On July 09 2011 10:02 Bibbit wrote: Okay hi. I know a lot of TL'ers nowadays come from a War 3 background. I, however, am rooted in sc1. Not super deeply rooted, only started watching in late 2008 and was D+ max on a good day, but that's what I come from.
Anyways, more to the point. I played a tiny tiny bit of War 3 about a year ago. Nothing serious, just some games with a real life friend. I find the game kinda cool and for some reason just became interested in it. So I have some questions. ^_^
1) This one I'm afraid to ask: Is it generally considered well-balanced? Or is there a race that a ton of people play or nobody really plays?
2) Is there some sort of community for the game? Of course not expecting anything on the level of the wonderful site that is TL but is there anything?
3) Do people still play this game? I don't necessarily mean a pro-scene as I'm not aspiring to be high level. Just wondering if I were to go on a War 3 server, if anyone would be there. >_>
4) How would I go about learning how the game works? For the time being I'm naturally not concerned about complex strategies or anything. I just genuinely dont know a thing about the game and have no clue what a "typical" game looks like.
Thank you very much for any help I can get. Forgive me if this was just a huge search function fail from me. :D:D:D
i was quite involved into the wc3 community for awhile, i played and watched a ton of games for a good year or so.
anyways
1) balance. well it always switches around. for like 4 years orc was seen as shit. then suddenly they abused blademaster and it's all good. NE is always good. undead seems to have gotten the shaft lately. humans were super strong for a period of time. things change and i'd consider the game pretty balanced. you don't worry about balance cuz at a low level better player wins no ifs ands or buts.
2) community is decent. it's died since sc2 for sure. people like nanina cruncher came from a wc3 background if you didn't know. wc3replays is okay.
3) as i said people quit it for sc2, doesnt' mean noone plays. i'm sure a ton of chinese still play on garena.
4) wc3 is all about execution. no build orders or anything like that, executing your build microing your guys and picking fights. macro is a non-factor. you don't worry about when you take ur 3rd, you worry about what units to make when to fight and precise timings. typical game is 1 base vs 1 base and fast paced micro. whoever slips first loses a lot. if they don't slip up battle is decided in a big micro battle. who gets more creeps, who's got better items, more hero levels, if you get that invul pot used in time or if you get 1 more shockwave. it's very micro intensive with minute details. it's pretty much brood war without expansions and everything is magnified. if you lose a zergling(ghoul) to a marine(footman) it's much worse in wc3.
tl;dr the game is based on quick decision making and micro. timing execution, not macro/defense etc. there are no all ins except for like tower rushes. it's very strict and i can't stress how much execution is involved. there isn't any economy or macro and defense isn't really a known term.
#1. Economy takes the form of upkeep. There is a trade-off and it is actually very important.
Yeah. There are two "limits", 50 and 80 supply. When you break those limits, you start to mine less gold. Staying at a cap as long as possible to save up money and longer than your opponent is generally good. But you also need to scout, so that you don't end up fighting someone with 80 supply or more because you failed to see that he went into upkeep. It's common to kill a worker of yours when you hit 51 supply by accident. You can also compensate by building an expansion. Humans generally build one, followed by Orc and then Nelf/Undead. (Hm, NE and UD didn't have any timings regarding that, right? Been so long since I last really watched it.)
NE was pretty free to spam expansion in my experience. It is easier and cheaper plus you can hide an expo as their buildings can walk :/
Undead expand the least and often they only expand in the end game when they have to. Humans can do fast expo in the very early game by rallying their peasants but this is generally map dependent and risky in a way as your opponent can hijack your battle.
Orc in my experience is pretty weak against timing attacks.
It depends. Assuming you didn't screw up in early game (i.e. losing your hero multiple times, got high jacked creeps too many times, losing to timing push.) then it can go on for quite a while.
But generally I think the game is around 20 or so mins but if you consistently play against players equal to your level then it would be longer.
On July 09 2011 14:18 haduken wrote: NE was pretty free to spam expansion in my experience. It is easier and cheaper plus you can hide an expo as their buildings can walk :/
Pretty sure that only applied in certain situations though. Moon also used that "strategy"(dunno whether you can call mass expo that way) way more frequently than other players. And yeah, looks like they didn't have any timings regarding that.
