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dacthehork
United States2000 Posts
So will DOTA 2 sort of be the next "iteration" of esports replacing SC2? or will SC2 live on in Dota 2's shadow? Annual championship with 1.6 million minimum prize, DOTA TV, more interesting strategies etc. As a big SC:BW fan, its obvious sc2 has failed to live up to the spectator side of SC:Bw.   | ||
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Kashll
United States1117 Posts
They both draw different fans, players, and general demographic. | ||
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Dubzex
United States6994 Posts
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Azera
3800 Posts
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prOxi.swAMi
Australia3091 Posts
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hollabackk
118 Posts
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dacthehork
United States2000 Posts
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sob3k
United States7572 Posts
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DivinO
United States4796 Posts
On September 02 2011 09:12 dacthehork wrote: As a big SC:BW fan, its obvious sc2 has failed to live up to the spectator side of SC:Bw. It's been one year. No offense meant but I feel like your insight on the topic is somewhat short-sighted. | ||
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Cofo
United States1388 Posts
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CaptainPlatypus
United States852 Posts
Then again, my DotA's been slacking off since I started playing SC2... | ||
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dacthehork
United States2000 Posts
I just see a big decrease in interest in sc2 coming up, with bigger esports and other games sort of taking most of the interest share. | ||
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tyCe
Australia2542 Posts
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MERLIN.
Canada546 Posts
On September 02 2011 09:19 DivinO wrote: It's been one year. No offense meant but I feel like your insight on the topic is somewhat short-sighted. lets remember where BW was after 1 year... Playing on pingball tables for its first major lan : P | ||
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dacthehork
United States2000 Posts
On September 02 2011 09:39 tyCe wrote: Well, DotA is much worse as a spectator esport than SC2 so it should be fine. About the playerbase, I'd expect a lot of SC2 players to play DotA2 when it first comes out, at least initially. How is it worse as a spectator experience? It has an established scene in China and does get viewers even on joindota / dota commentaries, and the dota 2 tournament was rather exciting (more exciting to me than any sc2 I've seen.) It has inbuilt DOTA TV, more replay options/support, and more developer support for tournaments (world championships) | ||
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LuckyFool
United States9015 Posts
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supernovamaniac
United States3046 Posts
On September 02 2011 09:42 MERLIN. wrote: lets remember where BW was after 1 year... Playing on pingball tables for its first televised lan : P Fixed. Know your stuff before making comments like that. Korea had many offline tourneys that weren't broadcasted on Television for obvious reasons (no such word as ESPORTS, nor internet broadcasting). If anything, SC2 needs more work given the resources and materials that people can access today, compared to the old days. Look at the production value of OSL/Proleague/MSL and GSL. While OSL/Proleague/MSL has amazing production team that brings interesting intros and graphics, I fail to see such innovation in GSL production. The only thing interesting was the 'player-announcement' at the beginning of the match, some which seemed like 'oh hey, look here. boobs' | ||
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Saechiis
Netherlands4989 Posts
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Dusty
United States3359 Posts
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hyptonic
2155 Posts
On September 02 2011 09:39 tyCe wrote: Well, DotA is much worse as a spectator esport than SC2 so it should be fine. About the playerbase, I'd expect a lot of SC2 players to play DotA2 when it first comes out, at least initially. mobas get more viewers than SC2 already. dota2 got 1.6m~ lol got 200k~ even hon gets 25k sometimes (more than ipl2 and dreamhack) one lol streamer averages 12000 viewers a day. i find it much more entertaining spectating than sc2 tbh. | ||
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esla_sol
United States756 Posts
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koreasilver
9109 Posts
tl;dr: no, this is dumb. | ||
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nttea
Sweden4353 Posts
 if dota2 will truly be more entertaining to watch than starcraft2 then it's a good thing, i love both games. | ||
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CharlieBrownsc
Canada598 Posts
Vanilla-map MOBA can only last so long | ||
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nekuodah
England2409 Posts
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lbmaian
United States689 Posts
I enjoy watching BW/SC2 more than LoL/HoN, but I can get the appeal of LoL/HoN. I just find that the endings of DoTA-like games to far less climactic - there's less tension than in BW/SC2. | ||
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DomiNater
United States527 Posts
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gds
Iceland1391 Posts
I've never saw that game (maybe few seconds here and there), know almsot nothing about it and i want to deflower my eyes with something good if possible. | ||
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Chairman Ray
United States11903 Posts
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jdseemoreglass
United States3773 Posts
