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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
Victory Through Absurdity: Infestors and Speedlings and Thors, oh my!
ThreeFOUR stories of weird, weird stuff I've seen (and lost to) in TvZ.
Game 1: Xel Naga Caverns
So, here I am chilling in my ladder game. TvZ, Xel Naga Caverns, no problem. Basically balling, having a party, making scvs, making my depot, whatever. For some reason, I send out a 10 supply scout even though it's a 2-player map. I swing by his nat, don't see a hatch yet.
"Oh, he's not going hatch-first. Speedling expand, or maybe some sort of all-in."
I swing around through his main, scouting a gas and a pool. I'm feeling pretty confident, now, in my assessment. Looks like a speedling expo. I send my scv back out towards the natural and hide it in the Tasteless Secret Hallway.
About a moment later, I come back out to scout his natural. No natural. Whoa. "baneling bust incoming!" I think. At this point, I realize that everything is going to be alright because I build every structure (literally every structure) before I expand up against my choke. There's no way he has enough banelings to bust it.
A minute passes. And two! and three! and still no expansion. I send my scout scv (Daniel, let's call him) into the zerg base. Daniel knows what its like to be a scout scv; you either die a hero, or live long enough to become a villain. And Daniel, I assure you, is no villain. In he goes. There are no zerglings, no banelings, and in fact, there is just 1 lair and a queen. 2 gasses, a pool... and an infestation pit.
Wat.
At this point, I realize he's... rushing infestor. I'm completely at a loss-- what do I do in this case? I had been bracing for a baneling bust all game and have been sitting on one base. Near as I can tell, so has this zerg. At this point, assuming quick gas timings, he's mined 500-600 gas (it's about 7 minutes in right now) and could have easily a lair (100 gas) an infestation pit (another 100 gas? I think) and 3 infestor morphing (or 2 with the energy upgrade? Or maybe even 3 with energy upgrade if he started earlier.
This means that if I push now, he has, like, 2 fungals, MAYBE three. He'll lose. But I'm not thinking of that right now. I'm thinking about the usual infestor play I see, in the mid-late game, where there are enough fungals to kill balls of marines and freeze tanks unsieged and do all kinds of crazy zerg magick.
So instead of pushing for a win, I cower in a corner and die as his infestors build up to 200 energy and he does a 2-base timing attack. My ball of like 40 marines all clumped into a small space get fungaled, twice, and they explode. Herp derp. I lose.
Game 2: Shattered Temple
Two days later, I'm laddering again. Season 3, you guys!
So here I am, chilling, and I scout a zerg player going 1-base infestor, and I'll be damned if I don't punish him for THAT. If he's going to do some weird build I've never heard of, looks like I'll have to do the same. I begin preparations to launch... the Thorship.
*puts on hipster glasses*
You've probably never heard of it. I was into it while it was still underground, while this game was in beta. I don't use it because it's popular or good on the current map pool, I use it ironically, okay?
On a more serious note, I drop my Thor into his main, snipe his singular queen, do a little poking, then fly, fly away (he has a lot of speedlings). Killing just a queen and a few speedlings isn't huge, but it means he misses 1 inject (since it takes like 30 seconds to make a queen) and if you're on 1 hatch you're larvae-starved already.
I land the thorship, and my 2nd thor pops, as well as my banshee. I slap down an expo, grab my 2 thors, my handful of marines, my medivac, my banshee, and 3-4 scvs, and go win. He manages to get a singular fungal off on my lead thor as it goes up the ramp. The thor is relentless. The thor does not stop for anyone, not even fungal growths (after the 4 seconds of being rooted, at least)... the gg is inevitable.
Game 3: Crapwater Gulch
I proceed to lose my next game to a baneling bust. yayyyyyyyyyy
Game 4: NEW BONUS GAME FOR THE COMMENTERS: XEL NAGA CAVERNS
http://sc2rep.com/replays/(Z)ZyNoN_vs_(T)Blazinghand_xel_naga_caverns_sc2rep_com_20110729/11824
So I recently lost a game where a zerg player did this infestor rush, and then transitioned to a 2 base ultralisk attack that I somehow lost to. Even typing it out, I feel like a moron. How did I lose to 2 base infestor ultralisks? Is that even possible?
On a more serious note, has this happened to anyone else? I'm a mid-level diamond league player and I've been seeing a lot of 1-base infestor play recently (ZvT) or like, a speedling infestor expand. I don't understand how it works, or why people are doing it, or how it's even like, not terrible. Am I just so bad that I haven't figured out why this is good?
  
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Queens have a 50 second build time.
I don't really see how one base infestor could work, as you noted a thor could just plow through as there is no way they would have enough energy, in fact any sort of push could probably abuse the fact that your opponent is only sitting on 2 geysers and must re enforce infestors to re-gain the energy mid battle, I'd think just 4 rax-ing and throwing marines at the problem would work.