On July 09 2011 14:21 Bibbit wrote: Ok another question. ^^
About how long is a typical game?
They can get pretty long. 20-25 minutes is, if I remember correctly, pretty typical, but games can often hit 30+ minutes, and nobody would really raise an eyebrow. They're pretty tiring, ngl, but I do find them more relaxing than SC2 given the slower pace of the game.
If you get the opportunity, you should watch Grubby's WC3 commentaries. (Just youtube them.) They're pretty entertaining and awesome. Though really, any games involving Sky, Moon, Grubby, or Lyn are pretty fantastic.
On July 09 2011 10:35 Sufficiency wrote: I came from an extensive wc3 background. I used to be fairly highly for solo and ffa ladder, and I consider myself a fairly decent player. I play Human and Undead.
1. WC3 is just as balanced as BW. 2. Donno 3. Donno 4. There are no 'complex' strategies. The game is about how to outmicro your opponent. Unlike BW, when you play wc3 your goal is to kill as many enemy units as possible while losing as few of yours as possible. Since your opponent wants to do the same thing, that's when things get complex.
There are several ways to kill enemy units while keeping yours alive. I will tell you one of them. One important aspect of wc3 is surrounding. It's kind of similar to zerglings surrounding zealots, except it's universal; any race, under any circumstances, needs to be aware of this. Since units in wc3 got a lot of life, when good players play, they almost never lose units unless it's due to surrounding or some sort of ability that hinders movement. Also note since in wc3 you don't have a lot of units to begin with, it's a bit trickier to form a surround - especially if you are orc.
With this in mind, you also want to be able to avoid getting surrounded. There are certain ways to do that: for example, guess what your opponent is doing and move your unit out of the way; or, tag a unit to your unit getting surrounded, thus forming an exit.
You most likely need only one build order (or two at most) and they are all very easy.
Hmm, you are right, NE expo timing is map dependent though. Moon was different because his play style was just ... too different to the rest of the NE players.
On July 09 2011 10:35 Sufficiency wrote: I came from an extensive wc3 background. I used to be fairly highly for solo and ffa ladder, and I consider myself a fairly decent player. I play Human and Undead.
1. WC3 is just as balanced as BW. 2. Donno 3. Donno 4. There are no 'complex' strategies. The game is about how to outmicro your opponent. Unlike BW, when you play wc3 your goal is to kill as many enemy units as possible while losing as few of yours as possible. Since your opponent wants to do the same thing, that's when things get complex.
There are several ways to kill enemy units while keeping yours alive. I will tell you one of them. One important aspect of wc3 is surrounding. It's kind of similar to zerglings surrounding zealots, except it's universal; any race, under any circumstances, needs to be aware of this. Since units in wc3 got a lot of life, when good players play, they almost never lose units unless it's due to surrounding or some sort of ability that hinders movement. Also note since in wc3 you don't have a lot of units to begin with, it's a bit trickier to form a surround - especially if you are orc.
With this in mind, you also want to be able to avoid getting surrounded. There are certain ways to do that: for example, guess what your opponent is doing and move your unit out of the way; or, tag a unit to your unit getting surrounded, thus forming an exit.
You most likely need only one build order (or two at most) and they are all very easy.
Oh dear lord I hope you're trolling.
Why is he trolling? He was right on the money on the surrounding. I
Hokay I really need top-class troll detectors in here. I dont know enough to figure out if someones being really dumb and I shouldnt listen to them. :D
On July 09 2011 14:39 Bibbit wrote: Hokay I really need top-class troll detectors in here. I dont know enough to figure out if someones being really dumb and I shouldnt listen to them. :D
The surrounding part is right. That and blocking your opponent's units(when they run) is a crucial element in the game.
mirror matchups were often decided by random item drops. In orc v orc if your blademaster got 2 mantles while creeping and the other one got two circlets you were in for one hell of a game
undead generally considered the worst race due to high cost of expansions, and low worker protection. Undead would have to spend the most on an expansion (haunt mine + necropolis) and acolytes had the least protection of any worker. oh and because ud vs orc was probably impossible
Hi Bibbit. I've played War3 since 04, and I'll try answer your questions to the best of my ability.
1) This one I'm afraid to ask: Is it generally considered well-balanced? Or is there a race that a ton of people play or nobody really plays?
