• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 10:23
CEST 16:23
KST 23:23
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
[ASL22] Ro16 Preview: Rough Waters8[ASL22] Ro24 Preview: Siren's Call8[ASL22] Ro24 Preview: Summer's End9Serral wins HomeStory Cup 2915Serral wins Maestros of the Game 244
Community News
Weekly Cups (Aug 30-Sep 7): herO thrives amid growing schism0Official StarCraft website teases new content ahead of BlizzCon?111Stellar Fest TWO the Moon (Dec 16-20)9Weekly Cups (August 24-30): Patches' balance mod takes over3New 3v3 BGH Ladder (and more) on ShieldBattery!46
StarCraft 2
General
Weekly Cups (Aug 30-Sep 7): herO thrives amid growing schism Nexon wins bid to develop StarCraft IP content, distribute Overwatch mobile game Balance hotfix patch 5.0.16b (July 16) SC4ALL: II Winner Will Earn a Spot at HSC 30! Weekly Cups (August 24-30): Patches' balance mod takes over
Tourneys
Sea Duckling Open (Global, Bronze-Diamond) 2026 GSTL Announcement Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament Stellar Fest TWO the Moon (Dec 16-20) IntoTheTV X SOOP SC2 League : Weekly & Monthly
Strategy
[G] Having the right mentality to improve
Custom Maps
Nexus Wars 2021 GUIDE [M] (2) Industrial Park
External Content
Mutation # 542 The Ascended Mutation # 541 Binary Choice The PondCast: SC2 News & Results Mutation # 540 Dodge This
Brood War
General
Pros React To: Calm's Big Brain Play Vs Mini Official StarCraft website teases new content ahead of BlizzCon? New 3v3 BGH Ladder (and more) on ShieldBattery! ASL22 General Discussion BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/
Tourneys
[ASL22] Ro16 Group B [ASL22] Ro16 Group A [ASL22] Ro24 Group F [Megathread] Daily Proleagues
Strategy
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Odyssey Mineral Stack Saturation Replay Review Process - What do you do? Game Theory for Starcraft
Other Games
General Games
EVE Corporation Nintendo Switch Thread Diablo IV [Maplestory Hardcore] Let's Play~!! General RTS Discussion Thread
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
[TL LoL EUW IHs] Teemo shall perish TSM pausing esports and CLG Dead
Heroes of the Storm
Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Power Rank TL Mafia Community Thread NeO.D_StephenKing vs This Guy From 1 Million Dance
Community
General
Russo-Ukrainian War Thread US Politics Mega-thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine UK Politics Mega-thread Artificial Intelligence Thread
Fan Clubs
MarineLorD Fan Club The Creator Fan Club The ShoWTimE Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
Movie Discussion! Anime Discussion Thread
Sports
Football (Soccer) Thread TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 MLB/Baseball 2023
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
The Automated Ban List Northern Ireland Global Starcraft
Blogs
F* the Children and Get Off …
TrAiDoS
Dreaming of BW patches (mod…
c3rberUs
Regacy Esports: The Bh…
regacyesports
LOCKPICKING NOOB
LUCKY_NOOB
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 7351 users

Ladder Blog #8

Blogs > neobowman
Post a Reply
neobowman
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
Canada3324 Posts
July 25 2011 21:37 GMT
#1
Just got back from a two day trip (left Friday morning got back Sunday afternoon) and started laddering again. Took me some time to readjust and I hovered between rank 10 and 8 for quite a while but I think I've pretty practiced now.

+ Show Spoiler [ZvT] +
Tal'darim altar is a really unique map in many regards. As a mapper, when it was first released as a test map, I hated it. Way too Zerg favoured (or so I thought), what with its huge distances and wide open expansion layout. I considered it one of the worst maps out of the pack.

Now, it's not so much imbalanced, but it's still a really unique map compared to the Blizzard maps. I don't think this is a bad thing at all (since blizzard maps suck) but it forces me to handle with some unusual stuff that I don't have to deal with on other maps.

My problem of the day is dealing with Hellion openings. On most maps, I just deal with them using speedlings. If that doesn't work, I add more speedlings. I only go roaches if I see blue flame. On Tal'darim, the problem is that you can't block the ramp with two queens and the natural is really wide open. On most maps, Terran don't go extreme heavy hellions to open because they know that even if they kill all my speedlings, they won't be able to get up the ramp and two spine crawlers protect the natural so they'll have a bunch of hellions that are relatively useless.

On Tal'darim, hellions run around to the back of the natural, terrorize my drones, then when they're done, they just run into my main. They're in such numbers that they can even take out my queens.

