• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 16:48
CEST 22:48
KST 05:48
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
TL.net Map Contest #22 - Voting & Ladder Map Selection2Code S Season 2 (2026) - RO8 Preview5[ASL21] Finals Preview: Two Legacies21Code S Season 2 (2026) - RO12 Preview2herO wins GSL Code S Season 1 (2026)7
Community News
StarCraft II 5.0.16 PTR Patch Notes may 26th120Weekly Cups (May 18-25): MaxPax wins doubles0Crank Gathers Season 4: BW vs SC2 Team League5Weekly Cups (May 11-17): Classic wins double1Code S Season 1 (2026) - RO8 Results2
StarCraft 2
General
StarCraft II 5.0.16 PTR Patch Notes may 26th TL.net Map Contest #22 - Voting & Ladder Map Selection The death of cheese, from a professional cheeser. Code S Season 2 (2026) - RO8 Preview TL Poll: How do you feel about the 5.0.16 PTR balance changes?
Tourneys
Maestros of The Game 2 announcement and schedule ! RSL Revival: Season 5 - Qualifiers and Main Event Crank Gathers Season 4: BW vs SC2 Team League GSL Code S Season 2 (2026) Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament
Strategy
[G] Having the right mentality to improve
Custom Maps
[D]RTS in all its shapes and glory <3 [A] Nemrods 1/4 players
External Content
The PondCast: SC2 News & Results Mutation # 528 Infection Detected Welcome to the External Content forum Mutation # 527 Hell Train
Brood War
General
Data needed BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ Quality of life changes in BW that you will like ? Soma's ASL Finals Review FlaShFTW vs A.Alm Grudge Match Event
Tourneys
[ASL21] Grand Finals [Megathread] Daily Proleagues Escore Tournament StarCraft Season 2 [BSL22] WB Final & LB Semis - Saturday 21:00 CEST
Strategy
Any training maps people recommend? Muta micro map competition [G] Hydra ZvZ: An Introduction Fighting Spirit mining rates
Other Games
General Games
Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Nintendo Switch Thread Warcraft III: The Frozen Throne ZeroSpace Megathread Path of Exile
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
Vanilla Mini Mafia Mafia Game Mode Feedback/Ideas TL Mafia Community Thread Five o'clock TL Mafia
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Russo-Ukrainian War Thread Trading/Investing Thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine Dating: How's your luck?
Fan Clubs
The herO Fan Club!
Media & Entertainment
[Manga] One Piece Anime Discussion Thread [Req][Books] Good Fantasy/SciFi books
Sports
McBoner: A hockey love story 2024 - 2026 Football Thread TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 Formula 1 Discussion
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread Facing Challenges in Mobile App Development
TL Community
The Automated Ban List
Blogs
Esportsmanship: How to NOT B…
TrAiDoS
Why RTS gamers make better f…
gosubay
ramps on octagon
StaticNine
ASL S21 English Commentary…
namkraft
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 3458 users

Ladder Blog #8

Blogs > neobowman
Post a Reply
neobowman
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
Canada3324 Posts
July 25 2011 21:37 GMT
#1
Just got back from a two day trip (left Friday morning got back Sunday afternoon) and started laddering again. Took me some time to readjust and I hovered between rank 10 and 8 for quite a while but I think I've pretty practiced now.

+ Show Spoiler [ZvT] +
Tal'darim altar is a really unique map in many regards. As a mapper, when it was first released as a test map, I hated it. Way too Zerg favoured (or so I thought), what with its huge distances and wide open expansion layout. I considered it one of the worst maps out of the pack.

Now, it's not so much imbalanced, but it's still a really unique map compared to the Blizzard maps. I don't think this is a bad thing at all (since blizzard maps suck) but it forces me to handle with some unusual stuff that I don't have to deal with on other maps.

My problem of the day is dealing with Hellion openings. On most maps, I just deal with them using speedlings. If that doesn't work, I add more speedlings. I only go roaches if I see blue flame. On Tal'darim, the problem is that you can't block the ramp with two queens and the natural is really wide open. On most maps, Terran don't go extreme heavy hellions to open because they know that even if they kill all my speedlings, they won't be able to get up the ramp and two spine crawlers protect the natural so they'll have a bunch of hellions that are relatively useless.

On Tal'darim, hellions run around to the back of the natural, terrorize my drones, then when they're done, they just run into my main. They're in such numbers that they can even take out my queens.

