• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 10:40
CEST 16:40
KST 23:40
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
BGE Stara Zagora 2025: Info & Preview18Code S RO12 Preview: GuMiho, Bunny, SHIN, ByuN3The Memories We Share - Facing the Final(?) GSL46Code S RO12 Preview: Cure, Zoun, Solar, Creator4[ASL19] Finals Preview: Daunting Task30
Community News
[BSL20] ProLeague: Bracket Stage & Dates1GSL Ro4 and Finals moved to Sunday June 15th11Weekly Cups (May 27-June 1): ByuN goes back-to-back0EWC 2025 Regional Qualifier Results26Code S RO12 Results + RO8 Groups (2025 Season 2)3
StarCraft 2
General
Jim claims he and Firefly were involved in match-fixing Magnus Carlsen and Fabi review Clem's chess game. BGE Stara Zagora 2025: Info & Preview GSL Ro4 and Finals moved to Sunday June 15th Serious Question: Mech
Tourneys
SOOPer7s Showmatches 2025 Bellum Gens Elite: Stara Zagora 2025 Cheeseadelphia 2025 - Open Bracket LAN! $25,000+ WardiTV 2025 Series Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament
Strategy
[G] Darkgrid Layout Simple Questions Simple Answers [G] PvT Cheese: 13 Gate Proxy Robo
Custom Maps
[UMS] Zillion Zerglings
External Content
Mutation # 476 Charnel House Mutation # 475 Hard Target Mutation # 474 Futile Resistance Mutation # 473 Cold is the Void
Brood War
General
[BSL20] ProLeague: Bracket Stage & Dates I made an ASL quiz BW General Discussion Will foreigners ever be able to challenge Koreans? FlaSh Witnesses SCV Pull Off the Impossible vs Shu
Tourneys
[ASL19] Grand Finals [Megathread] Daily Proleagues Small VOD Thread 2.0 [BSL20] GosuLeague RO16 - Tue & Wed 20:00+CET
Strategy
I am doing this better than progamers do. [G] How to get started on ladder as a new Z player
Other Games
General Games
Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Nintendo Switch Thread Monster Hunter Wilds Path of Exile Mechabellum
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
LiquidLegends to reintegrate into TL.net
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers
Hearthstone
Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
Vanilla Mini Mafia TL Mafia Community Thread TL Mafia Plays: Diplomacy TL Mafia: Generative Agents Showdown Survivor II: The Amazon
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Russo-Ukrainian War Thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine Vape Nation Thread European Politico-economics QA Mega-thread
Fan Clubs
Maru Fan Club Serral Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
Korean Music Discussion [Manga] One Piece
Sports
2024 - 2025 Football Thread Formula 1 Discussion NHL Playoffs 2024
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread Cleaning My Mechanical Keyboard
TL Community
The Automated Ban List
Blogs
Heero Yuy & the Tax…
KrillinFromwales
Research study on team perfo…
TrAiDoS
I was completely wrong ab…
jameswatts
Need Your Help/Advice
Glider
Trip to the Zoo
micronesia
Poker
Nebuchad
Info SLEgma_12
SLEgma_12
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 16659 users

TvP: Terrible vs Protoss [Epilogue]

Blogs > Blazinghand
Post a Reply
Blazinghand *
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States25550 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-17 11:36:20
August 17 2011 11:31 GMT
#1
Those of you who were able to chew through the tome that was my last blog post will know that I left off with

[image loading]
Chapter 3: Diamonds Are Forever
+ Show Spoiler [Last time on Terrible vs Protoss...] +
One thing that I was quick to learn was that just within Diamond League there were more tiers of skill than in all the rest of the leagues combined. Remember that at this time there was no Master or Grand Master league, and even presently there are vast gulfs in skill within both Master League and Diamond League. At this time, saying "I'm in Diamond League" narrowed down how skilled you were only marginally more than "I ladder" because of how diverse it was.

Which is why I wasn't taken entirely by surprise when, after a couple months in diamond league, my Marine Tank Banshee all-in stopped working. It wasn't even a matter of whether or not it dealt damage-- it was a matter of whether or not it dealt ENOUGH damage. With probe pulling, as long as he had a probe count similar to my scv count when the dust settled, he'd be ok; he could double-produce probes and I would be down an expansion. I started facing opponents who would get out immortals and zealots, both of which are good. I fought several fast expoers who used flanks to prevent me from kiting.

