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On July 13 2011 10:12 xarthaz wrote:Show nested quote +One general consensus as well is that in late game, Orc, or mainly the Blademaster becomes too buff if the orc is lucky enough to find some sweet powerup items. Blademaster and the Panda are the two only heroes that have a passive ability which is procentually increased in efficiency with the more + attack damage items the hero carries. Example: If the Blademaster is level 5, he has critical strike on level 3. If he now then as well carries items so his attack bonus is something around +30 (Kodo aura included), then his critical strikes can end up doing around 350-400 damage. Which I consider too much. Without the powerup items, he'll do around 250-280. Incorrect. Critical strike is effectively a damage multiplicator. The relative damage bonus gained from items remains the same, whether critical strike skill is present or not, all other things being equal.
Ok, I expressed myself incorrect, but My core meaning remains. There are only 2 passive abilites in the game that can somewhat end up being better (Make the hero do more damage) by letting the hero pick up + attack items such as claws or orbs. My suggestion to fix this has always been to make the heroes +dmg from items and auras not stack with crit, as with My above example. In My case BM would do his ground damage *4 + 30 vs what he does now, (Ground damage + 30) * 4. The difference is 90 damage late game which is huge. But the difference early on will be almost irrelevant,
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On July 09 2011 10:55 Fulgrim wrote:Show nested quote +On July 09 2011 10:46 n.DieJokes wrote:
Can someone tell me about who the dominate players are and were and where some of the non grubby war3 players rising to prominence in sc2 came from? How good they were relatively and the korea/world balance I didn't really follow wc3 scene at all, but I thought that: Naniwa Grubby Thorzain Moon were all warcraft 3 players
Don't forget MaDFroG. He was great in his prime.
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What about Sweet? No one's mentioned him so far. He was an amazing UD player in his prime, every bit as good as of FoV.
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I just flew over the last posts, but i think no one mentioned that u need Boots from the Goblin Shop, u can buy them when the first night is over imo. They are expensive but it is worth it.
When u got into the mid game, u also want to buy the invulnerability pots and the healing/protection scrolls!
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On July 13 2011 10:23 BilltownRunner wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2011 17:14 Djagulingu wrote:On July 11 2011 15:04 BilltownRunner wrote:On July 10 2011 17:29 Djagulingu wrote:On July 09 2011 11:01 Bibbit wrote:On July 09 2011 10:55 Fulgrim wrote:On July 09 2011 10:46 n.DieJokes wrote:
Can someone tell me about who the dominate players are and were and where some of the non grubby war3 players rising to prominence in sc2 came from? How good they were relatively and the korea/world balance I didn't really follow wc3 scene at all, but I thought that: Naniwa Grubby Thorzain Moon were all warcraft 3 players Yeah a lot of top non-korean sc2 players come from. I think the question is more how good they were in war3. I know Grubby and Moon were like super good and I learned recently that Nani was on fnatic and claimed to be the equivalent of what kawaiirice is to fnatic in sc2.  I'd be interested in who Thorzain was in war3.  He was one of the two laughing stocks of EU Team of Stars War Shanghai along with ThomasG, aka RAGECupcake. He lost to TH000's off race and SocceR when he decided to use only a single hero which was then Warden. You and me couldn't get less wins than ThomasG and ThorZain. On July 09 2011 10:46 n.DieJokes wrote:
