• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EST 06:55
CET 12:55
KST 20:55
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
ByuL: The Forgotten Master of ZvT24Behind the Blue - Team Liquid History Book16Clem wins HomeStory Cup 289HomeStory Cup 28 - Info & Preview13Rongyi Cup S3 - Preview & Info8
Community News
Weekly Cups (Feb 9-15): herO doubles up2ACS replaced by "ASL Season Open" - Starts 21/0226LiuLi Cup: 2025 Grand Finals (Feb 10-16)46Weekly Cups (Feb 2-8): Classic, Solar, MaxPax win2Nexon's StarCraft game could be FPS, led by UMS maker16
StarCraft 2
General
Liquipedia WCS Portal Launched ByuL: The Forgotten Master of ZvT Kaelaris on the futue of SC2 and much more... How do you think the 5.0.15 balance patch (Oct 2025) for StarCraft II has affected the game? Nexon's StarCraft game could be FPS, led by UMS maker
Tourneys
PIG STY FESTIVAL 7.0! (19 Feb - 1 Mar) How do the "codes" work in GSL? Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament LiuLi Cup: 2025 Grand Finals (Feb 10-16) Master Swan Open (Global Bronze-Master 2)
Strategy
Custom Maps
Map Editor closed ? [A] Starcraft Sound Mod
External Content
Mutation # 513 Attrition Warfare The PondCast: SC2 News & Results Mutation # 512 Overclocked Mutation # 511 Temple of Rebirth
Brood War
General
A new season just kicks off BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ CasterMuse Youtube TvZ is the most complete match up ACS replaced by "ASL Season Open" - Starts 21/02
Tourneys
Escore Tournament StarCraft Season 1 [Megathread] Daily Proleagues Small VOD Thread 2.0 KCM Race Survival 2026 Season 1
Strategy
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Fighting Spirit mining rates Zealot bombing is no longer popular? Current Meta
Other Games
General Games
Nintendo Switch Thread ZeroSpace Megathread Path of Exile Diablo 2 thread Battle Aces/David Kim RTS Megathread
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
Vanilla Mini Mafia TL Mafia Community Thread Mafia Game Mode Feedback/Ideas
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Canadian Politics Mega-thread Russo-Ukrainian War Thread Ask and answer stupid questions here! Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine
Fan Clubs
The IdrA Fan Club The herO Fan Club!
Media & Entertainment
[Req][Books] Good Fantasy/SciFi books [Manga] One Piece Anime Discussion Thread
Sports
2024 - 2026 Football Thread Formula 1 Discussion TL MMA Pick'em Pool 2013
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
TL Community
The Automated Ban List
Blogs
Inside the Communication of …
TrAiDoS
My 2025 Magic: The Gathering…
DARKING
Life Update and thoughts.
FuDDx
How do archons sleep?
8882
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 1858 users

Ladder Blog #8

Blogs > neobowman
Post a Reply
neobowman
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
Canada3324 Posts
July 25 2011 21:37 GMT
#1
Just got back from a two day trip (left Friday morning got back Sunday afternoon) and started laddering again. Took me some time to readjust and I hovered between rank 10 and 8 for quite a while but I think I've pretty practiced now.

+ Show Spoiler [ZvT] +
Tal'darim altar is a really unique map in many regards. As a mapper, when it was first released as a test map, I hated it. Way too Zerg favoured (or so I thought), what with its huge distances and wide open expansion layout. I considered it one of the worst maps out of the pack.

Now, it's not so much imbalanced, but it's still a really unique map compared to the Blizzard maps. I don't think this is a bad thing at all (since blizzard maps suck) but it forces me to handle with some unusual stuff that I don't have to deal with on other maps.

My problem of the day is dealing with Hellion openings. On most maps, I just deal with them using speedlings. If that doesn't work, I add more speedlings. I only go roaches if I see blue flame. On Tal'darim, the problem is that you can't block the ramp with two queens and the natural is really wide open. On most maps, Terran don't go extreme heavy hellions to open because they know that even if they kill all my speedlings, they won't be able to get up the ramp and two spine crawlers protect the natural so they'll have a bunch of hellions that are relatively useless.

On Tal'darim, hellions run around to the back of the natural, terrorize my drones, then when they're done, they just run into my main. They're in such numbers that they can even take out my queens.

It seems I'm at an impasse. Basically, I'm forced to go roaches.

I've experimented around with some timings. I haven't had many games to test (since it's a specific matchup and map). The first time I tried roaches, I got it around 30 supply I think, and they popped way too late to defend against the harass. I fended it off eventually but was defeated by a later push.

