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On August 17 2011 10:28 JingleHell wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 10:15 Kraznaya wrote:On August 17 2011 10:08 JingleHell wrote:On August 17 2011 10:05 Kraznaya wrote:On August 17 2011 10:01 JingleHell wrote:On August 17 2011 09:41 Kraznaya wrote:
Your post has a ton of strawmen about how people who dislike the move think.
The main problem with the way that EG does business is player development. They rely on other teams to train and develop players to their current talent level (CJ for Idra, TSL for Puma, and oGs-Liquid for Huk) and then poach them with piles of cash. If EG continues to throw its money around, great institutions like oGs-TL and TSL will have no incentive to develop players, because they will not be able to compete with moneyed teams like EG to retain them. EG hasn't the ability to foster talent, and yes, that requires much more than throwing a few players together in a Korean house and hoping they get good. You need coaching, dedication, and knowledge about the sport that EG doesn't have (just look at their "home grown" players like Machine or Strifecro), and the quality of SC2 play will suffer if they keep poaching players like this. Actually, my post has a ton of broad generalizations, based on reactions I've seen. I'm responding to the specific attitude and mindset that fits those generalizations. That's hardly a straw man argument, it's merely being efficient. I take serious issue with your use of the word "poach". Poaching implies illegality. Not questionable ethics, but illegality. They didn't break any laws. As far as ethics, guess what, those are subjective. And according to the whole Puma shindig, the way the HuK acquisition went was a model of ethics, according to what the people who were against the way EG acquired Puma said at the time.If you truly dislike the way EG works, vote with your money by not supporting their sponsors, that's the rational way to go about it. If their sponsors lose business and get negative feedback about supporting EG, then EG will get told to do things differently or else. It's all business for sponsors. What doesn't help is insulting people instead of entities. Thanks for ignoring my entire argument and focusing your entire reply on one questionable word choice of mine. No problem, just returning the favor, since you ignored my entire OP and called it a Straw Man in lieu of actually responding to it. Much love. Nah, I responded to your OP, just indirectly. Sorry if you're not intelligent enough to see that. Your OP claimed that the primary reason for teams to exist was to deliver sponsorship money to players, and "supporting them" (presumably in the form of coaching/management/practice) is basically brushed over, which is a very myopic way of viewing how quality teams operate. And it's pretty obvious that you used a ton of strawmen, just look at your sarcastic rant about the evulz American corporations. Since when was that a legitimate criticism? Wow, you accuse me of strawmen and back it up with an ad hominem attack on my intelligence, just to insure maximum irony. Last time I checked, EG is opening a house in Korea, and is, in fact, working to support their players. Also, support can mean more than just training environment, I was actually using it as a blanket to cover all the benefits that aren't salary. As for the evil American corporations bit, you seem to be agreeing with me that it isn't legitimate criticism to rant about that. That would be what all my sarcasm regarding that topic was supposed to imply, actually. And if you don't think it's been thrown around, with both Puma and HuK, you clearly haven't read the same threads I have. It has, thus mocking the stupidity of it as an argument. Currently you fail to be relevant or insulting successfully. If you can't do one or the other properly in your next post, I'll just ban you from my blog to save effort.
EG can hardly say its "supporting" its players, unless you call putting the 3 players that have done shit (2 of which were purchased from other teams after starting to swing into good results) in korea and everyone else sitting in california.
EG doesn't bother with anyone that doesn't produce results. Idra, the 'golden zerg', is turning out not to be the top notch player that so many have claimed him to be, and since EG has literally no other player that has come close to top-notch play in recent tournaments, they purchase two other players from teams that can't match the finances of such a sponsor-stacked team. TSL is running on fumes and Liquid simply doesn't have the sponsorship yet.
As soon as a top EG player stops producing (incontrol, demuslim), they get replaced (HuK, Puma).
