Okay hi. I know a lot of TL'ers nowadays come from a War 3 background. I, however, am rooted in sc1. Not super deeply rooted, only started watching in late 2008 and was D+ max on a good day, but that's what I come from.
Anyways, more to the point. I played a tiny tiny bit of War 3 about a year ago. Nothing serious, just some games with a real life friend. I find the game kinda cool and for some reason just became interested in it. So I have some questions. ^_^
1) This one I'm afraid to ask: Is it generally considered well-balanced? Or is there a race that a ton of people play or nobody really plays?
2) Is there some sort of community for the game? Of course not expecting anything on the level of the wonderful site that is TL but is there anything?
3) Do people still play this game? I don't necessarily mean a pro-scene as I'm not aspiring to be high level. Just wondering if I were to go on a War 3 server, if anyone would be there. >_>
4) How would I go about learning how the game works? For the time being I'm naturally not concerned about complex strategies or anything. I just genuinely dont know a thing about the game and have no clue what a "typical" game looks like.
Thank you very much for any help I can get. Forgive me if this was just a huge search function fail from me. :D:D:D
Me too. also from a BW point of view, ill tell the WC3 people of what i heard (may not be accurate)
1) I heard Blademasters are imbalanced and humans are weak? 2) Community is mainly DotA i think. WC3 fanbase probably died with the scandal in Korea 3) Yes. (even in korea regardless of a proscene's absence) 4) Its more micro > macro because of heroes i believe.
1) In the distance I sense.... Blademaster Imba cries.... they're coming. They're coming!! 2) It never felt like a real community, for me at least. Yes there were a lot of people watching matches and playing the game, but not much interaction between those.. 3) Bnet from wc3 is open and people are still playing it. Bnet is also used for A LOT of funmaps (like DotA ). 4)You learn by doing. If you want to improve rapidly I suggest watching replays and copying the Pros similiar to Starcraft 2.
Edit 1: lol before im finished writing this there's already one calling out blademaster ^^ Edit 2: Undead was very very weak against Ork, other than that rather balanced overall, not as balanced as Starcraft though.
WCReplays.com had a fairly large community back when the game was more popular. You can probably find some old Axslav / Strifecro stuff on there. Phreak, of League of Legends fame, also probably still has some of his old commentaries around.
From what I've read the game is pretty much impossible to play if you're halfway decent at RTS games. As your ELO increases games become almost impossible to find, it can take hours to find a game even on the more active servers, and the number of map / drop hackers you run into will continue to increase until they're all you match up against.
Orc is pretty strong. Undead weak vs orc at high levels so generally they aren't played. wcreplays.com had a decent community i visited a lot back when. War3 is tons of fun! Micro>macro, very few workers. Not so many expansions. A lot of the power comes from small things. Knowing how to creep camps makes a big difference. item use is key.
Generally it's creep to level 3 and then your strategy comes to play. t2 is a big deal. t3 rarely used (with orc at least). human tower rushes are stupid strong sometimes .
That's all I really remember. I had a ton of fun playing war3 and I actually miss it.
4) You can learn just by playing a lot, then learn the build orders and unit compositions of your race, watch some pro level games, and then play some more. I like to think of w3 as Dota where you control a lot of heroes. Takes quite a bit of micro.
On July 09 2011 10:02 Bibbit wrote: 1) This one I'm afraid to ask: Is it generally considered well-balanced? Or is there a race that a ton of people play or nobody really plays?
2) Is there some sort of community for the game? Of course not expecting anything on the level of the wonderful site that is TL but is there anything?
3) Do people still play this game? I don't necessarily mean a pro-scene as I'm not aspiring to be high level. Just wondering if I were to go on a War 3 server, if anyone would be there. >_>
4) How would I go about learning how the game works? For the time being I'm naturally not concerned about complex strategies or anything. I just genuinely dont know a thing about the game and have no clue what a "typical" game looks like.
1. Like starcraft, there's a race that's easier to start out with, that gets harder later on: orc. Overall though well balanced. Blademasters are ridiculously hard to use effectively. They'll still kill archmages if you don't know what you're doing, but if your opponent is so bad he can't control his hero, he doesn't know what he's doing either.
Oh yeah, general consensus is that undead can't beat orc.
2. Yeah, wc3replays and gosugamers both cover warcraft 3.
3. I found it hard to find games on iccup
4. Read all the warcraft 3 compendium. It really helped me to learn unit counters and the basics of food upkeep and the like. Then watch a small number of chumpesque's warcraft 3 uploads on youtube to learn how to play properly: more about effective creeping, unit counters, and when to break upkeep, less on unit composition (even if you get a lot of druids of the talon, you're not really good enough to use them well).
I came from an extensive wc3 background. I used to be fairly highly for solo and ffa ladder, and I consider myself a fairly decent player. I play Human and Undead.
1. WC3 is just as balanced as BW. 2. Donno 3. Donno 4. There are no 'complex' strategies. The game is about how to outmicro your opponent. Unlike BW, when you play wc3 your goal is to kill as many enemy units as possible while losing as few of yours as possible. Since your opponent wants to do the same thing, that's when things get complex.
There are several ways to kill enemy units while keeping yours alive. I will tell you one of them. One important aspect of wc3 is surrounding. It's kind of similar to zerglings surrounding zealots, except it's universal; any race, under any circumstances, needs to be aware of this. Since units in wc3 got a lot of life, when good players play, they almost never lose units unless it's due to surrounding or some sort of ability that hinders movement. Also note since in wc3 you don't have a lot of units to begin with, it's a bit trickier to form a surround - especially if you are orc.
With this in mind, you also want to be able to avoid getting surrounded. There are certain ways to do that: for example, guess what your opponent is doing and move your unit out of the way; or, tag a unit to your unit getting surrounded, thus forming an exit.
You most likely need only one build order (or two at most) and they are all very easy.
Can someone tell me about who the dominate players are and were and where some of the non grubby war3 players rising to prominence in sc2 came from? How good they were relatively and the korea/world balance
On July 09 2011 10:46 n.DieJokes wrote: Can someone tell me about who the dominate players are and were and where some of the non grubby war3 players rising to prominence in sc2 came from? How good they were relatively and the korea/world balance
Yes that is a nice question as well! I am interested. :D:D
Also huge thanks to everyone who has answered questions so far.
On July 09 2011 10:46 n.DieJokes wrote: Can someone tell me about who the dominate players are and were and where some of the non grubby war3 players rising to prominence in sc2 came from? How good they were relatively and the korea/world balance
I didn't really follow wc3 scene at all, but I thought that: Naniwa Grubby Thorzain Moon
On July 09 2011 10:46 n.DieJokes wrote: Can someone tell me about who the dominate players are and were and where some of the non grubby war3 players rising to prominence in sc2 came from? How good they were relatively and the korea/world balance
I didn't really follow wc3 scene at all, but I thought that: Naniwa Grubby Thorzain Moon
were all warcraft 3 players
Yeah a lot of top non-korean sc2 players come from. I think the question is more how good they were in war3. I know Grubby and Moon were like super good and I learned recently that Nani was on fnatic and claimed to be the equivalent of what kawaiirice is to fnatic in sc2.
On July 09 2011 10:46 n.DieJokes wrote: Can someone tell me about who the dominate players are and were and where some of the non grubby war3 players rising to prominence in sc2 came from? How good they were relatively and the korea/world balance
I didn't really follow wc3 scene at all, but I thought that: Naniwa Grubby Thorzain Moon
were all warcraft 3 players
Yeah a lot of top non-korean sc2 players come from. I think the question is more how good they were in war3. I know Grubby and Moon were like super good and I learned recently that Nani was on fnatic and claimed to be the equivalent of what kawaiirice is to fnatic in sc2.
I'd be interested in who Thorzain was in war3.
Not to nitpick, but your statement implies that moon isn't korean . I personally never knew either naniwa or thorzain in war3, but I did get into the competitive scene quite late.
On July 09 2011 10:46 n.DieJokes wrote: Can someone tell me about who the dominate players are and were and where some of the non grubby war3 players rising to prominence in sc2 came from? How good they were relatively and the korea/world balance
I didn't really follow wc3 scene at all, but I thought that: Naniwa Grubby Thorzain Moon
were all warcraft 3 players
Yeah a lot of top non-korean sc2 players come from. I think the question is more how good they were in war3. I know Grubby and Moon were like super good and I learned recently that Nani was on fnatic and claimed to be the equivalent of what kawaiirice is to fnatic in sc2.
I'd be interested in who Thorzain was in war3.
Not to nitpick, but your statement implies that moon isn't korean . I personally never knew either naniwa or thorzain in war3, but I did get into the competitive scene quite late.
Yeah I actually thought of it but I figured it would be easier to just let it go and hope people got what I meant. :D And you did but you wanted to pick on me.
And yeah, Nani meantioned the fnatic thing during his TL Attack episode. I had looked it up and found the official news announcement from 2007 here.
On July 09 2011 10:46 n.DieJokes wrote: Can someone tell me about who the dominate players are and were and where some of the non grubby war3 players rising to prominence in sc2 came from? How good they were relatively and the korea/world balance
I didn't really follow wc3 scene at all, but I thought that: Naniwa Grubby Thorzain Moon
were all warcraft 3 players
Yeah a lot of top non-korean sc2 players come from. I think the question is more how good they were in war3. I know Grubby and Moon were like super good and I learned recently that Nani was on fnatic and claimed to be the equivalent of what kawaiirice is to fnatic in sc2.
I'd be interested in who Thorzain was in war3.
Not to nitpick, but your statement implies that moon isn't korean . I personally never knew either naniwa or thorzain in war3, but I did get into the competitive scene quite late.
Yeah I actually thought of it but I figured it would be easier to just let it go and hope people got what I meant. :D And you did but you wanted to pick on me.
And yeah, Nani meantioned the fnatic thing during his TL Attack episode. I had looked it up and found the official news announcement from 2007 here.
Haha, sorry. Interesting!
On another note, one thing that causes a lot of problems with the balance of warcraft 3 is how many things are Luck based.
few examples: Miss chance uphill (Bw style) Blademaster crit chance item drops (!!!)
Item drops could even decide matches with an orc. 2x +6 claws, a +12 claw? That makes blademaster's crit SOOO painful. Theres a video of Lyn playing an undead and critting 3 times in a row vs a teleporting lich and gg is called after.
On July 09 2011 10:46 n.DieJokes wrote: Can someone tell me about who the dominate players are and were and where some of the non grubby war3 players rising to prominence in sc2 came from? How good they were relatively and the korea/world balance
Yes that is a nice question as well! I am interested. :D:D
Also huge thanks to everyone who has answered questions so far.
The Chinese player Li "Sky" XiaoFeng is/was one of the most successful wc3 player. He was elected in to the WCG Official Hall Of Fame by winning the wc3 championship 2005 and 2006.
On July 09 2011 10:46 n.DieJokes wrote: Can someone tell me about who the dominate players are and were and where some of the non grubby war3 players rising to prominence in sc2 came from? How good they were relatively and the korea/world balance
Yes that is a nice question as well! I am interested. :D:D
Also huge thanks to everyone who has answered questions so far.
The Chinese player Li "Sky" XiaoFeng is/was one of the most successful wc3 player. He was elected in to the WCG Official Hall Of Fame by winning the wc3 championship 2005 and 2006.
On July 09 2011 10:46 n.DieJokes wrote: Can someone tell me about who the dominate players are and were and where some of the non grubby war3 players rising to prominence in sc2 came from? How good they were relatively and the korea/world balance
Yes that is a nice question as well! I am interested. :D:D
Also huge thanks to everyone who has answered questions so far.
The Chinese player Li "Sky" XiaoFeng is/was one of the most successful wc3 player. He was elected in to the WCG Official Hall Of Fame by winning the wc3 championship 2005 and 2006.
Ooh that sk-gaming site you linked for the earnings has a pretty good player database! I can see what races my sc2 homeboys played in War 3!
Edit: I failed at quoting. All fixed now ^^
I have no idea how up-to-date the SK-gaming site is though. Every player profile I have looked at is outdated with "Current Team" and some other information. I hope the earnings is somewhat accurate.
On July 09 2011 10:46 n.DieJokes wrote: Can someone tell me about who the dominate players are and were and where some of the non grubby war3 players rising to prominence in sc2 came from? How good they were relatively and the korea/world balance
Yes that is a nice question as well! I am interested. :D:D
Also huge thanks to everyone who has answered questions so far.
The Chinese player Li "Sky" XiaoFeng is/was one of the most successful wc3 player. He was elected in to the WCG Official Hall Of Fame by winning the wc3 championship 2005 and 2006.
Ooh that sk-gaming site you linked for the earnings has a pretty good player database! I can see what races my sc2 homeboys played in War 3!
Edit: I failed at quoting. All fixed now ^^
I have no idea how up-to-date the SK-gaming site is though. Every player profile I have looked at is outdated with "Current Team" and some other information. I hope the earnings is somewhat accurate.
Meh, I'm not particularly looking for super up-to-date info. I used it to check what races some people used and take guesses on how good someone was based on prize money. ^^
On July 09 2011 10:46 n.DieJokes wrote: Can someone tell me about who the dominate players are and were and where some of the non grubby war3 players rising to prominence in sc2 came from? How good they were relatively and the korea/world balance
Yes that is a nice question as well! I am interested. :D:D
Also huge thanks to everyone who has answered questions so far.
The Chinese player Li "Sky" XiaoFeng is/was one of the most successful wc3 player. He was elected in to the WCG Official Hall Of Fame by winning the wc3 championship 2005 and 2006.
Haha, thank goodness someone posted some real WC3 pros. XD
Was getting worried that no one knew anybody, and I was gonna be the lone WC3 watcher. Granted everyone argues whether Lyn, Moon, Grubby, Sky are the best player, but basically those four were the kings. Think the TBLS of WC3
1) This one I'm afraid to ask: Is it generally considered well-balanced? Or is there a race that a ton of people play or nobody really plays?
2) Is there some sort of community for the game? Of course not expecting anything on the level of the wonderful site that is TL but is there anything?