Answer: In my most honest opinion, I consider the game very, and I mean very well balanced overall given the set of chance involved as well. Then of course, as for SC1 and 2, some maps favours different races. For example, there's this one map with 2 heal fountains in the corners where Undead is having a really tough time against Orc, mainly because the free harassability the orc's given with the free heal.
One general consensus as well is that in late game, Orc, or mainly the Blademaster becomes too buff if the orc is lucky enough to find some sweet powerup items. Blademaster and the Panda are the two only heroes that have a passive ability which is procentually increased in efficiency with the more + attack damage items the hero carries. Example: If the Blademaster is level 5, he has critical strike on level 3. If he now then as well carries items so his attack bonus is something around +30 (Kodo aura included), then his critical strikes can end up doing around 350-400 damage. Which I consider too much. Without the powerup items, he'll do around 250-280.
2) Is there some sort of community for the game? Of course not expecting anything on the level of the wonderful site that is TL but is there anything?
We have: Wcreplays.com - Well known for audio-files and well writen articles. They're talking mainly about SC2 nowadays though.
Gosugamers.net - Have a small but loyal Wc3 crew and following. You can ask any question in their Wc3 forum and you'll probably get an answer sooner or later.
Tft.replayers.com - A replay uploading and downloading site. Has no forums and focuses primarily on discussing the actual games, which can be very nice at times.
3) Do people still play this game? I don't necessarily mean a pro-scene as I'm not aspiring to be high level. Just wondering if I were to go on a War 3 server, if anyone would be there. >_>
Oh, I'm playing. Both TFT and ROC (Yes, I actually still have friends from back in 05 here who havn't ever touched TFT). My main ID is LittLe(D), but my stats are reset since I havn't played the ladder for like, 2 years. I play custom with friends mostly nowadays. PM me here on TL if you'd be interested in playing.
4) How would I go about learning how the game works? For the time being I'm naturally not concerned about complex strategies or anything. I just genuinely dont know a thing about the game and have no clue what a "typical" game looks like.
Never been good at answering this question...hmm. How about, you focus on one race to begin with. And you try it out in custom vs an easy computer, just to get the grip of what the units does etc. What you can do after that is to download some casual replays (Right side) from tft.replayers.com to get a grip of some standard build orders and what units are good against what etc. After that, I well I guess just go play the ladder or customs. I could be interested in helping you learn the game. PM me.
So, guess that was all. Sorry for terrible English as well :_: and GL with the learning process.
And a quick note, Wc3 is the best game I've ever been lucky enough to lay my hands on. You choose wisely my friend.
EDIT: Someone adviced on the Grubby commentaries. Excellent idea! Here is episode 1, all other episodes are on the same channel: + Show Spoiler +
On July 09 2011 14:21 Bibbit wrote: Ok another question. ^^
About how long is a typical game?
It heavily depends on map, level of play and races involved. A general pro-match I'd say lasts around 14-17 minutes on avarage. On a more casual level, well as I said it differs heavily. I can have games end after lik 8-10 minutes or have games proceeding on for 30+ minutes, it's really nothing unusual.
The shortest Pro replay I've watched I think ended after 3 minutes. It was an Undead guy named Happy (Plays Sc2 now) vs an Elf on a fairly short map. Happy sent out 3 ghouls fast as hell to harass a standard creeping spot for the elves, and messed it up completely. Came in with his hero, did one coil, surrounded the opposing hero and took the game from there.
Longest? Hmm, probably something around 1 and a half hour. Can't remember right now but it's most certainly a human, and siege tanks involved. Hehe
I followed the wc3 seen from around the time it started, and can clear up a few things!
Firstly your questions: 1) The general consensus (although not really my opinion) is that Orc is slightly stronger than Night Elf and Human, with Undead being slightly weaker. However i believe this is mainly due to the fact that the Orc vs Undead matchup is significantly in Orc's favor. I believe Orc, Night Elf and Human are balanced almost (if not) perfectly and also believe Night Elf, Human and Undead are balanced almost perfectly. It's just the Orc vs Undead matchup that throws off the balance in wc3, with Orc getting almost free-wins in tournaments everytime they face Undeads, it skews the results.
2) The best site in terms of a wc3 community probably was gosugamers (at least i found so), however now it basically just has the results of the latest matches with 3-10 comments on some.. The scene really took a hit with the release of sc2.
