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I love the community here, and I'd like to give back. However, I'm terrible at Starcraft, so I'm definitely not going to be dispensing advice on that subject.
I know, though, that when I started law school I had about a billion questions about...everything: classroom experience, extracurriculars, internships, interviews, exams, the lot. Now that I'm nearing completion, though, I think I have a pretty good handle on it. Hopefully. I figured I'd give my fellow nerds (many of whom are in high school/undergrad and possibly considering law school) the chance to ask questions about the process of getting there or what it's like once you get there.
For context, I'm a 3L at BU. I'm as yet unemployed following graduation, but I've got about 10 months to get that sorted. I didn't get a 2L summer associate position, so I don't have the luxury of a job offer following this summer. But I'm in the same situtation as the VAST majority of law school students, so I think that might make my advice a little more relevant to the average Joe Potential Law Student.
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Where do you the find the money to pay for law school in america?
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On July 19 2011 23:32 a176 wrote:
Where do you the find the money to pay for law school in america?
I'm really, really, ridiculously in debt. For many (I won't say most, but it's a big portion) students, especially those at private universities, even generous financial aid packages usually only cover tuition, which makes up about half of the cost of attending law school. Most students will graduate with a pretty significant debt load, and many will graduate >$100k in debt.
Income-based loan repayment and loan forgiveness programs are in place to help those who work in public interest positions (e.g. working for the government, a public defender's office, or a legal aid clinic, all of which traditionally pay pretty poorly). These programs adjust your loan payments to reflect the fact that you're paid poorly, and you can still manage to live on your salary even if you're almost $200k in debt. In addition, if you work for 10 years in such a position and make regular loan payments during that time, often your remaining federal loan debt (which makes up the bulk of most graduate student debt) will be forgiven.
If you get a firm job in the private sector, usually you can afford to pay off your loans straight up, since they usually come with six-figure starting salaries (in large markets, the starting rate is usually $160k for large firm work).
The only worry for most students is getting a job after law school, as there are programs in place to make life livable, even if the salary isn't enormous.
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*sigh* I dont think I can ever make it, I am an undergrad and only got 18 month to go. I never even applied for a paralegal job, its just so damn competitive here I dont even bother. Im not gonna make it  and worse I dont even know if i want to be a lawyer
EDIT: in australia law is a 5 year undergrad course, I really dont know how I can make it... every single of my friends who has a job got it via *connections* and they have better marks and stuff than me as well
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On July 19 2011 23:47 panda_inc wrote:*sigh* I dont think I can ever make it, I am an undergrad and only got 18 month to go. I never even applied for a paralegal job, its just so damn competitive here I dont even bother. Im not gonna make it and worse I dont even know if i want to be a lawyer
Getting into law school it's really the chore. Tons and tons of folks in really good schools have almost 0 experience in the legal field before going to law school. Some schools (Northwestern comes to mind) really value work experience, and like older students who have worked for a few years. But they don't necessarily need to have worked in the legal field. Law school classrooms benefit from a group of people from diverse backgrounds. We have engineers, medical students, social workers, people (like myself) who went straight through from undergrad, and people who have worked for 20 years in various jobs.
Far and away the most important factors to getting into law school are your GPA/LSAT scores. If they're low, expect to get into schools that have correspondingly low median or 25/75 percentile splits. Definitely apply to a few "reach" schools, but don't be disheartened if your scores fall into the 25/75 range for wherever you're accepted. They make up the bulk of the class for a reason.
As for the bolded part, that's pretty troubling. There are two reasons to go to law school: you want the education for whatever reason (perhaps you're independently wealthy and you enjoy learning and you find the law interesting), or you want to be a lawyer. Law school is hard. Often, it sucks. A lot. But if you want to be a lawyer, you'll find a sick pleasure in even the crappy parts of law school. You'll want to go to class everyday. You'll want to feel the terror of the first few weeks when getting cold-called is "like the worst thing that could ever happen to me OHMYGODICOULDDIE."
But if you aren't sure you want to be a lawyer, law school would probably be awful. And it's really, really goddamn expensive. So if you aren't SURE, I'd suggest working for a year or two. Not only will it make you more competitive to get into law school, but you'll have a better idea of what sorts of jobs you like and what things you're good at, and it will make narrowing down the enormous landscape of legal jobs to thigns that you'll excel at when you finish. And you won't stick out like a sore thumb like nontraditional (read: older) students do in undergrad. There are plenty of people at every age from 23 - 35 in law school classrooms. You'll just be another person with a unique perspective.
Don't give up, but the best adivce I can give about law school is to make sure you're SURE you want to do it. $180,000 is an expensive way to delay real life for 3 years/find out you hate the idea of being a lawyer.