The 1 base all-in wasn't realistic any more. Either I was facing better players, or the players i was facing had gotten better at dealing with it. There were no more cheeses, no more build order wins, and no more timing attacks left-- or if there were, I was too unskilled to find and use them. I could go no farther; these people were just better than me, and by enough that my gimmicks and timings could no longer break them. There was no hope.

[image loading]
This is basically me when I realized that my all-in no longer worked.

I could stop here, though: I'd achieved my goal. I was in the highest division across the servers. I was Diamond. I made it. I basically stopped laddering. I played 1-2 ladder games a week, and played customs and 1v1 obs games with my friends. Whenever someone asked, I was Rank 90 Diamond, but really it was just because my bonus pool was huge because I didn't play much, if I had all my bonus pool I'd be near the top, right guys?

I didn't get in through skill, or micro, or macro (though I had some of those traits). I got in because I found a timing window to jump through. I always felt illegitimate among other diamond players, like a cheeser among the greats, an outsider among good mates. They didn't jump through a timing window; they walked through the front door of mechanics, macro and micro. I had gotten my little Diamond emblem, but for what? I was still a noob. My victory was empty. If at that point, I had been still in Plat, I'm not sure I would have been able to get back into Diamond.

And as though Blizzard could sense my unease, as though they knew my secret shame, they took from me that which I desired:

[image loading]
A New Challenger Approaches!


In one brutalizing stroke the system was vindicated and I was indited for my crimes: I was not good enough to be in the top league, not even close. In Season 2, I put in a cursory effort to get into Master League, but there was no way I'd actually make it. I had to learn how to play standard in TvP, and improve my macro and micro until I could win legitimately, but I was not up to the challenge. For most of Season 2, I didn't ladder.

But I stop playing, either... I kept on trying in customs. I tried going for bio mech TvP, ghost-mech, big air, you name it, if it wasn't standard, I tried it with my friends, and got it to almost semi work. Eventually, I went for fast expand into MMM+VG, the gold standard of TvP. Where before I was listlessly drifting at the bottom of Diamond League, the introduction of Master League had given me new purpose-- I needed to get into Master league and listlessly drift at the bottom of THAT league

I needed to improve. Actually improve. I learned how to fast expand, how to pressure, how to scout. I practiced all my matchups, and worked on mechanics and basic build orders. By the final weeks of Season 2, as I returned to the ladder with a new toolbox of standard builds, a toolbox built on a foundation of solid mechanics, walls made out of improved macro, (bear with me, here) and with a handle made out of good game sense, I found I was winning again. TvP was no longer my strongest matchup, though; hundreds of games played learning the standard TvZ and TvT had made me much better, but having only recently begun my foray into standard TvP, I was struggling.

But I am not giving up. Maybe Diamonds are not forever; maybe I have a shot at Master League.


And so in Season 3 I plunged into that purgatory that is the Diamond Ladder on North America. Void Rays, DTs, 4gates, Blink Stalkers all haunted my dreams. Tank lines stretched across my subconscious, as vikings on each side stared each other cold-war style. Thors and marines clawed at my unrealistic TvZ strategies, until at last I was given the greatest ladder motivation I could find:

Link: The 2nd King of Palantir Starcraft 2 Tournament
[image loading]

Located in sunny Palo Alto, right near my home, this tournament meant a cool and easy way to play against other players, relax for a Saturday, and meet Sean Plott (Day[9]). I was hoping to do well in this tournament, and it had been quite a while since I had last gotten coached, so got back in touch with my coach of choice, sPsDebo, and hired him to coach me for an hour. I'd last called on his coaching during my dark epoch spent in gold league, and although it was useful then to an unskilled Terran, it would be indispensable now that I was better.

Debo is a lot of things; he is master league Terran, high quality streamer, and a teller of great jokes. He's also a good friend, and seeing an old student looking for help leading up to a tournament, he offered me some extra coaching. I'd have to pump out about 10 ladder games a day and send them his way, and he'd give me the kind of in-depth help that would make the difference between a loss and a win.

We began reviewing my replays. He'd point out flaws in my macro and build orders, talked about nonstandard play against Protoss and Zerg and its strengths and weaknesses, and generally just provided an extra set of eyes on my play that 1) were fresh and saw errors that i had subconsciously come to accept and 2) played high Master Terran.

He told me to produce a certain number of replays per day for him to look at. By Saturday, I'd sent him about 20 replays and we'd gone over them (not all of them, just some examples; he also showed me some of his). By Monday, I'd sent him and reviewed jointly replay packs containing 40 replays. I pressed onwards into the darkness of the Diamond ladder, not just incorporating his advice, but really evaluating the advice of my practice partners, and critically thinking about what really goes wrong with my play in each game.