3) Do people still play this game? I don't necessarily mean a pro-scene as I'm not aspiring to be high level. Just wondering if I were to go on a War 3 server, if anyone would be there. >_>
4) How would I go about learning how the game works? For the time being I'm naturally not concerned about complex strategies or anything. I just genuinely dont know a thing about the game and have no clue what a "typical" game looks like.
Thank you very much for any help I can get. Forgive me if this was just a huge search function fail from me. :D:D:D
1) undead were pretty much shit. humans were fine. orcs blademaster was op but rest was fine. night elf was very hard to play but pretty fine. the MU that was the most balanced was probably NE vs orc but the game was generally extremely unbalanced.
2) some small, wasn't too involved with that when i played, only hung out in a couple chats really
3) you can still ladder but you meet a wide range of skill due too how few play
4) watching and analyzing pro replays worked for me to learn how to respond to certain builds
On July 09 2011 10:46 n.DieJokes wrote: Can someone tell me about who the dominate players are and were and where some of the non grubby war3 players rising to prominence in sc2 came from? How good they were relatively and the korea/world balance
Yes that is a nice question as well! I am interested. :D:D
Also huge thanks to everyone who has answered questions so far.
The Chinese player Li "Sky" XiaoFeng is/was one of the most successful wc3 player. He was elected in to the WCG Official Hall Of Fame by winning the wc3 championship 2005 and 2006.
Haha, thank goodness someone posted some real WC3 pros. XD
Was getting worried that no one knew anybody, and I was gonna be the lone WC3 watcher. Granted everyone argues whether Lyn, Moon, Grubby, Sky are the best player, but basically those four were the kings. Think the TBLS of WC3
I'm actually not even vaguely familiar with Sky. Is he the slightly worse one out of their TBLS? ^^
1) The game is decently balanced but there is some stuff that players on every level find quite shitty: orc vs undead favors the orc significantly as a human you will face problems against undead (but there aren't many anyway ) also a while ago orcs were complaining about night elf (Grubby's most famous quote: "playing NE vs Orcs is like shooting handicapped ducks in a barrel"), but I don't think that's the case anymore...
other than racial imbalance there is another issue with wc3. it's the items that creeps drop. On some maps the items dropped significantly favor blademaster and demon hunter play. Those two heroes become ridiculously strong very early (espicially the blademaster...) Also, there is that item some people refer to as "GG tome" (tome of experience). If your opponent lucks out and gets 2 "gg tomes" his heroes will be much stronger than yours...
2) The community has shrunk over the past few years but there are still some sites like http://www.wcreplays.com/ Also waaaghtv used to be a great tool to watch pro games live (often with some awesome commentary) but I don't know how many games are still being shown there.
3) There are still some people playing wc3, so you should be able to find opponents of all skill levels on bnet.
4) To get started, I'd recommend watching a 2-3 replays of every match up involving the race you want to play. This should be enough to learn the basic build orders and strategies.
On July 09 2011 10:46 n.DieJokes wrote: Can someone tell me about who the dominate players are and were and where some of the non grubby war3 players rising to prominence in sc2 came from? How good they were relatively and the korea/world balance
Yes that is a nice question as well! I am interested. :D:D
Also huge thanks to everyone who has answered questions so far.
The Chinese player Li "Sky" XiaoFeng is/was one of the most successful wc3 player. He was elected in to the WCG Official Hall Of Fame by winning the wc3 championship 2005 and 2006.
Haha, thank goodness someone posted some real WC3 pros. XD
Was getting worried that no one knew anybody, and I was gonna be the lone WC3 watcher. Granted everyone argues whether Lyn, Moon, Grubby, Sky are the best player, but basically those four were the kings. Think the TBLS of WC3
I'm actually not even vaguely familiar with Sky. Is he the slightly worse one out of their TBLS? ^^
it's probably because he's the only one who still plays wc3 and not sc2.
professional wc3 pretty much survives only in china now.
i played wc3 and on WCReplays from 2006-2009ish and i can tell you that naniwa and thorzain were not that well known (at least outside of europe). i remember thorzain starting to really shine once all the big name pros started retiring tho. he had an exciting human style and didn't rely as much on mass towering iirc.
moon was one of the revolutionary figures (aow creeping, dotts vs orcs) and was called the 5th race. grubby was around since the beginning of roc i believe. sky burst into the scene with a timing push(sky push) with towers, casters that was op for a while (bisu-esque i suppose?)
I just have to say their latest patch gave Human towers "Fortified" armor again... basically means nothing can kill them... even a Blade Master can't chop through that *****. That being said, We put the BM through a dps generator in a short game, it did about 50% of the dps for the orc army. lol
WCR for communication.
most people still play the game for DotA. Hackers kinda wrecked the ladder that and the terrible terrible bad manner.
On July 09 2011 10:46 n.DieJokes wrote: Can someone tell me about who the dominate players are and were and where some of the non grubby war3 players rising to prominence in sc2 came from? How good they were relatively and the korea/world balance
Yes that is a nice question as well! I am interested. :D:D
Also huge thanks to everyone who has answered questions so far.
The Chinese player Li "Sky" XiaoFeng is/was one of the most successful wc3 player. He was elected in to the WCG Official Hall Of Fame by winning the wc3 championship 2005 and 2006.
Haha, thank goodness someone posted some real WC3 pros. XD
Was getting worried that no one knew anybody, and I was gonna be the lone WC3 watcher. Granted everyone argues whether Lyn, Moon, Grubby, Sky are the best player, but basically those four were the kings. Think the TBLS of WC3
I'm actually not even vaguely familiar with Sky. Is he the slightly worse one out of their TBLS? ^^
it's probably because he's the only one who still plays wc3 and not sc2.
professional wc3 pretty much survives only in china now.
i played wc3 and on WCReplays from 2006-2009ish and i can tell you that naniwa and thorzain were not that well known (at least outside of europe). i remember thorzain starting to really shine once all the big name pros started retiring tho. he had an exciting human style and didn't rely as much on mass towering iirc.
moon was one of the revolutionary figures (aow creeping, dotts vs orcs) and was called the 5th race. grubby was around since the beginning of roc i believe. sky burst into the scene with a timing push(sky push) with towers, casters that was op for a while (bisu-esque i suppose?)
Yeah that had a lot to do with it I'm sure. :D Really I mostly just knew of Moon because he was on Wemade heh.
Thanks for telling me a bit about the players too! I of course knew Moon was really good but I didn't know he was super revolutionary.
On July 09 2011 10:46 n.DieJokes wrote: Can someone tell me about who the dominate players are and were and where some of the non grubby war3 players rising to prominence in sc2 came from? How good they were relatively and the korea/world balance
Yes that is a nice question as well! I am interested. :D:D
Also huge thanks to everyone who has answered questions so far.
The Chinese player Li "Sky" XiaoFeng is/was one of the most successful wc3 player. He was elected in to the WCG Official Hall Of Fame by winning the wc3 championship 2005 and 2006.
Haha, thank goodness someone posted some real WC3 pros. XD
Was getting worried that no one knew anybody, and I was gonna be the lone WC3 watcher. Granted everyone argues whether Lyn, Moon, Grubby, Sky are the best player, but basically those four were the kings. Think the TBLS of WC3
I'm actually not even vaguely familiar with Sky. Is he the slightly worse one out of their TBLS? ^^
it's probably because he's the only one who still plays wc3 and not sc2.
professional wc3 pretty much survives only in china now.
i played wc3 and on WCReplays from 2006-2009ish and i can tell you that naniwa and thorzain were not that well known (at least outside of europe). i remember thorzain starting to really shine once all the big name pros started retiring tho. he had an exciting human style and didn't rely as much on mass towering iirc.
moon was one of the revolutionary figures (aow creeping, dotts vs orcs) and was called the 5th race. grubby was around since the beginning of roc i believe. sky burst into the scene with a timing push(sky push) with towers, casters that was op for a while (bisu-esque i suppose?)
Yeah that had a lot to do with it I'm sure. :D Really I mostly just knew of Moon because he was on Wemade heh.
Thanks for telling me a bit about the players too! I of course knew Moon was really good but I didn't know he was super revolutionary.
Cheak out this revolutionary micro-play by the fifth race himself. Moon Zeppelin Micro
On July 09 2011 10:46 n.DieJokes wrote: Can someone tell me about who the dominate players are and were and where some of the non grubby war3 players rising to prominence in sc2 came from? How good they were relatively and the korea/world balance
Yes that is a nice question as well! I am interested. :D:D
Also huge thanks to everyone who has answered questions so far.
The Chinese player Li "Sky" XiaoFeng is/was one of the most successful wc3 player. He was elected in to the WCG Official Hall Of Fame by winning the wc3 championship 2005 and 2006.
Haha, thank goodness someone posted some real WC3 pros. XD
Was getting worried that no one knew anybody, and I was gonna be the lone WC3 watcher. Granted everyone argues whether Lyn, Moon, Grubby, Sky are the best player, but basically those four were the kings. Think the TBLS of WC3
I'm actually not even vaguely familiar with Sky. Is he the slightly worse one out of their TBLS? ^^
it's probably because he's the only one who still plays wc3 and not sc2.
professional wc3 pretty much survives only in china now.
i played wc3 and on WCReplays from 2006-2009ish and i can tell you that naniwa and thorzain were not that well known (at least outside of europe). i remember thorzain starting to really shine once all the big name pros started retiring tho. he had an exciting human style and didn't rely as much on mass towering iirc.
moon was one of the revolutionary figures (aow creeping, dotts vs orcs) and was called the 5th race. grubby was around since the beginning of roc i believe. sky burst into the scene with a timing push(sky push) with towers, casters that was op for a while (bisu-esque i suppose?)
Yeah that had a lot to do with it I'm sure. :D Really I mostly just knew of Moon because he was on Wemade heh.
Thanks for telling me a bit about the players too! I of course knew Moon was really good but I didn't know he was super revolutionary.
Cheak out this revolutionary micro-play by the fifth race himself. Moon Zeppelin Micro
Ok Im sorry to be this derpy but I dont completely understand what is happening.
The zeppelin thing is like a Shuttle I guess? And he's microing the guys in and out to minimize damage? It also looked like maybe the shuttle was faster than some of his guys and he used the shuttle to move them forward faster but idk. >_>
On July 09 2011 10:46 n.DieJokes wrote: Can someone tell me about who the dominate players are and were and where some of the non grubby war3 players rising to prominence in sc2 came from? How good they were relatively and the korea/world balance
Yes that is a nice question as well! I am interested. :D:D
Also huge thanks to everyone who has answered questions so far.
The Chinese player Li "Sky" XiaoFeng is/was one of the most successful wc3 player. He was elected in to the WCG Official Hall Of Fame by winning the wc3 championship 2005 and 2006.
Haha, thank goodness someone posted some real WC3 pros. XD
Was getting worried that no one knew anybody, and I was gonna be the lone WC3 watcher. Granted everyone argues whether Lyn, Moon, Grubby, Sky are the best player, but basically those four were the kings. Think the TBLS of WC3
I'm actually not even vaguely familiar with Sky. Is he the slightly worse one out of their TBLS? ^^
it's probably because he's the only one who still plays wc3 and not sc2.
professional wc3 pretty much survives only in china now.
i played wc3 and on WCReplays from 2006-2009ish and i can tell you that naniwa and thorzain were not that well known (at least outside of europe). i remember thorzain starting to really shine once all the big name pros started retiring tho. he had an exciting human style and didn't rely as much on mass towering iirc.
moon was one of the revolutionary figures (aow creeping, dotts vs orcs) and was called the 5th race. grubby was around since the beginning of roc i believe. sky burst into the scene with a timing push(sky push) with towers, casters that was op for a while (bisu-esque i suppose?)
Yeah that had a lot to do with it I'm sure. :D Really I mostly just knew of Moon because he was on Wemade heh.
Thanks for telling me a bit about the players too! I of course knew Moon was really good but I didn't know he was super revolutionary.
Cheak out this revolutionary micro-play by the fifth race himself. Moon Zeppelin Micro
Ok Im sorry to be this derpy but I dont completely understand what is happening.
The zeppelin thing is like a Shuttle I guess? And he's microing the guys in and out to minimize damage? It also looked like maybe the shuttle was faster than some of his guys and he used the shuttle to move them forward faster but idk. >_>
Again, me super nooby,
It's basically very, very brilliant pick-and-drop micro to not only keep his own units alive but also to block the path of his opponent's units to keep them from escaping. Maximizing damage output while minimizing the damage he receives, essentially.
On July 09 2011 10:02 Bibbit wrote: Okay hi. I know a lot of TL'ers nowadays come from a War 3 background. I, however, am rooted in sc1. Not super deeply rooted, only started watching in late 2008 and was D+ max on a good day, but that's what I come from.
Anyways, more to the point. I played a tiny tiny bit of War 3 about a year ago. Nothing serious, just some games with a real life friend. I find the game kinda cool and for some reason just became interested in it. So I have some questions. ^_^
1) This one I'm afraid to ask: Is it generally considered well-balanced? Or is there a race that a ton of people play or nobody really plays?
2) Is there some sort of community for the game? Of course not expecting anything on the level of the wonderful site that is TL but is there anything?
3) Do people still play this game? I don't necessarily mean a pro-scene as I'm not aspiring to be high level. Just wondering if I were to go on a War 3 server, if anyone would be there. >_>
4) How would I go about learning how the game works? For the time being I'm naturally not concerned about complex strategies or anything. I just genuinely dont know a thing about the game and have no clue what a "typical" game looks like.
Thank you very much for any help I can get. Forgive me if this was just a huge search function fail from me. :D:D:D
i was quite involved into the wc3 community for awhile, i played and watched a ton of games for a good year or so.
anyways
1) balance. well it always switches around. for like 4 years orc was seen as shit. then suddenly they abused blademaster and it's all good. NE is always good. undead seems to have gotten the shaft lately. humans were super strong for a period of time. things change and i'd consider the game pretty balanced. you don't worry about balance cuz at a low level better player wins no ifs ands or buts.
2) community is decent. it's died since sc2 for sure. people like nanina cruncher came from a wc3 background if you didn't know. wc3replays is okay.