EDIT: I didn't even check your country. Everything I've said is US-centric. The particulars of my adivce are almost certainly wrong, but I think the big lesson would probably be applicable. I really, really love learning about the law, and that desire should probably be present no matter where you want to go to law school, because I can't imagine it's any easier anywhere else.
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On July 19 2011 23:58 beberly wrote:Show nested quote +On July 19 2011 23:47 panda_inc wrote:*sigh* I dont think I can ever make it, I am an undergrad and only got 18 month to go. I never even applied for a paralegal job, its just so damn competitive here I dont even bother. Im not gonna make it and worse I dont even know if i want to be a lawyer Getting into law school it's really the chore. Tons and tons of folks in really good schools have almost 0 experience in the legal field before going to law school. Some schools (Northwestern comes to mind) really value work experience, and like older students who have worked for a few years. But they don't necessarily need to have worked in the legal field. Law school classrooms benefit from a group of people from diverse backgrounds. We have engineers, medical students, social workers, people (like myself) who went straight through from undergrad, and people who have worked for 20 years in various jobs. Far and away the most important factors to getting into law school are your GPA/LSAT scores. If they're low, expect to get into schools that have correspondingly low median or 25/75 percentile splits. Definitely apply to a few "reach" schools, but don't be disheartened if your scores fall into the 25/75 range for wherever you're accepted. They make up the bulk of the class for a reason. As for the bolded part, that's pretty troubling. There are two reasons to go to law school: you want the education for whatever reason (perhaps you're independently wealthy and you enjoy learning and you find the law interesting), or you want to be a lawyer. Law school is hard. Often, it sucks. A lot. But if you want to be a lawyer, you'll find a sick pleasure in even the crappy parts of law school. You'll want to go to class everyday. You'll want to feel the terror of the first few weeks when getting cold-called is "like the worst thing that could ever happen to me OHMYGODICOULDDIE." But if you aren't sure you want to be a lawyer, law school would probably be awful. And it's really, really goddamn expensive. So if you aren't SURE, I'd suggest working for a year or two. Not only will it make you more competitive to get into law school, but you'll have a better idea of what sorts of jobs you like and what things you're good at, and it will make narrowing down the enormous landscape of legal jobs to thigns that you'll excel at when you finish. And you won't stick out like a sore thumb like nontraditional (read: older) students do in undergrad. There are plenty of people at every age from 23 - 35 in law school classrooms. You'll just be another person with a unique perspective. Don't give up, but the best adivce I can give about law school is to make sure you're SURE you want to do it. $180,000 is an expensive way to delay real life for 3 years/find out you hate the idea of being a lawyer. EDIT: I didn't even check your country. Everything I've said is US-centric. The particulars of my adivce are almost certainly wrong, but I think the big lesson would probably be applicable. I really, really love learning about the law, and that desire should probably be present no matter where you want to go to law school, because I can't imagine it's any easier anywhere else.
no no I agree with eveything you said. I've studied law for 3 years now and really didnt enjoy it much apart from some electives like human rights, envrionmental and international law. I'm asian so it was either law or medicine for me but I really get dizzy at sight of alot of blood soo.... anyway the problem now is I've been so unmotivated, my grades are shit and I am totally unprepared once I graduate and will have 0% of finding a job which I probably hate.....
EDIT: i guess the lesson here is dont do it unless you like it and will be motivated enough because you have to be prepared to be entering a highly competitive envrionment. else u end up like me.
