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First off, I would just like to say that I'm not dissing anyone for "coaching" people. This is just a simple question that I think needs to be answered.
Starcraft is a game where you can save your replays. I don't understand why anyone would need the help of someone else to get better. You watch your replay, find out where you failed, change your strat up or work on what you're already doing to make it better, and bam, you just coached yourself.
Whenever I watch videos of people getting coached, it's usually just simple advice like "make drones, make overlords..," which everyone can do by themselves.
While on the topic of coaching, I find it ridiculous anyone would pay anything more then $5 an hour for coaching. Do you think your coaches payed someone $50 an hour for advice? Probably not.
Anyways, this blog isn't meant to diss "coaches." I just want to know why people would pay someone $50/hour to do something they can do themselves.
  
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You are not alone sir, I also do not understand why anybody would pay more money to play this game.....I mean, some circumstances would allow the buying of multiple accounts depending on your need (I.E. progamer that needs to have access to all servers)
But for the average joe diamond, coaching, or even buying a second account seems incredibly silly to me.
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there are obvious benefits to coaching. coaches are generally good players. they spot stuff in replays that you will not.
however, i never understood lower level players getting coached. sometimes i tune into destiny or incontrol streams and they are just saying "your minerals are too high" or "you're supply blocked, you missed injects." then i laugh at the person being coached because they wasted their money on things they could practice on their own.
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United States10654 Posts
Dunno, why are there so many coaches for every sports team? Trainers? Why do people hire private coaches for sports? Music lessons? You can record yourself doing it or look stuff up online.
Coaching makes everything easier. Of course it can be done yourself, but it can't be done nearly as well or as quickly.
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The problem is that you assume getting coached and watching replays of yourself is the same thing, it's like asking "Why do people believe in religion when god does not exist?". don't ask questions where you've already decided on the answer yourself.
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To add to those points, it is completely infeasible to accept a job that pays $5 an hour....coaches are human beings as well and also need money to survive. -_-;
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What used to help me in BW was having a better player than me watch my replays with me and point out mistakes I was making. It's similar with a coach. You get immediate, concise and specific feedback. Coaches highlight problems you didn't even know you had and give a fresh outlook on your game.
Can you see that coaching has some value?
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Why do people pay for guitar lessons? Why do people pay for piano lessons? Why do sports players have trainers and coaches when they can just watch their footage themselves? Why watch Day9 analyze a replay when you could just get the replay yourself?
Some people have a much better understanding of a game and can pinpoint things about your gameplay that you would not have even thought to look at. It saves a lot of time, effort, and frustration of the person trying to brute force their way through the learning process on their own.
Watch one of the recordings of people such as incontrol coaching, it definitely helps a ton more than just doing your own self analysis for 99.9% of players.
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If you want to be a progamer or just earn from it through tournament, then it makes some sense to get legitimate coaching. Otherwise, it's just a plain waste of moneys
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On July 28 2011 04:02 Pokebunny wrote:
Dunno, why are there so many coaches for every sports team? Trainers? Why do people hire private coaches for sports? Music lessons? You can record yourself doing it or look stuff up online.
Coaching makes everything easier. Of course it can be done yourself, but it can't be done nearly as well or as quickly.
Well, in other sports you don't have replays like you do in SC2. Anyways, while I was starting off with weight training, I would record myself, look at youtube videos, and make my form look like the person in the video.
It may take a bit longer if you're correcting yourself, but their are many benefits. You learn how to do what you're doing by YOURSELF. That brings a whole new level of experience into it, which, IMO, is better then someone just telling you to do something.
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United States10654 Posts
On July 28 2011 04:08 urasheep wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2011 04:02 Pokebunny wrote:
Dunno, why are there so many coaches for every sports team? Trainers? Why do people hire private coaches for sports? Music lessons? You can record yourself doing it or look stuff up online.
Coaching makes everything easier. Of course it can be done yourself, but it can't be done nearly as well or as quickly. Well, in other sports you don't have replays like you do in SC2. Anyways, while I was starting off with weight training, I would record myself, look at youtube videos, and make my form look like the person in the video. It may take a bit longer if you're correcting yourself, but their are many benefits. You learn how to do what you're doing by YOURSELF. That brings a whole new level of experience into it, which, IMO, is better then someone just telling you to do something.
