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On July 11 2011 15:21 RaLakedaimon wrote:
Interesting read in here since I've never played WC3 but only heard how those guys have sick micro (yet I've never noticed it being great with top ex pro WC players, just my op though). Why didn't Blizz just buff undead if they had such a hard time vs Orc? Maybe that's a dumb question but I honestly don't know the answer. Also can someone explain the whole apm thing that comes with WC players turned SC2? Like I said I never noticed them having any better micro than other pro's maybe I'm just not seeing something properly.
Orc > UD
UD > Human and Night Elf
There are a lot of top-tier Orc players out there, unfortunately, in tournaments, which made the race unviable for tournament play unless you were godly with the race. That said, you can see quite a bit of UD in 2v2. (Usually UD + NE if I'm not mistaken.)
As for the micro, here are a few things to keep in mind:
- The units take forever to die. They have so much health compared to SC2 units it's not even funny.
- WC3 doesn't clump units.
- WC3 was, overall, slower.
- You hardly need to worry about your economy in WC3.
All of this makes it much easier to showcase very good micro in WC3. Battles last approximately forever, and they aren't the sort of blob-on-blob warfare that you see in SC2; it's much more refined because it's slower. If you have the superior micro and items (and both you and your opponent have decent positions), you'll come out ahead even if you have the same amount of food and/or the same units. If you're not losing units during the battle, you also sort of don't have to go to your production facilities, since you ideally want to stay at the upkeep limits, and you most definitely don't have to go back to your base every 25 seconds to hit a larva inject. Basically, less multitasking is required for WC3, so you can devote more energy to your micro.
Having said that, most ex-WC3 players (or WC3 players, since many still play the game, like Lyn, Moon, and SocceR) do have pretty great SC2 micro, with the exception of Moon, who somehow manages to have poor unit control but excellent macro. (Amusingly enough, in WC3 he was known as the guy who goes expo happy, so it's fitting that he plays Zerg in a way, even though he'd probably micro better as Protoss or Terran.) And if you want an example of an ex-WC3 player with incredible micro, here's one. Happy was an UD player in WC3.
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On July 11 2011 13:42 Bibbit wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2011 12:04 obesechicken13 wrote:Heh, I deserve that. Here's the compendium I think you should read. It'll give you some info on things your friends aren't sure of (unless they're good). http://classic.battle.net/war3/warning: reading it can take 30 hours and it can be pretty addictive to refer to. I was just clownin, hence the clown face. :D And yeah I looked a bit at that. There's an absolute ton of stuff on there. >_> Anything specific you feel would be extra helpful?
But that clown... he's so... EVIL!
Anyways, I'm gonna try to make this short for you. I'd rather you looked at all the unit stats and armor types to learn unit counters, but understanding that information takes a lot of time. So instead you should just read these four articles.
Articles
+ Show Spoiler +
Unit Counters
+ Show Spoiler +
Once you gain an advantage you have to keep it, and since at the lower levels people can't micro their hero's enough, the player with the larger army or the better counter to the opponents army will keep the advantage. Knowing the counter wheel will win you lots more games.
Feetmen, ghouls, and grunts are light melee units. They're bad against magic attacks from high tier flying units. They're good against ranged units.
The huntress is a short ranged unit that's rather unique. It'll generally beat ranged units and catapults even though it takes extra damage from them. Huntresses do extra damage to ranged units. It's also good against light melee units because of its stats and its bounce attack.
Riflemen, troll headhunters, archers, water elementals, and crypt fiends are ranged units. They're good against flying units (crypt fiends need to research web though), and a mixed army of ranged units and light melee is better than a melee army
Knights, Tauren, Druids of the Claw (bears), and abominations are heavy melee units. They beat huntresses, ranged units, and light melee units.
Priests, Sorceresses, Shamans, Witch Doctors, Sprit Walkers, Druids of the talon, Necromancers, Obsidian Statues, (kodo beasts), and Banshees are spellcaster units. They don't do very much damage and are supposed to be used in moderation, but when they are used they can be used to great effect. Healing your army to full and crippling powerful enemy units is really big.