3) as i said people quit it for sc2, doesnt' mean noone plays. i'm sure a ton of chinese still play on garena.
4) wc3 is all about execution. no build orders or anything like that, executing your build microing your guys and picking fights. macro is a non-factor. you don't worry about when you take ur 3rd, you worry about what units to make when to fight and precise timings. typical game is 1 base vs 1 base and fast paced micro. whoever slips first loses a lot. if they don't slip up battle is decided in a big micro battle. who gets more creeps, who's got better items, more hero levels, if you get that invul pot used in time or if you get 1 more shockwave. it's very micro intensive with minute details. it's pretty much brood war without expansions and everything is magnified. if you lose a zergling(ghoul) to a marine(footman) it's much worse in wc3.
tl;dr the game is based on quick decision making and micro. timing execution, not macro/defense etc. there are no all ins except for like tower rushes. it's very strict and i can't stress how much execution is involved. there isn't any economy or macro and defense isn't really a known term.
On July 09 2011 10:46 n.DieJokes wrote: Can someone tell me about who the dominate players are and were and where some of the non grubby war3 players rising to prominence in sc2 came from? How good they were relatively and the korea/world balance
Yes that is a nice question as well! I am interested. :D:D
Also huge thanks to everyone who has answered questions so far.
The Chinese player Li "Sky" XiaoFeng is/was one of the most successful wc3 player. He was elected in to the WCG Official Hall Of Fame by winning the wc3 championship 2005 and 2006.
Haha, thank goodness someone posted some real WC3 pros. XD
Was getting worried that no one knew anybody, and I was gonna be the lone WC3 watcher. Granted everyone argues whether Lyn, Moon, Grubby, Sky are the best player, but basically those four were the kings. Think the TBLS of WC3
I'm actually not even vaguely familiar with Sky. Is he the slightly worse one out of their TBLS? ^^
it's probably because he's the only one who still plays wc3 and not sc2.
professional wc3 pretty much survives only in china now.
i played wc3 and on WCReplays from 2006-2009ish and i can tell you that naniwa and thorzain were not that well known (at least outside of europe). i remember thorzain starting to really shine once all the big name pros started retiring tho. he had an exciting human style and didn't rely as much on mass towering iirc.
moon was one of the revolutionary figures (aow creeping, dotts vs orcs) and was called the 5th race. grubby was around since the beginning of roc i believe. sky burst into the scene with a timing push(sky push) with towers, casters that was op for a while (bisu-esque i suppose?)
Yeah that had a lot to do with it I'm sure. :D Really I mostly just knew of Moon because he was on Wemade heh.
Thanks for telling me a bit about the players too! I of course knew Moon was really good but I didn't know he was super revolutionary.
Cheak out this revolutionary micro-play by the fifth race himself. Moon Zeppelin Micro
Ok Im sorry to be this derpy but I dont completely understand what is happening.
The zeppelin thing is like a Shuttle I guess? And he's microing the guys in and out to minimize damage? It also looked like maybe the shuttle was faster than some of his guys and he used the shuttle to move them forward faster but idk. >_>
Again, me super nooby,
It's basically very, very brilliant pick-and-drop micro to not only keep his own units alive but also to block the path of his opponent's units to keep them from escaping. Maximizing damage output while minimizing the damage he receives, essentially.
Oh okay I didnt catch the blocking of the escape route. I'll have to look again.
And thanks to everyone who's been helping. I'm getting an idea whats up now. <3
Wrote that in the Warcraft 3 scene thread 1 1/2 days ago:
On July 08 2011 01:27 Lucumo wrote: Hm, SoJu is still playing regularly, even streaming. You can watch him if you want: http://justin.tv/ddim3822 Soccer is still playing as well, and a lot of Chinese players of course.
(At ~1am KST he had around 800 viewers on afreeca and I was told that at peak times he gets ~1500. So I guess there are still some people interested.)
On July 09 2011 10:46 n.DieJokes wrote: Can someone tell me about who the dominate players are and were and where some of the non grubby war3 players rising to prominence in sc2 came from? How good they were relatively and the korea/world balance
Yes that is a nice question as well! I am interested. :D:D
Also huge thanks to everyone who has answered questions so far.
The Chinese player Li "Sky" XiaoFeng is/was one of the most successful wc3 player. He was elected in to the WCG Official Hall Of Fame by winning the wc3 championship 2005 and 2006.
Was getting worried that no one knew anybody, and I was gonna be the lone WC3 watcher. Granted everyone argues whether Lyn, Moon, Grubby, Sky are the best player, but basically those four were the kings. Think the TBLS of WC3
Moon was the best player, imo Still remember how he 3-0'ed Grubby in the battle of gods or whatever they called it. And he wasn't called the fifth race for nothing
TaKe needs to answer in this thread considering he switched to SC2 and is fairly active here. He used to be a player/commentator.
Balance also depends on the map. Health fountain favors Orc because they have units with a lot of hitpoints and mana fountain favours Undead. Unlike in Broodwar, they don't really include new maps in their games, so it always stays the same. Ah, and Humans have ways to lame it out. Build 384434 towers or send siege tanks into your opponents base.
On July 09 2011 10:02 Bibbit wrote: Okay hi. I know a lot of TL'ers nowadays come from a War 3 background. I, however, am rooted in sc1. Not super deeply rooted, only started watching in late 2008 and was D+ max on a good day, but that's what I come from.
Anyways, more to the point. I played a tiny tiny bit of War 3 about a year ago. Nothing serious, just some games with a real life friend. I find the game kinda cool and for some reason just became interested in it. So I have some questions. ^_^
1) This one I'm afraid to ask: Is it generally considered well-balanced? Or is there a race that a ton of people play or nobody really plays?
2) Is there some sort of community for the game? Of course not expecting anything on the level of the wonderful site that is TL but is there anything?
3) Do people still play this game? I don't necessarily mean a pro-scene as I'm not aspiring to be high level. Just wondering if I were to go on a War 3 server, if anyone would be there. >_>
4) How would I go about learning how the game works? For the time being I'm naturally not concerned about complex strategies or anything. I just genuinely dont know a thing about the game and have no clue what a "typical" game looks like.
Thank you very much for any help I can get. Forgive me if this was just a huge search function fail from me. :D:D:D
i was quite involved into the wc3 community for awhile, i played and watched a ton of games for a good year or so.
anyways
1) balance. well it always switches around. for like 4 years orc was seen as shit. then suddenly they abused blademaster and it's all good. NE is always good. undead seems to have gotten the shaft lately. humans were super strong for a period of time. things change and i'd consider the game pretty balanced. you don't worry about balance cuz at a low level better player wins no ifs ands or buts.
2) community is decent. it's died since sc2 for sure. people like nanina cruncher came from a wc3 background if you didn't know. wc3replays is okay.
3) as i said people quit it for sc2, doesnt' mean noone plays. i'm sure a ton of chinese still play on garena.
4) wc3 is all about execution. no build orders or anything like that, executing your build microing your guys and picking fights. macro is a non-factor. you don't worry about when you take ur 3rd, you worry about what units to make when to fight and precise timings. typical game is 1 base vs 1 base and fast paced micro. whoever slips first loses a lot. if they don't slip up battle is decided in a big micro battle. who gets more creeps, who's got better items, more hero levels, if you get that invul pot used in time or if you get 1 more shockwave. it's very micro intensive with minute details. it's pretty much brood war without expansions and everything is magnified. if you lose a zergling(ghoul) to a marine(footman) it's much worse in wc3.
tl;dr the game is based on quick decision making and micro. timing execution, not macro/defense etc. there are no all ins except for like tower rushes. it's very strict and i can't stress how much execution is involved. there isn't any economy or macro and defense isn't really a known term.
Good post. But I don't agree with macro and economy. #1. Economy takes the form of upkeep. There is a trade-off and it is actually very important. #2. While WC is not a "macro game", macro is definitely not a non-factor. Even though there are usually just 2-3 buildings you build out of, the timing of each unit is different, meaning you can't just pump marines out of 5 rax every half a minute. And when you are fighting or creeping it's actually quite easy to slip on macro.
Moon was extraordinary to watch. Too bad he didn't win any WCG (Is that correct? I think when I quit wc3, one of his short coming is not winning the WCG).
War3 is definitely a Micro and unit combo game with scrolls and items to make this killer combo. Kinda RPG in a sense but when you put enough games in you know the most effective combination to use to counter another's players combo.
There were never a well organised community like the TL, but for some reason this game got big in China and for a time is where the money and tournaments are.
Personally I find it very stressful to play and require a lot of APM to keep up with every thing else but I do suggest everyone to play it if only for a little while, I've find that it helps your micro in Starcraft a lot, teaches you a lot about positioning, surrounds and executing your build.
The game was unattractive to me as it all boils down to an endgame with two armies. It wasn't really strategy.
4Kings which is the team that Grubby was in got really really famous during this time but 4Kings was a pretty old gaming Clan if anyone can remember the earlier CS / Quake days.
On July 09 2011 10:02 Bibbit wrote: Okay hi. I know a lot of TL'ers nowadays come from a War 3 background. I, however, am rooted in sc1. Not super deeply rooted, only started watching in late 2008 and was D+ max on a good day, but that's what I come from.
Anyways, more to the point. I played a tiny tiny bit of War 3 about a year ago. Nothing serious, just some games with a real life friend. I find the game kinda cool and for some reason just became interested in it. So I have some questions. ^_^
1) This one I'm afraid to ask: Is it generally considered well-balanced? Or is there a race that a ton of people play or nobody really plays?
2) Is there some sort of community for the game? Of course not expecting anything on the level of the wonderful site that is TL but is there anything?
3) Do people still play this game? I don't necessarily mean a pro-scene as I'm not aspiring to be high level. Just wondering if I were to go on a War 3 server, if anyone would be there. >_>
4) How would I go about learning how the game works? For the time being I'm naturally not concerned about complex strategies or anything. I just genuinely dont know a thing about the game and have no clue what a "typical" game looks like.
Thank you very much for any help I can get. Forgive me if this was just a huge search function fail from me. :D:D:D
i was quite involved into the wc3 community for awhile, i played and watched a ton of games for a good year or so.
anyways
1) balance. well it always switches around. for like 4 years orc was seen as shit. then suddenly they abused blademaster and it's all good. NE is always good. undead seems to have gotten the shaft lately. humans were super strong for a period of time. things change and i'd consider the game pretty balanced. you don't worry about balance cuz at a low level better player wins no ifs ands or buts.
2) community is decent. it's died since sc2 for sure. people like nanina cruncher came from a wc3 background if you didn't know. wc3replays is okay.
3) as i said people quit it for sc2, doesnt' mean noone plays. i'm sure a ton of chinese still play on garena.
4) wc3 is all about execution. no build orders or anything like that, executing your build microing your guys and picking fights. macro is a non-factor. you don't worry about when you take ur 3rd, you worry about what units to make when to fight and precise timings. typical game is 1 base vs 1 base and fast paced micro. whoever slips first loses a lot. if they don't slip up battle is decided in a big micro battle. who gets more creeps, who's got better items, more hero levels, if you get that invul pot used in time or if you get 1 more shockwave. it's very micro intensive with minute details. it's pretty much brood war without expansions and everything is magnified. if you lose a zergling(ghoul) to a marine(footman) it's much worse in wc3.
tl;dr the game is based on quick decision making and micro. timing execution, not macro/defense etc. there are no all ins except for like tower rushes. it's very strict and i can't stress how much execution is involved. there isn't any economy or macro and defense isn't really a known term.
#1. Economy takes the form of upkeep. There is a trade-off and it is actually very important.
Yeah. There are two "limits", 50 and 80 supply. When you break those limits, you start to mine less gold. Staying at a cap as long as possible to save up money and longer than your opponent is generally good. But you also need to scout, so that you don't end up fighting someone with 80 supply or more because you failed to see that he went into upkeep. It's common to kill a worker of yours when you hit 51 supply by accident. You can also compensate by building an expansion. Humans generally build one, followed by Orc and then Nelf/Undead. (Hm, NE and UD didn't have any timings regarding that, right? Been so long since I last really watched it.)
NE was pretty free to spam expansion in my experience. It is easier and cheaper plus you can hide an expo as their buildings can walk :/
Undead expand the least and often they only expand in the end game when they have to. Humans can do fast expo in the very early game by rallying their peasants but this is generally map dependent and risky in a way as your opponent can hijack your battle.
Orc in my experience is pretty weak against timing attacks.
It depends. Assuming you didn't screw up in early game (i.e. losing your hero multiple times, got high jacked creeps too many times, losing to timing push.) then it can go on for quite a while.
But generally I think the game is around 20 or so mins but if you consistently play against players equal to your level then it would be longer.
On July 09 2011 14:18 haduken wrote: NE was pretty free to spam expansion in my experience. It is easier and cheaper plus you can hide an expo as their buildings can walk :/
Pretty sure that only applied in certain situations though. Moon also used that "strategy"(dunno whether you can call mass expo that way) way more frequently than other players. And yeah, looks like they didn't have any timings regarding that.
On July 09 2011 14:21 Bibbit wrote: Ok another question. ^^
About how long is a typical game?
They can get pretty long. 20-25 minutes is, if I remember correctly, pretty typical, but games can often hit 30+ minutes, and nobody would really raise an eyebrow. They're pretty tiring, ngl, but I do find them more relaxing than SC2 given the slower pace of the game.
If you get the opportunity, you should watch Grubby's WC3 commentaries. (Just youtube them.) They're pretty entertaining and awesome. Though really, any games involving Sky, Moon, Grubby, or Lyn are pretty fantastic.
On July 09 2011 10:35 Sufficiency wrote: I came from an extensive wc3 background. I used to be fairly highly for solo and ffa ladder, and I consider myself a fairly decent player. I play Human and Undead.
1. WC3 is just as balanced as BW. 2. Donno 3. Donno 4. There are no 'complex' strategies. The game is about how to outmicro your opponent. Unlike BW, when you play wc3 your goal is to kill as many enemy units as possible while losing as few of yours as possible. Since your opponent wants to do the same thing, that's when things get complex.