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On July 20 2011 00:08 panda_inc wrote:Show nested quote +On July 19 2011 23:58 beberly wrote:On July 19 2011 23:47 panda_inc wrote:*sigh* I dont think I can ever make it, I am an undergrad and only got 18 month to go. I never even applied for a paralegal job, its just so damn competitive here I dont even bother. Im not gonna make it and worse I dont even know if i want to be a lawyer Getting into law school it's really the chore. Tons and tons of folks in really good schools have almost 0 experience in the legal field before going to law school. Some schools (Northwestern comes to mind) really value work experience, and like older students who have worked for a few years. But they don't necessarily need to have worked in the legal field. Law school classrooms benefit from a group of people from diverse backgrounds. We have engineers, medical students, social workers, people (like myself) who went straight through from undergrad, and people who have worked for 20 years in various jobs. Far and away the most important factors to getting into law school are your GPA/LSAT scores. If they're low, expect to get into schools that have correspondingly low median or 25/75 percentile splits. Definitely apply to a few "reach" schools, but don't be disheartened if your scores fall into the 25/75 range for wherever you're accepted. They make up the bulk of the class for a reason. As for the bolded part, that's pretty troubling. There are two reasons to go to law school: you want the education for whatever reason (perhaps you're independently wealthy and you enjoy learning and you find the law interesting), or you want to be a lawyer. Law school is hard. Often, it sucks. A lot. But if you want to be a lawyer, you'll find a sick pleasure in even the crappy parts of law school. You'll want to go to class everyday. You'll want to feel the terror of the first few weeks when getting cold-called is "like the worst thing that could ever happen to me OHMYGODICOULDDIE." But if you aren't sure you want to be a lawyer, law school would probably be awful. And it's really, really goddamn expensive. So if you aren't SURE, I'd suggest working for a year or two. Not only will it make you more competitive to get into law school, but you'll have a better idea of what sorts of jobs you like and what things you're good at, and it will make narrowing down the enormous landscape of legal jobs to thigns that you'll excel at when you finish. And you won't stick out like a sore thumb like nontraditional (read: older) students do in undergrad. There are plenty of people at every age from 23 - 35 in law school classrooms. You'll just be another person with a unique perspective. Don't give up, but the best adivce I can give about law school is to make sure you're SURE you want to do it. $180,000 is an expensive way to delay real life for 3 years/find out you hate the idea of being a lawyer. EDIT: I didn't even check your country. Everything I've said is US-centric. The particulars of my adivce are almost certainly wrong, but I think the big lesson would probably be applicable. I really, really love learning about the law, and that desire should probably be present no matter where you want to go to law school, because I can't imagine it's any easier anywhere else. no no I agree with eveything you said. I've studied law for 3 years now and really didnt enjoy it much apart from some electives like human rights, envrionmental and international law. I'm asian so it was either law or medicine for me but I really get dizzy at sight of alot of blood soo.... anyway the problem now is I've been so unmotivated, my grades are shit and I am totally unprepared once I graduate and will have 0% of finding a job which I probably hate..... EDIT: lesson here is dont do it unless you like it and will be motivated enough. else u end up like me.
You have three fields you enjoy. Set a goal to get a job in one of those instead of a normal lawyer job. Could that work as a motivator for you?
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the funny thing is Yurie... i really wish I can but those fields even though the pay is only a fraction of a normal lawyer are 10 times more competetive than normal positions.... I can only dream....
EDIT: o and i will owe the Australian government 60k for my fees. lucky i dont have to pay them till i get a job ahahaha..............
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On July 20 2011 00:12 Yurie wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2011 00:08 panda_inc wrote:On July 19 2011 23:58 beberly wrote:On July 19 2011 23:47 panda_inc wrote:*sigh* I dont think I can ever make it, I am an undergrad and only got 18 month to go. I never even applied for a paralegal job, its just so damn competitive here I dont even bother. Im not gonna make it and worse I dont even know if i want to be a lawyer Getting into law school it's really the chore. Tons and tons of folks in really good schools have almost 0 experience in the legal field before going to law school. Some schools (Northwestern comes to mind) really value work experience, and like older students who have worked for a few years. But they don't necessarily need to have worked in the legal field. Law school classrooms benefit from a group of people from diverse backgrounds. We have engineers, medical students, social workers, people (like myself) who went straight through from undergrad, and people who have worked for 20 years in various jobs. Far and away the most important factors to getting into law school are your GPA/LSAT scores. If they're low, expect to get into schools that have correspondingly low median or 25/75 percentile splits. Definitely apply to a few "reach" schools, but don't be disheartened if your scores fall into the 25/75 range for wherever you're accepted. They make up the bulk of the class for a reason. As for the bolded part, that's pretty troubling. There are two reasons to go to law school: you want the education for whatever reason (perhaps you're independently wealthy and you enjoy learning and you find the law interesting), or you want to be a lawyer. Law school is hard. Often, it sucks. A lot. But if you want to be a lawyer, you'll find a sick pleasure in even the crappy parts of law school. You'll want to go to class everyday. You'll want to feel the terror of the first few weeks when getting cold-called is "like the worst thing that could ever happen to me OHMYGODICOULDDIE." But if you aren't sure you want to be a lawyer, law school would probably be awful. And it's really, really goddamn expensive. So if you aren't SURE, I'd suggest working for a year or two. Not only will it make you more competitive to get into law school, but you'll have a better idea of what sorts of jobs you like and what things you're good at, and it will make narrowing down the enormous landscape of legal jobs to thigns that you'll excel at when you finish. And you won't stick out like a sore thumb like nontraditional (read: older) students do in undergrad. There are plenty of people at every age from 23 - 35 in law school classrooms. You'll just be another person with a unique perspective. Don't give up, but the best adivce I can give about law school is to make sure you're SURE you want to do it. $180,000 is an expensive way to delay real life for 3 years/find out you hate the idea of being a lawyer. EDIT: I didn't even check your country. Everything I've said is US-centric. The particulars of my adivce are almost certainly wrong, but I think the big lesson would probably be applicable. I really, really love learning about the law, and that desire should probably be present no matter where you want to go to law school, because I can't imagine it's any easier anywhere else. no no I agree with eveything you said. I've studied law for 3 years now and really didnt enjoy it much apart from some electives like human rights, envrionmental and international law. I'm asian so it was either law or medicine for me but I really get dizzy at sight of alot of blood soo.... anyway the problem now is I've been so unmotivated, my grades are shit and I am totally unprepared once I graduate and will have 0% of finding a job which I probably hate..... EDIT: lesson here is dont do it unless you like it and will be motivated enough. else u end up like me. You have three fields you enjoy. Set a goal to get a job in one of those instead of a normal lawyer job. Could that work as a motivator for you?