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TLADT24920 Posts
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On August 17 2011 12:25 Active.815 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 10:28 JingleHell wrote:On August 17 2011 10:15 Kraznaya wrote:On August 17 2011 10:08 JingleHell wrote:On August 17 2011 10:05 Kraznaya wrote:On August 17 2011 10:01 JingleHell wrote:On August 17 2011 09:41 Kraznaya wrote:
Your post has a ton of strawmen about how people who dislike the move think.
The main problem with the way that EG does business is player development. They rely on other teams to train and develop players to their current talent level (CJ for Idra, TSL for Puma, and oGs-Liquid for Huk) and then poach them with piles of cash. If EG continues to throw its money around, great institutions like oGs-TL and TSL will have no incentive to develop players, because they will not be able to compete with moneyed teams like EG to retain them. EG hasn't the ability to foster talent, and yes, that requires much more than throwing a few players together in a Korean house and hoping they get good. You need coaching, dedication, and knowledge about the sport that EG doesn't have (just look at their "home grown" players like Machine or Strifecro), and the quality of SC2 play will suffer if they keep poaching players like this. Actually, my post has a ton of broad generalizations, based on reactions I've seen. I'm responding to the specific attitude and mindset that fits those generalizations. That's hardly a straw man argument, it's merely being efficient. I take serious issue with your use of the word "poach". Poaching implies illegality. Not questionable ethics, but illegality. They didn't break any laws. As far as ethics, guess what, those are subjective. And according to the whole Puma shindig, the way the HuK acquisition went was a model of ethics, according to what the people who were against the way EG acquired Puma said at the time.If you truly dislike the way EG works, vote with your money by not supporting their sponsors, that's the rational way to go about it. If their sponsors lose business and get negative feedback about supporting EG, then EG will get told to do things differently or else. It's all business for sponsors. What doesn't help is insulting people instead of entities. Thanks for ignoring my entire argument and focusing your entire reply on one questionable word choice of mine. No problem, just returning the favor, since you ignored my entire OP and called it a Straw Man in lieu of actually responding to it. Much love. Nah, I responded to your OP, just indirectly. Sorry if you're not intelligent enough to see that. Your OP claimed that the primary reason for teams to exist was to deliver sponsorship money to players, and "supporting them" (presumably in the form of coaching/management/practice) is basically brushed over, which is a very myopic way of viewing how quality teams operate. And it's pretty obvious that you used a ton of strawmen, just look at your sarcastic rant about the evulz American corporations. Since when was that a legitimate criticism? Wow, you accuse me of strawmen and back it up with an ad hominem attack on my intelligence, just to insure maximum irony. Last time I checked, EG is opening a house in Korea, and is, in fact, working to support their players. Also, support can mean more than just training environment, I was actually using it as a blanket to cover all the benefits that aren't salary. As for the evil American corporations bit, you seem to be agreeing with me that it isn't legitimate criticism to rant about that. That would be what all my sarcasm regarding that topic was supposed to imply, actually. And if you don't think it's been thrown around, with both Puma and HuK, you clearly haven't read the same threads I have. It has, thus mocking the stupidity of it as an argument. Currently you fail to be relevant or insulting successfully. If you can't do one or the other properly in your next post, I'll just ban you from my blog to save effort. EG can hardly say its "supporting" its players, unless you call putting the 3 players that have done shit (2 of which were purchased from other teams after starting to swing into good results) in korea and everyone else sitting in california. EG doesn't bother with anyone that doesn't produce results. Idra, the 'golden zerg', is turning out not to be the top notch player that so many have claimed him to be, and since EG has literally no other player that has come close to top-notch play in recent tournaments, they purchase two other players from teams that can't match the finances of such a sponsor-stacked team. TSL is running on fumes and Liquid simply doesn't have the sponsorship yet. As soon as a top EG player stops producing (incontrol, demuslim), they get replaced (HuK, Puma).
Does where they get their players actually matter to the level of support? Just curiosity. As for how good their support of their players is, I'd say since that's getting revamped right now, the best thing anyone can do is wait and see.