There are several ways to kill enemy units while keeping yours alive. I will tell you one of them. One important aspect of wc3 is surrounding. It's kind of similar to zerglings surrounding zealots, except it's universal; any race, under any circumstances, needs to be aware of this. Since units in wc3 got a lot of life, when good players play, they almost never lose units unless it's due to surrounding or some sort of ability that hinders movement. Also note since in wc3 you don't have a lot of units to begin with, it's a bit trickier to form a surround - especially if you are orc.
With this in mind, you also want to be able to avoid getting surrounded. There are certain ways to do that: for example, guess what your opponent is doing and move your unit out of the way; or, tag a unit to your unit getting surrounded, thus forming an exit.
You most likely need only one build order (or two at most) and they are all very easy.
Hmm, you are right, NE expo timing is map dependent though. Moon was different because his play style was just ... too different to the rest of the NE players.
On July 09 2011 10:35 Sufficiency wrote: I came from an extensive wc3 background. I used to be fairly highly for solo and ffa ladder, and I consider myself a fairly decent player. I play Human and Undead.
1. WC3 is just as balanced as BW. 2. Donno 3. Donno 4. There are no 'complex' strategies. The game is about how to outmicro your opponent. Unlike BW, when you play wc3 your goal is to kill as many enemy units as possible while losing as few of yours as possible. Since your opponent wants to do the same thing, that's when things get complex.
There are several ways to kill enemy units while keeping yours alive. I will tell you one of them. One important aspect of wc3 is surrounding. It's kind of similar to zerglings surrounding zealots, except it's universal; any race, under any circumstances, needs to be aware of this. Since units in wc3 got a lot of life, when good players play, they almost never lose units unless it's due to surrounding or some sort of ability that hinders movement. Also note since in wc3 you don't have a lot of units to begin with, it's a bit trickier to form a surround - especially if you are orc.
With this in mind, you also want to be able to avoid getting surrounded. There are certain ways to do that: for example, guess what your opponent is doing and move your unit out of the way; or, tag a unit to your unit getting surrounded, thus forming an exit.
You most likely need only one build order (or two at most) and they are all very easy.
Oh dear lord I hope you're trolling.
Why is he trolling? He was right on the money on the surrounding. I
Hokay I really need top-class troll detectors in here. I dont know enough to figure out if someones being really dumb and I shouldnt listen to them. :D
On July 09 2011 14:39 Bibbit wrote: Hokay I really need top-class troll detectors in here. I dont know enough to figure out if someones being really dumb and I shouldnt listen to them. :D
The surrounding part is right. That and blocking your opponent's units(when they run) is a crucial element in the game.
mirror matchups were often decided by random item drops. In orc v orc if your blademaster got 2 mantles while creeping and the other one got two circlets you were in for one hell of a game
undead generally considered the worst race due to high cost of expansions, and low worker protection. Undead would have to spend the most on an expansion (haunt mine + necropolis) and acolytes had the least protection of any worker. oh and because ud vs orc was probably impossible
Hi Bibbit. I've played War3 since 04, and I'll try answer your questions to the best of my ability.
1) This one I'm afraid to ask: Is it generally considered well-balanced? Or is there a race that a ton of people play or nobody really plays?
Answer: In my most honest opinion, I consider the game very, and I mean very well balanced overall given the set of chance involved as well. Then of course, as for SC1 and 2, some maps favours different races. For example, there's this one map with 2 heal fountains in the corners where Undead is having a really tough time against Orc, mainly because the free harassability the orc's given with the free heal.
One general consensus as well is that in late game, Orc, or mainly the Blademaster becomes too buff if the orc is lucky enough to find some sweet powerup items. Blademaster and the Panda are the two only heroes that have a passive ability which is procentually increased in efficiency with the more + attack damage items the hero carries. Example: If the Blademaster is level 5, he has critical strike on level 3. If he now then as well carries items so his attack bonus is something around +30 (Kodo aura included), then his critical strikes can end up doing around 350-400 damage. Which I consider too much. Without the powerup items, he'll do around 250-280.
2) Is there some sort of community for the game? Of course not expecting anything on the level of the wonderful site that is TL but is there anything?
We have: Wcreplays.com - Well known for audio-files and well writen articles. They're talking mainly about SC2 nowadays though.
Gosugamers.net - Have a small but loyal Wc3 crew and following. You can ask any question in their Wc3 forum and you'll probably get an answer sooner or later.
Tft.replayers.com - A replay uploading and downloading site. Has no forums and focuses primarily on discussing the actual games, which can be very nice at times.
3) Do people still play this game? I don't necessarily mean a pro-scene as I'm not aspiring to be high level. Just wondering if I were to go on a War 3 server, if anyone would be there. >_>
Oh, I'm playing. Both TFT and ROC (Yes, I actually still have friends from back in 05 here who havn't ever touched TFT). My main ID is LittLe(D), but my stats are reset since I havn't played the ladder for like, 2 years. I play custom with friends mostly nowadays. PM me here on TL if you'd be interested in playing.
4) How would I go about learning how the game works? For the time being I'm naturally not concerned about complex strategies or anything. I just genuinely dont know a thing about the game and have no clue what a "typical" game looks like.
Never been good at answering this question...hmm. How about, you focus on one race to begin with. And you try it out in custom vs an easy computer, just to get the grip of what the units does etc. What you can do after that is to download some casual replays (Right side) from tft.replayers.com to get a grip of some standard build orders and what units are good against what etc. After that, I well I guess just go play the ladder or customs. I could be interested in helping you learn the game. PM me.
So, guess that was all. Sorry for terrible English as well :_: and GL with the learning process.
And a quick note, Wc3 is the best game I've ever been lucky enough to lay my hands on. You choose wisely my friend.
EDIT: Someone adviced on the Grubby commentaries. Excellent idea! Here is episode 1, all other episodes are on the same channel: + Show Spoiler +
On July 09 2011 14:21 Bibbit wrote: Ok another question. ^^
About how long is a typical game?
It heavily depends on map, level of play and races involved. A general pro-match I'd say lasts around 14-17 minutes on avarage. On a more casual level, well as I said it differs heavily. I can have games end after lik 8-10 minutes or have games proceeding on for 30+ minutes, it's really nothing unusual.
The shortest Pro replay I've watched I think ended after 3 minutes. It was an Undead guy named Happy (Plays Sc2 now) vs an Elf on a fairly short map. Happy sent out 3 ghouls fast as hell to harass a standard creeping spot for the elves, and messed it up completely. Came in with his hero, did one coil, surrounded the opposing hero and took the game from there.
Longest? Hmm, probably something around 1 and a half hour. Can't remember right now but it's most certainly a human, and siege tanks involved. Hehe
I followed the wc3 seen from around the time it started, and can clear up a few things!
Firstly your questions: 1) The general consensus (although not really my opinion) is that Orc is slightly stronger than Night Elf and Human, with Undead being slightly weaker. However i believe this is mainly due to the fact that the Orc vs Undead matchup is significantly in Orc's favor. I believe Orc, Night Elf and Human are balanced almost (if not) perfectly and also believe Night Elf, Human and Undead are balanced almost perfectly. It's just the Orc vs Undead matchup that throws off the balance in wc3, with Orc getting almost free-wins in tournaments everytime they face Undeads, it skews the results.
2) The best site in terms of a wc3 community probably was gosugamers (at least i found so), however now it basically just has the results of the latest matches with 3-10 comments on some.. The scene really took a hit with the release of sc2.
3) Yes, people still play this game.. Although not nearly as many as once upon a time, but if you log-on to battle.net (not the trashy 2.0!!) you will most definitely find a game.
4) Replays, i guess. Theres no real 'day9 daily' equivilant for wc3 that i know of.
Now to get a little off-topic!
On July 09 2011 11:38 Torenhire wrote: Granted everyone argues whether Lyn, Moon, Grubby, Sky are the best player, but basically those four were the kings. Think the TBLS of WC3
Lyn is definitely slightly lower than Moon, Grubby and Sky on that list. In terms of skill, hes definitely on par with them, but he only rose to that level in 2008 really. At the time the scene began to die down, i would say he was most definitely the best player out of these 4. However in terms of achievements he would have to be below the other 3, as they had already been dominating the scene for years beforehand.
My ranking terms of all-time (achievements) would be: + Show Spoiler +
1. Moon 2. Grubby 3. Sky 4. Lyn 5. ReMinD/ToD With others narrowly missing out (e.g Fly, Infi, TH000, Creo and players who were great, but never won the titles to back this up and several old-schoolers who were great, but didnt stick around long enough to be considered in an all time ranking imo, for example, Lucifer, TeD, SoJu etc. and Zacard, Dayfly, Madfrog, Insomnia etc.)
And as for a top 5 in terms of skill at the time wc3 started to decline: + Show Spoiler +
1. Lyn 2. TH000 3. Infi 4. Fly 5. SocceR
In terms of greatest games/must-see games, plenty spring to mind. For old-school Moon vs ToD (at WEG 2005, i think?!) on Twisted Meadows stands out. + Show Spoiler +
Moon showing off amazing use of Dark Ranger's charm ability. When ToD gets a surround on his Dark Ranger all alone, Moon charms a sorceress, to cast invisibility on his hero, and break the surround to save it. Also (and probably most memorable part of the game) Moon charmed ToD's peasant, and used 2 human heroes against him!
And more recently, ReMinD and Grubby played a really tense/epic game on Echo Isles in the WCG grand final last year. I also really loved a NightElf mirror between Moon and SocceR not long before sc2's release which saw every unit in the nightelf arsenal used (even mountain giants and chimaera!).
And lastly (before i end this gigantic wall of text!), some famous wc3 players who now play sc2! + Show Spoiler +
Lyn Moon SocceR Grubby Happy ToD RotterdaM Hasuobs Naniwa Thorzain NightEnd Check Zenio Naama Demuslim Insolence Madfrog Lucifron Xiaot Moonglade And probably many more i forgot to mention!
this thread brings back so much memories. i was pretty into the WC3 scene about 2 years ago, and when i started to get into SC/SC2 i was surprised at the number of familiar names i see. great that someone is showing interest!
Great games? Tod vs Moon wasn't great, was quite onesided actually and just Moon trolling.
-Moon vs his nemesis, the best Undead ever, FoV, at the WCG qualifier 05 or 06 on Twisted Meadows. Such a sick high level NvU in every aspect, like 40 mins of pure skill and action
-FoV vs Grubby on Gnoll Wood @ ESWC 05 - Fov using a unit combo nobody thought would be viable against the Undeadkiller Grubby in such an amazing fashion, MUST WATCH
-Moon vs Grubby @ Turtle Rock during the WEG ToD won(06 afaik), just mindblowing - the winner jumped onto the table afterwards, because he was so pumped after winning it
-FoV vs GoStop @ Echo Isles, just because the winner wins with exactly 1 supply vs 0 :D
And so many more...
Just posting names of good games is not enough, so here is one example of a great game I really enjoyed:
Not really trolling. Being able to block and clamp down units effectively by using the terrible unit pathing is a part of the micro in the game?
The unit pathing isn't terrible? oO
On July 09 2011 17:19 IceSlipper wrote: And lastly (before i end this gigantic wall of text!), some famous wc3 players who now play sc2! + Show Spoiler +
SocceR And probably many more i forgot to mention!
Soccer is still playing and streaming WC3 though. Are you sure he switched?
On July 09 2011 17:19 IceSlipper wrote: And lastly (before i end this gigantic wall of text!), some famous wc3 players who now play sc2! + Show Spoiler +
SocceR And probably many more i forgot to mention!
Soccer is still playing and streaming WC3 though. Are you sure he switched?
He's "switched" in that he now also plays SC2, but he has not stopped playing WC3. (Neither have Moon or Lyn as far as I can tell.) WMF's SC2 roster is basically their WC3 roster.
On July 09 2011 17:19 IceSlipper wrote: And lastly (before i end this gigantic wall of text!), some famous wc3 players who now play sc2! + Show Spoiler +
SocceR And probably many more i forgot to mention!
Soccer is still playing and streaming WC3 though. Are you sure he switched?
He's "switched" in that he now also plays SC2, but he has not stopped playing WC3. (Neither have Moon or Lyn as far as I can tell.) WMF's SC2 roster is basically their WC3 roster.
And WC3 unit pathing is pretty good, IMHO.
Hm, wonder how he distributes his time though, considering that he is still pretty active in the WC3 scene. Really have to ask this the Koreans who always watch him play.
Yeah, and I guess it isn't surprising that one retard/troll defends another one -_-
Around the '04 to '05 point, it appeared that WC3 was garnering itself a scene similar to BW's. The two main people driving this were KidArctica and Bunny, on the website wcreplays.com. They went to the events, took pictures, did interviews, shoutcasted games, and provided real nice writeups (KidA's stuff was on par with the awesome TL writeups during the BW days). Surrounding them was a nice set of staff to make the workload easier on them, but it was very apparent that KidA and Bunny were the forces behind everything, doing a lot of the managing of stuff on the website and physically attending events or in some capacity providing coverage by means of shoutcasting.
I'm not entirely sure why or how it happened, but KidA just kinda disappeared. I believe it was WoW that got her. I remember seeing posts about how much time she was sinking into the new WoW betas that were coming out. Bunny took the reigns for quite a while and continued to make things awesome and weave a semblance of a community feeling, but she disappeared eventually. I think she got a new job or something.
I can't speak for how things were after 2007, but if nobody else took up the reigns to keep the ball moving, then I'd say 2004-2006 was the highpoint of WC3's lifespan.
Personally, I find that WC3 is more fun to play than SC2. I had so much fun playing that game whether was it in solo or multi games. The concept of focus firing, surrounding, retreat although in SC BW and SC2 also, is a little bit more important IMO. I'm not trying to bash SC2 or anything, but mostly in gold leagues and below, all you do in fights is attack move, watch the fight. Everything is dying so fast you don't have time to react properly. In WC3, an orc grunt is going to live forever. Literally. If the orc players loses its 2 early game grunts, oh man, good luck.