It seems I'm at an impasse. Basically, I'm forced to go roaches.

I've experimented around with some timings. I haven't had many games to test (since it's a specific matchup and map). The first time I tried roaches, I got it around 30 supply I think, and they popped way too late to defend against the harass. I fended it off eventually but was defeated by a later push.

Next game I got to test, I put down my roach warren as soon as I saw the reactor and the factory. I think the timing was alright but I messed up the rest of my build because of it. I expected Blue flame since I saw a techlab factory and reactor barracks and a hellion early on (Thought he'd switch the rax and fac when blue flame finished). Turns out he was just going for a massive tank marine push off of one base and I got rolled.

I think I have the roach timing down, but I have to figure out scouting better. It's seriously practically impossible, which is why I hate ZvT.


+ Show Spoiler [ZvZ] +
So I've basically decided how I'm going to deal with things. On maps where the ramp is blockable and I can scout his natural relatively early for certain (Xel'Naga, Metal, Shattered), I'll be going for the 15 pool spine crawler opening. On other maps (Tal'Darim, Scrap Station), I'll go line/bane. The logic is, if I can see if he's going early expo and ling/bane has a chance to completely fail, then i should go safe and play econ. Otherwise, ling/bane is so powerful that I don't want to bother.

With the spine crawler opening against FE, I've thought on how to take advantage of my early gas lead to defend against any mass ling attacks. I've been thinking of using a baneling defense while expanding. I can't afford to fall too far behind but at the same time, I want to play safe. I think this is the best choice for now. In other situations, I'll probably still be going speedling muta, though I want to see if I can expand at the same time. Maybe, maybe not. I haven't had many test games for this so far.


+ Show Spoiler [ZvP] +
This has been my stable matchup for a while now. Other than random 3 gate pressure killing me and stupid 4 gate all-ins, I think I'm pretty solid. My late-game's getting better every time I play.

I think my issue is when to transition out of ling/bane muta. I need to get to ultras. The earlier the better since they're so powerful. That timing will probably sort itself out once I get around to it but there's another problem too. If the Toss adds a few immortals, suddenly the ultras suck hard. Thus, I tried out Broodlords.

I HAAAATE BROODLORDS.

Let me repeat, I HAAAAAATE BROODLORDS.

They're so slow, vulnurable, and require far too much babysitting. Sure they can take down entire bases but doesn't matter if the Toss is taking out my bases at ten times the speed.

So I need to find a way to deal with immortals while going ultras. The best option is probably infestors with neural parasite but that means I'll only be going for a few ultralisks so I can afford the gas for the infestors. That said, that doesn't mean it's going to be terrible. Infestors are pretty good after all, but I'll have to learn how to use them first. They feel clunky to me, as I said before. I suppose it'll be a good learning experience.


[image loading]

I have to leave on a mission trip to Nicaragua on the 28th so I'll be taking another long break from SC2. Will have at least one more entry before I go though.

Blog #1
Blog #2
Blog #3
Blog #4
Blog #5
Blog #6
Blog #7

andeh
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
United States904 Posts
July 25 2011 21:50 GMT
#2
gsl created tal darim, not blizzard.

blizzard did change it though, by adding rocks, 1 geyser, and 1 mineral patch at the third
neobowman
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
Canada3324 Posts
July 25 2011 22:33 GMT
#3
Umm, yeah, didn't I make it clear in the post?

And I dislike the edits Blizz made to it, for the record.
Soluhwin
Profile Joined October 2010
United States1287 Posts
July 25 2011 23:28 GMT
#4
Blizzard also widened both the main to nat choke and the choke outside of the nat. Why they would even bother to do this is beyond me as it takes more than 3 3x3 buildings to wall it so forge expanding is super risky, riskier than it should be. The rocks also mean that if a protoss denies a zerg expansion in any way (pylon block, cannon rush, etc.) then the zerg basically loses because there is no where to re-locate to.
I put the sexy in dyslexia.
Itsmedudeman
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States19229 Posts
July 25 2011 23:46 GMT
#5
I think you should practice using speedlings and building placements more to stop helions on TD, and I think it's perfectly viable. Focus all your efforts on just not letting the helions get anywhere close to the entrance through your nat by having your spines positioned actually further from your natural hatch and also have an evolution chamber and queens blocking while your lings are positioned to intercept any helions that try to go through the spines. If you have any holes make sure the spines and lings will both be able to attack them there, and if you hide your speedlings you can really punish them for making the wrong decision.

