• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 20:18
CEST 02:18
KST 09:18
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
[ASL19] Finals Recap: Standing Tall10HomeStory Cup 27 - Info & Preview18Classic wins Code S Season 2 (2025)16Code S RO4 & Finals Preview: herO, Rogue, Classic, GuMiho0TL Team Map Contest #5: Presented by Monster Energy6
Community News
Weekly Cups (June 30 - July 6): Classic Doubles2[BSL20] Non-Korean Championship 4x BSL + 4x China9Flash Announces Hiatus From ASL66Weekly Cups (June 23-29): Reynor in world title form?14FEL Cracov 2025 (July 27) - $8000 live event22
StarCraft 2
General
The GOAT ranking of GOAT rankings The SCII GOAT: A statistical Evaluation Weekly Cups (June 23-29): Reynor in world title form? Weekly Cups (June 30 - July 6): Classic Doubles Program: SC2 / XSplit / OBS Scene Switcher
Tourneys
RSL: Revival, a new crowdfunded tournament series FEL Cracov 2025 (July 27) - $8000 live event Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament WardiTV Mondays Korean Starcraft League Week 77
Strategy
How did i lose this ZvP, whats the proper response Simple Questions Simple Answers
Custom Maps
[UMS] Zillion Zerglings
External Content
Mutation # 481 Fear and Lava Mutation # 480 Moths to the Flame Mutation # 479 Worn Out Welcome Mutation # 478 Instant Karma
Brood War
General
BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ ASL20 Preliminary Maps [ASL19] Finals Recap: Standing Tall SC uni coach streams logging into betting site Flash Announces Hiatus From ASL
Tourneys
[BSL20] Non-Korean Championship 4x BSL + 4x China [BSL20] Grand Finals - Sunday 20:00 CET CSL Xiamen International Invitational The Casual Games of the Week Thread
Strategy
Simple Questions, Simple Answers I am doing this better than progamers do.
Other Games
General Games
Nintendo Switch Thread Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Path of Exile What do you want from future RTS games? Beyond All Reason
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread Vanilla Mini Mafia
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Summer Games Done Quick 2025! Russo-Ukrainian War Thread Stop Killing Games - European Citizens Initiative Summer Games Done Quick 2024!
Fan Clubs
SKT1 Classic Fan Club! Maru Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
Anime Discussion Thread [Manga] One Piece [\m/] Heavy Metal Thread
Sports
Formula 1 Discussion 2024 - 2025 Football Thread NBA General Discussion TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 NHL Playoffs 2024
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
The Automated Ban List
Blogs
Culture Clash in Video Games…
TrAiDoS
from making sc maps to makin…
Husyelt
Blog #2
tankgirl
StarCraft improvement
iopq
Trip to the Zoo
micronesia
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 667 users

Ladder Blog #8

Blogs > neobowman
Post a Reply
neobowman
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
Canada3324 Posts
July 25 2011 21:37 GMT
#1
Just got back from a two day trip (left Friday morning got back Sunday afternoon) and started laddering again. Took me some time to readjust and I hovered between rank 10 and 8 for quite a while but I think I've pretty practiced now.

+ Show Spoiler [ZvT] +
Tal'darim altar is a really unique map in many regards. As a mapper, when it was first released as a test map, I hated it. Way too Zerg favoured (or so I thought), what with its huge distances and wide open expansion layout. I considered it one of the worst maps out of the pack.

Now, it's not so much imbalanced, but it's still a really unique map compared to the Blizzard maps. I don't think this is a bad thing at all (since blizzard maps suck) but it forces me to handle with some unusual stuff that I don't have to deal with on other maps.

My problem of the day is dealing with Hellion openings. On most maps, I just deal with them using speedlings. If that doesn't work, I add more speedlings. I only go roaches if I see blue flame. On Tal'darim, the problem is that you can't block the ramp with two queens and the natural is really wide open. On most maps, Terran don't go extreme heavy hellions to open because they know that even if they kill all my speedlings, they won't be able to get up the ramp and two spine crawlers protect the natural so they'll have a bunch of hellions that are relatively useless.

On Tal'darim, hellions run around to the back of the natural, terrorize my drones, then when they're done, they just run into my main. They're in such numbers that they can even take out my queens.

It seems I'm at an impasse. Basically, I'm forced to go roaches.

I've experimented around with some timings. I haven't had many games to test (since it's a specific matchup and map). The first time I tried roaches, I got it around 30 supply I think, and they popped way too late to defend against the harass. I fended it off eventually but was defeated by a later push.