It's such a shame WC3 just died. If one day, WC3 becomes popular again, I'm definitly switching. I have to say that WC3 is just plain boring to watch if you have no clue what's going on. A SC2 match is usually fun to watch because it's fast paced, but It's boring for most people to watch WC3 heroes walk around and creep and not engaging in fights for 10 minutes.
famous SC3 players would be Sky, Moon, Grubby, Tod (SHUT YOUR NOSE XD). IMHO, they were the flash, jaedong, stork, bisu of WC3.
On July 10 2011 04:22 PetitCrabe wrote: Personally, I find that WC3 is more fun to play than SC2. I had so much fun playing that game whether was it in solo or multi games. The concept of focus firing, surrounding, retreat although in SC BW and SC2 also, is a little bit more important IMO. I'm not trying to bash SC2 or anything, but mostly in gold leagues and below, all you do in fights is attack move, watch the fight. Everything is dying so fast you don't have time to react properly. In WC3, an orc grunt is going to live forever. Literally. If the orc players loses its 2 early game grunts, oh man, good luck.
It's such a shame WC3 just died. If one day, WC3 becomes popular again, I'm definitly switching. I have to say that WC3 is just plain boring to watch if you have no clue what's going on. A SC2 match is usually fun to watch because it's fast paced, but It's boring for most people to watch WC3 heroes walk around and creep and not engaging in fights for 10 minutes.
famous SC3 players would be Sky, Moon, Grubby, Tod (SHUT YOUR NOSE XD). IMHO, they were the flash, jaedong, stork, bisu of WC3.
I agree. WC3 is fun to play but boring to watch. SC2 is fun to watch, but (for me) too tiring because there are way too many things to do and too unforgiving.
Also I don't know who the hell would think I was trolling about surrounding. In wc3, being able to surround quickly and efficiently with minimal number of units is an essential part of the game and one of the core skills of a progamer in wc3. A single good surround on a hero can instantly make you win the game.
On July 10 2011 04:22 PetitCrabe wrote: Personally, I find that WC3 is more fun to play than SC2. I had so much fun playing that game whether was it in solo or multi games. The concept of focus firing, surrounding, retreat although in SC BW and SC2 also, is a little bit more important IMO. I'm not trying to bash SC2 or anything, but mostly in gold leagues and below, all you do in fights is attack move, watch the fight. Everything is dying so fast you don't have time to react properly. In WC3, an orc grunt is going to live forever. Literally. If the orc players loses its 2 early game grunts, oh man, good luck.
It's such a shame WC3 just died. If one day, WC3 becomes popular again, I'm definitly switching. I have to say that WC3 is just plain boring to watch if you have no clue what's going on. A SC2 match is usually fun to watch because it's fast paced, but It's boring for most people to watch WC3 heroes walk around and creep and not engaging in fights for 10 minutes.
famous SC3 players would be Sky, Moon, Grubby, Tod (SHUT YOUR NOSE XD). IMHO, they were the flash, jaedong, stork, bisu of WC3.
I agree. WC3 is fun to play but boring to watch. SC2 is fun to watch, but (for me) too tiring because there are way too many things to do and too unforgiving.
Also I don't know who the hell would think I was trolling about surrounding. In wc3, being able to surround quickly and efficiently with minimal number of units is an essential part of the game and one of the core skills of a progamer in wc3. A single good surround on a hero can instantly make you win the game.
On July 10 2011 04:22 PetitCrabe wrote: Personally, I find that WC3 is more fun to play than SC2. I had so much fun playing that game whether was it in solo or multi games. The concept of focus firing, surrounding, retreat although in SC BW and SC2 also, is a little bit more important IMO. I'm not trying to bash SC2 or anything, but mostly in gold leagues and below, all you do in fights is attack move, watch the fight. Everything is dying so fast you don't have time to react properly. In WC3, an orc grunt is going to live forever. Literally. If the orc players loses its 2 early game grunts, oh man, good luck.
It's such a shame WC3 just died. If one day, WC3 becomes popular again, I'm definitly switching. I have to say that WC3 is just plain boring to watch if you have no clue what's going on. A SC2 match is usually fun to watch because it's fast paced, but It's boring for most people to watch WC3 heroes walk around and creep and not engaging in fights for 10 minutes.
famous SC3 players would be Sky, Moon, Grubby, Tod (SHUT YOUR NOSE XD). IMHO, they were the flash, jaedong, stork, bisu of WC3.
I agree. WC3 is fun to play but boring to watch. SC2 is fun to watch, but (for me) too tiring because there are way too many things to do and too unforgiving.
Also I don't know who the hell would think I was trolling about surrounding. In wc3, being able to surround quickly and efficiently with minimal number of units is an essential part of the game and one of the core skills of a progamer in wc3. A single good surround on a hero can instantly make you win the game.
Agreed. SC2 sometimes makes me want to throw my keyboard out the window due to frustration. WC3, on the other hand, is such a chill game (and when I tilt on SC2, I go to WC3 and dick around in the 4v4s). But SC2 is more fun to watch. You get far more "I watch but don't play" fans for SC2 than for WC3.
Hope they come out with a WC4 one day. I think I'd switch in a heartbeat.
On July 10 2011 09:52 Bibbit wrote: Alright, I have a less "competitive" question. How was the campaign? Not in terms of learning the game but rather story-wise.
I thought it was a lot of fun, in particular the TFT campaign, though the RoC campaign was entertaining too. I actually played through them multiple times, and the story was pretty darn good, IMHO, especially for a fantasy setting.
Oh replays in wc3 always find a reason not to work. The campaign is my favourite in all of the RTS's I've played (story-wise).
On July 10 2011 01:08 haduken wrote: How is unit pathing terrible in War3? It was way way better than BW... I don't think it even matters in War3, a TP is always on hand to use ^^
Unit pathing is great because you can abuse it in wc3 or DotA. Thats one of the reasons why I dont play LoL or Hon
On a related note, does anyone else think that the RTS team at Blizzard will start working on WC4 after they finish with the SC2 expansion? I think it is a possibility and I don't see how can it hurt the WoW playerbase when they are 2 different genres.
I don't know if this particular incident 'killed' WC3 in Korea... it's more like WC3 never even took off. OGN had like 1 or 2 seasons and then just fizzed out. While Koreans still dominated the scene, it wasn't nearly as centralized as BW was to Korea.
the announcement of sc2 + the recession killed wc3. a few weeks after the big 'recession' all the teams dropped their wc3 divisions and decided that it just wasn't worth it to keep going in the long run.
On July 09 2011 19:29 clusen wrote: Great games? Tod vs Moon wasn't great, was quite onesided actually and just Moon trolling.
-Moon vs his nemesis, the best Undead ever, FoV, at the WCG qualifier 05 or 06 on Twisted Meadows. Such a sick high level NvU in every aspect, like 40 mins of pure skill and action
-FoV vs Grubby on Gnoll Wood @ ESWC 05 - Fov using a unit combo nobody thought would be viable against the Undeadkiller Grubby in such an amazing fashion, MUST WATCH
-Moon vs Grubby @ Turtle Rock during the WEG ToD won(06 afaik), just mindblowing - the winner jumped onto the table afterwards, because he was so pumped after winning it
-FoV vs GoStop @ Echo Isles, just because the winner wins with exactly 1 supply vs 0 :D
And so many more...
Just posting names of good games is not enough, so here is one example of a great game I really enjoyed:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PwZ7dsuWSrw (has 3 parts and German casting)
for me the best ever played in my brief wc3 experience is the wcg finals between creo and sky. it was amazing. 4k was having trouble with fov leaving and their other guys(fury and someone else) doing nothing. only grubby and tod were doing shit. then creo comes along, noone thinks too much, and he just completely comes and dominates the scene. then he announces his retirement, and i was dissapointed. i was amazed at how fast he came onto the scene and dominated.
then he says he's gonna prepare for wcg 2007 like 2-3months before and he makes it all the way to the finals. now he was like 20-80 underdog because he had a much easier bracket while sky had to kill all the big pros(i think, a little blurry). he loses the first game. he then fucking tower rushes sky on the second game cuz he thought he was gonna lose anyways i think. after that it comes to a third game where creo stopped sky from fast expanding. then it fucking went into 1base vs 1 base riflecaster vs NE, i didn't see a single riflecaster game in like months. it comes down to the wire then creo gets level 6 demonhunter, GG.
heres the game i just watched it it still makes me soooo hype
It seems like the russian wc3 scene is pretty strong (goodgame.ru), and the chinese scene is pretty good but they have been kind of segregated from everyone else because they use a difficult to use chinese language client and like 90% of them play on older patches. Not to mention their inet connection issues
I think in general the bnet servers should be fine for finding games for people who aren't very good/ just starting out
On July 09 2011 19:29 clusen wrote: Great games? Tod vs Moon wasn't great, was quite onesided actually and just Moon trolling.
-Moon vs his nemesis, the best Undead ever, FoV, at the WCG qualifier 05 or 06 on Twisted Meadows. Such a sick high level NvU in every aspect, like 40 mins of pure skill and action
-FoV vs Grubby on Gnoll Wood @ ESWC 05 - Fov using a unit combo nobody thought would be viable against the Undeadkiller Grubby in such an amazing fashion, MUST WATCH
-Moon vs Grubby @ Turtle Rock during the WEG ToD won(06 afaik), just mindblowing - the winner jumped onto the table afterwards, because he was so pumped after winning it
-FoV vs GoStop @ Echo Isles, just because the winner wins with exactly 1 supply vs 0 :D
And so many more...
Just posting names of good games is not enough, so here is one example of a great game I really enjoyed:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PwZ7dsuWSrw (has 3 parts and German casting)
for me the best ever played in my brief wc3 experience is the wcg finals between creo and sky. it was amazing. 4k was having trouble with fov leaving and their other guys(fury and someone else) doing nothing. only grubby and tod were doing shit. then creo comes along, noone thinks too much, and he just completely comes and dominates the scene. then he announces his retirement, and i was dissapointed. i was amazed at how fast he came onto the scene and dominated.
then he says he's gonna prepare for wcg 2007 like 2-3months before and he makes it all the way to the finals. now he was like 20-80 underdog because he had a much easier bracket while sky had to kill all the big pros(i think, a little blurry). he loses the first game. he then fucking tower rushes sky on the second game cuz he thought he was gonna lose anyways i think. after that it comes to a third game where creo stopped sky from fast expanding. then it fucking went into 1base vs 1 base riflecaster vs NE, i didn't see a single riflecaster game in like months. it comes down to the wire then creo gets level 6 demonhunter, GG.
god damn, i remember creo's reign of dominance pretty much from the instant he hopped onto 4k. he used to be just another dude who posted average results, but once that 4k tag came on... bam! then he disappeared into school.
On July 09 2011 19:29 clusen wrote: Great games? Tod vs Moon wasn't great, was quite onesided actually and just Moon trolling.
-Moon vs his nemesis, the best Undead ever, FoV, at the WCG qualifier 05 or 06 on Twisted Meadows. Such a sick high level NvU in every aspect, like 40 mins of pure skill and action
-FoV vs Grubby on Gnoll Wood @ ESWC 05 - Fov using a unit combo nobody thought would be viable against the Undeadkiller Grubby in such an amazing fashion, MUST WATCH
-Moon vs Grubby @ Turtle Rock during the WEG ToD won(06 afaik), just mindblowing - the winner jumped onto the table afterwards, because he was so pumped after winning it
-FoV vs GoStop @ Echo Isles, just because the winner wins with exactly 1 supply vs 0 :D
And so many more...
Just posting names of good games is not enough, so here is one example of a great game I really enjoyed:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PwZ7dsuWSrw (has 3 parts and German casting)
for me the best ever played in my brief wc3 experience is the wcg finals between creo and sky. it was amazing. 4k was having trouble with fov leaving and their other guys(fury and someone else) doing nothing. only grubby and tod were doing shit. then creo comes along, noone thinks too much, and he just completely comes and dominates the scene. then he announces his retirement, and i was dissapointed. i was amazed at how fast he came onto the scene and dominated.
then he says he's gonna prepare for wcg 2007 like 2-3months before and he makes it all the way to the finals. now he was like 20-80 underdog because he had a much easier bracket while sky had to kill all the big pros(i think, a little blurry). he loses the first game. he then fucking tower rushes sky on the second game cuz he thought he was gonna lose anyways i think. after that it comes to a third game where creo stopped sky from fast expanding. then it fucking went into 1base vs 1 base riflecaster vs NE, i didn't see a single riflecaster game in like months. it comes down to the wire then creo gets level 6 demonhunter, GG.
god damn, i remember creo's reign of dominance pretty much from the instant he hopped onto 4k. he used to be just another dude who posted average results, but once that 4k tag came on... bam! then he disappeared into school.
Was that Creo in the WCG final? I thought it was some one else but that final was really really sad to see for a Sky fun. He was so close to 3 WCG title in a row..
On July 09 2011 10:46 n.DieJokes wrote: Can someone tell me about who the dominate players are and were and where some of the non grubby war3 players rising to prominence in sc2 came from? How good they were relatively and the korea/world balance
I didn't really follow wc3 scene at all, but I thought that: Naniwa Grubby Thorzain Moon
were all warcraft 3 players
Yeah a lot of top non-korean sc2 players come from. I think the question is more how good they were in war3. I know Grubby and Moon were like super good and I learned recently that Nani was on fnatic and claimed to be the equivalent of what kawaiirice is to fnatic in sc2.
I'd be interested in who Thorzain was in war3.
He was one of the two laughing stocks of EU Team of Stars War Shanghai along with ThomasG, aka RAGECupcake. He lost to TH000's off race and SocceR when he decided to use only a single hero which was then Warden. You and me couldn't get less wins than ThomasG and ThorZain.
On July 09 2011 10:46 n.DieJokes wrote: Can someone tell me about who the dominate players are and were and where some of the non grubby war3 players rising to prominence in sc2 came from? How good they were relatively and the korea/world balance
There were too few good players in EU/NA in WC3 scene. It was basically Korea vs China. China had likes of TeD, TH000, Infi, Fly%100 and Korea had Lyn, FoCuS, ReMinD, Moon, SocceR, viOlet etc.
It was basically like Undead vs Nightelf is unplayable for Nightelf and Undead vs Orc is unplayable for Undead (ReMinD, night elf player, off raced orc against undead players for a good amount of time and even after he started playing NE again, his vU matchup was rather weak).