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
On July 29 2011 03:19 Soluhwin wrote:
Queens have a 50 second build time.
I don't really see how one base infestor could work, as you noted a thor could just plow through as there is no way they would have enough energy, in fact any sort of push could probably abuse the fact that your opponent is only sitting on 2 geysers and must re enforce infestors to re-gain the energy mid battle, I'd think just 4 rax-ing and throwing marines at the problem would work.
It wouldn't even have to be an all-in, right? I mean, if you're rushing infestor on one base you must be SO VULNERABLE, especially before you get enough energy for a fungal-- I don't even get how this is supposed to work.
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I think zergs are using more infestors because of Destiny.
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
On July 29 2011 03:30 GigaFlop wrote:
I think zergs are using more infestors because of Destiny.
Hm. I've seen destiny use infestors in ZvP on day9 daily, but he tended to go for them after taking a 2nd, and would build up a pretty large number-- and although I do see more infestor play in midame ZvT, do you think it's possible to implement them on 1 base as these guys have tried to do?
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I think this is a case of people trying to copy players like destiny, but they concentrate too hard on the units and not how to get there. They see good infestor play and how awesome it can be and just say "hey I need to make infestors." So they just go for infestors without worrying about a good and safe way to execute it.
I really can't see how 1 base infestor as you describe is supposed to work lol. It just seems that pretty much any attack (doesn't even have to be all in) that hits before infestors pop out with fungals wins automatically lol.
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On July 29 2011 03:12 Blazinghand wrote:
I'm a mid-level diamond league player and I've been seeing a lot of 1-base infestor play recently (ZvT) or like, a speedling infestor expand. I don't understand how it works, or why people are doing it, or how it's even like, not terrible.
It works because it's a weird, gimmicky strategy that you haven't seen before. I'm in plat and see weird strategies all the time that only work because of my lack of experience. A couple days ago I lost to a 4gate with 8 proxy pylons. This happened a mere hour after barely beating a marine/marauder all-in followed by a nuke rush.
Let's analyze this - the zerg is sticking to one base (low economy), rushes infestors and compliments with speedlings? Hmm. I'm a zerg player and I've been using the ling/infestor midgame composition since January (mrbitter represent!), and I can tell you that it's extremely gas-heavy (1 infestor = 150 gas) and it takes a while to get a good number of infestors/fungals or infested terrans to do a ton of damage (~8 is my preference, though I go 2-3 base). For the life of me I can't see why a one base infestor rush would even work. In fact, I've been doing this very strategy on 4v4 and it gets stomped all the time!
So we know the zerg is spending a ton of gas on infestors and infestor energy. This means we know he won't have many upgrades (if any). All the extra minerals are going towards speedlings or drones, and on one base the zerg's economy maxes out on like, 24 drones. This means you can...
a). Take an expansion. This may be risky since the zerg can get some infestors and transition into an all-in on your natural. I've found that siege tanks behind the main wall-in and bunkers are very effective against infestors. You can't fungal a bunker, afterall. If you take this route make sure you put up a few turrets to spot brofestor hit squads (thanks Destiny...). If you succeed you have an economic lead over the zerg.
b). A ling/infestor army is very strong against a bioball, so why not sidestep the issue? Going tank-heavy and harassing with multiple marine drops ensures that the zerg shouldn't attack you without neural parasite (so tack a couple extra minutes before the rush!). You could even skip marines and spend your minerals on BF hellions. Actually, hellion harass is pretty effective against a ling-only army provided you don't let your macro slip. Thor drops work as well, as I'm sure you discovered...
c). Freak out, do something stupid, lose, BM your opponent, and then complain about how infestors are OP and need nerfing immediately. You seem above this, though 
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
On July 29 2011 04:09 Servius_Fulvius wrote:c). Freak out, do something stupid, lose, BM your opponent, and then complain about how infestors are OP and need nerfing immediately. You seem above this, though
DUDE THIS WAY SOUNDS AWESOME, CLEARLY ZERG OP. NEW PLAN: LOSE MORE GAMES.
I don't really think Infestors are like, too strong. They're similar to banelings in that they cost a lot of gas, are good against marines, and are bad against sieged-up tanks due to range and damage. They're harder to split/micro against but are susceptible to EMPs and require more micro to use.
So I recently lost a game where a zerg player did this, and then transitioned to a 2 base ultralisk attack that I somehow lost to. Even typing it out, I feel like a moron. How did I lose to 2 base infestor ultralisks? Is that even possible? I think I'll upload a replay in a bit.
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On July 29 2011 05:16 Blazinghand wrote:Show nested quote +On July 29 2011 04:09 Servius_Fulvius wrote:c). Freak out, do something stupid, lose, BM your opponent, and then complain about how infestors are OP and need nerfing immediately. You seem above this, though So I recently lost a game where a zerg player did this, and then transitioned to a 2 base ultralisk attack that I somehow lost to. Even typing it out, I feel like a moron. How did I lose to 2 base infestor ultralisks? Is that even possible? I think I'll upload a replay in a bit.