Spell Breakers, Faerie Dragons, Destroyers, and Dryads are anti-spellcasters. Dryads are good against air units and spell breakers are a sort of like a mix between a footman and a knight in terms of strength... except ranged... and good against spellcasters.
Gryphon riders, Chimaera, and Frost Wyrms are high tier flying units and they kill all melee units with their magic damage.
Demolishers, glaive throwers, mortar teams, meat wagons, siege engines, and raiders are siege units. They're good at killing towers and spellcasters.
Lastly we have air antiair units: Gryphon riders, bat riders, wyverns, hippogryphs, and flying machines.
I know this is a lot, just try to learn it little by little, game by game, and have fun.
Then read a bit about the heros and more about the units as you are able. http://classic.battle.net/war3/human/units/paladin.shtml
There are some flaws in these articles but they should still be read if you have the time.
http://classic.battle.net/war3/basics/combat.shtml
http://classic.battle.net/war3/basics/rookiemistakes.shtml
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Hokay, as usual I'm super appreciative of all the help! :D:D:D
Anyways I just played my first game vs a person, obviously knowing before the game started that I was gonna lose. So I have my first "strategic" question! It was Human (me) vs Orc and it suddenly occured to me that I dont know how to deal with invisible shit (Blademaster). Kinda silly for me not to see that coming but it was pretty funny anyway when I kept losing shit and then BM disappears.
To put it succinctly: What do you do for detection?
Edit: Watched some replays. It looks like I want a fast Arcane Tower? And also people seem to sim city the shit out of their base. I guess I want to do that so things stop killing my miner guys as hard?
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it would be helpful, if u post replays. then we can see what mistakes you made.
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On July 13 2011 02:54 MyLastSerenade wrote:
it would be helpful, if u post replays. then we can see what mistakes you made.
Yes I will certainly do that going forward. ^^
But I've only played that one game so far and I feel confident saying my biggest mistake was "not realizing the other guys hero turns invisible and that I don't know how to detect it." :D:D:D
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You've got the right idea. Sim city, Arcane Tower to drain mana, Dust of Appearance from a merchant shop, and if you're still feeling a little uncomfortable with it, get a Mountain King with Storm Bolt. In my experience, most of the lower level ladder players panic when their BM gets stunned, lol.
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On July 12 2011 23:58 Bibbit wrote:
Hokay, as usual I'm super appreciative of all the help! :D:D:D
Anyways I just played my first game vs a person, obviously knowing before the game started that I was gonna lose. So I have my first "strategic" question! It was Human (me) vs Orc and it suddenly occured to me that I dont know how to deal with invisible shit (Blademaster). Kinda silly for me not to see that coming but it was pretty funny anyway when I kept losing shit and then BM disappears.
To put it succinctly: What do you do for detection?
Edit: Watched some replays. It looks like I want a fast Arcane Tower? And also people seem to sim city the shit out of their base. I guess I want to do that so things stop killing my miner guys as hard?
Ok, its a bit tricky and kind of map dependent, but the general rule of thumb in Human vs Orc from the Human's perspective is to Shelter off the base in order to keep nasty things like Blademasters and Grunts out of it. This can be somewhat easily done, by simply having the right building placement, as shown in this screenshot:
+ Show Spoiler + But to be extra sure you get put up a tower in there as well (arcanite tower, drains mana from target so he wont have mana for wind walk).
And for the army, there's a little neat item that can be bought in the Goblin Merchant called Dust of Appearance which makes invisable units appear for you in an area around the hero. But, its oftenly not cost worthy to buy one since your army is generally to slow to catch up with the BM, unless you go for Mountain King as starter hero. (Boy I could go on like this for hours it feels, there's so quite a lot of strategies to talk about, and maps, and match ups...)