On July 09 2011 10:46 n.DieJokes wrote: Can someone tell me about who the dominate players are and were and where some of the non grubby war3 players rising to prominence in sc2 came from? How good they were relatively and the korea/world balance
There were too few good players in EU/NA in WC3 scene. It was basically Korea vs China. China had likes of TeD, TH000, Infi, Fly%100 and Korea had Lyn, FoCuS, ReMinD, Moon, SocceR, viOlet etc.
It was basically like Undead vs Nightelf is unplayable for Nightelf and Undead vs Orc is unplayable for Undead (ReMinD, night elf player, off raced orc against undead players for a good amount of time and even after he started playing NE again, his vU matchup was rather weak).
How is Undead vs Nightelf unplayable for Nightelf? It's pretty much common knowledge that the only imbalanced matchup is Undead vs Orc, in Orcs favour.
Also, Europe had lots of great players. Grubby was around forever and was pretty much always top 5 world. Guys like ToD, Madfrog, Creolophus, HeMan, Insomnia, Apm70 have all had periods where they've been considered among the best. And then you had guys like FaTC, HoT, WinneR etc who often beat the best koreans. WinneR for example was never that known, but he beat the best korean undeads in mirror more than he lost to them. Looks to me like you didn't start following WC3 until the last few years.
For a very long period Europe was actually considered the continent that had the best human players. (Before guys like Sky, Infi and th00 had come into prominence).
Also to the guy earlier who said that Human towers were now fortified armor, that's not true. That was only in the beta-patch, not in the final one that's live now.
On July 09 2011 10:02 Bibbit wrote: Okay hi. I know a lot of TL'ers nowadays come from a War 3 background. I, however, am rooted in sc1. Not super deeply rooted, only started watching in late 2008 and was D+ max on a good day, but that's what I come from.
Anyways, more to the point. I played a tiny tiny bit of War 3 about a year ago. Nothing serious, just some games with a real life friend. I find the game kinda cool and for some reason just became interested in it. So I have some questions. ^_^
1) This one I'm afraid to ask: Is it generally considered well-balanced? Or is there a race that a ton of people play or nobody really plays?
2) Is there some sort of community for the game? Of course not expecting anything on the level of the wonderful site that is TL but is there anything?
3) Do people still play this game? I don't necessarily mean a pro-scene as I'm not aspiring to be high level. Just wondering if I were to go on a War 3 server, if anyone would be there. >_>
4) How would I go about learning how the game works? For the time being I'm naturally not concerned about complex strategies or anything. I just genuinely dont know a thing about the game and have no clue what a "typical" game looks like.
Thank you very much for any help I can get. Forgive me if this was just a huge search function fail from me. :D:D:D
1) In general its pretty well balanced. blademaster is the only thing that really fucks everything up
3) yes, you wont have a problem finding people to play on any of the servers. (not true for better players. search times become increasingly long if you don't give out some def wins on east/west. The same problem doesn't really seem to happen on europe because there hackers are generally better than the american hackers)
4) first learn all the units. Then dl some reps for the race you want to play so you can get an idea of general unit compositions. big note: in wc3, micro is generally your #1 focus. The only way to really improve your micro is by just playing a bunch.
for me the best ever played in my brief wc3 experience is the wcg finals between creo and sky. it was amazing. 4k was having trouble with fov leaving and their other guys(fury and someone else) doing nothing. only grubby and tod were doing shit. then creo comes along, noone thinks too much, and he just completely comes and dominates the scene. then he announces his retirement, and i was dissapointed. i was amazed at how fast he came onto the scene and dominated.
then he says he's gonna prepare for wcg 2007 like 2-3months before and he makes it all the way to the finals. now he was like 20-80 underdog because he had a much easier bracket while sky had to kill all the big pros(i think, a little blurry). he loses the first game. he then fucking tower rushes sky on the second game cuz he thought he was gonna lose anyways i think. after that it comes to a third game where creo stopped sky from fast expanding. then it fucking went into 1base vs 1 base riflecaster vs NE, i didn't see a single riflecaster game in like months. it comes down to the wire then creo gets level 6 demonhunter, GG.
heres the game i just watched it it still makes me soooo hype
On July 09 2011 10:46 n.DieJokes wrote: Can someone tell me about who the dominate players are and were and where some of the non grubby war3 players rising to prominence in sc2 came from? How good they were relatively and the korea/world balance
I didn't really follow wc3 scene at all, but I thought that: Naniwa Grubby Thorzain Moon
were all warcraft 3 players
Yeah a lot of top non-korean sc2 players come from. I think the question is more how good they were in war3. I know Grubby and Moon were like super good and I learned recently that Nani was on fnatic and claimed to be the equivalent of what kawaiirice is to fnatic in sc2.
I'd be interested in who Thorzain was in war3.
He was one of the two laughing stocks of EU Team of Stars War Shanghai along with ThomasG, aka RAGECupcake. He lost to TH000's off race and SocceR when he decided to use only a single hero which was then Warden. You and me couldn't get less wins than ThomasG and ThorZain.
On July 09 2011 10:46 n.DieJokes wrote: Can someone tell me about who the dominate players are and were and where some of the non grubby war3 players rising to prominence in sc2 came from? How good they were relatively and the korea/world balance
There were too few good players in EU/NA in WC3 scene. It was basically Korea vs China. China had likes of TeD, TH000, Infi, Fly%100 and Korea had Lyn, FoCuS, ReMinD, Moon, SocceR, viOlet etc.
It was basically like Undead vs Nightelf is unplayable for Nightelf and Undead vs Orc is unplayable for Undead (ReMinD, night elf player, off raced orc against undead players for a good amount of time and even after he started playing NE again, his vU matchup was rather weak).
Thorzain might have had one bad tournament but he was almost on Grubby's level when they both quit. Can't remember exactly but iirc he lost 1-2, 1-2 to grubby at european blizzcon. Thorzain was 2/3rd best player in Europe along with Lucifron for the last 6 months of the game.
Interesting read in here since I've never played WC3 but only heard how those guys have sick micro (yet I've never noticed it being great with top ex pro WC players, just my op though). Why didn't Blizz just buff undead if they had such a hard time vs Orc? Maybe that's a dumb question but I honestly don't know the answer. Also can someone explain the whole apm thing that comes with WC players turned SC2? Like I said I never noticed them having any better micro than other pro's maybe I'm just not seeing something properly.
On July 09 2011 10:46 n.DieJokes wrote: Can someone tell me about who the dominate players are and were and where some of the non grubby war3 players rising to prominence in sc2 came from? How good they were relatively and the korea/world balance
I didn't really follow wc3 scene at all, but I thought that: Naniwa Grubby Thorzain Moon
were all warcraft 3 players
Yeah a lot of top non-korean sc2 players come from. I think the question is more how good they were in war3. I know Grubby and Moon were like super good and I learned recently that Nani was on fnatic and claimed to be the equivalent of what kawaiirice is to fnatic in sc2.
I'd be interested in who Thorzain was in war3.
He was one of the two laughing stocks of EU Team of Stars War Shanghai along with ThomasG, aka RAGECupcake. He lost to TH000's off race and SocceR when he decided to use only a single hero which was then Warden. You and me couldn't get less wins than ThomasG and ThorZain.
On July 09 2011 10:46 n.DieJokes wrote: Can someone tell me about who the dominate players are and were and where some of the non grubby war3 players rising to prominence in sc2 came from? How good they were relatively and the korea/world balance
There were too few good players in EU/NA in WC3 scene. It was basically Korea vs China. China had likes of TeD, TH000, Infi, Fly%100 and Korea had Lyn, FoCuS, ReMinD, Moon, SocceR, viOlet etc.
It was basically like Undead vs Nightelf is unplayable for Nightelf and Undead vs Orc is unplayable for Undead (ReMinD, night elf player, off raced orc against undead players for a good amount of time and even after he started playing NE again, his vU matchup was rather weak).
Thorzain might have had one bad tournament but he was almost on Grubby's level when they both quit. Can't remember exactly but iirc he lost 1-2, 1-2 to grubby at european blizzcon. Thorzain was 2/3rd best player in Europe along with Lucifron for the last 6 months of the game.
I was lucky enough to catch the last chunks of WC3 scene and Thorzain was on the same level as grubby? Lol. He was never 2/3rd best player in europe. In EU, Happy was the best player along with Grubby and he was the only player in Grubby's level. ThomasG, ThorZain, Lucifron, Vortix, XLorD, whatever was never on that level. At least during the last 6 months of the game.
And yeah, WC3 scene was like this: In the beginning, EU/NA people were able to compete with koreans, chinese people step into the game, koreans and chinese slowly take over, in the end, scene gets dominated by koreans and chinese. It's basically like A class koreans can beat the shit out of best european/north american players during the last 6 months.
And, UD has a pretty high win rate against NE. It was like Space and TeD have a combined number of 3 losses to NE players (I'm just exaggarating, but those guys, and Happy too, rarely lost to NE. Like for each loss, they get 5-6 wins or something like that).
@OP if you for some reason decide to play undead, watch TeD's games. He is like July of the WC3 scene.
Use to love this game, the best team at one point was 4k for a very long time, rememeber when they won the wc3l clan league with only 3 players as someone didnt turn up or coudlnt make it??? Had to forfeit liek 2 games a match I think as one game they played their manager. Got to Love ToD and Grubby then... Could be wrong with ToD as not sure if he was actually with them at that time.
On July 11 2011 15:21 RaLakedaimon wrote: Why didn't Blizz just buff undead if they had such a hard time vs Orc? .
It's hard to perfectly balance a game with 4 races for elite levels of play
Well, buffing undead would lead to many difficulties for 3 other races. Good undead players already have a good win rate against Night Elf in both ladder and elite scene and Human race sucks anyway (or players suck, I don't remember too many human players winning tournaments and shit, they generally lose to night elf/orc anyway), buffing undead would lead to an uncontestable reign of undead players.
On July 11 2011 15:21 RaLakedaimon wrote: Why didn't Blizz just buff undead if they had such a hard time vs Orc? .
It's hard to perfectly balance a game with 4 races for elite levels of play
Well, buffing undead would lead to many difficulties for 3 other races. Good undead players already have a good win rate against Night Elf in both ladder and elite scene and Human race sucks anyway (or players suck, I don't remember too many human players winning tournaments and shit, they generally lose to night elf/orc anyway), buffing undead would lead to an uncontestable reign of undead players.
the problem was/is that human is forced to play this tankshit against NE and UD, so the only interesting MU is HUvsOR. HU vs HU is a bit boring because most of the time it is just breaker vs breaker and that is not reaaaalyyy entertaining from the observers pov.
On July 11 2011 15:21 RaLakedaimon wrote: Interesting read in here since I've never played WC3 but only heard how those guys have sick micro (yet I've never noticed it being great with top ex pro WC players, just my op though). Why didn't Blizz just buff undead if they had such a hard time vs Orc? Maybe that's a dumb question but I honestly don't know the answer. Also can someone explain the whole apm thing that comes with WC players turned SC2? Like I said I never noticed them having any better micro than other pro's maybe I'm just not seeing something properly.
Orc > UD UD > Human and Night Elf
There are a lot of top-tier Orc players out there, unfortunately, in tournaments, which made the race unviable for tournament play unless you were godly with the race. That said, you can see quite a bit of UD in 2v2. (Usually UD + NE if I'm not mistaken.)
As for the micro, here are a few things to keep in mind: - The units take forever to die. They have so much health compared to SC2 units it's not even funny. - WC3 doesn't clump units. - WC3 was, overall, slower. - You hardly need to worry about your economy in WC3.
All of this makes it much easier to showcase very good micro in WC3. Battles last approximately forever, and they aren't the sort of blob-on-blob warfare that you see in SC2; it's much more refined because it's slower. If you have the superior micro and items (and both you and your opponent have decent positions), you'll come out ahead even if you have the same amount of food and/or the same units. If you're not losing units during the battle, you also sort of don't have to go to your production facilities, since you ideally want to stay at the upkeep limits, and you most definitely don't have to go back to your base every 25 seconds to hit a larva inject. Basically, less multitasking is required for WC3, so you can devote more energy to your micro.
Having said that, most ex-WC3 players (or WC3 players, since many still play the game, like Lyn, Moon, and SocceR) do have pretty great SC2 micro, with the exception of Moon, who somehow manages to have poor unit control but excellent macro. (Amusingly enough, in WC3 he was known as the guy who goes expo happy, so it's fitting that he plays Zerg in a way, even though he'd probably micro better as Protoss or Terran.) And if you want an example of an ex-WC3 player with incredible micro, here's one. Happy was an UD player in WC3.
warning: reading it can take 30 hours and it can be pretty addictive to refer to.
I was just clownin, hence the clown face. :D
And yeah I looked a bit at that. There's an absolute ton of stuff on there. >_> Anything specific you feel would be extra helpful?
But that clown... he's so... EVIL!
Anyways, I'm gonna try to make this short for you. I'd rather you looked at all the unit stats and armor types to learn unit counters, but understanding that information takes a lot of time. So instead you should just read these four articles.
Upkeep is another big thing. If you have between 51 and 80 food, and two bases you will gather gold 40% faster than someone on one base with 50 or less food. When you understand that sentence, you'll know enough about upkeep. If you win a major battle and don't punish your opponent or expand and stay in a higher upkeep, they'll gain their army back. http://classic.battle.net/war3/basics/upkeep.shtml
Creepjacking can turn a 1v1 into a 1.5 v 1 situation. If you have a good method of scouting, (I'm a noob who uses priestess of the moon owl scouts) you'll gain an advantage every game you play just by creep jacking. http://classic.battle.net/war3/basics/creepjacking.shtml
Once you gain an advantage you have to keep it, and since at the lower levels people can't micro their hero's enough, the player with the larger army or the better counter to the opponents army will keep the advantage. Knowing the counter wheel will win you lots more games.
Feetmen, ghouls, and grunts are light melee units. They're bad against magic attacks from high tier flying units. They're good against ranged units.
