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No, those are people not learning from their mistakes. If you take something from every loss, it's extremely hard to be in plat after 4000 games. Just go through the replay, look where your first major mistake was, write it down/tell it to yourself/make sure you note that it happened, and then if you later on do the same mistake, you will see that you've already written it down, or that you've already told yourself about it and then you'll feel stupid and are much less likely to do the same mistake again, keep doing this and you'll eventually stop doing that mistake.
If you feel like you're forgetting everything, you could try to set up some kind of a system, like after you inject your main hatch you always check your supply and then your creep tumors, if you put that chain of action in your head on a "timer" you only have to keep track of 1 thing instead of many.
One silly problem I realized I was doing just recently, was when I did my inject rotation, I just did it without even looking at the timers, and then at a random time I would come back and do it again which made me miss a lot of injects. Now I actually make sure that I look at the timers when I move my camera to my hatcheries, so I know exactly when to return instead of randomly having to return. I went from autopiloting that action to thinking about it, and thinking about shit is good.
In other words, it's possible to play an unlimited amount of games without learning anything whatsoever if you autopilot and refuse to learn from your mistakes.
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Just like the guys before me said, if you 'know' how to do stuff (and what you 'know' may be different from all that you 'need to know') and you're still getting your ass whupped, you're not used to executing it properly offhand. Your advanced knowledge means fucking nothing - NOTHING if you can't efficiently carry out simple stuff that wins against these shitty players that you mentioned, the shitty strategies against which you seem to be struggling against although you know the counters. Again, re-emphasis on the fact that you're simply making mistakes in execution or that you don't actually know every fucking thing in the game.
Oh and don't brag about knowing every fucking thing in the game. Knowing timings offhand + numbers per base = / = knowing everything, not to mention the near-instinctive 'common sense' stuff that you get from soaking in games. If you're losing a lot more games than you should, even if you make mistakes in your execution, you still obviously have some gaps in your knowledge that prevents you from not losing games. Seriously do NOT make statements like that in your first paragraph because it ticks people [including yourself] off and caps your skill in your mind. G_____G.
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Nah, I'm not posting replays, I know every thing I'm supposed to do and still cant get it right on the game. Do you get nervous while laddering? Perhaps you may want to change your mindset or approach to this game. It's pretty cliche to say suggest not worrying about your ladder rank, but really, try playing without that on your mind. I play a lot worse when I have this eagerness like "ok i need to win, need to end the game now" type of thing going.
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quit zerg do equally bad or worse as T or P then go back to zerg and repeat XD
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I'm plat. I know every fucking thing on this game.
Nah, I'm not posting replays, I know every thing I'm supposed to do and still cant get it right on the game.
This is all so deluded. People that make excuses like this go nowhere, regardless of what it might be.
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On August 27 2011 12:41 koreasilver wrote:Show nested quote +Nah, I'm not posting replays, I know every thing I'm supposed to do and still cant get it right on the game. This is all so deluded. People that make excuses like this go nowhere, regardless of what it might be.
Indeed. There actually is no such thing as "Oh I have excellent game knowledge, but I can't keep up with mechanics/apm. I'm strategically masters but only platinum in skill." This is something I've heard Tastosis disapprove of.
So why is some kid you coached masters now? It was probably helped by your coaching, but that's not it entirely. Kids have more free time to devote to this game. I have a friend who's played at least 2 hours a day ever since SC2 came out in July 27, even during exam weeks. He's a very high masters/GM now. Younger people also pick up new skills very very quickly.
Even if you practice that much during the day though, you still have to look at replays. I'm still having so much trouble with this. My excuse is always "ehhh that game was dumb, so it doesn't count." Right now, I'm stagnating too =(
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On August 27 2011 09:56 DW-Unrec wrote:
So, do you need to watch my replays to see how bad I am? Nah, I'm not posting replays, I know every thing I'm supposed to do and still cant get it right on the game.
Accept the fact that you actually now nothing and you still have a lot to learn. Then try to play.
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If you don't think practice will help you improve I'd recommend you read the book "Outliers" and pay particular attention to the chapter regarding the 10,000 hour rule.
Every individual has the same potential, and nobody fulfills the potential without progressively moving towards the fulfillment of a worthy ideal. The only difference from one individual to another individual are habits. There are also genetic differences, however genetic differences in most cases are negligible compared to habitual differences. For instance, professional athletes and Starcraft players have different habit patterns than typical athletes and Starcraft players. If typical athletes and Starcraft players began to think, feel, and act like the professionals, they would see significant improvements in their play. The potential to where they can get their play is unlimited, as its a never ending process to achieve perfection in anything. Your current practice regiment is inefficient, and that's why you're not seeing the results you want. You are not in the habit of thinking, feeling, and acting like a professional Starcraft 2 player. That is precisely why you are not improving. If you change the habits, you will begin improving.