This is just covering the very basics, but I guess that'll do for now. Also, as you saw with my links, Blizzard still have the old Bnet site up for War3 information. If you feel like you have time, go ahead and read through it. Sure, a lot of things are a bit outdated, but its still the same principal towards the game. http://classic.battle.net/war3/
I'll be happy to answer more questions as they come along, also. I just digged this up, just for you
Some eye candy - here
Funny stuff: + Show Spoiler +http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bRV2lN7bMJA
Instructional: + Show Spoiler +
Check out more at the channels^ to find out more stuff.
Additional War3 videos and channels
Crota - + Show Spoiler +
Chumpesque - + Show Spoiler +http://www.youtube.com/user/Chumpesque
EDIT: Another MUST WATCH video - Happywins
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On July 13 2011 03:50 LittLeD wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2011 23:58 Bibbit wrote:
Hokay, as usual I'm super appreciative of all the help! :D:D:D
Anyways I just played my first game vs a person, obviously knowing before the game started that I was gonna lose. So I have my first "strategic" question! It was Human (me) vs Orc and it suddenly occured to me that I dont know how to deal with invisible shit (Blademaster). Kinda silly for me not to see that coming but it was pretty funny anyway when I kept losing shit and then BM disappears.
To put it succinctly: What do you do for detection?
Edit: Watched some replays. It looks like I want a fast Arcane Tower? And also people seem to sim city the shit out of their base. I guess I want to do that so things stop killing my miner guys as hard? Ok, its a bit tricky and kind of map dependent, but the general rule of thumb in Human vs Orc from the Human's perspective is to Shelter off the base in order to keep nasty things like Blademasters and Grunts out of it. This can be somewhat easily done, by simply having the right building placement, as shown in this screenshot: + Show Spoiler + But to be extra sure you get put up a tower in there as well (arcanite tower, drains mana from target so he wont have mana for wind walk). And for the army, there's a little neat item that can be bought in the Goblin Merchant called Dust of Appearance which makes invisable units appear for you in an area around the hero. But, its oftenly not cost worthy to buy one since your army is generally to slow to catch up with the BM, unless you go for Mountain King as starter hero. (Boy I could go on like this for hours it feels, there's so quite a lot of strategies to talk about, and maps, and match ups...) This is just covering the very basics, but I guess that'll do for now. Also, as you saw with my links, Blizzard still have the old Bnet site up for War3 information. If you feel like you have time, go ahead and read through it. Sure, a lot of things are a bit outdated, but its still the same principal towards the game. http://classic.battle.net/war3/I'll be happy to answer more questions as they come along, also. I just digged this up, just for you Some eye candy - hereFunny stuff: + Show Spoiler +Instructional: + Show Spoiler +http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EdCQsIF7mwU Check out more at the channels^ to find out more stuff. Additional War3 videos and channels Crota - + Show Spoiler +http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MF_jg7TdkFY Chumpesque - + Show Spoiler +http://www.youtube.com/user/Chumpesque EDIT: Another MUST WATCH video - Happywins
Wow. I like you ^^
Edit: ANother question. TT That button near the minimap that makes your guys stick to some formation ... Do I want that on? It feels really annoying when things stop and wait etc.. If its better to have on I guess I could get used to it but meh. :/
Edit 2: Just gonna keep piling questions in here and giving huge <3's to everyone who helps. ^^ So #2 - I understand that you typically dont want to make a lot of workers in this game. But Humans seem to use their workers for a lot of shit. Do I want to be making them almost constantly?
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always have your formation off, pretty much no exceptions, it makes all your units move at the same speed as your slowest unit
you don't really want to be making peasants constantly, if you are teching normally you don't really need to make more than usual, (6-8 i think, i dont play human much), but if you are doing a fast expansion build then you need to make quite a few peasants.
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On July 13 2011 03:50 LittLeD wrote:And for the army, there's a little neat item that can be bought in the Goblin Merchant called Dust of Appearance which makes invisable units appear for you in an area around the hero. But, its oftenly not cost worthy to buy one since your army is generally to slow to catch up with the BM, unless you go for Mountain King as starter hero. (Boy I could go on like this for hours it feels, there's so quite a lot of strategies to talk about, and maps, and match ups...)