The huntress is a short ranged unit that's rather unique. It'll generally beat ranged units and catapults even though it takes extra damage from them. Huntresses do extra damage to ranged units. It's also good against light melee units because of its stats and its bounce attack.
Riflemen, troll headhunters, archers, water elementals, and crypt fiends are ranged units. They're good against flying units (crypt fiends need to research web though), and a mixed army of ranged units and light melee is better than a melee army
Knights, Tauren, Druids of the Claw (bears), and abominations are heavy melee units. They beat huntresses, ranged units, and light melee units.
Priests, Sorceresses, Shamans, Witch Doctors, Sprit Walkers, Druids of the talon, Necromancers, Obsidian Statues, (kodo beasts), and Banshees are spellcaster units. They don't do very much damage and are supposed to be used in moderation, but when they are used they can be used to great effect. Healing your army to full and crippling powerful enemy units is really big.
Spell Breakers, Faerie Dragons, Destroyers, and Dryads are anti-spellcasters. Dryads are good against air units and spell breakers are a sort of like a mix between a footman and a knight in terms of strength... except ranged... and good against spellcasters.
Gryphon riders, Chimaera, and Frost Wyrms are high tier flying units and they kill all melee units with their magic damage.
Demolishers, glaive throwers, mortar teams, meat wagons, siege engines, and raiders are siege units. They're good at killing towers and spellcasters.
Lastly we have air antiair units: Gryphon riders, bat riders, wyverns, hippogryphs, and flying machines.
I know this is a lot, just try to learn it little by little, game by game, and have fun.
Hokay, as usual I'm super appreciative of all the help! :D:D:D
Anyways I just played my first game vs a person, obviously knowing before the game started that I was gonna lose. So I have my first "strategic" question! It was Human (me) vs Orc and it suddenly occured to me that I dont know how to deal with invisible shit (Blademaster). Kinda silly for me not to see that coming but it was pretty funny anyway when I kept losing shit and then BM disappears.
To put it succinctly: What do you do for detection?
Edit: Watched some replays. It looks like I want a fast Arcane Tower? And also people seem to sim city the shit out of their base. I guess I want to do that so things stop killing my miner guys as hard?
On July 13 2011 02:54 MyLastSerenade wrote: it would be helpful, if u post replays. then we can see what mistakes you made.
Yes I will certainly do that going forward. ^^
But I've only played that one game so far and I feel confident saying my biggest mistake was "not realizing the other guys hero turns invisible and that I don't know how to detect it." :D:D:D
You've got the right idea. Sim city, Arcane Tower to drain mana, Dust of Appearance from a merchant shop, and if you're still feeling a little uncomfortable with it, get a Mountain King with Storm Bolt. In my experience, most of the lower level ladder players panic when their BM gets stunned, lol.
On July 12 2011 23:58 Bibbit wrote: Hokay, as usual I'm super appreciative of all the help! :D:D:D
Anyways I just played my first game vs a person, obviously knowing before the game started that I was gonna lose. So I have my first "strategic" question! It was Human (me) vs Orc and it suddenly occured to me that I dont know how to deal with invisible shit (Blademaster). Kinda silly for me not to see that coming but it was pretty funny anyway when I kept losing shit and then BM disappears.
To put it succinctly: What do you do for detection?
Edit: Watched some replays. It looks like I want a fast Arcane Tower? And also people seem to sim city the shit out of their base. I guess I want to do that so things stop killing my miner guys as hard?
Ok, its a bit tricky and kind of map dependent, but the general rule of thumb in Human vs Orc from the Human's perspective is to Shelter off the base in order to keep nasty things like Blademasters and Grunts out of it. This can be somewhat easily done, by simply having the right building placement, as shown in this screenshot: + Show Spoiler +
But to be extra sure you get put up a tower in there as well (arcanite tower, drains mana from target so he wont have mana for wind walk).
And for the army, there's a little neat item that can be bought in the Goblin Merchant called Dust of Appearance which makes invisable units appear for you in an area around the hero. But, its oftenly not cost worthy to buy one since your army is generally to slow to catch up with the BM, unless you go for Mountain King as starter hero. (Boy I could go on like this for hours it feels, there's so quite a lot of strategies to talk about, and maps, and match ups...)
This is just covering the very basics, but I guess that'll do for now. Also, as you saw with my links, Blizzard still have the old Bnet site up for War3 information. If you feel like you have time, go ahead and read through it. Sure, a lot of things are a bit outdated, but its still the same principal towards the game. http://classic.battle.net/war3/
I'll be happy to answer more questions as they come along, also. I just digged this up, just for you
On July 12 2011 23:58 Bibbit wrote: Hokay, as usual I'm super appreciative of all the help! :D:D:D
Anyways I just played my first game vs a person, obviously knowing before the game started that I was gonna lose. So I have my first "strategic" question! It was Human (me) vs Orc and it suddenly occured to me that I dont know how to deal with invisible shit (Blademaster). Kinda silly for me not to see that coming but it was pretty funny anyway when I kept losing shit and then BM disappears.
To put it succinctly: What do you do for detection?
Edit: Watched some replays. It looks like I want a fast Arcane Tower? And also people seem to sim city the shit out of their base. I guess I want to do that so things stop killing my miner guys as hard?
Ok, its a bit tricky and kind of map dependent, but the general rule of thumb in Human vs Orc from the Human's perspective is to Shelter off the base in order to keep nasty things like Blademasters and Grunts out of it. This can be somewhat easily done, by simply having the right building placement, as shown in this screenshot: + Show Spoiler +
But to be extra sure you get put up a tower in there as well (arcanite tower, drains mana from target so he wont have mana for wind walk).
And for the army, there's a little neat item that can be bought in the Goblin Merchant called Dust of Appearance which makes invisable units appear for you in an area around the hero. But, its oftenly not cost worthy to buy one since your army is generally to slow to catch up with the BM, unless you go for Mountain King as starter hero. (Boy I could go on like this for hours it feels, there's so quite a lot of strategies to talk about, and maps, and match ups...)
This is just covering the very basics, but I guess that'll do for now. Also, as you saw with my links, Blizzard still have the old Bnet site up for War3 information. If you feel like you have time, go ahead and read through it. Sure, a lot of things are a bit outdated, but its still the same principal towards the game. http://classic.battle.net/war3/
I'll be happy to answer more questions as they come along, also. I just digged this up, just for you
Edit: ANother question. TT That button near the minimap that makes your guys stick to some formation ... Do I want that on? It feels really annoying when things stop and wait etc.. If its better to have on I guess I could get used to it but meh. :/
Edit 2: Just gonna keep piling questions in here and giving huge <3's to everyone who helps. ^^ So #2 - I understand that you typically dont want to make a lot of workers in this game. But Humans seem to use their workers for a lot of shit. Do I want to be making them almost constantly?
always have your formation off, pretty much no exceptions, it makes all your units move at the same speed as your slowest unit
you don't really want to be making peasants constantly, if you are teching normally you don't really need to make more than usual, (6-8 i think, i dont play human much), but if you are doing a fast expansion build then you need to make quite a few peasants.
On July 13 2011 03:50 LittLeD wrote: And for the army, there's a little neat item that can be bought in the Goblin Merchant called Dust of Appearance which makes invisable units appear for you in an area around the hero. But, its oftenly not cost worthy to buy one since your army is generally to slow to catch up with the BM, unless you go for Mountain King as starter hero. (Boy I could go on like this for hours it feels, there's so quite a lot of strategies to talk about, and maps, and match ups...)
Why starter hero? It's still fine even when you have him as your second hero. When you creep some bigger spots, it's always worth it to make sure that you get the most important mob. Also, Reveal from the Goblin Laboratory(if it's on the map) helps as well.
On July 12 2011 23:58 Bibbit wrote: Hokay, as usual I'm super appreciative of all the help! :D:D:D
Anyways I just played my first game vs a person, obviously knowing before the game started that I was gonna lose. So I have my first "strategic" question! It was Human (me) vs Orc and it suddenly occured to me that I dont know how to deal with invisible shit (Blademaster). Kinda silly for me not to see that coming but it was pretty funny anyway when I kept losing shit and then BM disappears.
To put it succinctly: What do you do for detection?
Edit: Watched some replays. It looks like I want a fast Arcane Tower? And also people seem to sim city the shit out of their base. I guess I want to do that so things stop killing my miner guys as hard?
Ok, its a bit tricky and kind of map dependent, but the general rule of thumb in Human vs Orc from the Human's perspective is to Shelter off the base in order to keep nasty things like Blademasters and Grunts out of it. This can be somewhat easily done, by simply having the right building placement, as shown in this screenshot: + Show Spoiler +
But to be extra sure you get put up a tower in there as well (arcanite tower, drains mana from target so he wont have mana for wind walk).
And for the army, there's a little neat item that can be bought in the Goblin Merchant called Dust of Appearance which makes invisable units appear for you in an area around the hero. But, its oftenly not cost worthy to buy one since your army is generally to slow to catch up with the BM, unless you go for Mountain King as starter hero. (Boy I could go on like this for hours it feels, there's so quite a lot of strategies to talk about, and maps, and match ups...)
This is just covering the very basics, but I guess that'll do for now. Also, as you saw with my links, Blizzard still have the old Bnet site up for War3 information. If you feel like you have time, go ahead and read through it. Sure, a lot of things are a bit outdated, but its still the same principal towards the game. http://classic.battle.net/war3/
I'll be happy to answer more questions as they come along, also. I just digged this up, just for you
Edit: ANother question. TT That button near the minimap that makes your guys stick to some formation ... Do I want that on? It feels really annoying when things stop and wait etc.. If its better to have on I guess I could get used to it but meh. :/
Edit 2: Just gonna keep piling questions in here and giving huge <3's to everyone who helps. ^^ So #2 - I understand that you typically dont want to make a lot of workers in this game. But Humans seem to use their workers for a lot of shit. Do I want to be making them almost constantly?
I have no idea why that button was created to begin with. Completely useless. As for the worker saturation. The standard for human (so that's the race you're gonna focus on?) is 5 on the mine (duh) and 6-12 (at main base) on wood dependent on map, strategy and match up.
I'll run down some basics:
Vs Orc: [Example map: Echo Isles] The two most popular strategies here are a) Archmage + 3-4 footies + fast tier2 tech+ fast level 2 creep (3 if skilled) + harrasment. And b) Archmage OR Mountain King fast exapnd with 10+ footies, a lot of workers, and late tech. Heavily tower-defended and later teched into tier3 for gryphons.
Now, I havn't played in a while but a) can be done in two ways. You either go for a REALLY fast lumber mill (6altar, 7mill, 8farm, 9rax) to nail down a super fast t2 with only 6 workers (I think) or go for the standard 6altar, 7rax, 8farm, 9farm and pump out around 3-4 footies and 8 workers on wood (so your supply is around 24-26) then tech.
And b) is of course hugely different and can never be said precisely how it will go down because you most likely will be harassed, but you're gonna need a lot more workers, you'll problably build 16+ before entering your tech as you're gonna need like 1 arcanite and 2-3 guard towers (more if the orc is siege pushing you) at both your bases.
Tell me if you need any advice for other match ups, lol. I don't wanna write things too much ahead of time before you can nail down the basics, hehe.
On July 13 2011 03:50 LittLeD wrote: And for the army, there's a little neat item that can be bought in the Goblin Merchant called Dust of Appearance which makes invisable units appear for you in an area around the hero. But, its oftenly not cost worthy to buy one since your army is generally to slow to catch up with the BM, unless you go for Mountain King as starter hero. (Boy I could go on like this for hours it feels, there's so quite a lot of strategies to talk about, and maps, and match ups...)
Why starter hero? It's still fine even when you have him as your second hero. When you creep some bigger spots, it's always worth it to make sure that you get the most important mob. Also, Reveal from the Goblin Laboratory(if it's on the map) helps as well.
Thought we were talking early game here. Of course, later in the game when MK is with you, one should always be carried in order to prevent creep kills. As I said above, I didn't want to rush ahead of time.
Ok that second thing with the mass workers into FE with towers is what I saw in the replay. Thats what made me think I maybe needed an obscene amount of workers. I guess thats just one possible strategy.
And yeah not getting advanced on me is good! I already got a few pieces of advice that my only response going through my head was "...."
Edit: Dont want to double post but I got my first win!!!!
To answer soem of the questions you asked, in case they weren't answered:
1. Detection: buy Dust of Appearance at a Goblin shop. There are some alternatives as Human: Flying Machine and Sentry Upgrade on towers. Neither is commonly used. 2. Do *NOT* use formation. It makes your group to match the speed of slowest unit. Very, very bad. 3. As Human, you only need 5 workers per mine, and 5-7 on Lumber. Do not build extra workers unless you have expansions. 4. As a rule of thumb, as soon as you can upgrade to T2, do it. Do not make workers after you achieved T2, unless you lost too many to your opponent.
One general consensus as well is that in late game, Orc, or mainly the Blademaster becomes too buff if the orc is lucky enough to find some sweet powerup items. Blademaster and the Panda are the two only heroes that have a passive ability which is procentually increased in efficiency with the more + attack damage items the hero carries. Example: If the Blademaster is level 5, he has critical strike on level 3. If he now then as well carries items so his attack bonus is something around +30 (Kodo aura included), then his critical strikes can end up doing around 350-400 damage. Which I consider too much. Without the powerup items, he'll do around 250-280.
Incorrect. Critical strike is effectively a damage multiplicator. The relative damage bonus gained from items remains the same, whether critical strike skill is present or not, all other things being equal.
On July 09 2011 10:46 n.DieJokes wrote: Can someone tell me about who the dominate players are and were and where some of the non grubby war3 players rising to prominence in sc2 came from? How good they were relatively and the korea/world balance
I didn't really follow wc3 scene at all, but I thought that: Naniwa Grubby Thorzain Moon
were all warcraft 3 players
Yeah a lot of top non-korean sc2 players come from. I think the question is more how good they were in war3. I know Grubby and Moon were like super good and I learned recently that Nani was on fnatic and claimed to be the equivalent of what kawaiirice is to fnatic in sc2.
I'd be interested in who Thorzain was in war3.