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Sounds like you have the problem almost everybody does including some/most masters. All your buildings/drones/units are late after you hit 20 supply. If you really do have such a strong understanding of the game though... switch to T or P. I think the difference of the race itself might really help you out.
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On August 27 2011 10:24 DW-Unrec wrote:For me "play for fun" is getting into masters/GM, winning money from small cups. I cant do either  I hate pros, they can practice with someone that is really good. How am I supposed to be as good as they are If my practice partners spam 2v2s and customs all day long? My apm is ok, I never get above 10 larva when playing on 2 base. I know what I do wrong, but I forget EVERYTHING while I'm playing. This is something no guides on TL can help me. Every time I see a strategy topic I say "oh, that's old. I already knew that.". Practicing doesnt help me either. The biggest proof that talent DOES exist is: people with 2000+ ladder wins that's still on plat.
First off, yes of course talent exists and I'd be surprised if anyone would debate you on this. Now some people might see talent as the ability to practice and learn efficiently from your practice but in many ways this is a sort of talent.
All that said, I don't think that the talent level for anyone lies at getting stuck in platinum. So, talent isn't the issue, perhaps you have to work harder or put in more time than someone else to reach the same goals because they just learn faster or are much more skilled at practicing than you. As a runner this is something you learn pretty quick: some people train for 5 years just to barely crack a 5:30 mile, others go out the first time they run and run sub 5. Accept it, make peace with it, move on.
Now, for the bolded part. It sounds like you have pinpointed your problem, which is good. Now we can go to work on fixing it. You're not clear on exactly what you forget....build orders? macro? proper responses? Once you have figured out something you do wrong, lets say its macro, you need to go play and focus on that ONE thing. If it's a macro thing all you would be doing is making sure your producing workers, expanding correctly, avoiding supply cap, and spending money. If you're getting attack and can't micro...oh well. After some games macro will start to become nothing more than background noise, an automatic habit if you will, and you'll start finding gaps in which you can scout, position army, etc.
When you go to play you can't just come in with the idea of "play better". You need to pick out your weakness, and give complete focus to that. This is especially true in your case, since it seems that if you give just mild emphasis you still forget. So focus on one problem at a time to the exclusion of other things until it becomes habit. Then move onto the next one.
However, since you're platinum it's a certainty that you either macro bad, execute builds poorly, or some combination of the two. That or you just do all-ins and have awful micro. People have made it into diamond/masters doing nothing but massing and A-moving stalkers at opponents, zero micro, zero adaptation, etc.
Posting a few replays would obviously be helpful since it would allow us to see exactly what kinds of mistakes your making, and try to identify some key patterns to your mistakes so you can have some good focal points of what to work on.
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I saw instantly that you don't have an understanding of the game when I read your examples of what you think understanding entails.
Here's something you should take to heart:
DETERMINATION SURPASSES TALENT
To succeed, you need to be determined. Instead of being angry, be determined. To be skilled means being determined, determined to practice and improve your skill.
Jinro was relatively terrible at starcraft when he first started, now he's made it to Code S. It's not because he has some magical talent at the game, because he certainly wasn't very skilled when BW was starting out. He's good now because he put hard work and effort into improving.
(of course having talent certainly will help give direction to your practice)
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Nah, I'm not posting replays, I know every thing I'm supposed to do and still cant get it right on the game.
Quit QQing and go practice nah, i'm not improving. I wont practice if I dont see progress. I lose to a fucking 15 years old kid.
WTF.
Missed this the first time. Let's face it, if you're practicing and not getting better; your practicing poorly and this really makes you just sound angry, whiny, and pissed.
If you know "everything" about the game then surely you know what your doing wrong. Therefore, it should be a fairly straightforward task to go practice and focus on eliminating what you do wrong.
If you're practicing and staying bad, your practice routine sucks. End of story. Might help us if you explain what exactly your doing when you practice, what your practice system is, and what you focus on while your practicing.
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On August 27 2011 10:24 DW-Unrec wrote:For me "play for fun" is getting into masters/GM, winning money from small cups. I cant do either I hate pros, they can practice with someone that is really good. How am I supposed to be as good as they are If my practice partners spam 2v2s and customs all day long? My apm is ok, I never get above 10 larva when playing on 2 base. I know what I do wrong, but I forget EVERYTHING while I'm playing. This is something no guides on TL can help me. Every time I see a strategy topic I say "oh, that's old. I already knew that.". Practicing doesnt help me either. The biggest proof that talent DOES exist is: people with 2000+ ladder wins that's still on plat.
It exists but it doesn't affect such a low level :p. How can you call your problem a lack of talent? The things you mentioned like remembering facts and timings takes 0 talent to apply to a game. You can know it but you have to actually consciously try to improve each individual timing as you play. You can't just read all about it then expect it to magically happen.
And I also don't know why you complain about practice partners...Wasn't your problem that you can't even beat a 15 year old that's in masters? What would more practice partners even accomplish if you can't even remember anything while you play a game?