Why starter hero? It's still fine even when you have him as your second hero. When you creep some bigger spots, it's always worth it to make sure that you get the most important mob.
Also, Reveal from the Goblin Laboratory(if it's on the map) helps as well.
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On July 13 2011 03:53 Bibbit wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2011 03:50 LittLeD wrote:On July 12 2011 23:58 Bibbit wrote:
Hokay, as usual I'm super appreciative of all the help! :D:D:D
Anyways I just played my first game vs a person, obviously knowing before the game started that I was gonna lose. So I have my first "strategic" question! It was Human (me) vs Orc and it suddenly occured to me that I dont know how to deal with invisible shit (Blademaster). Kinda silly for me not to see that coming but it was pretty funny anyway when I kept losing shit and then BM disappears.
To put it succinctly: What do you do for detection?
Edit: Watched some replays. It looks like I want a fast Arcane Tower? And also people seem to sim city the shit out of their base. I guess I want to do that so things stop killing my miner guys as hard? Ok, its a bit tricky and kind of map dependent, but the general rule of thumb in Human vs Orc from the Human's perspective is to Shelter off the base in order to keep nasty things like Blademasters and Grunts out of it. This can be somewhat easily done, by simply having the right building placement, as shown in this screenshot: + Show Spoiler + But to be extra sure you get put up a tower in there as well (arcanite tower, drains mana from target so he wont have mana for wind walk). And for the army, there's a little neat item that can be bought in the Goblin Merchant called Dust of Appearance which makes invisable units appear for you in an area around the hero. But, its oftenly not cost worthy to buy one since your army is generally to slow to catch up with the BM, unless you go for Mountain King as starter hero. (Boy I could go on like this for hours it feels, there's so quite a lot of strategies to talk about, and maps, and match ups...) This is just covering the very basics, but I guess that'll do for now. Also, as you saw with my links, Blizzard still have the old Bnet site up for War3 information. If you feel like you have time, go ahead and read through it. Sure, a lot of things are a bit outdated, but its still the same principal towards the game. http://classic.battle.net/war3/I'll be happy to answer more questions as they come along, also. I just digged this up, just for you Some eye candy - hereFunny stuff: + Show Spoiler +Instructional: + Show Spoiler +http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EdCQsIF7mwU Check out more at the channels^ to find out more stuff. Additional War3 videos and channels Crota - + Show Spoiler +http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MF_jg7TdkFY Chumpesque - + Show Spoiler +http://www.youtube.com/user/Chumpesque EDIT: Another MUST WATCH video - Happywins Wow. I like you ^^ Edit: ANother question. TT That button near the minimap that makes your guys stick to some formation ... Do I want that on? It feels really annoying when things stop and wait etc.. If its better to have on I guess I could get used to it but meh. :/ Edit 2: Just gonna keep piling questions in here and giving huge <3's to everyone who helps. ^^ So #2 - I understand that you typically dont want to make a lot of workers in this game. But Humans seem to use their workers for a lot of shit. Do I want to be making them almost constantly?
I have no idea why that button was created to begin with. Completely useless. As for the worker saturation. The standard for human (so that's the race you're gonna focus on?) is 5 on the mine (duh) and 6-12 (at main base) on wood dependent on map, strategy and match up.
I'll run down some basics:
Vs Orc: [Example map: Echo Isles]
The two most popular strategies here are a) Archmage + 3-4 footies + fast tier2 tech+ fast level 2 creep (3 if skilled) + harrasment.
And b) Archmage OR Mountain King fast exapnd with 10+ footies, a lot of workers, and late tech. Heavily tower-defended and later teched into tier3 for gryphons.