People learn in different ways. Coaching isn't for everyone, but some people find it very beneficial. I agree that self-correction is good oftentimes in the long run, but coaching definitely has its place.
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On July 28 2011 04:07 Trumpet wrote:
Why do people pay for guitar lessons? Why do people pay for piano lessons? Why do sports players have trainers and coaches when they can just watch their footage themselves? Why watch Day9 analyze a replay when you could just get the replay yourself?
Some people have a much better understanding of a game and can pinpoint things about your gameplay that you would not have even thought to look at. It saves a lot of time, effort, and frustration of the person trying to brute force their way through the learning process on their own.
Watch one of the recordings of people such as incontrol coaching, it definitely helps a ton more than just doing your own self analysis for 99.9% of players.
Well my opinion is kinda biased, because I started off from brood war and basically had to learn everything myself, there wasn't "coaching" around while I was playing. I felt that if I had a coach I wouldn't have the game sense and confidence going into a game that I do now.
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On July 28 2011 04:10 Pokebunny wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2011 04:08 urasheep wrote:On July 28 2011 04:02 Pokebunny wrote:
Dunno, why are there so many coaches for every sports team? Trainers? Why do people hire private coaches for sports? Music lessons? You can record yourself doing it or look stuff up online.
Coaching makes everything easier. Of course it can be done yourself, but it can't be done nearly as well or as quickly. Well, in other sports you don't have replays like you do in SC2. Anyways, while I was starting off with weight training, I would record myself, look at youtube videos, and make my form look like the person in the video. It may take a bit longer if you're correcting yourself, but their are many benefits. You learn how to do what you're doing by YOURSELF. That brings a whole new level of experience into it, which, IMO, is better then someone just telling you to do something. People learn in different ways. Coaching isn't for everyone, but some people find it very beneficial. I agree that self-correction is good oftentimes in the long run, but coaching definitely has its place.
Okay, well I agree with you on that. What ever works for you, I guess. I just wanted to get the mindset of people who have gotten coached, you know?
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I don't at all get players below Master League paying for coaching, and even then you better be hoping to get into Grandmaster sometime in the near future. You basically have nothing to gain otherwise other than increasing the size of your E-penis.
I've seen Destiny coach Silver and Gold League players. WHY? Good for Destiny making money for himself, but why are these people paying him $20 an hour for this? What good does it do them?
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Coaching isnt just for low levels, im mid masters and i got coaching from incontrol (Awsome btw). It just an accelerated learning process and is also quite entertaining so i would say its worth paying for.
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I agree. Having a pro tell you every move in the game isn't that benifitial in my opinion. They watch you play and tell you what to do pretty much. Honestly in my opinion, not all games are gonna have similiar situations. They teach you what you should scout for and how to react.
I feel as long as you have a good solid opening with a good transition into a good mid/late game plan you should be fine. Coaches tell you your mistakes and where you can improve. In my opinion you can just go back and watch the replay to see what you did wrong. As far as mechanics, that's all on you on just practicing everyday.
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On July 28 2011 04:10 urasheep wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2011 04:07 Trumpet wrote:
Why do people pay for guitar lessons? Why do people pay for piano lessons? Why do sports players have trainers and coaches when they can just watch their footage themselves? Why watch Day9 analyze a replay when you could just get the replay yourself?
Some people have a much better understanding of a game and can pinpoint things about your gameplay that you would not have even thought to look at. It saves a lot of time, effort, and frustration of the person trying to brute force their way through the learning process on their own.
Watch one of the recordings of people such as incontrol coaching, it definitely helps a ton more than just doing your own self analysis for 99.9% of players.
Well my opinion is kinda biased, because I started off from brood war and basically had to learn everything myself, there wasn't "coaching" around while I was playing. I felt that if I had a coach I wouldn't have the game sense and confidence going into a game that I do now.
I started off in bw as well. I had friends that watched replays together to help each other improve. That's no different than coaching, except now instead of watching replays with friends you can get a pro player to watch you and show you things you would have never noticed or get you to look at a game in a much different view.