Can someone tell me about who the dominate players are and were and where some of the non grubby war3 players rising to prominence in sc2 came from? How good they were relatively and the korea/world balance There were too few good players in EU/NA in WC3 scene. It was basically Korea vs China. China had likes of TeD, TH000, Infi, Fly%100 and Korea had  Lyn, FoCuS, ReMinD,  Moon, SocceR, viOlet etc. It was basically like Undead vs Nightelf is unplayable for Nightelf and Undead vs Orc is unplayable for Undead (ReMinD, night elf player, off raced orc against undead players for a good amount of time and even after he started playing NE again, his vU matchup was rather weak). Thorzain might have had one bad tournament but he was almost on Grubby's level when they both quit. Can't remember exactly but iirc he lost 1-2, 1-2 to grubby at european blizzcon. Thorzain was 2/3rd best player in Europe along with Lucifron for the last 6 months of the game. I was lucky enough to catch the last chunks of WC3 scene and Thorzain was on the same level as grubby? Lol. He was never 2/3rd best player in europe. In EU, Happy was the best player along with Grubby and he was the only player in Grubby's level. ThomasG, ThorZain, Lucifron, Vortix, XLorD, whatever was never on that level. At least during the last 6 months of the game. And yeah, WC3 scene was like this: In the beginning, EU/NA people were able to compete with koreans, chinese people step into the game, koreans and chinese slowly take over, in the end, scene gets dominated by koreans and chinese. It's basically like A class koreans can beat the shit out of best european/north american players during the last 6 months. And, UD has a pretty high win rate against NE. It was like Space and TeD have a combined number of 3 losses to NE players (I'm just exaggarating, but those guys, and Happy too, rarely lost to NE. Like for each loss, they get 5-6 wins or something like that). @OP if you for some reason decide to play undead, watch TeD's games. He is like July of the WC3 scene. You are making it seem like Thorzain wasn't near grubby's level. Thorzain's ESWC 2010 Results Thorzain > Grubby, Focus, Vortix Thorzain < Lyn,Remind, Lucifron I forgot about happy though, you are right, happy and both grubby were clearly above his level but out of 10 games I would expect Thorzain to take 3-4 off both grubby and happy. He was certainly no slouch.
Thorzain got to qfinals of eswc2010 and got ezpz'd by remind there. But his games vs Lyn in those groups were good (I think they were 1-1 in that group) but he lost to him later on and Lyn went on and won everything. Yeah, he wasn't that much of a slouch, in fact he was in top 5 of europe. But he was clearly behind Grubby and Happy and besides those two, there were nobody else from EU that could compete with top koreans/chinese. ThomasG and ThorZain were just not on par. Neither were Kas/Lucifron/Ciara/VortiX/XlorD. ThorZain's vOrc was good, vNelf was bad. He could compete with likes of Focus and Lyn, but he'd get ezpz'd by TH000's or 2nd tier korean's Nelf.
On July 13 2011 15:04 Bibbit wrote:
So do I even bother trying to kill Blademaster? I followed people's advice and got that dust stuff or whatever it is. Now I get to see him but he's still too fast. >_> I guess that Mountain King is good cuz of the stun thing he has?
I haven't really looked at a lot of Human vs Orc replays yet, gonna start on that now I guess.
I saw someone effectively using sorceress spells on BM. You may try that too. But I don't take responsibility if your strat fails because the same guy pulled 3 wisps at the start to ancient rush an orc on Gnoll Wood (a 6 player map, he actually pulled that one off).
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why u gotta be so obsessed with saying all these europeans aren't as good? Saying that nobody else from EU could compete with top koreans/chinese is just wrong. ThomasG beat Remind in last year's WCG group stages, and then Remind won like a 40 min tie breaker game, and then Remind went on to win the whole tournament. You're just trashing random euro players
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You let that BM get to level 4-5 I say GG hahaha, when he starts to one shot your priests and sorcs and footies.... I just want to shoot myself in the head...
If you're playing against noobs, whats fun to do with human is to mass towers inside your base, get either AM for extra unit (water elemental) or MK to snipe the T1 units that get too close with hammer bolt. Rush to T3 while banking 3-4k gold, build 3-4 gryphon aviaries, pump them gryphons and look at your opponents army get crushed... it only works in low level plays though but always funny to control 12 gryphons and yell muahahahaha while focus firing stuff
If you like to play UD, dont bother getting another hero at the beginning other than DK. T2 -> Lich, then you just nuke the hell out of stuff with death coil + ice nova, T3, theres this tavern hero you can get who can also nuke, but i cant remember which one right now.
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Forgot the gargoyle in my last post.