Now, I havn't played in a while but a) can be done in two ways. You either go for a REALLY fast lumber mill (6altar, 7mill, 8farm, 9rax) to nail down a super fast t2 with only 6 workers (I think) or go for the standard 6altar, 7rax, 8farm, 9farm and pump out around 3-4 footies and 8 workers on wood (so your supply is around 24-26) then tech.
And b) is of course hugely different and can never be said precisely how it will go down because you most likely will be harassed, but you're gonna need a lot more workers, you'll problably build 16+ before entering your tech as you're gonna need like 1 arcanite and 2-3 guard towers (more if the orc is siege pushing you) at both your bases.
Tell me if you need any advice for other match ups, lol. I don't wanna write things too much ahead of time before you can nail down the basics, hehe.
On July 13 2011 05:28 Lucumo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2011 03:50 LittLeD wrote:And for the army, there's a little neat item that can be bought in the Goblin Merchant called Dust of Appearance which makes invisable units appear for you in an area around the hero. But, its oftenly not cost worthy to buy one since your army is generally to slow to catch up with the BM, unless you go for Mountain King as starter hero. (Boy I could go on like this for hours it feels, there's so quite a lot of strategies to talk about, and maps, and match ups...) Why starter hero? It's still fine even when you have him as your second hero. When you creep some bigger spots, it's always worth it to make sure that you get the most important mob. Also, Reveal from the Goblin Laboratory(if it's on the map) helps as well.
Thought we were talking early game here. Of course, later in the game when MK is with you, one should always be carried in order to prevent creep kills. As I said above, I didn't want to rush ahead of time.
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Ok that second thing with the mass workers into FE with towers is what I saw in the replay. Thats what made me think I maybe needed an obscene amount of workers. I guess thats just one possible strategy. 
And yeah not getting advanced on me is good! I already got a few pieces of advice that my only response going through my head was "...."
Edit: Dont want to double post but I got my first win!!!!
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To answer soem of the questions you asked, in case they weren't answered:
1. Detection: buy Dust of Appearance at a Goblin shop. There are some alternatives as Human: Flying Machine and Sentry Upgrade on towers. Neither is commonly used.
2. Do *NOT* use formation. It makes your group to match the speed of slowest unit. Very, very bad.
3. As Human, you only need 5 workers per mine, and 5-7 on Lumber. Do not build extra workers unless you have expansions.
4. As a rule of thumb, as soon as you can upgrade to T2, do it. Do not make workers after you achieved T2, unless you lost too many to your opponent.
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One general consensus as well is that in late game, Orc, or mainly the Blademaster becomes too buff if the orc is lucky enough to find some sweet powerup items. Blademaster and the Panda are the two only heroes that have a passive ability which is procentually increased in efficiency with the more + attack damage items the hero carries. Example: If the Blademaster is level 5, he has critical strike on level 3. If he now then as well carries items so his attack bonus is something around +30 (Kodo aura included), then his critical strikes can end up doing around 350-400 damage. Which I consider too much. Without the powerup items, he'll do around 250-280. Incorrect. Critical strike is effectively a damage multiplicator. The relative damage bonus gained from items remains the same, whether critical strike skill is present or not, all other things being equal.
