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Hey, I already asked my circles of sc friends and none of them came up with anything so I'm going to bring this to TL!
Have there been any foreign players (or even Koreans) who have switched from Protoss or Zerg to playing Terran as their main? And I don't care about random guys who have like 2 games in their tlpd I'm talking somebody who was actually legit. I can think of more players off the top of my head that have switched out of T, for example morrow who played terran exclusively for 6-8 months through beta up till around a month or two after release then switched to Z. Also a more recent example has been lzgamer who played terran up till about a month ago and has now switched to Z and is doing quite solidly already. Nobody really knows what to expect from lz yet but I wouldn't be surprised if he does very well in Anaheim. (better than he did in most of his T mlg's)
This argument stemmed from yet another "T is overpowered" argument to which I brought up the point do you even see players switching to T? My honest opinion after almost a year of playing terran in sc2 is that it's easy to get silly wins but really quite hard to play a solid macro game. When I was obsing kawaiirice vs a couple koreans on his stream the other day in TL open it really reminded me of watching broodwar where you had to make all the right moves, drop all the right places at the right times and have armies in the right locations and good positioning just to win a very close 40 minute tvz. There are times where it seems like T plays nearly perfectly and still loses to a Z/P that does seemingly nothing all game.
It seems like many of the things that make terran "good" aren't very good at all like the element of surprise and various allins. Many bad terran players get cheap and easy wins playing with these tactics but I honestly don't feel that makes the race good. Winning with an scv allin or some 2port banshee/pdd+30scvs allin doesn't really mean the race is overpowered, it means there's issues with the defenders advantage or proper scouting in this game. Longer rush distances on newer maps (good riddance steppes of war, delta quadrant close ground lost temple/metal) have eased some of this pain but there is still plenty of crap that goes on on a daily basis even at top levels and the top of the ladder.
Now I know the first thing somebody will say as a counterargument to this (and I agree is quite a valid counter argument) "BUT KOREAN T's OWN SON GSL SEASON 1 TVT FINALS, GSL SUPER TOURNAMENT TVT FINALS....MLG COLUMBUS MMA ROFL SUP?"
Or on a foreigner level Jinro roflstomping kids in MLG Dallas 2010 or Thorzain winning the biggest and most competitive online event to date earlier this year TSL3.
Those are all quite valid points and absolutely valid legit tournament results. No one can deny that terrans have been winning tournaments, Thorzain's journey through the TSL was inspiring for the future of sc2 in my opinion. But final results aren't always the end of the story in my book. How did these terrans win? More scary than asking that even is considering who some of these terrans are. Most of the korean T's we've seen up till this point had rather successful broodwar careers... the three T's I know of right away are Boxer+Nada(obviously legends), mvp(decent bw career, 70 some odd televised games). Other T's like mma/polt/bomber/marineking didn't really have a good bw career but some of them were quite young or at least solid players on B teams in bw.
The best bw Z to switch (that I know of at least) has been July and he's had moderate success in sc2 getting 2nd in a GSL and placing well in other tournaments. July similar to boxer has been around for ages and while he's a legend (the god of war ffs) his best days are probably behind him. There's no denying he's still a top player, but it was pretty clear his peak bw days were behind him even before the switch to sc2. Should that justify or invalidate him for the sake of this argument? No not at all it's just an observation.
Looking at other top players in other races, players like MC and Nestea (2 time gsl winners) were basically bw failures.(nestea had about 30 televised games with a 34% winrate. MC was a daunting 1-9 in his broodwar career, ironically his lone win was against an osl winner in the Shinhan08-09 Proleague against CJ's Effort) MC and Nestea are unquestionably top players of their races in sc2. The argument of korean T's dominating is kind of tough to say for sure at this point because it really feels that arguably some of the more talented players that have switched from bw to sc2 were terrans. I know it wont happen anytime soon but imagine if an absolute top talent like jaedong switched to sc2. When top guys of other races make the switch and start playing sc2 full time I find it kind of a scary thought for T users.
So far 6 GSL winners (including the gsl super tournament) we've seen 2 protoss 2 zerg and 2 terran, the terrans won mirror matches for their wins in the finals. (MC(2), Nestea(2), mvp, polt)
Anyway I went off on a little bit of a tangent there, didn't really expect to get into all that korean stuff, I don't watch much GSL (never bought a season ticket, only watch players I like and semifinals/finals) but I follow korean results and I watch much more foreign events and while it seems like there's good balance in the end and with tournament results I don't think those results are the end of the story.
Thanks for reading. 
  
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Korea (South)11595 Posts
idra? rob you coulda just pm'd me.
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On July 07 2011 12:54 CaucasianAsian wrote:
idra?
TO terran, not from terran.
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Jinro i believe was toss in sc1 and i know that rainbow was toss in sc1 aswell as marineking but marineking had very good sucess but he now in the kong line if anyone knows what i talking about lol...
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Korea (South)11595 Posts
oh right. brain fart. lol
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I know Rainbow and mkp both played toss in bw. I think clide is the same though could be wrong.
I think the arguement of T being op is just because they are versatile race. They can pretty much do whatever they want and make drastic tech switches fast. People don't like that. With enough scouting, T becomes easy to counter.