Coaching accelerates the growth of a player, and it's fun to improve no matter what skill level you are.
I wouldn't pay for coaching myself, but I know firsthand how a significantly better player can see things completely differently and already know proper solutions to things.
Would you rather have to practice for hours trying to solve a problem that's already been solved or just have an experienced player bring you up to speed?
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On July 28 2011 04:19 Trumpet wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2011 04:10 urasheep wrote:On July 28 2011 04:07 Trumpet wrote:
Why do people pay for guitar lessons? Why do people pay for piano lessons? Why do sports players have trainers and coaches when they can just watch their footage themselves? Why watch Day9 analyze a replay when you could just get the replay yourself?
Some people have a much better understanding of a game and can pinpoint things about your gameplay that you would not have even thought to look at. It saves a lot of time, effort, and frustration of the person trying to brute force their way through the learning process on their own.
Watch one of the recordings of people such as incontrol coaching, it definitely helps a ton more than just doing your own self analysis for 99.9% of players.
Well my opinion is kinda biased, because I started off from brood war and basically had to learn everything myself, there wasn't "coaching" around while I was playing. I felt that if I had a coach I wouldn't have the game sense and confidence going into a game that I do now. I started off in bw as well. I had friends that watched replays together to help each other improve. That's no different than coaching, except now instead of watching replays with friends you can get a pro player to watch you and show you things you would have never noticed or get you to look at a game in a much different view. Coaching accelerates the growth of a player, and it's fun to improve no matter what skill level you are. I wouldn't pay for coaching myself, but I know firsthand how a significantly better player can see things completely differently and already know proper solutions to things. Would you rather have to practice for hours trying to solve a problem that's already been solved or just have an experienced player bring you up to speed?
Well, my opinion on it is, when you learn things first hand, with no help, you will come on top and be better then a player who just got told what to do and doesn't understand 100% why he is doing what he's doing.
I also had people watch my replays in broodwar, that's why I kind of brought up the $5/hour thing. I find it completely ridiculous that people charge up to $50/hour just to get help, when in brood war you could go into any channel with half decent players and get help.
Even though I did have people help me though, I still learned myself, and watched my own replays. You get better game sense when you learn things yourself and figure out why you should do something yourself.
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People pay for coaching for the same reason people pay for lessons in any other hobby. They really really enjoy the hobby, and want to get better at a significantly faster speed instead of doing it themselves. But like pokebunny said, coaching itself isn't for everybody. And might not even be necessary.
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I thought that with the economy people would spend money on more necessary things, like gas which they always complain about, but they always spend money on the worst things.
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I would have thought the same 1-2 years ago but I had the benefit of having Ver coach/help me in bw and after that I realized why people do pay for coaching. There is a chance you end up being a bit too dependent on them and don't spend enough time looking at your own reps and thinking about the game by yourself but in the long run everything seems different after their help. When you're being coached they aren't just telling you what to do or at least for good coaches. You discuss the game with them, ask questions and get them answered, have someone to play with and hear someone better than you, their perspectives and thoughts. After that when you play and watch replays of games you start noticing patterns in games you never noticed before. You just approach the game in a totally different way after. I would have been a totally different player in bw if it wasn't for Ver's help
If you enjoy playing this game and enjoy being the best you can be I don't see why not. You say that the lessons you've seen its very basic advice for silver, gold players that they can do on their own but even if someone knows what to do if they don't have the motivation they won't fix their problems as easily. Having a coach just helps you get going and its no wonder there is a good demand for it right now. Like if you ever played an instrument I'm pretty sure you can become pretty decent self-taught but people still pay for lessons. If people really thought it was a waste of money they wouldn't keep on continuing lessons. They've seen the results after taking them.
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On July 28 2011 04:19 Trumpet wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2011 04:10 urasheep wrote:On July 28 2011 04:07 Trumpet wrote:
Why do people pay for guitar lessons? Why do people pay for piano lessons? Why do sports players have trainers and coaches when they can just watch their footage themselves? Why watch Day9 analyze a replay when you could just get the replay yourself?