Next game I got to test, I put down my roach warren as soon as I saw the reactor and the factory. I think the timing was alright but I messed up the rest of my build because of it. I expected Blue flame since I saw a techlab factory and reactor barracks and a hellion early on (Thought he'd switch the rax and fac when blue flame finished). Turns out he was just going for a massive tank marine push off of one base and I got rolled.

I think I have the roach timing down, but I have to figure out scouting better. It's seriously practically impossible, which is why I hate ZvT.


+ Show Spoiler [ZvZ] +
So I've basically decided how I'm going to deal with things. On maps where the ramp is blockable and I can scout his natural relatively early for certain (Xel'Naga, Metal, Shattered), I'll be going for the 15 pool spine crawler opening. On other maps (Tal'Darim, Scrap Station), I'll go line/bane. The logic is, if I can see if he's going early expo and ling/bane has a chance to completely fail, then i should go safe and play econ. Otherwise, ling/bane is so powerful that I don't want to bother.

With the spine crawler opening against FE, I've thought on how to take advantage of my early gas lead to defend against any mass ling attacks. I've been thinking of using a baneling defense while expanding. I can't afford to fall too far behind but at the same time, I want to play safe. I think this is the best choice for now. In other situations, I'll probably still be going speedling muta, though I want to see if I can expand at the same time. Maybe, maybe not. I haven't had many test games for this so far.


+ Show Spoiler [ZvP] +
This has been my stable matchup for a while now. Other than random 3 gate pressure killing me and stupid 4 gate all-ins, I think I'm pretty solid. My late-game's getting better every time I play.

I think my issue is when to transition out of ling/bane muta. I need to get to ultras. The earlier the better since they're so powerful. That timing will probably sort itself out once I get around to it but there's another problem too. If the Toss adds a few immortals, suddenly the ultras suck hard. Thus, I tried out Broodlords.

I HAAAATE BROODLORDS.

Let me repeat, I HAAAAAATE BROODLORDS.

They're so slow, vulnurable, and require far too much babysitting. Sure they can take down entire bases but doesn't matter if the Toss is taking out my bases at ten times the speed.

So I need to find a way to deal with immortals while going ultras. The best option is probably infestors with neural parasite but that means I'll only be going for a few ultralisks so I can afford the gas for the infestors. That said, that doesn't mean it's going to be terrible. Infestors are pretty good after all, but I'll have to learn how to use them first. They feel clunky to me, as I said before. I suppose it'll be a good learning experience.


[image loading]

I have to leave on a mission trip to Nicaragua on the 28th so I'll be taking another long break from SC2. Will have at least one more entry before I go though.

Blog #1
Blog #2
Blog #3
Blog #4
Blog #5
Blog #6
Blog #7

andeh
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
United States904 Posts
July 25 2011 21:50 GMT
#2
gsl created tal darim, not blizzard.

blizzard did change it though, by adding rocks, 1 geyser, and 1 mineral patch at the third
neobowman
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
Canada3324 Posts
July 25 2011 22:33 GMT
#3
Umm, yeah, didn't I make it clear in the post?

And I dislike the edits Blizz made to it, for the record.
Soluhwin
Profile Joined October 2010
United States1287 Posts
July 25 2011 23:28 GMT
#4
Blizzard also widened both the main to nat choke and the choke outside of the nat. Why they would even bother to do this is beyond me as it takes more than 3 3x3 buildings to wall it so forge expanding is super risky, riskier than it should be. The rocks also mean that if a protoss denies a zerg expansion in any way (pylon block, cannon rush, etc.) then the zerg basically loses because there is no where to re-locate to.
I put the sexy in dyslexia.
Itsmedudeman
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States19229 Posts
July 25 2011 23:46 GMT
#5
I think you should practice using speedlings and building placements more to stop helions on TD, and I think it's perfectly viable. Focus all your efforts on just not letting the helions get anywhere close to the entrance through your nat by having your spines positioned actually further from your natural hatch and also have an evolution chamber and queens blocking while your lings are positioned to intercept any helions that try to go through the spines. If you have any holes make sure the spines and lings will both be able to attack them there, and if you hide your speedlings you can really punish them for making the wrong decision.

I just don't feel changing your style when the style you like is perfectly viable is the best choice(unless they go blue flames then you should probably definitely get roaches).
neobowman
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
Canada3324 Posts
July 26 2011 01:57 GMT
#6
On July 26 2011 08:46 Itsmedudeman wrote:
I think you should practice using speedlings and building placements more to stop helions on TD, and I think it's perfectly viable. Focus all your efforts on just not letting the helions get anywhere close to the entrance through your nat by having your spines positioned actually further from your natural hatch and also have an evolution chamber and queens blocking while your lings are positioned to intercept any helions that try to go through the spines. If you have any holes make sure the spines and lings will both be able to attack them there, and if you hide your speedlings you can really punish them for making the wrong decision.