T though is a much harder race to play then the other two in regard to macro. One has to be on top of 3-4 rax, fac's and starports. More as time goes by.
Zerg you have 1 building to produce things. toss has a few but 1 of them is easier to use. Though all 3 races have things they cry about. and tbh the game is balanced. The talent pool in each race is not.
This is why I feel more are switching to T. Koreans feel like T is a challenge to play. Its harder to macro and harder to paly well. Its more timing based.
I play P. When i offrace as T. I have to hit certain timings or i ust die to anything. Toss has less need for that.
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Byun used to play protoss (in sc2) I think.
Also just to be certain, are you saying you think terran is underpowered or that they're not overpowered? I whole-heartedly agree with one of those things. ^^
Edit: Changed a period to a question mark!
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this explain ur all in me in TLOpen... i already knew you have the named for using banshee but i thought it was back in beta...
Terran for most part was really OP since beta. Most of their wins are because they abuse the shit outa tech that got nerfed today: reapers, banshee, marauder, etc... After patches, the game comes closed to a balance point where they have to win with a soild macro game, and lots of terran user start falling behind. Example would be Lz, jinro, and may be even TLO. These players just won their games because they were a step a head of the meta game at the time but now when you have to win not by cleverness but by true macro skill, they started to fall behind.
On the otherside, P and Z constantly getting big balance change yo their own race which cause a tons of factors unexplored. For example on Shakuras i could win vs any Z by going carriers but it looks exactly like a 6 gates all in, pretty sure its unstoppable due to how large shakuras 2 base is to scout with a single ovie.
You could either start switching race now, or choose the match up you want to play just like in BW: TvT, TvP, PvZ. Its never too late :3
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ugh.. No. I switched P (in BW) > T cause i wanted to be a moving fortress of tanks. What I get is Colossi zipping my marines and banelings destroying everything. Im mad.
oh i answered the question thinking you were referring to anyone T_T.. I kinda feel conceited lol.
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Hi luckyfool, I've played with you a bit here and there. Friends with the Green forest guys, anyways to answer your question personally. I haven't, and don't know anyone who has, but I have switch from a masters terran to playing zerg a little bit on a separate account. My reason for doing this also stemmed from a Terran is overpowered argument where they tried to say that I couldn't be good if I didn't play T. So I've dabbled with zerg a little bit playing maybe 150 games total and I took my gf's account from gold to almost masters already. I'm sure if I play maybe 100 more games i'll easily be masters, which we all know doesn't matter. But I would like to say that I don't think Terran is any easier to play then zerg, they both require different styles. I personally think at the highest level that zerg is a better race. After I get masters and rape my friends with zerg ( which none of them can beat my zerg or terran) I will be switching back to Terran. I played Terran in BW and I love the Terran race.
Also on a side note, I can think of people switching from T to Z and having success but nobody switched to T from other races that I can think of.
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MarineKingPrime
Jinro
But if you think about it, most of the top players in SC2 came from WC3. Nobody really switched to terran. Many WC3 players play Protoss, and the majority of terrans in SC2 are the ones who played terran in BW, or were WC3 players..
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On July 07 2011 13:37 Zlasher wrote:
MarineKingPrime
Jinro
But if you think about it, most of the top players in SC2 came from WC3. Nobody really switched to terran. Many WC3 players play Protoss, and the majority of terrans in SC2 are the ones who played terran in BW, or were WC3 players..
How long did MKP and Jinro play other races? and were they any good at all with them before switching to T?
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On July 07 2011 13:39 LuckyFool wrote:Show nested quote +On July 07 2011 13:37 Zlasher wrote:
MarineKingPrime
Jinro
But if you think about it, most of the top players in SC2 came from WC3. Nobody really switched to terran. Many WC3 players play Protoss, and the majority of terrans in SC2 are the ones who played terran in BW, or were WC3 players.. How long did MKP and Jinro play other races? and were they any good at all with them before switching to T?
They both played P in sc1 but I think they've been T for all of SC2. I'm sure I'll be corrected if I'm wrong. :D
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Marine King played on mbc hero in bw as a b teamer under the name Clair. He's actually in that tv show hyunjoon progamer or whatever it's called, episode 2 or 3. He didn't have any sucess and he has only played Terran in sc2 professionally. I know a lot of the top Korean players ladder as off races and do very very well.
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On July 07 2011 13:37 Zlasher wrote:
MarineKingPrime
Jinro
But if you think about it, most of the top players in SC2 came from WC3.
Only in the foreigner scene, which doesn't really matter in the grand scheme of things.
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On July 07 2011 13:42 Bibbit wrote:Show nested quote +On July 07 2011 13:39 LuckyFool wrote:On July 07 2011 13:37 Zlasher wrote:
MarineKingPrime
Jinro
But if you think about it, most of the top players in SC2 came from WC3. Nobody really switched to terran. Many WC3 players play Protoss, and the majority of terrans in SC2 are the ones who played terran in BW, or were WC3 players.. How long did MKP and Jinro play other races? and were they any good at all with them before switching to T? They both played P in sc1 but I think they've been T for all of SC2. I'm sure I'll be corrected if I'm wrong. :D
there are MANY players who played other races in sc1, Idra switching from T in bw to Z in sc2 for example.