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On July 11 2011 17:14 Djagulingu wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2011 15:04 BilltownRunner wrote:On July 10 2011 17:29 Djagulingu wrote:On July 09 2011 11:01 Bibbit wrote:On July 09 2011 10:55 Fulgrim wrote:On July 09 2011 10:46 n.DieJokes wrote:
Can someone tell me about who the dominate players are and were and where some of the non grubby war3 players rising to prominence in sc2 came from? How good they were relatively and the korea/world balance I didn't really follow wc3 scene at all, but I thought that: Naniwa Grubby Thorzain Moon were all warcraft 3 players Yeah a lot of top non-korean sc2 players come from. I think the question is more how good they were in war3. I know Grubby and Moon were like super good and I learned recently that Nani was on fnatic and claimed to be the equivalent of what kawaiirice is to fnatic in sc2.  I'd be interested in who Thorzain was in war3. He was one of the two laughing stocks of EU Team of Stars War Shanghai along with ThomasG, aka RAGECupcake. He lost to TH000's off race and SocceR when he decided to use only a single hero which was then Warden. You and me couldn't get less wins than ThomasG and ThorZain. On July 09 2011 10:46 n.DieJokes wrote:
Can someone tell me about who the dominate players are and were and where some of the non grubby war3 players rising to prominence in sc2 came from? How good they were relatively and the korea/world balance There were too few good players in EU/NA in WC3 scene. It was basically Korea vs China. China had likes of TeD, TH000, Infi, Fly%100 and Korea had  Lyn, FoCuS, ReMinD,  Moon, SocceR, viOlet etc. It was basically like Undead vs Nightelf is unplayable for Nightelf and Undead vs Orc is unplayable for Undead (ReMinD, night elf player, off raced orc against undead players for a good amount of time and even after he started playing NE again, his vU matchup was rather weak). Thorzain might have had one bad tournament but he was almost on Grubby's level when they both quit. Can't remember exactly but iirc he lost 1-2, 1-2 to grubby at european blizzcon. Thorzain was 2/3rd best player in Europe along with Lucifron for the last 6 months of the game. I was lucky enough to catch the last chunks of WC3 scene and Thorzain was on the same level as grubby? Lol. He was never 2/3rd best player in europe. In EU, Happy was the best player along with Grubby and he was the only player in Grubby's level. ThomasG, ThorZain, Lucifron, Vortix, XLorD, whatever was never on that level. At least during the last 6 months of the game. And yeah, WC3 scene was like this: In the beginning, EU/NA people were able to compete with koreans, chinese people step into the game, koreans and chinese slowly take over, in the end, scene gets dominated by koreans and chinese. It's basically like A class koreans can beat the shit out of best european/north american players during the last 6 months. And, UD has a pretty high win rate against NE. It was like Space and TeD have a combined number of 3 losses to NE players (I'm just exaggarating, but those guys, and Happy too, rarely lost to NE. Like for each loss, they get 5-6 wins or something like that). @OP if you for some reason decide to play undead, watch TeD's games. He is like July of the WC3 scene.
You are making it seem like Thorzain wasn't near grubby's level.
Thorzain's ESWC 2010 Results
Thorzain > Grubby, Focus, Vortix
Thorzain < Lyn,Remind, Lucifron
I forgot about happy though, you are right, happy and both grubby were clearly above his level but out of 10 games I would expect Thorzain to take 3-4 off both grubby and happy. He was certainly no slouch.
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So do I even bother trying to kill Blademaster? I followed people's advice and got that dust stuff or whatever it is. Now I get to see him but he's still too fast. >_> I guess that Mountain King is good cuz of the stun thing he has?
I haven't really looked at a lot of Human vs Orc replays yet, gonna start on that now I guess.
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definitely, but if he is after/hitting your Archmage you want to always be running away, make sure to run in straight lines as much as possible as any turns slow you down slightly. Pretty much all BMs get boots of speed so you will need to buy them as well to keep your speed up. Once Bm gets lev 3 there isn't much you can do to outrun him tho.
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On July 13 2011 15:26 acie wrote:
definitely, but if he is after/hitting your Archmage you want to always be running away, make sure to run in straight lines as much as possible as any turns slow you down slightly. Pretty much all BMs get boots of speed so you will need to buy them as well to keep your speed up. Once Bm gets lev 3 there isn't much you can do to outrun him tho.
Ok thanks for the tip about the boots of speed. It looks like I still want to open with the archmage and then get mountain king at t2?
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vs orc its pretty much either AM/Mountain king or do AM/Beastmaster timing where you kill burrows with mass summons. Doing a MK 1st fast expo can be pretty strong/ kind of an easier way to play, I had a friend who played undead and started playing human and only did MK 1st strategies for every matchup/map and got pretty high level.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/MSR41.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/Ml2Ga.jpg)