It seems I'm at an impasse. Basically, I'm forced to go roaches.

I've experimented around with some timings. I haven't had many games to test (since it's a specific matchup and map). The first time I tried roaches, I got it around 30 supply I think, and they popped way too late to defend against the harass. I fended it off eventually but was defeated by a later push.

Next game I got to test, I put down my roach warren as soon as I saw the reactor and the factory. I think the timing was alright but I messed up the rest of my build because of it. I expected Blue flame since I saw a techlab factory and reactor barracks and a hellion early on (Thought he'd switch the rax and fac when blue flame finished). Turns out he was just going for a massive tank marine push off of one base and I got rolled.

I think I have the roach timing down, but I have to figure out scouting better. It's seriously practically impossible, which is why I hate ZvT.


+ Show Spoiler [ZvZ] +
So I've basically decided how I'm going to deal with things. On maps where the ramp is blockable and I can scout his natural relatively early for certain (Xel'Naga, Metal, Shattered), I'll be going for the 15 pool spine crawler opening. On other maps (Tal'Darim, Scrap Station), I'll go line/bane. The logic is, if I can see if he's going early expo and ling/bane has a chance to completely fail, then i should go safe and play econ. Otherwise, ling/bane is so powerful that I don't want to bother.

With the spine crawler opening against FE, I've thought on how to take advantage of my early gas lead to defend against any mass ling attacks. I've been thinking of using a baneling defense while expanding. I can't afford to fall too far behind but at the same time, I want to play safe. I think this is the best choice for now. In other situations, I'll probably still be going speedling muta, though I want to see if I can expand at the same time. Maybe, maybe not. I haven't had many test games for this so far.


+ Show Spoiler [ZvP] +
This has been my stable matchup for a while now. Other than random 3 gate pressure killing me and stupid 4 gate all-ins, I think I'm pretty solid. My late-game's getting better every time I play.

I think my issue is when to transition out of ling/bane muta. I need to get to ultras. The earlier the better since they're so powerful. That timing will probably sort itself out once I get around to it but there's another problem too. If the Toss adds a few immortals, suddenly the ultras suck hard. Thus, I tried out Broodlords.

I HAAAATE BROODLORDS.

Let me repeat, I HAAAAAATE BROODLORDS.

They're so slow, vulnurable, and require far too much babysitting. Sure they can take down entire bases but doesn't matter if the Toss is taking out my bases at ten times the speed.

So I need to find a way to deal with immortals while going ultras. The best option is probably infestors with neural parasite but that means I'll only be going for a few ultralisks so I can afford the gas for the infestors. That said, that doesn't mean it's going to be terrible. Infestors are pretty good after all, but I'll have to learn how to use them first. They feel clunky to me, as I said before. I suppose it'll be a good learning experience.


[image loading]

I have to leave on a mission trip to Nicaragua on the 28th so I'll be taking another long break from SC2. Will have at least one more entry before I go though.

Blog #1
Blog #2
Blog #3
Blog #4
Blog #5
Blog #6
Blog #7

andeh
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
United States904 Posts
July 25 2011 21:50 GMT
#2
gsl created tal darim, not blizzard.

blizzard did change it though, by adding rocks, 1 geyser, and 1 mineral patch at the third
neobowman
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
Canada3324 Posts
July 25 2011 22:33 GMT
#3
Umm, yeah, didn't I make it clear in the post?

And I dislike the edits Blizz made to it, for the record.
Soluhwin
Profile Joined October 2010
United States1287 Posts
July 25 2011 23:28 GMT
#4
Blizzard also widened both the main to nat choke and the choke outside of the nat. Why they would even bother to do this is beyond me as it takes more than 3 3x3 buildings to wall it so forge expanding is super risky, riskier than it should be. The rocks also mean that if a protoss denies a zerg expansion in any way (pylon block, cannon rush, etc.) then the zerg basically loses because there is no where to re-locate to.
I put the sexy in dyslexia.
Itsmedudeman
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States19229 Posts
July 25 2011 23:46 GMT
#5
I think you should practice using speedlings and building placements more to stop helions on TD, and I think it's perfectly viable. Focus all your efforts on just not letting the helions get anywhere close to the entrance through your nat by having your spines positioned actually further from your natural hatch and also have an evolution chamber and queens blocking while your lings are positioned to intercept any helions that try to go through the spines. If you have any holes make sure the spines and lings will both be able to attack them there, and if you hide your speedlings you can really punish them for making the wrong decision.