I actually like some of your points, though I disagree, you're doing what I asked people to do. Target the entity, and look at the real things, instead of attacking people. As such, I'm perfectly willing to say that even though I don't agree, I can see where you're coming from, and I'd call it a relevant counter opinion to my own. It is, however, an opinion, so I'd say the best we can do is agree to disagree for the most part.
It would take quite a bit to change my opinion on this overall being a good thing, due to the reasons listed in my OP.
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On August 17 2011 10:20 SichuanPanda wrote:
HuK wants to become a world class player, that would never have a chance of happening staying with TL, the site is good, but lets face it the success of team liquid in SC2 and programming is rather lackluster.
While he could do that with liquid, I feel like this is a good move for Huk because now he can come back to NA and still have a practice house. As good as Liquid is, their team is just too divided, there are players scattered everywhere and due to lag, they can't really practice together.
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Actually, my criticism is directed primarily to HuK. Evidently, he received a huge money offer that he could not refuse. What I dislike about the deal is how HuK seemingly raced to get into EG after receiving the offer. The contract didn't even run its course from what I've read, as EG bought out the rest of the contract instead. I would have thought that HuK may have felt that he owed something to TL for giving him the opportunity to go to Korea and join the oGs-TL house and well, accordingly act a little less eager to ditch his team for the big bucks. Maybe he could have done something in the name of Liquid as a farewell present to them. I dunno, I can't help but feel that if Jinro or TLO was in HuK's position, they would have done a marathon stream and played with the community or sang sweet karaoke valentines to other Liquid members or something. HuK could have done something to show how much he cared. Maybe he did, and maybe we're all wrong to judge. But from the given information, it seems like a humiliation and disrespect of Liquid and its sponsors, who were primarily responsible for transforming HuK from a hated 1-base all-in beta player to who he is today.
I hope for HuK's sake that EG has better plans than sending IdrA and PuMa to play with him all day. That would be a huge step down from the oGs-TL house, where he was still steadily improving and coming within a more and more realistic shot at GSL glory. If the IM-EG partnership rumour is true, then maybe the deal was worth it from a playing perspective. But if there's nothing of the sort, then it seems the move was driven all out from money, which leads to unpure connoctations when HuK chimes the "chasing the dream" mantra again.
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On August 17 2011 09:54 CeriseCherries wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 09:41 Kraznaya wrote:
Your post has a ton of strawmen about how people who dislike the move think.
The main problem with the way that EG does business is player development. They rely on other teams to train and develop players to their current talent level (CJ for Idra, TSL for Puma, and oGs-Liquid for Huk) and then poach them with piles of cash. If EG continues to throw its money around, great institutions like oGs-TL and TSL will have no incentive to develop players, because they will not be able to compete with moneyed teams like EG to retain them. EG hasn't the ability to foster talent, and yes, that requires much more than throwing a few players together in a Korean house and hoping they get good. You need coaching, dedication, and knowledge about the sport that EG doesn't have (just look at their "home grown" players like Machine or Strifecro), and the quality of SC2 play will suffer if they keep poaching players like this. This isn't true -.- Just look at football (soccer). A lot of teams do not train their players from youth, but rather purchase them from other teams. And some clubs have become feeding clubs where many players are brought up into their prime, at which point a bigger stronger team comes in and buys the player. And yet the system still functions. Another way to look at it: will Machine and Strifecro ever become amazing with only 1 player to practice with, or if they have IdrA/Huk/Puma to practice with. Its easier to be good when there's better players on your team. There needs to be a core of players and EG is acquiring that core.
One of the big factor is moving to a better club is to play with better players and benefit from their world class training facilities, Huk is most likely going to improve more as a player in the OGS-TL team house with thewind than training with puma and idra with no coach.