I just don't feel changing your style when the style you like is perfectly viable is the best choice(unless they go blue flames then you should probably definitely get roaches).
neobowman
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
Canada3324 Posts
July 26 2011 01:57 GMT
#6
On July 26 2011 08:46 Itsmedudeman wrote:
I think you should practice using speedlings and building placements more to stop helions on TD, and I think it's perfectly viable. Focus all your efforts on just not letting the helions get anywhere close to the entrance through your nat by having your spines positioned actually further from your natural hatch and also have an evolution chamber and queens blocking while your lings are positioned to intercept any helions that try to go through the spines. If you have any holes make sure the spines and lings will both be able to attack them there, and if you hide your speedlings you can really punish them for making the wrong decision.

I just don't feel changing your style when the style you like is perfectly viable is the best choice(unless they go blue flames then you should probably definitely get roaches).


Hmm, I'll give it a try. I've found that since I go 15/15 speedling expand, my natural hatchery creep comes out too slow to get good building placement, but if I try blocking the south side, there might be something I could do.
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Monday Night Weeklies
16:00
#54
RotterdaM1292
TaKeTV 407
TKL 387
IndyStarCraft 226
ZombieGrub189
LiquipediaDiscussion
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
ProTech2376
RotterdaM 1292
mouzHeroMarine 449
TKL 387
IndyStarCraft 226
ZombieGrub189
JuggernautJason67
StarCraft: Brood War
Dewaltoss 155
firebathero 90
ajuk12(nOOB) 12
soO 9
NaDa 5
League of Legends
KnowMe138
Counter-Strike
pashabiceps3692
shoxiejesuss2281
apEX1977
fl0m1664
Pyrionflax185
Heroes of the Storm
Liquid`Hasu399
Other Games
Grubby4830
summit1g3763
mouzStarbuck301
UpATreeSC49
Mew2King44
Chillindude29
Organizations
Other Games
BasetradeTV235
Algost 6
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
[ Show 16 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• kabyraGe 256
• intothetv
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• Michael_bg 6
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
Dota 2
• masondota2331
League of Legends
• Lourlo1054
• Stunt289
Other Games
• WagamamaTV468
Upcoming Events
Replay Cast
3h 12m
Sparkling Tuna Cup
13h 12m
WardiTV Spring Champion…
14h 12m
Maestros of the Game
18h 42m
The PondCast
1d 13h
Kung Fu Cup
1d 14h
uThermal 2v2 Circuit
1d 18h
Maestros of the Game
1d 18h
Replay Cast
2 days
Replay Cast
2 days
[ Show More ]
WardiTV Spring Champion…
2 days
Maestros of the Game
2 days
Replay Cast
3 days
uThermal 2v2 Circuit
3 days
Maestros of the Game
3 days
Replay Cast
4 days
Solar vs Classic
uThermal 2v2 Circuit
4 days
GSL
5 days
herO vs Rogue
Maru vs Cure
uThermal 2v2 Circuit
5 days
BSL
5 days
Replay Cast
6 days
Monday Night Weeklies
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

KK 2v2 League Season 1
RSL Revival: Season 5
Heroes Pulsing #1

Ongoing

BSL Season 22
IPSL Spring 2026
KCM Race Survival 2026 Season 2
Acropolis #4
CSCL: Masked Kings S4
YSL S3
SCTL 2026 Spring
WardiTV Spring 2026
Maestros of the Game 2
2026 GSL S2
Murky Cup 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 2
CS Asia Championships 2026
Asian Champions League 2026
IEM Atlanta 2026
PGL Astana 2026
BLAST Rivals Spring 2026
IEM Rio 2026
PGL Bucharest 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 1
BLAST Open Spring 2026

Upcoming

BSL 22 Non-Korean Championship
CSLAN 4
Blizzard Classic Cup 2026
Kung Fu Cup 2026 Grand Finals
CranK Gathers Season 4: BW vs SC2 Team League
HSC XXIX
uThermal 2v2 2026 Main Event
Heroes Pulsing #3
Heroes Pulsing #2
Esports World Cup 2026
BLAST Bounty Summer 2026
BLAST Bounty Summer Qual
Stake Ranked Episode 3
XSE Pro League 2026
IEM Cologne Major 2026
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2026 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.