Some people have a much better understanding of a game and can pinpoint things about your gameplay that you would not have even thought to look at. It saves a lot of time, effort, and frustration of the person trying to brute force their way through the learning process on their own.
Watch one of the recordings of people such as incontrol coaching, it definitely helps a ton more than just doing your own self analysis for 99.9% of players.
Would you rather have to practice for hours trying to solve a problem that's already been solved or just have an experienced player bring you up to speed?
I think this would be why I have been considering coaching. I've been in Diamond for all 3 seasons now and I'm marginally better than when I started. I'm under a time constraint... married, job etc.
I want to believe that I can improve more efficiently by being shown how to improve. I've heard many pros state that they can quickly get back in shape because they know how practice. I would love for them to share that with me!
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Of course self improvement is necessary. Doesn't mean that coaching is useless though. Remember when everything you do essays in school, the teachers always recommend you to do Peer Review? Coaches are there to spot and teach things you will normally miss because they are better players and have way more experience than you. It shortens the time you need to spot your mistakes by yourself.
As for why silver and gold players do it, people go for tennis or golf coaching, piano , violin lessons and all sorts of things even though they will never be professional. If they have the money , it is natural for some people to want to improve and do better.
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
sigh
These threads keep popping up and I suppose they always will.
Coaches don't have some magic elixir. Yes you can get the info for free and on your own. No you won't get it as fast and no you won't get all of it. Having someone concisely tell you exactly what you need to focus on to most immediately improve your game IS HELPFUL (depending on the coach obv). Spending time with someone that does this 10 or 100x more than you DOES help.
It isn't a question of "does it help" or not. It's a question of "are you willing to pay to expedite a process you possibly could do on your own?" Absolutely you learn faster with a coach. Absolutely you may miss stuff they cover OR misunderstand stuff that you read/see on your own.
If these things are worth your money then you will do it and benefit. If you don't have the money or prefer to do things on your own it will take longer and you may never get there but you will save money.
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Music lessons are different. A trained ear can hear very small mistakes, that you wouldn't notice by yourself. Also, music existed before internet was widely spread. And than you couldn't look up a piano, or guitar training schedule, or music via google, you had to get a teacher to train you. So partly I think its a habit to have a teacher.
In sports, if its a team sport you obviously need a team. You need a team captain for coordination, and its generally better to have someone who actually knows that sport well. Also try learning i dunno ski jumping on the internet. I don't think it would be easy.
However, for SC2, you can find everything on TL for example, ask what did you do wrong, if you can't find it, and a lot of strong players will help for free. I think by the time you really would need a coach, you should already be in a team, which probably provides free coaching via stronger teammates.
So in conclusion, I don't really know, why would you want someone to coach you for 50$, except probably for the experience of talking to a pro! Or being on a stream!... Or being stuck, and too lazy to figure out your problems on your own, I mean, if you wanna get better, spending some time searching for a solution is really not that big of a sacrifice...
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On July 28 2011 04:29 Roe wrote:
I thought that with the economy people would spend money on more necessary things, like gas which they always complain about, but they always spend money on the worst things.
Because these "unnecessary" things are what keep people going in their lives.
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On July 28 2011 04:31 Kuzmorgo wrote:
Music lessons are different. A trained ear can hear very small mistakes, that you wouldn't notice by yourself. Also, music existed before internet was widely spread. And than you couldn't look up a piano, or guitar training schedule, or music via google, you had to get a teacher to train you. So partly I think its a habit to have a teacher.
In sports, if its a team sport you obviously need a team. You need a team captain for coordination, and its generally better to have someone who actually knows that sport well. Also try learning i dunno ski jumping on the internet. I don't think it would be easy.
However, for SC2, you can find everything on TL for example, ask what did you do wrong, if you can't find it, and a lot of strong players will help for free. I think by the time you really would need a coach, you should already be in a team, which probably provides free coaching via stronger teammates.
So in conclusion, I don't really know, why would you want someone to coach you for 50$, except probably for the experience of talking to a pro! Or being on a stream!... Or being stuck, and too lazy to figure out your problems on your own, I mean, if you wanna get better, spending some time searching for a solution is really not that big of a sacrifice...
