

It's actually not as bad as one might think.
For example I just returned from 3 months of inactivity (didn't even have sc2 installed). Took me 2 days to remember stuff and now I'm holding even against mid masters people. In fact I feel like I improved for some reason.


Weird. I didn't play for 2 weeks due to midterms, and I feel like shit. I make stupid mistakes I would never make. I feel like I have to mass games to go back to what I was before when I take a break, but this just isn't possible for me right now. I was high masters last season and after losing 10 games I was playing low masters and was evenly matched. feelsbadman. Maybe it's cause I play Zerg and since I mess up my timings I lose to DT and stuff. Pretty annoying anyway.
Try another route paperboy.
UltimateHurl
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Ireland591 Posts
October 28 2011 15:35 GMT
#51
Great blog, the 'losing as learning' approach is something I think I really need to get into, that 'expanding search' wait is a killer for me, feels like I'm in a booth at GSL or something suddenly
Spikeke
Profile Joined October 2010
Canada106 Posts
October 28 2011 20:32 GMT
#52
When SC2 first came out, I was anxious to play on ladder. First time jitters I guess. But now I don't care, learned to embrace loses and wins. I can't understand why people are still scared to play. Get over it already, what do you have to lose?

I like to remember this:
1) Remind yourself that this is one of the hardest games online
2) Nobody cares what your rank or win/lose ratio is. (Who are you impressing?)
3) Ladder is the best way to improve your play
4) It's just a game and you're not a pro (making a living off of it) so have fun.
5) Stop procrastinating and just do it, lol

This applies to all games. :D enjoy
Bebop07
Profile Blog Joined January 2010
United States291 Posts
October 30 2011 19:07 GMT
#53
On October 27 2011 16:53 intrigue wrote:
when i had this, it was all about getting that first game played. after that, your brain kicks into analysis/adrenaline/love of the game mode and dampens your fears. if you find yourself sitting there staring at the button and afraid, it's because of your ego. don't try to rationalize it, it's 100% an ego issue. this is one of the main reasons i find starcraft (yes, even sc2 ROFL) is such an absurdly difficult game - it demands so much of a person that their sense of worth can be inextricably bound to the results they achieve in it.
That last sentence is so true..if I ever lose to someone or feel like I was outsmarted/played stupid and didnt see something coming..i will literally question my own intelligence..like..am I just stupid? Is everyone smarter/better than me? Than if I win it's like..wow..I am one smart mother fucker, I can conquer the world! Such a trippy game..
VWSChe
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States144 Posts
November 25 2011 11:16 GMT
#54
I used to just do it. There are a million things in the world worse than losing a ladder game.
Trust, but verify
Steveling
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
Greece10806 Posts
November 25 2011 12:02 GMT
#55
I found all my ladder fears gone after I played some broodwar for some weeks.
My dick has shrunk to the point where it looks like I have 3 balls.
Fuhrmaaj
Profile Joined January 2011
167 Posts
November 25 2011 14:56 GMT
#56
My SC2 gaming group (including myself) has huge ladder anxiety. I'm not sure exactly what the problem is, but sometimes we just can't bring ourselves to press that "Find Match" button. For some reason however, we love team games and we play those all the time. I think the reason might be that one person suggests team games, and nobody wants to look like a coward in front of their friends so we all agree. The thing about ladder anxiety is that you want to ladder, but you just can't bring yourself to do it. If you can bring up the suggestion to your friends, then you should be laddering team games in no time.

I think that if we can coordinate our schedules a little better so that we play more often, it should hopefully desensitize us to the 1v1 fear. I've been wondering if FFAs might be a sort of gateway drug which gets you into 1v1 games because you're alone but the games are less serious. I think the key is that you're not getting paid to play this game, so you shouldn't need to take it so seriously.
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