And then, suddenly, I was led out of the darkness and into the light. It was a TvZ like any other, I all-inned and won and suddenly realized I wasn't in kansas Diamond League any more.

What I saw:
[image loading]

How I looked:
[image loading] (I always look like this)

How I felt:
[image loading]


I don't even know how this fits into my TvP narrative. What I DO know is that I need sleep, and I can figure this out tomorrow. And that it's been a long time coming, and this just means I need to improve harder to gain more ranks.

Here's my stream from the time. I ladder for about two hours; my final game in Diamond League starts at about 1:54:00.
http://www.livestream.com/blazinghand/video?clipId=pla_01ce4cee-9492-4e55-936c-57b54c36fcfa


Thanks to Debo and Sandwhale for all their help. The journey continues!

Diamonds aren't forever, it seems.

****
When you stare into the iCCup, the iCCup stares back.
TL+ Member
FataLe
Profile Joined November 2010
New Zealand4492 Posts
August 17 2011 13:24 GMT
#2
Who are you?

This is amazing.
hi. big fan.
XiGua
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Sweden3085 Posts
August 17 2011 15:54 GMT
#3
Gj mate! I achieved the same thing just a few days before. But I didn't all in though
ლ(ಠ益ಠლ) APM, Why u make me spam?
Ravencruiser
Profile Blog Joined May 2011
Canada519 Posts
August 17 2011 16:02 GMT
#4
Things probably changed a bit from before, but I made Masters season 1, with my first ~100 games in SC2, with Terran.

The build? 1-2 reaper harass into cloaked banshees into 3 rax all-in.

Getting Masters with T is like getting Platinum with Z.

Sorry for raining down on your accomplishment^^
"Yah, free will is a bitch" - Drone
Blazinghand *
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States25550 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-17 16:45:39
August 17 2011 16:45 GMT
#5
"I don't always all-in, but when I do I all-in with scvs." <--- this needs to be a commercial

I actually feel kinda bad about my TvZ, mostly due to like, my difficulty fighting on more than 2 bases, I end up doing a 2 base all-in pretty often, if my 1-base push fails. This gets kinda shakey on long rush distance maps like cross spawns Tal'Darim, so I need to work on getting to 3 bases, and doing some sort of marine/tank medivac push using drops and a couple thors to ward off mutas. A 1- or 2-base marine/mech all-in I'm almost certain will stop working in short order in Master League.
When you stare into the iCCup, the iCCup stares back.
TL+ Member
Aletheia27
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
United States267 Posts
August 17 2011 17:22 GMT
#6
Congrats :D
I am that I am
-Aura-
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States209 Posts
August 17 2011 18:35 GMT
#7
Gratz yo.

You should have saved this for your 1000th post though. And by the way I'm in the same boat. High Diamond with my TvP keeping me from Masters. Any tips?
¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Liquid get more Terrans please...
Airact
Profile Joined April 2010
Finland366 Posts
August 17 2011 18:58 GMT
#8
On August 18 2011 03:35 -Aura- wrote:
Gratz yo.

You should have saved this for your 1000th post though. And by the way I'm in the same boat. High Diamond with my TvP keeping me from Masters. Any tips?

I personally felt my TvP improve the moment I switched from insane Marauder numbers to having 3 reactor rax 2 tech lab rax right after my 3rd and more Marine/Ghost/Viking/Medivac focus with some Marauders instead of ridiculous Marauder numbers.

The reason:
Marauders don't kill Zealot/Archon/Templar. They survive Storm much better, but the Protoss army outlasts you. Marine DPS is that much better if you have the upgrades needed.