Music lessons are not different. A trained ear can hear very small mistakes, a trained SC player can see small mistakes in your play that you wouldn't notice by yourself. For every music, sport, activity, anything out there there are detailed guides and instructional videos to teach yourself. SC is no different.
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The other thing that hasn't been mentioned is that some of these people are just fans of the coach. People will pay money for just an autograph. Maybe it's worth it just to hang out and talk starcraft with someone you admire.
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United States24682 Posts
The majority of my improvement in broodwar can be credited to the people who helped me with, basically, free coaching. Yea, I could have figured out on my own that I should have tried to always expand pvz with my sairs and dt BEFORE getting a robo rather than getting all three techs, but it was faster for someone to notice I didn't currently get it and explain it to me.
Market values are generally determined by supply and demand so keep that in mind.
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I always argue (for all sorts of different things you spend money on) that if you're going to get "more" out of whatever you're doing by paying, you might as well. That's my mindset playing p2p games (mostly MMO's) or buying online avatar/cash items, because I know looking better than the other virtual folks make me happy. Ok maybe that wasn't a good opener.
Here's my opinion: if people want to get better, getting coaching (and paying) is not a bad idea. They potentially save time by having someone else of higher skill and insight point out the mistakes instead of spending hours figuring it out themselves. Coaches not only correct mistakes but share their personal findings and somewhat transfer their style also, exposing the trainee to ideas that he/she never thought about before. Of course, simply paying a coach is not the path to success - the trainee must have a certain minimum level of competence, and also have to put in a fair share of effort.
I've never paid a coach for SCBW (and I don't really play SC2 too much anyway). But I do see why people would pay for coaching. The exact fair price is something I can't really comment since I never had experience with this.
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I think the fundamental comparison to seek coaching is a 'make vs buy' argument (and to a lesser extent, it's also like paying for somebody to be your friend =/). Given enough time, anybody who plays enough while testing out strategies, reading forums, watching pro-players, reviewing replays, will obviously grow as a strong player. What if you spend 10 hours a day making a huge salary and don't have time to do all that self-reflection when you're off; coaching would make sense in this case; it definitely has its place.
I've never been coached before, but would only consider it for some alternative reasons. One, as a Thank You for streaming; some of those people have kids and they're playing games for your entertainment! Sure they get Ad revenue, but they go through a lot of shit to get it (re: Destiny and the DDOS incidents -.- that sucks). And two, for a short amount of time, I can buy access to the 'best' minds of the game. If I really want to grow as a competitive player, I'd try to confirm my understanding of the game by talking it out with them, and maybe try to beat them.
In most other cases, I agree with it being ridiculous to hire somebody to work on simple things. If somebody has spare change with no free time, hire a personal trainer. If that same person has time AND money, just play it out, read the forums, and find some friends.
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i would honestly pay for coaching just to hang out with that player for an hour more than coaching itself.
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On July 28 2011 04:02 N3rV[Green] wrote:
You are not alone sir, I also do not understand why anybody would pay more money to play this game.....I mean, some circumstances would allow the buying of multiple accounts depending on your need (I.E. progamer that needs to have access to all servers)
But for the average joe diamond, coaching, or even buying a second account seems incredibly silly to me.
Agreed, but it is there money so they'll do what they see fit.
I certainly remember coaching for free in BW and I did a whole lot of it.
On July 28 2011 04:54 Ruyguy wrote:
i would honestly pay for coaching just to hang out with that player for an hour more than coaching itself.
That was never a problem either. Heck I used to manage a lot of them.
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A fan culture evolved in Starcraft that is unmatched to any other computer game. Fans seek closeness to their idols and coaching is one option they can achieve it.
It's not talked about in public but many customers sit naked in front of the PC and touch themselves while getting coached.
If you were spiteful you could say that Starcraft coaches are whores.
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On July 28 2011 03:58 urasheep wrote:
While on the topic of coaching, I find it ridiculous anyone would pay anything more then $5 an hour for coaching. Do you think your coaches payed someone $50 an hour for advice? Probably not.
Anyways, this blog isn't meant to diss "coaches." I just want to know why people would pay someone $50/hour to do something they can do themselves.