This is probably the best reaction to a loss I've ever read. Good on your for not taking things too seriously.
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Since we're on the topic of embarrassing losses, I'm high masters and i lost to a terran going mass tank... i sort of realised he was going mech but he made MASS (like 5 in nat, and a fucking wall of them in his main) turrets in his two bases, blind as a bat i didn't even make any mutas or drops or anything so i thought fine, two base terran going mech ill just mass roach; he pushes out and kills my army in two red seconds, then proceeds to move towards me and i counter attack. He turns back with his tank force and kills my counterattacking army. This is when i start thinking im playing like shit, he already got vikings and i maxed too fast so i actually dont have as many drones as i should have... i take the small respite from my counterattack to hatch up on every expansion while he moves out again. I counterattack and kill his base, but only got roaches so i cant kill his flying buildings.
I spent the next 20 minutes buildings new bases while he trashed my main and went from base to base whacking them; he still had scans from his orbitals flying around and landing wherever this was frustrating as shit. I'll never lose a game like that again though, dont go fucking roaches against mech unless 1. you gonna attack him before deathball 2. its close positions so you are afraid he will push out early. roaches suck hard against upgraded thors, tanks and they dont deal any damage to hellions so they can stand in the way forever. just make enough banelings to kill his thors... and go broodlords :p
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On July 29 2011 05:16 Blazinghand wrote:
So I recently lost a game where a zerg player did this, and then transitioned to a 2 base ultralisk attack that I somehow lost to. Even typing it out, I feel like a moron. How did I lose to 2 base infestor ultralisks? Is that even possible? I think I'll upload a replay in a bit.
Now I'm questioning whether or not your macro mechanics are up to snuff. Rushing to ultras takes a lot of time and resources, but it's not like ultras are invincible. A good siege line and stimmed marines takes them down pretty handily. You have to make sure you're upgrading, though. I've noticed a lot of my plat terran opponents stop at 1-1. 5-3 ultras and 3/3 cracklings rip them to pieces. If they're doing all this off two bases then their upgrades couldn't have been very high (or you didn't make enough scv's/unit facilities to combat it). Heck, even with 5-3 ultras they still have to take all the shellings until they reach the siege line, so a good sim city can go a long way.
Now I'm curious about this replay!
Edit: Since we're on the topic of embarrassing losses....
ZvZ is my worst matchup right now at a 38% win rate (compared to 66% vP and 70% vT). ZvZ doesn't look so bad on high level streams since it's almost always a ling/bane into roach/infestor or straight roach/infestor game. I think this happens because they can scout and beat the gimmicky BS from the lower leagues. Before you get all this knowledge just knowing things like "he took a later gas" doesn't tell me much about their midgame plan since there's a TON of different all-ins or "nonstandard" play available. Anyway:
Last night. Taldarim, he's at 2, I'm at 5. I scout him out pretty early and he's droning hard. I take the opportunity to expand, get some roaches for speedling defense, and macro'd. About 3 minutes later he expands and shows a small army. I send in a few lings and an ovie, but they only see a paltry roach force and his early game lings before dying. Wow, someone who macro's worse than me. This should be cake!
About a minute later I see a glob of red moving down the minimap. Roaches and lings?! My roaches are taking down rocks for a third, so they come back, get surrounded while 20 other lings wreak my mineral lines. What the CRAP what that?!?! In the replay my opponent stopped droning at 19 and massed speedlings until 9 minutes. I had a good 10-15 roaches and 2 infestors that JUST hatched, but his 5 roaches and 48 speedlings were a bit too much. Even better, when I sent my scouts there was a flurry of activity to hide the 30 extra lings around his base including moving a queen WAY off creep to kill my ovie. I'll give my opponent props since he won (though I think his strategy was more lucky than a well conceived timing attack before I had 5 more infestors), but that is one of the more elaborate all-ins I've lost to....
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
Game 4: NEW BONUS GAME FOR THE COMMENTERS: XEL NAGA CAVERNS
http://sc2rep.com/replays/(Z)ZyNoN_vs_(T)Blazinghand_xel_naga_caverns_sc2rep_com_20110729/11824
This is it, gentlemen! BEHOLD A SUCCESSFUL INFESTOR RUSH. We've got unnecessary marines, we've got quad creep tumors, we've got thorship, we've got zerglings, we've got thor-marine all-in, we've got ultralisks, and we've got horrible horrible failures of macro, micro, timing, strategy, mechanics, and basic computer skills on both sides.
That, and beautiful sexy fungals.
Don't mind the BM at the end. Just kidding, I never BM; I just said that because that's what all the noobs who upload replays say -_-. This guy straight up stomped me... like wow. He well earned the GG I gave him.
So, what do I do, you guys? rush harder? moar thoarship? more tanks? don't lose to infestors? please share.
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EPT
