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Czech Republic926 Posts
Complaints about mirror matchups are as old as Starcraft itself - the fact is one of the reasons I played Protoss back in Brood War was that I thought PvP is the most reasonable mirror match (and the fact I think picking races depending on matchup was and is for pussies).
Of course, when I began with Zerg, my prejudice was deforming my skill; I remember that my very first ZvZ took place on that Paranoid-Androide-like-map called... damn... had to Google it. Scrap Station. Of course, all I knew about ZvZ was "Mutaling, Mutaling, MUTALING!" and that was exactly the way I tried to approach it. It nearly worked, but I got overwhelmed by Zerglings (had no idea there is something called a Baneling at the time).
Anyhow, enough of lame memories. Once I caught up, I quickly got to my usual rate of over 90% wins in all ZvZs I play. The wins come from two directions:
- aggressive opening (Ling+Baneling either with a quick transition to Baneling+Roach or mass Roaches with quick Lair tech)
- superior micro
Let's have a closer look at some of the problematic points in ZvZ which I took advantage of and people rage about:
1. Fast Expansion
Going anything besides 14 Gas 14 Pool (or some variations of it, such as mine 13 Gas 13 Pool) is just flipping a coin. That's a fact up to mid Master's level because way too many Zergs lack the skill to properly defend their fast expansion (such as 15 Hatch) against any pressure before the 10th minute mark. I mean I can usually tear it apart with 2-3 ways and unless my opponent has superior timing and micro, "his pathetic expansion won't do anything but fall like a pile of leaves in face of..." (I think the Persian adversary said something similar in the movie 300 when he arrived at the rebuilt Spartan wall).
Simply put, FE will have massive problems against anything other except other FE. And fast pools, like 6pool + Drone allin, 8 Pool or 10 Pool? Again, without proper micro and with proper knowledge how to react it won't do squat and put you behind unless your opponent goes that 15 Hatch. The defending player just has to stall before his Lings pop out (ideally by Drones running off the Creep as they will reduce the amount of damage they receive) and again, I can then choose several ways how to proceed - Banelings, quick Lair tech for Roaches or just blatant expansion.
2.Baneling Wars
I can understand why people QQ about this particular ZvZ aspect. Massive amounts of Zerglings and Banelings just clashing head on and when everything explodes and acid covers the ground within 2 miles radius, that's something I can't stand either. Fortunately there's a very easy solution, which however requires using more than 1-2 hotkeys for your army - you just have to move with 2 Banelings at a time and cover them with a bunch of Zerglings against suicidal Zergling bombs.
I don't usually engage in Baneling wars because frankly, Roach + Baneling is far superior to Ling + Baneling; but this rule of a thumb is usually enough either to stall or to blatantly win any engagement.
3.Upgrades
In those instances where the ZvZ manages to enter the mid or even late game, people quite often neglect upgrades or begin with them very late (say, they build 2 Evo Chambers after Lair and begin researching 1/1 for Roaches simultaneously). The fact is that upgraded Roaches tear apart those with no improvements, or if you're trying to Roach against mass Zerglings, a quick +1 Missile attack will enable you to kill a Zergling with 2 salvo instead of 3.
Then there are those little things like if your opponent is spawning his first wave of Infestors and you contaminate his Pit to delay that upgrade for additional energy - which in turn renders the Infestors nearly useless when they spawn because they have to wait for an awful amount of time before they can cast a Fungal.
4.Micro!
The endless battle of the two aspects - macro and micro. Even though superior macro usually beats superior micro, my mind is just fixed on micro and I can't seem to change it. What are my tips for ZvZ?
- move ahead only with 2 Banelings at a time & send 1 Zergling to detonate enemy Baneling
- in Roach vs Roach engagement after the conclave is formed, try to quickly make groups of approximately 10 Roaches and start picking enemy Roaches 1 by 1
- when Infestors are on the field, begin engagement and then pull back - enemy Roaches will pursuit and group together like lams for the slaughter for your Fungals
- if your economy allows it, get a Spire and always have 2-3 Mutas on the field - hunt enemy Overlords and have 1 Muta hovering over the enemy army to waste Infestor's energy
- burrow Zerglings in all possible additional expansion spots
- alternatively burrow Banelings in the mineral line of opponent's third before he begins to build it
Conclusion
ZvZ is a wonderful matchup. It pushes your reactionary and micro skills to the limit whereas you can also win thanks to your extraordinary macro skills. Understanding the metagame and scouting is trained the best in this matchup I think, because even such a small thing as throwing down an Infestation Pit can make you being overrun by a sudden Roach wave if your opponent doesn't want to allow Infestors to enter the battlefield.
Let the complainers complain about this perfectly balanced matchup (I mean what else could be balanced besides a mirror match); us who actually want to play the game will have an easier way to reduce them to rubble if encountered on ladder, during tournaments or even in a friendly skirmish.
Thank you for reading!
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I assumed you where talking about Broodwar by the title and I was gonna step in and defend ZvZ. Never mind.