I just don't feel changing your style when the style you like is perfectly viable is the best choice(unless they go blue flames then you should probably definitely get roaches).


Hmm, I'll give it a try. I've found that since I go 15/15 speedling expand, my natural hatchery creep comes out too slow to get good building placement, but if I try blocking the south side, there might be something I could do.
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
PiG Sty Festival
09:00
Group B
Clem vs Percival
Zoun vs Solar
PiGStarcraft1080
TKL 325
IndyStarCraft 196
Rex154
BRAT_OK 126
Liquipedia
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
PiGStarcraft1080
TKL 325
IndyStarCraft 196
Rex 154
BRAT_OK 126
Lowko47
StarCraft: Brood War
Horang2 6469
Rain 3492
PianO 2303
GuemChi 2170
BeSt 1727
Jaedong 924
Hyuk 455
actioN 326
Light 268
Soma 179
[ Show more ]
Hyun 178
Mini 162
ZerO 133
Dewaltoss 117
Snow 112
Pusan 98
hero 81
ggaemo 78
Mong 75
Killer 72
Aegong 72
Soulkey 72
Rush 62
JYJ 51
Mind 47
Sharp 44
Barracks 43
Nal_rA 36
sSak 32
ToSsGirL 31
Backho 30
JulyZerg 30
[sc1f]eonzerg 24
Free 23
910 23
Icarus 18
GoRush 18
yabsab 17
Hm[arnc] 17
zelot 16
Bale 13
Movie 12
Noble 12
Shine 11
SilentControl 11
NotJumperer 10
ivOry 5
Terrorterran 2
Britney 2
Dota 2
Gorgc2913
XaKoH 529
XcaliburYe55
canceldota5
Counter-Strike
olofmeister2369
zeus1244
m0e_tv434
Other Games
singsing1986
shoxiejesuss829
B2W.Neo527
Fuzer 166
crisheroes140
Happy131
Hui .105
ToD55
Trikslyr24
ZerO(Twitch)16
Organizations
Counter-Strike
PGL29642
Other Games
gamesdonequick634
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 14 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• Response 2
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• escodisco296
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
Dota 2
• WagamamaTV175
League of Legends
• Stunt610
Upcoming Events
Epic.LAN
5m
Big Brain Bouts
5h 5m
Harstem vs MaNa
Reynor vs SKillous
Replay Cast
12h 5m
PiG Sty Festival
21h 5m
herO vs NightMare
Reynor vs Cure
CranKy Ducklings
22h 5m
Epic.LAN
1d
Replay Cast
1d 12h
PiG Sty Festival
1d 21h
Serral vs YoungYakov
ByuN vs ShoWTimE
Sparkling Tuna Cup
1d 22h
Replay Cast
2 days
[ Show More ]
Replay Cast
2 days
Wardi Open
3 days
Monday Night Weeklies
3 days
Replay Cast
3 days
WardiTV Winter Champion…
4 days
Replay Cast
4 days
WardiTV Winter Champion…
5 days
The PondCast
5 days
Replay Cast
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Proleague 2026-02-19
LiuLi Cup: 2025 Grand Finals
Underdog Cup #3

Ongoing

KCM Race Survival 2026 Season 1
Escore Tournament S1: King of Kings
WardiTV Winter 2026
PiG Sty Festival 7.0
Nations Cup 2026
PGL Cluj-Napoca 2026
IEM Kraków 2026
BLAST Bounty Winter 2026
BLAST Bounty Winter Qual
eXTREMESLAND 2025
SL Budapest Major 2025

Upcoming

[S:21] ASL SEASON OPEN 1st Round
[S:21] ASL SEASON OPEN 1st Round Qualifier
Acropolis #4 - TS5
Jeongseon Sooper Cup
Spring Cup 2026: China & Korea Invitational
[S:21] ASL SEASON OPEN 2nd Round
[S:21] ASL SEASON OPEN 2nd Round Qualifier
HSC XXIX
uThermal 2v2 2026 Main Event
Bellum Gens Elite Stara Zagora 2026
RSL Revival: Season 4
BLAST Rivals Spring 2026
CCT Season 3 Global Finals
FISSURE Playground #3
IEM Rio 2026
PGL Bucharest 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 1
BLAST Open Spring 2026
ESL Pro League Season 23
ESL Pro League Season 23
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2026 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.