You can give stats if you want, I'm just saying from personal experience the game is really nonexistent for me. | ||
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Hipsv
135 Posts
On September 02 2011 09:47 hyptonic wrote: mobas get more viewers than SC2 already. dota2 got 1.6m~ lol got 200k~ even hon gets 25k sometimes (more than ipl2 and dreamhack) one lol streamer averages 12000 viewers a day. i find it much more entertaining spectating than sc2 tbh. Its a difference of opinions, If you had no idea what either one was about, I figure it would be significantly easier to understand what SC2 was about. MOBA's are complicated team games that rely on a bunch of different mechanics. For example someone who doesn't know might see a tank character with a 2/10/20 record in a game and think they are garbage when they are dying a lot even though they are doing amazing and winning the game for their team, Where as if someone is losing their bases its pretty obvious that they are losing in sc2. | ||
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dacthehork
United States2000 Posts
On September 02 2011 10:01 gds wrote: Can someone advice me a good VOD of DOTA2 or DOTA to watch please, like a final of a big event or something quite spectacular? I've never saw that game (maybe few seconds here and there), know almsot nothing about it and i want to deflower my eyes with something good if possible. watch in HD | ||
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Oreo7
United States1647 Posts
I also don't think dota games can draw new casual viewers well at all, I think sc2 is funner to watch if you're an utter noob. I also think sc2 is at the same time the deeper game and is very rewarding the more skill you have so yeah. Dota 2 got 1.6m because it was the first time it was unveiled, LoL because of riot promotion and because it's F2P. | ||
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jimbob615
Uruguay455 Posts
sc2 has potential to be big because even a complete noob can relate to big armies colliding with eachother and watching huge battles. its like watching a war. dota is just fantasy crap which people cannot relate to at all without being a hardcore player. | ||
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Engore
United States1916 Posts
On September 02 2011 09:47 hyptonic wrote: mobas get more viewers than SC2 already. dota2 got 1.6m~ lol got 200k~ even hon gets 25k sometimes (more than ipl2 and dreamhack) one lol streamer averages 12000 viewers a day. i find it much more entertaining spectating than sc2 tbh. That's also the first dota 2 tournament ever. LoL doesn't have widely streamed tournaments nor does HoN. While sc2 has tons of content everywhere. Small cups every week/weekend, major tournaments at least twice a month and tons of high level daily streamers. I can't see Dota 2 harping on sc2 that much. Obviously i don't know anything about the community in dota or dota 2 but they don't have Day[9] so gg no re. | ||
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dacthehork
United States2000 Posts
On September 02 2011 10:45 Engore wrote: That's also the first dota 2 tournament ever. LoL doesn't have widely streamed tournaments nor does HoN. While sc2 has tons of content everywhere. Small cups every week/weekend, major tournaments at least twice a month and tons of high level daily streamers. I can't see Dota 2 harping on sc2 that much. Obviously i don't know anything about the community in dota or dota 2 but they don't have Day[9] so gg no re. well the numbers are not confirmed, and valve is having a hard time even calculating it. It could have been as high as 4 million.. They set up 3 servers in China alone to stream it out. | ||
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windsupernova
Mexico5280 Posts
This is like asking if SC2 will survive MvC3 AE. Its an useless question. | ||
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Sandro
897 Posts
Maybe you should just stick to the DOTA forum OP. | ||
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Talin
Montenegro10532 Posts
I'd prefer SC2 having a niche dedicated fanbase, just enough for it to be sustainable as an esport, at least in Korea. It's much more enjoyable being a part of such a community than what it is (becoming) now. Seriously fuck mass popularity. Nothing good ever came out of it. | ||
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Geovu
Estonia1344 Posts
My Experience: -Nearly 10 minutes selecting characters -Horrible mics for the casters, the clipping hurt my ears so bad I have to turn the volume way down to the point where I can't hear anything. -Virtually no team colors, can't tell wtf is going on in battles b/c of thiss -The way everyone moves their characters just pisses me off. It's everyone is a mentally retarded old guy on speed walking in circles, back and forth, jerking around everywhere. -The map is too big to tell what is fucking going on -It is over a fucking hour long. And not in a good way, like Rain vs Boxer. If that's the best you can do then you have confirmed my suspicion: The game is utter shit to watch. On a different note tho: How/why are the graphics so cool looking? I thought dota ran through Warcraft III, which obviously has fairly dated graphics and no widescreen support. I'm a noob, don't laugh at me :o | ||
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dotamaster
104 Posts
Heroes of Newerth, League of Legends and all other games in the Dota genre on the other hand... | ||
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koreasilver
9109 Posts