I just don't feel changing your style when the style you like is perfectly viable is the best choice(unless they go blue flames then you should probably definitely get roaches).
neobowman
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
Canada3324 Posts
July 26 2011 01:57 GMT
#6
On July 26 2011 08:46 Itsmedudeman wrote:
I think you should practice using speedlings and building placements more to stop helions on TD, and I think it's perfectly viable. Focus all your efforts on just not letting the helions get anywhere close to the entrance through your nat by having your spines positioned actually further from your natural hatch and also have an evolution chamber and queens blocking while your lings are positioned to intercept any helions that try to go through the spines. If you have any holes make sure the spines and lings will both be able to attack them there, and if you hide your speedlings you can really punish them for making the wrong decision.

I just don't feel changing your style when the style you like is perfectly viable is the best choice(unless they go blue flames then you should probably definitely get roaches).


Hmm, I'll give it a try. I've found that since I go 15/15 speedling expand, my natural hatchery creep comes out too slow to get good building placement, but if I try blocking the south side, there might be something I could do.
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
GSL
11:00
2026 GSTL: Main Stage Day 5
IntoTheiNu 910
CranKy Ducklings SOOP178
Rex36
LiquipediaDiscussion
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
SHIN 120
Maru 74
Classic 36
Rex 36
herO (SOOP) 29
Trap 28
Zoun (SOOP) 19
Solar (SOOP) 6
StarCraft: Brood War
Britney 57934
Calm 5705
Bisu 1764
ggaemo 1573
EffOrt 1325
Light 415
Rush 306
Mini 282
actioN 251
Stork 228
[ Show more ]
Soulkey 191
Snow 161
Larva 145
Hyun 144
hero 124
Mind 82
Sea.KH 75
Barracks 64
Sharp 54
ToSsGirL 53
soO 35
Aegong 25
Terrorterran 24
HiyA 19
SilentControl 18
Shine 18
Rock 13
Yoon 6
Dota 2
qojqva3465
Dendi1726
420jenkins390
syndereN371
Counter-Strike
markeloff323
edward94
Super Smash Bros
hungrybox653
Other Games
hiko883
B2W.Neo872
Lowko425
crisheroes306
XaKoH 296
Hui .259
Liquid`VortiX253
Liquid`RaSZi56
QueenE51
ArmadaUGS46
Trikslyr9
Organizations
Other Games
BasetradeTV21
Algost 7
[ Show 13 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• StrangeGG 80
• Gemini_19 3
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• Migwel
StarCraft: Brood War
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
League of Legends
• Jankos1973
• Nemesis1885
• TFBlade590
Upcoming Events
PiGosaur Cup
9h 37m
Kung Fu Cup
20h 37m
Replay Cast
1d 9h
The PondCast
1d 19h
KCM Race Survival
1d 19h
Escore
2 days
IntoTheTV X SOOP
2 days
CranKy Ducklings
3 days
Sparkling Tuna Cup
4 days
Shopify Rebellion Sundays
5 days
Spirit vs Mixu
Clem vs TBD
[ Show More ]
RSL Revival
5 days
Replay Cast
5 days
Afreeca Starleague
5 days
WardiTV Weekly
5 days
Afreeca Starleague
6 days
GSL
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Proleague 2026-09-02
PiG Sty Festival 8.0
Big Dog Cup 2026 Div 1

Ongoing

KCM Race Survival 2026 Season 3
K-JUNGMAN
ASL Season 22
Super Anchor Qualifying S3
CSL 2026 AUTUMN (S22)
Acropolis #5
Acropolis #5 - TRS
RSL Revival: Season 6
Calamity Invitational
FISSURE Playground #3
BLAST Open Fall 2026
Esports World Cup 2026
BLAST Bounty Summer 2026
BLAST Bounty Summer Qual
Stake Ranked Episode 3
XSE Pro League 2026

Upcoming

Escore Tournament S3: King of Kings
Acropolis #5 - GSA
Blizzard Classic Cup 2026
Acropolis #5 - GSB
Acropolis #5 - GSC
SC4ALL II: Brood War
HSC XXX
Stellar Fest 2: Lunar Cup
SC4ALL II: StarCraft II
Kung Fu Cup 2026 Grand Finals
RSL Offline Finals
Stake Ranked Episode 6
BLAST Rivals Fall 2026
IEM Beijing 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 5
PGL Masters Bucharest 2026
1win Private Club #2
Thunderpick World Champ. '26
ESL Pro League Season 24
Stake Ranked Episode 4
1win Private Club #1
Logitech G Play Connect 2026
SL StarSeries Fall 2026
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2026 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.