I don't know where you are from or how old you are - which affects the view on money - but for me as a 30yo with a steady income, $5 is a very low amount. Even if it is tax free, it is too low to make a decent living off. I could never with good conscience take up someones time for that amount.
$50 might feel a bit on the high side for me. But I also recognize that some people have worked hard for a very long to get where they are (in Starcraft), and this is a vital part of their income. For a highly trained specialist to take time from his day to help me out, I would value it pretty highly, if I were to look for coaching.
And I guess there are plenty of people out there like me - who are busy with work, make a decent amount of money, and want to invest some of it into the community by using coaches instead of spending the extra hours required to figure the same thing on their own.
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Why are you poor?
But seriously, for some people the money is not a big deal, it's the equivalent of buying a soda or something. Would you pay $1/hr for coaching? $.1? Well, that's how much it feels like to them. Not all students, but enough to provide a market. A few people have paid IdrA, right?
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My guess is they pay for coaching because they want accelerated progress in their skill development, and they have some extra money to spend on it.
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Yea usually coaching helps you get better at something much quicker and more efficiently. The only example I can use from personal experience is wrestling/ jiu jitsu. The techniques used in wrestling or jiu jitsu can be learned by yourself but a coach will help you learn how to ACTUALLY do that technique, where your hands and feet should be placed, what are decent followups, etc. I think the same applies with starcraft, you can teach yourself many things, it might be at a slower pace but you can still do it. Coaches in starcraft generally are really good at the game and can point out certain things that might be affecting your gameplay.
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On July 28 2011 04:26 urasheep wrote:
Even though I did have people help me though, I still learned myself, and watched my own replays. You get better game sense when you learn things yourself and figure out why you should do something yourself.
I agree, you definitely learn things a lot better when you're going through the motions yourself. You know, you can do that in a lot of situations...
Take for instance my engineering education. I could have gone through all the books myself, studied the material myself, and passed qualifying tests like the Fundamentals of Engineering exam without paying for five years of undergraduate education. Sounds like a great deal, right? Afterall, I wouldn't have had to put up with all those lousy professors I learned nothing from, anyway.
But would I really be where I am now (second year grad student) without my previous instructors? There were some teachers who completely changed the way I thought about a concept. There were also some teachers who I disagreed with and spent a lot of independent time trying to disprove them. Either way, I would not be here with my present skill-set if it wasn't for the fact I paid highly trained experts to educate me in my chosen field.
Now take SC2. You can start at the ground up and rediscover all the strategies and tricks that have been theory-crafted and practiced a thousand times over. Some people (probably yourself) really enjoy this style of play. Others would rather learn what has already been discovered and use this as a springboard. They can learn about the discoveries through tournament replays, threads on TL, and talking with pro players who probably conceived the strategy themselves. And here lies the demand for coaching. You can spend hundreds of hours engaged in trial and error, or you can spend some money, get all your questions out of the way from a pro coach, and spend the hundreds of hours getting even better. If your goal is improvement the latter seems like the most reasonable solution (unless, of course, your goal is to have fun paving your own way). I may have spent five years under engineering instructors, but they helped me understand over a hundred years of research and developments without having to rediscover them myself.
Next comes the question of "when should I pay for coaching?". This does not have a straightforward answer...
Are you the kind of person who has the most fun rediscovering the wheel? If yes, then coaching is not for you; go have fun!
Are you having trouble getting out of silver league and think a coach will help? They would help, but not as much as practicing your basic strategy and working on macro mechanics. Admittedly, I don't think these people are at a point where pro coaches would make a huge difference.
Will a coach help if you plateau'd in high diamond, have basic macro mechanics down, and need help analyzing your game? For many people, this is a yes. Could you get the insight of a mid-masters friend for free? Yes. Would the pro coach know better than your buddy? Maybe. It all comes down to whether you want to trust a good player for free, or a professional player (who banks their success in the game off their knowledge) for a fee.
Personally, I don't want to reinvent the wheel, so I will use pro replays and analysis available here. I have glaring macro issues that need fixing, and I have plenty of knowledgeable resources who can give me pointers. I won't consider coaching until I have a bunch of questions that don't have satisfactory answers.