I did play some ZvZ in SC2 before I got completely bored of the game. Its O.K lings seem absolutely useless compared to the original. Park Chun O (Killer (minidong)) has some of the best ling control I have ever seen, its unbelievable watching him play sometimes. It’s just so disappointing that this is a skill that’s just not in the new game. The same goes for Mutas and scouge Its so much fun. So intense, even at my low level but it just doesn’t exist in SC2, 재미없어.
In the games I played it seemed that all that mattered was building buildings in the right place to stop early attacks with a couple of roaches/quuens then massing roaches and then Hydras with a small amount of control fire and cycling injured units micro and almost nothing else. 재미없어.
Of course maybe the games changed and you could argue that I had a boring play style it’s not the games fault. However that did very much seem to be all anyone did when I played.
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I'd really disagree that fast hatch builds are flipping coins and you die to any early pressure. I find 15 hatch v 6pool to be a win for the 15hatcher, you have enough drones to fend off the lings until your own lings pop, you might lose a few but you are normally ahead after it. On some maps 15 hatch v 10pool into banes is just a build order loss yeah but fast expoing is more safe than you are making out.
I like ZvZ as it's probably the matchup where macro matters the most. The guy with more drones will often win the game and it's about balancing that with staying alive. Also once speed pops both players have near perfect vision of one another. You can always see what units he's making and how many of them he has.
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I actually enjoyed the ZvZ matchup all the way up until they changed how fungal works now with more damage to armored and lasting way less time.
Fungal is just so fucking powerful now its retarded. The only unit you can make is roaches which are the least owned by fungal of all the units zerg has besides ultralisks. Infested terran spam is pretty good from burrow moved infestors later game too.
So basically the game at master level is like 15pool or 15 hatch into roach with upgrades, infestors asap, mexican standoffs while you try and expand. Maybe some speedlings poking around but ultimately doing nothing. Both getting 3-4 bases and teching to ultra or broodlord.
Instead of like the BW ZvZ were you are constantly trying to position with lings/scourge/muta and both players are on the offensive (which I still think is a shit matchup), now we have this sort of 'nobody can do anything because you will be fungaled' bullshit matchup. Probably the most boring, unstrategic, unskillful matchup of all 18 in both games. If they just made it so you couldn't fungal roaches the matchup would be awesome, but that would never happen. (actually they should give roaches a t3 upgrade for frenzied like ultras have) Then you can have some strategy based around rushing to that while they are making infestors that will do damage, but not freeze you.
pS_ I personally do not understand the whole ling baneling thing as I've never used this strategy ever and anyone who does use it is basically all inning me (in otherwords if they do it and it I can usually defend and then I win).
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On October 23 2011 18:38 Vogin wrote:
1. Fast Expansion
Going anything besides 14 Gas 14 Pool (or some variations of it, such as mine 13 Gas 13 Pool) is just flipping a coin.
lolwut?
Hatch first is standard on like half of the popular maps for a reason, you know...
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I'm a random master player and I liked this write-up. I really really struggle in ZvZ and I just pray to god I will get past early game since I'm much better at mid-late ZvZ (aka no banes).
One question though:
if your economy allows it, get a Spire and always have 2-3 Mutas on the field - hunt enemy Overlords and have 1 Muta hovering over the enemy army to waste Infestor's energy
Is this really viable? Sounds like an awful waste to get the spire just for 2-3 Mutas? Input, anyone? Should I try this?
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massing muta or getting em too early without some ground defense will get you killed if a roaching player sees what you are doing and just pushes hard into your base. however if you squeeze some out try and find a window, like during an engagement, where you can pick off 2-3 overlords. if you supply cap your opponent it is a huge opportunity to keep his army in check long enough to reinforce your units. so you can either harrass randomly, or create then abuse a weakness. also can possibly force a reaction of an extra queen at each base and spore crawlers...say 400 mineral advantage at least right there.
ZvZ is so much fun!
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Czech Republic926 Posts
On October 23 2011 21:49 borny wrote:I'm a random master player and I liked this write-up. I really really struggle in ZvZ and I just pray to god I will get past early game since I'm much better at mid-late ZvZ (aka no banes). One question though: Show nested quote +if your economy allows it, get a Spire and always have 2-3 Mutas on the field - hunt enemy Overlords and have 1 Muta hovering over the enemy army to waste Infestor's energy Is this really viable? Sounds like an awful waste to get the spire just for 2-3 Mutas? Input, anyone? Should I try this?
Well I meant 2-3 at a time, obviously you will lose a few once the one over the enemy army get Fungaled / ITed / you lose it against Fungal/Queen etc. Of course it's a heavy investment so it's viable like after you get a third and you know he has an awful lot of Overlords all over the map whose cost will justify the investment.
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Czech Republic926 Posts
On October 23 2011 21:48 MrBitter wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2011 18:38 Vogin wrote:
1. Fast Expansion
Going anything besides 14 Gas 14 Pool (or some variations of it, such as mine 13 Gas 13 Pool) is just flipping a coin.
lolwut? Hatch first is standard on like half of the popular maps for a reason, you know...
Might be a standard but that doesn't change what I said - most players don't have the skill to defend it and I usually win against it.
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EPT