He was one of the two laughing stocks of EU Team of Stars War Shanghai along with ThomasG, aka RAGECupcake. He lost to TH000's off race and SocceR when he decided to use only a single hero which was then Warden. You and me couldn't get less wins than ThomasG and ThorZain.
On July 09 2011 10:46 n.DieJokes wrote: Can someone tell me about who the dominate players are and were and where some of the non grubby war3 players rising to prominence in sc2 came from? How good they were relatively and the korea/world balance
There were too few good players in EU/NA in WC3 scene. It was basically Korea vs China. China had likes of TeD, TH000, Infi, Fly%100 and Korea had Lyn, FoCuS, ReMinD, Moon, SocceR, viOlet etc.
It was basically like Undead vs Nightelf is unplayable for Nightelf and Undead vs Orc is unplayable for Undead (ReMinD, night elf player, off raced orc against undead players for a good amount of time and even after he started playing NE again, his vU matchup was rather weak).
Thorzain might have had one bad tournament but he was almost on Grubby's level when they both quit. Can't remember exactly but iirc he lost 1-2, 1-2 to grubby at european blizzcon. Thorzain was 2/3rd best player in Europe along with Lucifron for the last 6 months of the game.
I was lucky enough to catch the last chunks of WC3 scene and Thorzain was on the same level as grubby? Lol. He was never 2/3rd best player in europe. In EU, Happy was the best player along with Grubby and he was the only player in Grubby's level. ThomasG, ThorZain, Lucifron, Vortix, XLorD, whatever was never on that level. At least during the last 6 months of the game.
And yeah, WC3 scene was like this: In the beginning, EU/NA people were able to compete with koreans, chinese people step into the game, koreans and chinese slowly take over, in the end, scene gets dominated by koreans and chinese. It's basically like A class koreans can beat the shit out of best european/north american players during the last 6 months.
And, UD has a pretty high win rate against NE. It was like Space and TeD have a combined number of 3 losses to NE players (I'm just exaggarating, but those guys, and Happy too, rarely lost to NE. Like for each loss, they get 5-6 wins or something like that).
@OP if you for some reason decide to play undead, watch TeD's games. He is like July of the WC3 scene.
You are making it seem like Thorzain wasn't near grubby's level.
I forgot about happy though, you are right, happy and both grubby were clearly above his level but out of 10 games I would expect Thorzain to take 3-4 off both grubby and happy. He was certainly no slouch.
So do I even bother trying to kill Blademaster? I followed people's advice and got that dust stuff or whatever it is. Now I get to see him but he's still too fast. >_> I guess that Mountain King is good cuz of the stun thing he has?
I haven't really looked at a lot of Human vs Orc replays yet, gonna start on that now I guess.
definitely, but if he is after/hitting your Archmage you want to always be running away, make sure to run in straight lines as much as possible as any turns slow you down slightly. Pretty much all BMs get boots of speed so you will need to buy them as well to keep your speed up. Once Bm gets lev 3 there isn't much you can do to outrun him tho.
On July 13 2011 15:26 acie wrote: definitely, but if he is after/hitting your Archmage you want to always be running away, make sure to run in straight lines as much as possible as any turns slow you down slightly. Pretty much all BMs get boots of speed so you will need to buy them as well to keep your speed up. Once Bm gets lev 3 there isn't much you can do to outrun him tho.
Ok thanks for the tip about the boots of speed. It looks like I still want to open with the archmage and then get mountain king at t2?
vs orc its pretty much either AM/Mountain king or do AM/Beastmaster timing where you kill burrows with mass summons. Doing a MK 1st fast expo can be pretty strong/ kind of an easier way to play, I had a friend who played undead and started playing human and only did MK 1st strategies for every matchup/map and got pretty high level.
One general consensus as well is that in late game, Orc, or mainly the Blademaster becomes too buff if the orc is lucky enough to find some sweet powerup items. Blademaster and the Panda are the two only heroes that have a passive ability which is procentually increased in efficiency with the more + attack damage items the hero carries. Example: If the Blademaster is level 5, he has critical strike on level 3. If he now then as well carries items so his attack bonus is something around +30 (Kodo aura included), then his critical strikes can end up doing around 350-400 damage. Which I consider too much. Without the powerup items, he'll do around 250-280.
Incorrect. Critical strike is effectively a damage multiplicator. The relative damage bonus gained from items remains the same, whether critical strike skill is present or not, all other things being equal.
Ok, I expressed myself incorrect, but My core meaning remains. There are only 2 passive abilites in the game that can somewhat end up being better (Make the hero do more damage) by letting the hero pick up + attack items such as claws or orbs. My suggestion to fix this has always been to make the heroes +dmg from items and auras not stack with crit, as with My above example. In My case BM would do his ground damage *4 + 30 vs what he does now, (Ground damage + 30) * 4. The difference is 90 damage late game which is huge. But the difference early on will be almost irrelevant,
On July 09 2011 10:46 n.DieJokes wrote: Can someone tell me about who the dominate players are and were and where some of the non grubby war3 players rising to prominence in sc2 came from? How good they were relatively and the korea/world balance
I didn't really follow wc3 scene at all, but I thought that: Naniwa Grubby Thorzain Moon
I just flew over the last posts, but i think no one mentioned that u need Boots from the Goblin Shop, u can buy them when the first night is over imo. They are expensive but it is worth it. When u got into the mid game, u also want to buy the invulnerability pots and the healing/protection scrolls!
On July 09 2011 10:46 n.DieJokes wrote: Can someone tell me about who the dominate players are and were and where some of the non grubby war3 players rising to prominence in sc2 came from? How good they were relatively and the korea/world balance
I didn't really follow wc3 scene at all, but I thought that: Naniwa Grubby Thorzain Moon
were all warcraft 3 players
Yeah a lot of top non-korean sc2 players come from. I think the question is more how good they were in war3. I know Grubby and Moon were like super good and I learned recently that Nani was on fnatic and claimed to be the equivalent of what kawaiirice is to fnatic in sc2.
I'd be interested in who Thorzain was in war3.
He was one of the two laughing stocks of EU Team of Stars War Shanghai along with ThomasG, aka RAGECupcake. He lost to TH000's off race and SocceR when he decided to use only a single hero which was then Warden. You and me couldn't get less wins than ThomasG and ThorZain.
On July 09 2011 10:46 n.DieJokes wrote: Can someone tell me about who the dominate players are and were and where some of the non grubby war3 players rising to prominence in sc2 came from? How good they were relatively and the korea/world balance
There were too few good players in EU/NA in WC3 scene. It was basically Korea vs China. China had likes of TeD, TH000, Infi, Fly%100 and Korea had Lyn, FoCuS, ReMinD, Moon, SocceR, viOlet etc.
It was basically like Undead vs Nightelf is unplayable for Nightelf and Undead vs Orc is unplayable for Undead (ReMinD, night elf player, off raced orc against undead players for a good amount of time and even after he started playing NE again, his vU matchup was rather weak).
Thorzain might have had one bad tournament but he was almost on Grubby's level when they both quit. Can't remember exactly but iirc he lost 1-2, 1-2 to grubby at european blizzcon. Thorzain was 2/3rd best player in Europe along with Lucifron for the last 6 months of the game.
I was lucky enough to catch the last chunks of WC3 scene and Thorzain was on the same level as grubby? Lol. He was never 2/3rd best player in europe. In EU, Happy was the best player along with Grubby and he was the only player in Grubby's level. ThomasG, ThorZain, Lucifron, Vortix, XLorD, whatever was never on that level. At least during the last 6 months of the game.
And yeah, WC3 scene was like this: In the beginning, EU/NA people were able to compete with koreans, chinese people step into the game, koreans and chinese slowly take over, in the end, scene gets dominated by koreans and chinese. It's basically like A class koreans can beat the shit out of best european/north american players during the last 6 months.
And, UD has a pretty high win rate against NE. It was like Space and TeD have a combined number of 3 losses to NE players (I'm just exaggarating, but those guys, and Happy too, rarely lost to NE. Like for each loss, they get 5-6 wins or something like that).
@OP if you for some reason decide to play undead, watch TeD's games. He is like July of the WC3 scene.
You are making it seem like Thorzain wasn't near grubby's level.
I forgot about happy though, you are right, happy and both grubby were clearly above his level but out of 10 games I would expect Thorzain to take 3-4 off both grubby and happy. He was certainly no slouch.
Thorzain got to qfinals of eswc2010 and got ezpz'd by remind there. But his games vs Lyn in those groups were good (I think they were 1-1 in that group) but he lost to him later on and Lyn went on and won everything. Yeah, he wasn't that much of a slouch, in fact he was in top 5 of europe. But he was clearly behind Grubby and Happy and besides those two, there were nobody else from EU that could compete with top koreans/chinese. ThomasG and ThorZain were just not on par. Neither were Kas/Lucifron/Ciara/VortiX/XlorD. ThorZain's vOrc was good, vNelf was bad. He could compete with likes of Focus and Lyn, but he'd get ezpz'd by TH000's or 2nd tier korean's Nelf.
On July 13 2011 15:04 Bibbit wrote: So do I even bother trying to kill Blademaster? I followed people's advice and got that dust stuff or whatever it is. Now I get to see him but he's still too fast. >_> I guess that Mountain King is good cuz of the stun thing he has?
I haven't really looked at a lot of Human vs Orc replays yet, gonna start on that now I guess.
I saw someone effectively using sorceress spells on BM. You may try that too. But I don't take responsibility if your strat fails because the same guy pulled 3 wisps at the start to ancient rush an orc on Gnoll Wood (a 6 player map, he actually pulled that one off).
why u gotta be so obsessed with saying all these europeans aren't as good? Saying that nobody else from EU could compete with top koreans/chinese is just wrong. ThomasG beat Remind in last year's WCG group stages, and then Remind won like a 40 min tie breaker game, and then Remind went on to win the whole tournament. You're just trashing random euro players
You let that BM get to level 4-5 I say GG hahaha, when he starts to one shot your priests and sorcs and footies.... I just want to shoot myself in the head... If you're playing against noobs, whats fun to do with human is to mass towers inside your base, get either AM for extra unit (water elemental) or MK to snipe the T1 units that get too close with hammer bolt. Rush to T3 while banking 3-4k gold, build 3-4 gryphon aviaries, pump them gryphons and look at your opponents army get crushed... it only works in low level plays though but always funny to control 12 gryphons and yell muahahahaha while focus firing stuff If you like to play UD, dont bother getting another hero at the beginning other than DK. T2 -> Lich, then you just nuke the hell out of stuff with death coil + ice nova, T3, theres this tavern hero you can get who can also nuke, but i cant remember which one right now.
There are also a shitload of names i recognize, but they havent made much of splash in sc2 so i left them out
Also if you want to one of the greatest things ever done in wc3, watch TillerMans early (Reign of Chaos) commentary. Its hilarious. Tillermans Human vs. Undead imbalance
That youtube user also has some other commentaries by him which are also hilarious. Search for T man or tillerman in his uploads. Another great commentary on that account is T-Man and Sin's 2v2 adventures. Its basically Tillerman whining about how hopeless his ally, CrazyAssassin (a decent player in his time) is. The scottish accent just gives me the biggest grin ever.
Edit: If wc3 dies in China, it will be be really really interesting to see how well many of them do in sc2. China has always been a good RTS nation but they havent made in sc2 so far.
I've been involved in wc3 a long time. and below is a list that "feels" right to me as I rank the players all-time. I've made it post 2004 as this can be considered a divider of eras. Level of play steadily improved and many patches were released but there was no dramatic change beyond 2004 imo.
1. Moon E Korea 2. Grubby O Netherlands 3. Sky H China 4. Remind E Korea 5. ToD H France 6. Lyn O Korea 7. Infi H China 8. Zacard O Korea 9. Check E/O Korea 10. Fly O China 11. FoV U Korea 12. TeD U China 13. Th000 H/E China 14. Sweet U Korea 15. Creo E Norway 16. Deadman E Russia 17. Focus O Korea 18. Happy U Russia 19. Soccer E Korea 20. Lucifer U Korea 21. Nicker E Russia 22. Soju E Korea 23. SaSe E Sweden 24. Insomnia H Bulgaria 25. Who O Korea
...
guaranteed I missed someone and not everyone will agree but wtvr. oh I did miss GoStop...hed probably be below 20 though.
That's a very good list, and your top 5 is probably the same as mine. Some disagreements however:
A guy like Nicker was only notable when most european pros had quit. SaSe was on the same level as guys like Satiini and HoT, not top 25 world of all time imo. I'd rank players like Freedom, Madfrog and HeMan above them.
Check was consistent and good, but rating him over powerhouses like FoV, Sweet and Th000? No way! Check was always a "top 5 korean Elf", but was not amazing in the way his fellow countrymen and elfs Moon, Freedom, Remind and Soju were.
Some very good players that probably could be on the list:
Madfrog (Best Euro UD of all time, on the same level as the top korean Undeads when he played) Freedom (Should never have quit the game in favor of BW. Sick talent, anyone remember his famous series vs Moon?) ReiGn (Just under the level of FoV/Sweet/Lucifer, but mainly did good in national tournies) HeMan (Legendary human player, was still very good in 2004-2005ish iirc. Always did extremely well in the important tournaments, not so much online) FaTC (Mr. 2-0 in WC3L and strong results vs Koreans. Best frenchie before ToD went to Korea) Xiaot
And some other very good players: Romeo, GoStop, Shy, Swain (Showbu), Susiria, Kenshin_Werra, MagicYang, Farseer, Shortround, Suho
Id like to repeat that my list is post-2004. So guys like Freedom, Heman, Madfrog, Fatc swain wouldn't really make it imo. I agree, Check should be a bit lower but before he experimented with orc he was really really good. I do think I put Focus a bit too high as well. xiaot and farseer should also be on it. I dont think Reign, Shortround, or anyone else really makes it for me. Sase and Hot are about even but sase was at that level longer. Satiini was a level below both.
anyways wtvr lawl. everyone mentioned in last few posts has made a big splash on the world scene.
EPT
I know a lot of TL'ers nowadays come from a War 3 background. I, however, am rooted in sc1. Not super deeply rooted, only started watching in late 2008 and was D+ max on a good day, but that's what I come from.
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