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I don't understand it, either. Most of the examples people bring up, like guitar, violin, tennis, require you to contort your body into unnatural stances as a fundamental. Pretty much something like golf require you to assume a stance before you can play. Coaches are helpful there to remind you when you are doing it wrong and proper positioning technique. The only way I can see that happening in Starcraft is if proper positioning of hands and fingers on a keyboard/mouse would help apm. Otherwise, all the information is right there on the Internet.
Now, I understand why professional teams and top amateurs have coaches. I just don't see how bronze and silver league players would benefit from it in Starcraft.
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Why do I pay a university to teach me programming when I could literally google one topic after another and build my own education for free with lots of time, energy and practice? Because I don't have the god damn time to figure out an entire lesson plan and curriculum from scratch, nor would I have someone available to answer my questions, and show me line-by-line what I'm doing wrong, if I get stuck. Duh.
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It's the same reason as people paying to get tutors for calculus. Even though you might not need a calculus tutor, some other people might.
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Same reason people go to college most of the time. It's an easier way of going about things for a lot of people. Can also be more time-efficient.
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Why do people go to school? Just give someone some books, and it'll be so much more satisfying when they figure out how to read on their own!
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From watching Mr bitters 12 weeks there are definitely a lot of good that can come from coaching. 50/hr is outrageous though. But if people pay it more power to the coaches.
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Strangest thing about coaching to me is that the only qualification criteria appears to be "be good at starcraft 2". I'm just thinking that you can be good at the game and be a worthless teacher at the same time.
But if people want to get better and are willing to spend money then I don't see anything wrong with it and even a bad teacher will probably help more than noone at all.
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People have covered it pretty thoroughly, but the economic concept of opportunity cost is a big factor in the decision to get coaching. If we accept the premise that coaches don't give you anything you couldn't get for yourself (something I would dispute, but this fact doesn't really change the outcome of the analysis), there is still a good argument for paying for coaching.
Everyone values money because it provides them the means to do things they enjoy (going out for dinner, a trip to the movies, a nice car, house, etc.). People also value time, because they can spend it doing those things that they enjoy. In order to get better at SC2 (or any hobby, for that matter), you have to spend SOMETHING. That something can be either time, by teaching yourself and slowly improving by analyzing your own replays, or it can be money, by paying a coach to tell you things that, given enough time, you'd figure out yourself.
If I have lots of money but little time, I value money less than I value time, and spending money instead of time to improve provides me with more utility than the other way around. If, however, I have little money but lots of time (which is usually the case with younger people who lack a solid income, but have fewer demands on their time), then it makes perfect sense to spend TIME, rather than MONEY, to improve, because I value money much more than time.
It's a balance that might sway towards the "I value money way more than time" side for you, but lots of people have plenty of cash and less time. We all spend money on our hobbies, and if you enjoy SC2 and improving, spending money makes perfect sense. It may not be the decision that YOU make, but to say that it's nonsensical for others to make that decision is silly.
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Coaching just makes things come faster/easier often times. Though, the only time I'd ever get coaching is when I'm masters league, I don't understand any of the silver/gold/plat level players buying coaching when it's just their mechanics that are really the issue.
One time some guy bought coughing and was in silver league, and he wanted to play against his coworker and Destiny just let the student talk to himself the whole lesson because he really couldn't help him too much, like it's a waste of 50 dollars if you're below diamond/masters in my opinion.
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On July 28 2011 03:58 urasheep wrote:
Starcraft is a game where you can save your replays. I don't understand why anyone would need the help of someone else to get better. You watch your replay, find out where you failed, change your strat up or work on what you're already doing to make it better, and bam, you just coached yourself.
"Find out where you failed."
Many times we are unaware of what we are doing wrong. We can watch our replay over and over, but we won't be able to pinpoint what we did wrong because we don't have the experience to tell us that.
A lot of low level players will say, "Hey, I totally lost this battle, I think my micro is awful," when in reality his macro is awful.
"Change your strat up"
It's not really that easy, especially in practice. A good coach will not only be able to identify your weakness but how to fix it.