Of course you can play heavier Marauders, but that's what helped me get better with TvP, to only having RIDICULOUSLY BAD(Like, Platinum level? Even lower than that?) TvZ while being almost undefeated in Diamond TvP and undefeated in Diamond TvT. I can blame that on the lack of Z practice partners tho.
jjhchsc2
Profile Joined December 2010
Korea (South)2393 Posts
August 17 2011 21:33 GMT
#9
woah inspiring.
5/5
Lee Ssang/ Lee Shin/ Kim Jung Woo/ Kim Min Chul/Jun Tae Yang/Park Soo Ho/Lee Jung Hoon/Choi Sung Hoon/ Moon Sung Won/Park Ji Soo/ Lee Ho Joon/ Jang Min Chul/ Kim Seung Chul/SaSe/IdrA/Ret Fighting! BW4Life
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Bellum Gens Elite
10:00
Stara Zagora 2025 Day 2
Spirit vs NitixLIVE!
FuturE vs TriGGeR
Gerald vs Krystianer
Lambo vs YoungYakov
Bellum Gens Elite1408
ComeBackTV 585
IndyStarCraft 280
TaKeTV 274
Rex171
3DClanTV 114
CosmosSc2 70
LiquipediaDiscussion
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
Bellum Gens Elite1408
IndyStarCraft 280
Rex 171
ProTech89
CosmosSc2 70
EnDerr 33
StarCraft: Brood War
Britney 39373
Sea 2991
Hyuk 1229
PianO 1136
ZerO 1002
EffOrt 951
BeSt 847
Mini 695
Stork 524
Light 439
[ Show more ]
Snow 405
hero 188
Rush 167
Dewaltoss 95
sSak 73
Pusan 66
ToSsGirL 62
Sacsri 56
Mind 54
Movie 53
firebathero 48
sorry 38
soO 35
Shinee 34
Noble 28
Backho 19
ajuk12(nOOB) 18
scan(afreeca) 14
Free 14
GoRush 13
Terrorterran 11
Yoon 11
ivOry 10
yabsab 9
Bale 6
Shine 1
Dota 2
Gorgc4374
qojqva2762
XcaliburYe447
420jenkins398
Fuzer 291
syndereN203
PGG 128
BabyKnight44
Counter-Strike
olofmeister2232
markeloff169
edward42
rGuardiaN16
Super Smash Bros
Mew2King93
Other Games
singsing2068
B2W.Neo905
FrodaN713
crisheroes452
DeMusliM407
Lowko291
ArmadaUGS107
Liquid`VortiX94
QueenE33
ZerO(Twitch)19
Has12
Organizations
Dota 2
PGL Dota 2 - Main Stream6813
PGL Dota 2 - Secondary Stream263
StarCraft: Brood War
Kim Chul Min (afreeca) 6
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 13 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
Dota 2
• C_a_k_e 3276
League of Legends
• Nemesis2836
• Jankos1361
Upcoming Events
Replay Cast
9h 20m
OSC
9h 20m
Bellum Gens Elite
19h 20m
WardiTV Invitational
23h 20m
BSL 2v2 ProLeague
1d 4h
Replay Cast
1d 9h
CranKy Ducklings
1d 19h
SC Evo League
1d 21h
Bellum Gens Elite
1d 21h
Fire Grow Cup
2 days
[ Show More ]
CSO Contender
2 days
BSL: ProLeague
2 days
StRyKeR vs MadiNho
Cross vs UltrA
TT1 vs JDConan
Bonyth vs Sziky
Replay Cast
2 days
SOOP Global
2 days
Creator vs Rogue
Cure vs Classic
SOOP
2 days
SHIN vs GuMiho
Sparkling Tuna Cup
2 days
AllThingsProtoss
2 days
Fire Grow Cup
3 days
BSL: ProLeague
3 days
HBO vs Doodle
spx vs Tech
DragOn vs Hawk
Dewalt vs TerrOr
Replay Cast
3 days
Replay Cast
4 days
Replay Cast
4 days
WardiTV Invitational
4 days
WardiTV Invitational
4 days
GSL Code S
5 days
Rogue vs GuMiho
Maru vs Solar
Replay Cast
6 days
GSL Code S
6 days
herO vs TBD
Classic vs TBD
The PondCast
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

CSL Season 17: Qualifier 1
DreamHack Dallas 2025
Heroes 10 EU

Ongoing

JPL Season 2
BSL 2v2 Season 3
BSL Season 20
KCM Race Survival 2025 Season 2
NPSL S3
Rose Open S1
CSL Season 17: Qualifier 2
2025 GSL S2
BGE Stara Zagora 2025
BLAST.tv Austin Major 2025
ESL Impact League Season 7
IEM Dallas 2025
PGL Astana 2025
Asian Champions League '25
ECL Season 49: Europe
BLAST Rivals Spring 2025
MESA Nomadic Masters
CCT Season 2 Global Finals
IEM Melbourne 2025
YaLLa Compass Qatar 2025
PGL Bucharest 2025
BLAST Open Spring 2025

Upcoming

CSL 17: 2025 SUMMER
Copa Latinoamericana 4
CSLPRO Last Chance 2025
CSLPRO Chat StarLAN 3
K-Championship
SEL Season 2 Championship
Esports World Cup 2025
HSC XXVII
Championship of Russia 2025
Murky Cup #2
NC Random Cup
BLAST Bounty Fall 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall Qual
IEM Cologne 2025
FISSURE Playground #1
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.