The people with 2k wins and are still in plat are just practicing wrong, like you. They just play each game like a monkey and do trial and error until their brain subconsciously starts learning. Of course that's slow. If you actually TRY to improve during games instead of reading things and hoping you suddenly are able to do them in game, then you will not take thousands of games to get out of platinum.
What you are arguing is like saying it takes talent to graduate from university. Yea, there are extreme cases, but in general, everyone can do it with hard work. If you just take classes and fail them repeatedly hoping you learn while you fail, then you will never get out. If you actually study, you can get through undergrad regardless of your intelligence or 'talent'.
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So how do I practice right?
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On August 27 2011 23:06 DW-Unrec wrote:
So how do I practice right?
1. Show us your replays so we can tell you.
2. Get a coach
3. Stop being so whiny about shit and accept that you have a lot to learn
4. Physical Notes by your desk helps:
(ie. timings, counters, dont forget evo chamber at 6:30 etc.)
5. Analyze your replays
6. Analyze your replays
7. Analyze your replays
8. Analyze your replays
9. Analyze your replays
10. Analyze your replays
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On August 27 2011 23:06 DW-Unrec wrote:
So how do I practice right?
There isn't a right way to practice. If there was a right way to practice, that would mean there wouldn't be a better way. However, no matter who's practice regiment you analyze you will always find there is a better way to practice.
Moreover, I wouldn't recommend using these Forums or Liquipedia for strategic help. AT least not in the long term. There is such a wide skill gap and strategical gap separating professional players and even foreign professionals, let alone the general Teamliquid community. Sitting there and analyzing replays all day won't make you better, unless you know what to analyze. And if you need to go back and analyze replays to identify mistakes, you probably shouldn't be playing against players (I'd recommend practicing your builds against either the AI or against no opponent prior to using them against real players). Once you learn the build to where they're habitual its important you figure out why you're doing everything in your build.
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On August 27 2011 23:06 DW-Unrec wrote:
So how do I practice right?
As I was talking about above, especially if you have glaring errors, one of the best things you can do is focus on small, specific things. For instance, you might play a game focusing on making sure workers are being produced at all times. That is your only focus. If you can manage to do some other stuff, great; but if all you can do is make workers thats fine.
It's really hard to get better if your just trying to "play better" or "macro better". Goals like these are too broad, and it's far too difficult to do all the things that are encompassed by "play better".
Find glaring problem -> understand why it occurs -> fix the problem
Take one thing, fix it. Then move onto the next. Once the glaring holes are gone you can start going to replays and looking for the little things and patterns of mistakes you make to find more stuff to work on.
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On August 27 2011 09:56 DW-Unrec wrote:
Hi
This is a rage/help/question topic.
I'm plat. I know every fucking thing on this game. I know when I should drop gas depending on the strat on all 3 races. I know how many productions facilitys X bases can support. I know when to tech, I know why pro makes Y decision.
But i'm still on plat and still lose to fucking shitty players. I coached a 15 year old kid to play this game. He's on masters now.
I've been practicing 4 weeks non-stop. The kid stopped playing for 2 months. When he came back to this fucking game, he is still on masters and still fucking beat me.
That's it: I'm quitting zerg or I'm quitting starcraft.
Maybe I don't have talent. I was not supposed to be pro, maybe I'm supposed to be just a fun boy that watches streams.
Practice DOES NOT makes perfection. Talent does.
So...
-Quit SC
-Quit Zerg
-Quit QQing and go practice nah, i'm not improving. I wont practice if I dont see progress. I lose to a fucking 15 years old kid.
Which one?
So, do you need to watch my replays to see how bad I am? Nah, I'm not posting replays, I know every thing I'm supposed to do and still cant get it right on the game.
Quit man, at least for a while. It doesn't sound like you're having much fun
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On August 27 2011 10:02 Plexa wrote:
What is your APM?
I'm not sure that makes much difference. I'm mid-lvl Master Z and I play with 75 apm avg in long games lol. You can usually win simply with effective scouting and strategy combined with solid build order knowledge/game sense. Mechanics really don't come into play until GM on USA server imo.
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Maybe you don't actually know as much as you think you do 
More often than not this is the case. Perhaps you lose games by awful decision making, and I think without replays, we can't really tell you why you lose to these awful players.
Another thing to realize is that, while you may understand the high level metagame, you're not high level by any means, nor are the people you queue against. What this means is, you're doing things that should work at high level, but at low level people do herp derp doo doo. And if you're playing a different metagame you will just lose.
I think replays would help this thread a lot, unless your point is just to bitch and moan with an elitest attitude.
On August 28 2011 03:00 StorkHwaiting wrote:I'm not sure that makes much difference. I'm mid-lvl Master Z and I play with 75 apm avg in long games lol. You can usually win simply with effective scouting and strategy combined with solid build order knowledge/game sense. Mechanics really don't come into play until GM on USA server imo.
Mechanics actually do make a very big difference, at all levels.
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EPT