I was coaching my brother on weightlifting, but he had problems I never had. When he did squats, his flexibility was horrible. I never had the problem. What do I say? "GO ALL THE WAY DOWN?"
A good coach would be able to identify the core problem and provide cues to fix this. Me, just being a hobbyist weightlifter who was somewhat decent, would never be able to fix it.
Whenever I watch videos of people getting coached, it's usually just simple advice like "make drones, make overlords..," which everyone can do by themselves.
That's on the quality of the coach, not a criticism on coaching.
Supply blocking was a problem for me, but I isolated it by getting a cue... build this structure at this point when you have this much supply and after this building. I practiced it and it went away. My cue might not work for everyone. If I tell people "build this, then build that" I feel like they're not learning.
While on the topic of coaching, I find it ridiculous anyone would pay anything more then $5 an hour for coaching. Do you think your coaches payed someone $50 an hour for advice? Probably not.
Most personal trainers in any industry cost about that much, from language instruction to martial arts to fitness.
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the same reason people pay for porn I guess. why would they pay for that shit when they can just find it for free [but for some reason they do].
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When Tiger Woods was at his peak and was the best golfer in the world.. he still had a coach.
This is no different. People tend to learn faster when there are others there helping them see things you didn't catch yourself.
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While 50$ might be pretty outrageous, coaching for some fees is pretty reasonable. Learning SC2 verbally from another person will help your game tremendously.
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It's always nice to get a second opinion. Yes it is basic advice but coaching happens at all levels. Look at MLG Columbus, after each game you had Tyler(aka Nony) going up to HuK and telling him he did everything right; he just was out of position.
Yeah, the mistakes may be obvious but it's always nice to get a second opinion by someone who knows the game inside and out.
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On July 28 2011 03:58 urasheep wrote:
I don't understand why anyone would need the help of someone else to get better.
Really? Really?
Shit, how do you respond to something like that? Look at every other hobby/sport/activity ever.
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When you hit your personal skill cap you need someone to help you "unlock" the next level.
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What I don't understand is why as say a Platinum player, you wouldn't just get coaching from a high diamond or low master's player. Why do you need coaching from the very best? It's like learning how to play basic tennis from Roger Federer, kinda overkill imo.
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People pay for coaching because it works - someone will learn faster because a good coach can pick up things that the player may miss. It's the same with every sport - tennis, golf, etc.
On July 28 2011 06:31 andrewlt wrote:
I don't understand it, either. Most of the examples people bring up, like guitar, violin, tennis, require you to contort your body into unnatural stances as a fundamental. Pretty much something like golf require you to assume a stance before you can play. Coaches are helpful there to remind you when you are doing it wrong and proper positioning technique. The only way I can see that happening in Starcraft is if proper positioning of hands and fingers on a keyboard/mouse would help apm. Otherwise, all the information is right there on the Internet.
Now, I understand why professional teams and top amateurs have coaches. I just don't see how bronze and silver league players would benefit from it in Starcraft.
It's no different in SC2 compared to other sports. There are fundamentals in SC2 as well.
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I think some people pay just to socialize with the pros. Would you pay 50 bucks an hour to hang out with Derek Jeter or Peyton Manning?
I know many people who pay 200 bucks just to watch the stars from the cheap seats in person.
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The question isn't phrased very well. Like many here said; you've already made your mind, and you're not going to change your viewpoint. So why even bother asking? You'll just dig in your heels if you see anything from anyone which runs contrary to what you believe.
OP, are you pro? By "pro", let's take IdrA's defintion, which means:
You play this game to earn a living. This is your sole means of income. If you don't win, you don't eat.
I'm guessing you're not - or you wouldn't asking this question in the first place. Why did IdrA train in Korea? Why does Huk? Jinro? Ask yourself, why they couldn't just train from home. Because your assertion is, why does anyone need help of any kind, when you can just learn on your own?
Why do teams have coaches?
Yes there are plenty of self-taught people. Does that mean that self-help is absolutely for everyone on this planet? What do you have against money changing hands? Is that your real problem? Why would you pay someone to make a burger for you, when you could do it yourself(and better, right?).
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EPT