On September 02 2011 11:12 Geovu wrote: My Experience: -Nearly 10 minutes selecting characters -Horrible mics for the casters, the clipping hurt my ears so bad I have to turn the volume way down to the point where I can't hear anything. -Virtually no team colors, can't tell wtf is going on in battles b/c of thiss -The way everyone moves their characters just pisses me off. It's everyone is a mentally retarded old guy on speed walking in circles, back and forth, jerking around everywhere. -The map is too big to tell what is fucking going on -It is over a fucking hour long. And not in a good way, like Rain vs Boxer. If that's the best you can do then you have confirmed my suspicion: The game is utter shit to watch. On a different note tho: How/why are the graphics so cool looking? I thought dota ran through Warcraft III, which obviously has fairly dated graphics and no widescreen support. I'm a noob, don't laugh at me :o People that have never played BW or SC2 would think the exact same goddamned thing as you are. Just because you don't understand the game doesn't mean it's "shit to watch". Apparently hundreds of thousands of people disagree with you. Why are there so much mindless posts in the forums lately? | ||
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TerraTron
Canada137 Posts
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Mobius_1
United Kingdom2763 Posts
In SC2. it's 3 races, >15 units each, sure their are subtleties that most won't understand but it's easier to understand flamethrower dune buggies burning little dogs than Dota. Also, I've invested so much of my time into SC2 I'm not likely to jump ship (doubtful I'll have time to watch both), and many TL'er I feel are the same way. But I nevertheless hope Dota 2 develops a big following, for ESPORTS. That said, I don't see MOBA in ESPORTS, only RTS. | ||
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MrDonkeyBong
Canada103 Posts
On September 02 2011 10:05 jdseemoreglass wrote: I've never even played or seen dota in my life, and I'm a huge gamer. Actually, I don't know any other gamers who even play the game... So at this time it's impossible for me to consider it competition with SC2. You can give stats if you want, I'm just saying from personal experience the game is really nonexistent for me. Yeah this is pretty much the deal for me as well SC2 will do fine | ||
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Stratos_speAr
United States6959 Posts
On September 02 2011 11:12 Geovu wrote: My Experience: -Nearly 10 minutes selecting characters -Horrible mics for the casters, the clipping hurt my ears so bad I have to turn the volume way down to the point where I can't hear anything. -Virtually no team colors, can't tell wtf is going on in battles b/c of thiss -The way everyone moves their characters just pisses me off. It's everyone is a mentally retarded old guy on speed walking in circles, back and forth, jerking around everywhere. -The map is too big to tell what is fucking going on -It is over a fucking hour long. And not in a good way, like Rain vs Boxer. If that's the best you can do then you have confirmed my suspicion: The game is utter shit to watch. On a different note tho: How/why are the graphics so cool looking? I thought dota ran through Warcraft III, which obviously has fairly dated graphics and no widescreen support. I'm a noob, don't laugh at me :o You could come up with very similar complaints about SC2. You're blatant bias obviously had you against DotA from the beginning. | ||
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Hakker
United States1360 Posts
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John Madden
American Samoa894 Posts
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Rasun
United States787 Posts
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xVoiid
Canada199 Posts
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Mobius_1
United Kingdom2763 Posts
On September 02 2011 12:33 Hakker wrote: Dota2 will probably overtake SC2 in china philipines brazil etc. where dota/LoL is already big. Dota really never was an esport anywhere else except for sweden maybe, even then it was less popular than CS and the proscene was virtually nonexistent in NA/KR I think that will depend a lot on how accessible Dota2 is to play at internet cafes and with friends. That is one of the faults of SC2, being that it is not a game you can just go to a PC bang and play. You need a Bnet account, pay for time, and same with friends you want to play with. WC3 Dota is something that's been copied everywhere in China and at every PC bang, while LoL is free and SCBW essentially so as well. | ||
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Zlasher
United States9129 Posts
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PetitCrabe
Canada410 Posts
Although I hope DOTA2 will do great as an esport, I don't think it will because I can see how boring it can be to watch. Unless you have regularly played most heroes and used most items, it can be overwhelming. People in this thread said it quite well, SC2 is 3 races with about less then 15 units each. For an amateur, it`s easy to see that red army is kicking blue army`s ass. I hope in DOTA2, the commentators will take more time to explain the builds and strategies. I hope they say stuff like ``This hero is getting a perseverance for the hp/mana regen but can later transition into a battlefury or linken sphere'' In the tourny, they didnt say much. Whether DOTA2 becomes a great esport or not, it doesn't matter for me becasuse I know im going to have a blast playing it just as im having fun playing TF2 casually. | ||
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Sotamursu
Finland612 Posts
DotA isn't really noob friendly as most people know. The same also applies to casts. Most people who watch DotA have played it quite a bit so the casters won't explain basic stuff. Maybe if there's a caster like husky for dota2, people will change from sc2. | ||
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dotamaster
104 Posts
But as a spectator sport, it does have suffer a "watchability" problem. How can Valve make up for it? Make the game more accessible than Warcraft 3 / Starcraft 2. While Starcraft 2 is easy to learn and hard to master. DotA is quite hard to get into. It takes months for a person to get decent. (Need to know more than a hundred units, over 400 abilities, dozens of items, different builds, etc.) | ||