Next game I got to test, I put down my roach warren as soon as I saw the reactor and the factory. I think the timing was alright but I messed up the rest of my build because of it. I expected Blue flame since I saw a techlab factory and reactor barracks and a hellion early on (Thought he'd switch the rax and fac when blue flame finished). Turns out he was just going for a massive tank marine push off of one base and I got rolled.

I think I have the roach timing down, but I have to figure out scouting better. It's seriously practically impossible, which is why I hate ZvT.


+ Show Spoiler [ZvZ] +
So I've basically decided how I'm going to deal with things. On maps where the ramp is blockable and I can scout his natural relatively early for certain (Xel'Naga, Metal, Shattered), I'll be going for the 15 pool spine crawler opening. On other maps (Tal'Darim, Scrap Station), I'll go line/bane. The logic is, if I can see if he's going early expo and ling/bane has a chance to completely fail, then i should go safe and play econ. Otherwise, ling/bane is so powerful that I don't want to bother.

With the spine crawler opening against FE, I've thought on how to take advantage of my early gas lead to defend against any mass ling attacks. I've been thinking of using a baneling defense while expanding. I can't afford to fall too far behind but at the same time, I want to play safe. I think this is the best choice for now. In other situations, I'll probably still be going speedling muta, though I want to see if I can expand at the same time. Maybe, maybe not. I haven't had many test games for this so far.


+ Show Spoiler [ZvP] +
This has been my stable matchup for a while now. Other than random 3 gate pressure killing me and stupid 4 gate all-ins, I think I'm pretty solid. My late-game's getting better every time I play.

I think my issue is when to transition out of ling/bane muta. I need to get to ultras. The earlier the better since they're so powerful. That timing will probably sort itself out once I get around to it but there's another problem too. If the Toss adds a few immortals, suddenly the ultras suck hard. Thus, I tried out Broodlords.

I HAAAATE BROODLORDS.

Let me repeat, I HAAAAAATE BROODLORDS.

They're so slow, vulnurable, and require far too much babysitting. Sure they can take down entire bases but doesn't matter if the Toss is taking out my bases at ten times the speed.

So I need to find a way to deal with immortals while going ultras. The best option is probably infestors with neural parasite but that means I'll only be going for a few ultralisks so I can afford the gas for the infestors. That said, that doesn't mean it's going to be terrible. Infestors are pretty good after all, but I'll have to learn how to use them first. They feel clunky to me, as I said before. I suppose it'll be a good learning experience.


[image loading]

I have to leave on a mission trip to Nicaragua on the 28th so I'll be taking another long break from SC2. Will have at least one more entry before I go though.

Blog #1
Blog #2
Blog #3
Blog #4
Blog #5
Blog #6
Blog #7

andeh
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
United States904 Posts
July 25 2011 21:50 GMT
#2
gsl created tal darim, not blizzard.

blizzard did change it though, by adding rocks, 1 geyser, and 1 mineral patch at the third
neobowman
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
Canada3324 Posts
July 25 2011 22:33 GMT
#3
Umm, yeah, didn't I make it clear in the post?

And I dislike the edits Blizz made to it, for the record.
Soluhwin
Profile Joined October 2010
United States1287 Posts
July 25 2011 23:28 GMT
#4
Blizzard also widened both the main to nat choke and the choke outside of the nat. Why they would even bother to do this is beyond me as it takes more than 3 3x3 buildings to wall it so forge expanding is super risky, riskier than it should be. The rocks also mean that if a protoss denies a zerg expansion in any way (pylon block, cannon rush, etc.) then the zerg basically loses because there is no where to re-locate to.
I put the sexy in dyslexia.
Itsmedudeman
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States19229 Posts
July 25 2011 23:46 GMT
#5
I think you should practice using speedlings and building placements more to stop helions on TD, and I think it's perfectly viable. Focus all your efforts on just not letting the helions get anywhere close to the entrance through your nat by having your spines positioned actually further from your natural hatch and also have an evolution chamber and queens blocking while your lings are positioned to intercept any helions that try to go through the spines. If you have any holes make sure the spines and lings will both be able to attack them there, and if you hide your speedlings you can really punish them for making the wrong decision.