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On August 17 2011 13:49 tyCe wrote:
Actually, my criticism is directed primarily to HuK. Evidently, he received a huge money offer that he could not refuse. What I dislike about the deal is how HuK seemingly raced to get into EG after receiving the offer. The contract didn't even run its course from what I've read, as EG bought out the rest of the contract instead. I would have thought that HuK may have felt that he owed something to TL for giving him the opportunity to go to Korea and join the oGs-TL house and well, accordingly act a little less eager to ditch his team for the big bucks. Maybe he could have done something in the name of Liquid as a farewell present to them. I dunno, I can't help but feel that if Jinro or TLO was in HuK's position, they would have done a marathon stream and played with the community or sang sweet karaoke valentines to other Liquid members or something. HuK could have done something to show how much he cared. Maybe he did, and maybe we're all wrong to judge. But from the given information, it seems like a humiliation and disrespect of Liquid and its sponsors, who were primarily responsible for transforming HuK from a hated 1-base all-in beta player to who he is today.
I hope for HuK's sake that EG has better plans than sending IdrA and PuMa to play with him all day. That would be a huge step down from the oGs-TL house, where he was still steadily improving and coming within a more and more realistic shot at GSL glory. If the IM-EG partnership rumour is true, then maybe the deal was worth it from a playing perspective. But if there's nothing of the sort, then it seems the move was driven all out from money, which leads to unpure connoctations when HuK chimes the "chasing the dream" mantra again.
What is the point of completing your contract when both teams deem it unnecessary? Huk wants to win. He believes this is his best opportunity to support that. Why wait?
From what I have read it doesn't seem that either Huk or the Liquid guys see his actions as "a humiliation and disrespect of Liquid and its sponsors". In addition I would argue that it is Huk who transformed his play, not the team. They supported him, yes, but to say he couldn't have done it another way is an insult to his dedication.
Huk is clearly grateful for what TL has given him. I see nothing that challenges this. All I see is someone taking the opportunity when it arises. Yes, it is sad that TL loses someone as integral as Huk, but that is it.
My only question is how long is the new contract? Will be interesting to see what happens if Huk doesn't settle into the EG system...
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On August 17 2011 13:49 tyCe wrote:
Actually, my criticism is directed primarily to HuK. Evidently, he received a huge money offer that he could not refuse. What I dislike about the deal is how HuK seemingly raced to get into EG after receiving the offer. The contract didn't even run its course from what I've read, as EG bought out the rest of the contract instead. I would have thought that HuK may have felt that he owed something to TL for giving him the opportunity to go to Korea and join the oGs-TL house and well, accordingly act a little less eager to ditch his team for the big bucks. Maybe he could have done something in the name of Liquid as a farewell present to them. I dunno, I can't help but feel that if Jinro or TLO was in HuK's position, they would have done a marathon stream and played with the community or sang sweet karaoke valentines to other Liquid members or something. HuK could have done something to show how much he cared. Maybe he did, and maybe we're all wrong to judge. But from the given information, it seems like a humiliation and disrespect of Liquid and its sponsors, who were primarily responsible for transforming HuK from a hated 1-base all-in beta player to who he is today.
I hope for HuK's sake that EG has better plans than sending IdrA and PuMa to play with him all day. That would be a huge step down from the oGs-TL house, where he was still steadily improving and coming within a more and more realistic shot at GSL glory. If the IM-EG partnership rumour is true, then maybe the deal was worth it from a playing perspective. But if there's nothing of the sort, then it seems the move was driven all out from money, which leads to unpure connoctations when HuK chimes the "chasing the dream" mantra again.
Actually, if it's definitely going to happen, letting EG buy out his contract is doing something for Liquid. Obviously we don't know the money involved, but from the way the announcement was worded, the remainder of his contract was actually bought out. As in, Liquid, as an organization, got something out of the transfer. On an individual level, he very much seems to have also done what he could not to burn bridges with the others.
And while yes, the oGs house may have contributed, HuK had it in him to reach the point he did, and only by working his ass off could he have reached the level he did. Don't just throw away his hard work and say it's all because of other people. No level of training, and no group of practice partners could get me to the point where I could win Dreamhack, because I don't have the dedication. Don't devalue HuK's contribution to his success.
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You're right.
But I'm still sad.
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EPT