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Hakker
United States1360 Posts
On September 02 2011 15:46 dotamaster wrote: Dota can be extremely fun to play. But as a spectator sport, it does have suffer a "watchability" problem. How can Valve make up for it? Make the game more accessible than Warcraft 3 / Starcraft 2. While Starcraft 2 is easy to learn and hard to master. DotA is quite hard to get into. It takes months for a person to get decent. (Need to know more than a hundred units, over 400 abilities, dozens of items, different builds, etc.) What do you mean by more accessible? For example, LoL is by far more accessible to new players than Dora/hon, but at the same time most hardcore players hate it for that fact alone. | ||
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Apex
United States7227 Posts
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Highways
Australia6098 Posts
Not a big Dota fan, but the caster at the first Dota 2 tournament was insane! Does anyone know his name? | ||
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zul
Germany5427 Posts
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Venus.exe
United States285 Posts
meh. I'll watch both if I liked Dota2 also | ||
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marttorn
Norway5211 Posts
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zeru
8156 Posts
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Grettin
42381 Posts
On September 02 2011 18:43 zeru wrote: I think you are talking about tobi-wan, almost a bit korean style casting, where you can actually hear the real excitement in his voice. I agree. First time ever i had the feeling that i have when i'm watching broodwar with korean commentators. To some it might be irritating but i like it. But no, DOTA 2 won't "kill" SC2. Two totally different games. I love both games though, and i will be following both. | ||
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lozarian
United Kingdom1043 Posts
On September 02 2011 10:41 jimbob615 wrote: dota is so boring to watch as a neutral... it is already dead. its like cs 1.6. i'll admit i loved watching cs 1.6 back in the day, but its because i played. to a neutral its boring as hell. same as this game. sc2 has potential to be big because even a complete noob can relate to big armies colliding with eachother and watching huge battles. its like watching a war. dota is just fantasy crap which people cannot relate to at all without being a hardcore player. sc is so boring to watch as a neutral.. i'll admit i loved watching sc back in the day, but its because i played. to a neutral its boring as hell. same as this game. dota2 has potential to be big because even a complete noob can relate to heroes colliding with each other and watching one on one combat. its like watching wrestling. sc is just sci-fi crap which people cannot relate to at all without being a hardcore player None of what you said is actually relevant to dota. Maybe if you cited difficulty in understanding what's going on, what heroes do, why people are or aren't pushing, I'd get behind it. I find starcraft boring as hell to watch, because I don't understand it well enough. I can appreciate the clever maneouvers, but I don't get any of the bigger issues. Watch a stream and ask questions, or an actually decent commentator. | ||
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KlaCkoN
Sweden1661 Posts
From personal experience, the acquaintancies that normally play wow or consoles or portal etc that picked up starcraft 2 because it was the newest blizzard game (the types of people that are making s2 so massive at the moment) they are all planning on switching to dota2 the second it´s released. But sc2 was never going to sustain the huge mainstream following it has right now anyway, bw too was huuge for a year or three after it´s release before it started to die down a bit as people moved on to different games, the same will happen to sc2 and dota2 will speed up that process. The people remaining will be the slightly more competetive people who really like the game for the game itself and not because it´s a shiny new blizzard game. | ||
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Denzil
United Kingdom4193 Posts
If so I doubt it'll hurt SC too much maybe the growing China community takes a hit. | ||
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Thrill
2599 Posts
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CBNMystery
Canada25 Posts
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ssi.bal-listic
United States568 Posts
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Tomfour
United States173 Posts
The thing about Dota 2 vs SC2 is that Dota2, I'm assuming will be like the original Dota. What I mean by that is that it will still be very difficult to play, and will in a certain degree be like how if SC2 was harder to play like BW, which SC2 isn't. So the thing that's nice about SC2 is it's extremely easy to follow and play from a casual standpoint. I've watched some of the Dota2 tournaments, and I've been very impressed. The only thing I can say is that it's kind of hard to follow, and the games are much much longer. I know people have done analysis of BW game length vs SC2, but an hour game length for Dota2 is very common. I'm not sure that's very good for a competitive scene because people just straight up can't and won't devote that much time to it on as regular of a basis as they do for SC2, where an entire series will probably be over in that time. Just the length of games makes it so hard for it to be a competitive game. Although I didn't watch the LoL stream at the past MLG, I imagine live tournaments won't be able to be much bigger(4 teams I think it was) than that just do to how long games are. So people will definitely play it, myself included, but the people who are into SC2 right now aren't going to stop watching and give up SC2 for it. | ||
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