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Just thought i drop a few more names of wc3 players that i dont remember reading about in this thread:
+ Show Spoiler +SjoW
NightEnd
Naama
Loner
HasuObs
mOOnGlade
Kiwikaki
Check
Sase
Satiini
Axslav
Stalife
Happy (russian)
There are also a shitload of names i recognize, but they havent made much of splash in sc2 so i left them out
Also if you want to one of the greatest things ever done in wc3, watch TillerMans early (Reign of Chaos) commentary. Its hilarious.
Tillermans Human vs. Undead imbalance
That youtube user also has some other commentaries by him which are also hilarious. Search for T man or tillerman in his uploads. Another great commentary on that account is T-Man and Sin's 2v2 adventures. Its basically Tillerman whining about how hopeless his ally, CrazyAssassin (a decent player in his time) is. The scottish accent just gives me the biggest grin ever.
Edit: If wc3 dies in China, it will be be really really interesting to see how well many of them do in sc2. China has always been a good RTS nation but they havent made in sc2 so far.
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I've been involved in wc3 a long time. and below is a list that "feels" right to me as I rank the players all-time. I've made it post 2004 as this can be considered a divider of eras. Level of play steadily improved and many patches were released but there was no dramatic change beyond 2004 imo.
1. Moon E Korea
2. Grubby O Netherlands
3. Sky H China
4. Remind E Korea
5. ToD H France
6. Lyn O Korea
7. Infi H China
8. Zacard O Korea
9. Check E/O Korea
10. Fly O China
11. FoV U Korea
12. TeD U China
13. Th000 H/E China
14. Sweet U Korea
15. Creo E Norway
16. Deadman E Russia
17. Focus O Korea
18. Happy U Russia
19. Soccer E Korea
20. Lucifer U Korea
21. Nicker E Russia
22. Soju E Korea
23. SaSe E Sweden
24. Insomnia H Bulgaria
25. Who O Korea
...
guaranteed I missed someone and not everyone will agree but wtvr. oh I did miss GoStop...hed probably be below 20 though.
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u missed heman and xiaot, should both be top 20 ~~
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That's a very good list, and your top 5 is probably the same as mine. Some disagreements however:
A guy like Nicker was only notable when most european pros had quit. SaSe was on the same level as guys like Satiini and HoT, not top 25 world of all time imo. I'd rank players like Freedom, Madfrog and HeMan above them.
Check was consistent and good, but rating him over powerhouses like FoV, Sweet and Th000? No way! Check was always a "top 5 korean Elf", but was not amazing in the way his fellow countrymen and elfs Moon, Freedom, Remind and Soju were.
Some very good players that probably could be on the list:
Madfrog (Best Euro UD of all time, on the same level as the top korean Undeads when he played)
Freedom (Should never have quit the game in favor of BW. Sick talent, anyone remember his famous series vs Moon?)
ReiGn (Just under the level of FoV/Sweet/Lucifer, but mainly did good in national tournies)
HeMan (Legendary human player, was still very good in 2004-2005ish iirc. Always did extremely well in the important tournaments, not so much online)
FaTC (Mr. 2-0 in WC3L and strong results vs Koreans. Best frenchie before ToD went to Korea)
Xiaot
And some other very good players: Romeo, GoStop, Shy, Swain (Showbu), Susiria, Kenshin_Werra, MagicYang, Farseer, Shortround, Suho
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Id like to repeat that my list is post-2004. So guys like Freedom, Heman, Madfrog, Fatc swain wouldn't really make it imo. I agree, Check should be a bit lower but before he experimented with orc he was really really good. I do think I put Focus a bit too high as well. xiaot and farseer should also be on it. I dont think Reign, Shortround, or anyone else really makes it for me. Sase and Hot are about even but sase was at that level longer. Satiini was a level below both.
anyways wtvr lawl. everyone mentioned in last few posts has made a big splash on the world scene.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://i1126.photobucket.com/albums/l608/Manlier/wall-infernal.jpg)