3) Yes, people still play this game.. Although not nearly as many as once upon a time, but if you log-on to battle.net (not the trashy 2.0!!) you will most definitely find a game.
4) Replays, i guess. Theres no real 'day9 daily' equivilant for wc3 that i know of.
Now to get a little off-topic!
On July 09 2011 11:38 Torenhire wrote: Granted everyone argues whether Lyn, Moon, Grubby, Sky are the best player, but basically those four were the kings. Think the TBLS of WC3
Lyn is definitely slightly lower than Moon, Grubby and Sky on that list. In terms of skill, hes definitely on par with them, but he only rose to that level in 2008 really. At the time the scene began to die down, i would say he was most definitely the best player out of these 4. However in terms of achievements he would have to be below the other 3, as they had already been dominating the scene for years beforehand.
My ranking terms of all-time (achievements) would be: + Show Spoiler +
1. Moon 2. Grubby 3. Sky 4. Lyn 5. ReMinD/ToD With others narrowly missing out (e.g Fly, Infi, TH000, Creo and players who were great, but never won the titles to back this up and several old-schoolers who were great, but didnt stick around long enough to be considered in an all time ranking imo, for example, Lucifer, TeD, SoJu etc. and Zacard, Dayfly, Madfrog, Insomnia etc.)
And as for a top 5 in terms of skill at the time wc3 started to decline: + Show Spoiler +
1. Lyn 2. TH000 3. Infi 4. Fly 5. SocceR
In terms of greatest games/must-see games, plenty spring to mind. For old-school Moon vs ToD (at WEG 2005, i think?!) on Twisted Meadows stands out. + Show Spoiler +
Moon showing off amazing use of Dark Ranger's charm ability. When ToD gets a surround on his Dark Ranger all alone, Moon charms a sorceress, to cast invisibility on his hero, and break the surround to save it. Also (and probably most memorable part of the game) Moon charmed ToD's peasant, and used 2 human heroes against him!
And more recently, ReMinD and Grubby played a really tense/epic game on Echo Isles in the WCG grand final last year. I also really loved a NightElf mirror between Moon and SocceR not long before sc2's release which saw every unit in the nightelf arsenal used (even mountain giants and chimaera!).
And lastly (before i end this gigantic wall of text!), some famous wc3 players who now play sc2! + Show Spoiler +
Lyn Moon SocceR Grubby Happy ToD RotterdaM Hasuobs Naniwa Thorzain NightEnd Check Zenio Naama Demuslim Insolence Madfrog Lucifron Xiaot Moonglade And probably many more i forgot to mention!
this thread brings back so much memories. i was pretty into the WC3 scene about 2 years ago, and when i started to get into SC/SC2 i was surprised at the number of familiar names i see. great that someone is showing interest!
Great games? Tod vs Moon wasn't great, was quite onesided actually and just Moon trolling.
-Moon vs his nemesis, the best Undead ever, FoV, at the WCG qualifier 05 or 06 on Twisted Meadows. Such a sick high level NvU in every aspect, like 40 mins of pure skill and action
-FoV vs Grubby on Gnoll Wood @ ESWC 05 - Fov using a unit combo nobody thought would be viable against the Undeadkiller Grubby in such an amazing fashion, MUST WATCH
-Moon vs Grubby @ Turtle Rock during the WEG ToD won(06 afaik), just mindblowing - the winner jumped onto the table afterwards, because he was so pumped after winning it
-FoV vs GoStop @ Echo Isles, just because the winner wins with exactly 1 supply vs 0 :D
And so many more...
Just posting names of good games is not enough, so here is one example of a great game I really enjoyed:
Not really trolling. Being able to block and clamp down units effectively by using the terrible unit pathing is a part of the micro in the game?
The unit pathing isn't terrible? oO
On July 09 2011 17:19 IceSlipper wrote: And lastly (before i end this gigantic wall of text!), some famous wc3 players who now play sc2! + Show Spoiler +
SocceR And probably many more i forgot to mention!
Soccer is still playing and streaming WC3 though. Are you sure he switched?
EPT
I know a lot of TL'ers nowadays come from a War 3 background. I, however, am rooted in sc1. Not super deeply rooted, only started watching in late 2008 and was D+ max on a good day, but that's what I come from.