This is pretty solid advice. If you find somethig you enjoy, take as many electives as you can in that field. Volunteer in that field. Go to meet-and-greet luncheons with people in that field. If you demonstrate an interest in something specific, as opposed to "the law," employers usually value that motivation and desire to work in a specific area. While it removes big chunks of the legal market as potential employers, it allows you to really focus your job search, and probably raises your chances of getting any individual job.
On July 20 2011 00:15 panda_inc wrote:i will owe the Australian government 60k for my fees. lucky i dont have to pay them till i get a job ahahaha..............
Forever in debt....I feel you. =[
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yep thank you beberly and Yurie... again its good advice... I just started working for a envrionmental charity right now... though I probably get fired.. see my girl blog lol.....
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we could form a TL legal club or something, and refer work to each other once we are in the practice lol.
(another idea: go into Entertainment or Sports Law, then become IdrA's lawyer... that might be fun => sue Blizzard for creating Protoss etc etc)
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On July 20 2011 00:40 Kalingingsong wrote:
we could form a TL legal club or something, and refer work to each other once we are in the practice lol.
(another idea: go into Entertainment or Sports Law, then become IdrA's lawyer... that might be fun => sue Blizzard for creating Protoss etc etc)
"I'll be referring you to another attorney who can better handle your question. I met him on an internet gaming forum and I can assure you he's....wait....where are you going? DON'T CALL THE ABA PLEASE!!!!" =]
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"I'll be referring you to another attorney who can better handle your question. I met him on an internet gaming forum and I can assure you he's....wait....where are you going? DON'T CALL THE ABA PLEASE!!!!"
exchange business cards irl after joining oho.
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Yeah I find law school to be a pretty mediocre experience as well. Ass ton of reading for a written exam where you forget the subject matter within a matter of weeks. But then again that's education.
Take a jab at immediate trial practice (e.g., DA or PD's office comes to mind). So long as you don't mind the reduced pay, it's quite the experience. Doing a stint right now at a PD office for my 2L summer. They give you your own independent caseload (over 50 right now). And you do EVERYTHING. Trials, hearing, sentencings...the whole deal. It's great, it must be because the clients are pretty much poor alleged criminals, the state doesn't give two shits if their legal representation is in the hands of a current law student.
Dunno, private practice has the allure of prestige and $$$. I was actually initially planning to take that route till my expensive T14 degree failed to get me a 1L associate position. Then I reluctantly took a summer PD job and enjoyed the experience so much that I'm rerouting my future toward crim trial practice.
So try something new, it might reinvigorate your taste for legal practice. At least it did for me.
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I'm a Harvard law grad and longtime practicing trial attorney. I regularly interview and make hiring decisions for our firm so I have visibility into the market. I'm happy and successful in my profession. Here in a nutshell is the advice I give people who talk to me about law school.
1. Don't go to law school unless you know 100% you want to be a lawyer. It is not a good "general degree." It is vocational training for a profession. It also costs a fortune. The return is not worth it if you don't enter the profession happily. There are lots of other interesting things to do that don't require a law degree. If you're not sure try to get a paralegal job for a couple of years. Lots of people take these jobs for this reason.
2. Even if you think you want to be a lawyer, or in particular a litigator, ask yourself the following question--do I like to argue? At the end of the day, fundamentally, that is what we do. Sometimes we make esoteric and heavily researched arguments from briefs; sometimes we make passionate appeals to a jury; sometimes we scream at people (or get screamed at) in conference rooms. It takes a certain kind of personality one I would label "conflict-inclined." Most don't have it.
(If you want to do something other than litigation I can't advise you--I don't know what it takes to be a good corporate lawyer. However I will observe that the people who went to b-school and ended up at investment banks make a fuckton more money than corporate attorneys. So if that's the kind of work you want to do, I think the legal end is the least interesting and least remunerative aspect of it.)
Anyone having any specific questions they don't want to raise in a thread is welcome to PM me.
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EPT