I just don't feel changing your style when the style you like is perfectly viable is the best choice(unless they go blue flames then you should probably definitely get roaches).
neobowman
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
Canada3324 Posts
July 26 2011 01:57 GMT
#6
On July 26 2011 08:46 Itsmedudeman wrote:
I think you should practice using speedlings and building placements more to stop helions on TD, and I think it's perfectly viable. Focus all your efforts on just not letting the helions get anywhere close to the entrance through your nat by having your spines positioned actually further from your natural hatch and also have an evolution chamber and queens blocking while your lings are positioned to intercept any helions that try to go through the spines. If you have any holes make sure the spines and lings will both be able to attack them there, and if you hide your speedlings you can really punish them for making the wrong decision.

I just don't feel changing your style when the style you like is perfectly viable is the best choice(unless they go blue flames then you should probably definitely get roaches).


Hmm, I'll give it a try. I've found that since I go 15/15 speedling expand, my natural hatchery creep comes out too slow to get good building placement, but if I try blocking the south side, there might be something I could do.
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Replay Cast
00:00
Korean StarCraft League #77
CranKy Ducklings47
Liquipedia
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
PiGStarcraft397
JuggernautJason177
Livibee 85
ProTech59
Vindicta 10
StarCraft: Brood War
MaD[AoV]61
Bale 6
Icarus 2
Dota 2
NeuroSwarm119
monkeys_forever35
League of Legends
JimRising 504
Counter-Strike
summit1g10446
tarik_tv4791
taco 632
sgares169
Super Smash Bros
Mew2King145
Other Games
Grubby1890
shahzam893
Maynarde156
ToD18
Organizations
Other Games
gamesdonequick50066
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 21 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• davetesta37
• HeavenSC 6
• Mapu1
• IndyKCrew
• sooper7s
• Migwel
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Kozan
StarCraft: Brood War
• Eskiya23 31
• Pr0nogo 2
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
• BSLYoutube
League of Legends
• Jankos1835
• TFBlade715
• Stunt223
Other Games
• Shiphtur794
• WagamamaTV202
• Scarra0
Upcoming Events
Sparkling Tuna Cup
9h 42m
WardiTV European League
15h 42m
MaNa vs sebesdes
Mixu vs Fjant
ByuN vs HeRoMaRinE
ShoWTimE vs goblin
Gerald vs Babymarine
Krystianer vs YoungYakov
PiGosaur Monday
23h 42m
The PondCast
1d 9h
WardiTV European League
1d 11h
Jumy vs NightPhoenix
Percival vs Nicoract
ArT vs HiGhDrA
MaxPax vs Harstem
Scarlett vs Shameless
SKillous vs uThermal
uThermal 2v2 Circuit
1d 15h
Replay Cast
1d 23h
RSL Revival
2 days
ByuN vs SHIN
Clem vs Reynor
Replay Cast
2 days
RSL Revival
3 days
Classic vs Cure
[ Show More ]
FEL
3 days
RSL Revival
4 days
FEL
4 days
FEL
4 days
CSO Cup
4 days
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
4 days
Bonyth vs QiaoGege
Dewalt vs Fengzi
Hawk vs Zhanhun
Sziky vs Mihu
Mihu vs QiaoGege
Zhanhun vs Sziky
Fengzi vs Hawk
Sparkling Tuna Cup
5 days
RSL Revival
5 days
FEL
5 days
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
5 days
Bonyth vs Dewalt
QiaoGege vs Dewalt
Hawk vs Bonyth
Sziky vs Fengzi
Mihu vs Zhanhun
QiaoGege vs Zhanhun
Fengzi vs Mihu
Liquipedia Results

Completed

BSL Season 20
HSC XXVII
Heroes 10 EU

Ongoing

JPL Season 2
BSL 2v2 Season 3
Acropolis #3
KCM Race Survival 2025 Season 2
CSL 17: 2025 SUMMER
Copa Latinoamericana 4
Jiahua Invitational
Championship of Russia 2025
RSL Revival: Season 1
Murky Cup #2
BLAST.tv Austin Major 2025
ESL Impact League Season 7
IEM Dallas 2025
PGL Astana 2025
Asian Champions League '25
BLAST Rivals Spring 2025
MESA Nomadic Masters
CCT Season 2 Global Finals
IEM Melbourne 2025

Upcoming

2025 ACS Season 2: Qualifier
CSLPRO Last Chance 2025
CSL Xiamen Invitational
2025 ACS Season 2
CSLPRO Chat StarLAN 3
K-Championship
uThermal 2v2 Main Event
SEL Season 2 Championship
FEL Cracov 2025
Esports World Cup 2025
StarSeries Fall 2025
FISSURE Playground #2
BLAST Open Fall 2025
BLAST Open Fall Qual
Esports World Cup 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall Qual
IEM Cologne 2025
FISSURE Playground #1
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.