I'm more interested in players who were known in beta or early release for a race other than T and switched, as far as I know no one?
TLO has switched around and had nice success with Z/T I sorta forgot about him in the op. He could possible be one example although he was mainly just a random player into T into Z then back to T...
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Gumihofou was random -> terran. Only other player in korean scene that switched race was guineapig but he doesn't have anything to do with Terran.
Closest thing in foreign scene at the highest levels is morrow race picking TvZ.
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On July 07 2011 13:51 LuckyFool wrote:Show nested quote +On July 07 2011 13:42 Bibbit wrote:On July 07 2011 13:39 LuckyFool wrote:On July 07 2011 13:37 Zlasher wrote:
MarineKingPrime
Jinro
But if you think about it, most of the top players in SC2 came from WC3. Nobody really switched to terran. Many WC3 players play Protoss, and the majority of terrans in SC2 are the ones who played terran in BW, or were WC3 players.. How long did MKP and Jinro play other races? and were they any good at all with them before switching to T? They both played P in sc1 but I think they've been T for all of SC2. I'm sure I'll be corrected if I'm wrong. :D there are MANY players who played other races in sc1, Idra switching from T in bw to Z in sc2 for example. I'm more interested in players who were known in beta or early release for a race other than T and switched, as far as I know no one? TLO has switched around and had nice success with Z/T I sorta forgot about him in the op. He could possible be one example although he was mainly just a random player into T into Z then back to T...
Besides morrow, who has had success switching races post release??
I feel like using players who switch races as an argument for balance/imbalance is a moot point tbh
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luckyfool those are some very kind words and a great read!
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I believe tester played T early in the beta and was having sucess, but switched back to protoss.
Morrow switched from T to Z, but I can't think of anyone who has switched from X to T... ):
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You need to word your title and OP better then, if yo'ure asking if anyone has switched, while in SC2, from Z/P to Terran.
The answer is No, because Terran has never been that good  And its just been on the decline since release day.
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On July 07 2011 13:51 LuckyFool wrote:Show nested quote +On July 07 2011 13:42 Bibbit wrote:On July 07 2011 13:39 LuckyFool wrote:On July 07 2011 13:37 Zlasher wrote:
MarineKingPrime
Jinro
But if you think about it, most of the top players in SC2 came from WC3. Nobody really switched to terran. Many WC3 players play Protoss, and the majority of terrans in SC2 are the ones who played terran in BW, or were WC3 players.. How long did MKP and Jinro play other races? and were they any good at all with them before switching to T? They both played P in sc1 but I think they've been T for all of SC2. I'm sure I'll be corrected if I'm wrong. :D there are MANY players who played other races in sc1, Idra switching from T in bw to Z in sc2 for example. I'm more interested in players who were known in beta or early release for a race other than T and switched, as far as I know no one? TLO has switched around and had nice success with Z/T I sorta forgot about him in the op. He could possible be one example although he was mainly just a random player into T into Z then back to T...
Yeah, I know. Just explaining what that Zlasher character was talking about. ^_^
Like I said earlier, I think Byun used to play Protoss.
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United States10774 Posts
Thorzain was Protoss earlier, during Beta I believe. Now obviously he is Terran and successful. I am surprised nobody has mentioned him yet.
My honest opinion is that it's the strongest race in series settings. It's an extremely versatile race with lots of options. Easy to get wins in different ways, but hard to play a long, straight-up macro game vs an equally skilled opponent without mistakes. Basically similar to OP.
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ZeNexByun - Was originally a protoss named Bleach, he made it to like ro32 in GSL Open S1? I think he eliminated Artosis lol. Then he switched to Terran and from his recent games, did pretty well, Ro16 of GSL July right now.
TLO - Random --> Terran. TLO used Terran with his decent two GSL performances. I think he won the Pokerstars Idol Tour with T aswell.
Edit:
ThorZain as above. ^^
GumihofOu - Was Random, now he's a really good T in the GSTL.
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On July 07 2011 12:49 LuckyFool wrote:
This argument stemmed from yet another "T is overpowered" argument to which I brought up the point do you even see players switching to T? My honest opinion after almost a year of playing terran in sc2 is that it's easy to get silly wins but really quite hard to play a solid macro game. When I was obsing kawaiirice vs a couple koreans on his stream the other day in TL open it really reminded me of watching broodwar where you had to make all the right moves, drop all the right places at the right times and have armies in the right locations and good positioning just to win a very close 40 minute tvz. There are times where it seems like T plays nearly perfectly and still loses to a Z/P that does seemingly nothing all game.
And I agree with most of what you said here. Terran feels much more execution based then the other races. Marine tank has a very predictable attack style so you need to be crisp in your execution (kind of like tvp push method). This is also why I've felt korean terrans were so successful. Execution perfection via mass gaming is their forte
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Byun's the only one that switched on a competitive level, he qualified for the first 2 GSLs as P switched and recently pwned both sC and mvp in TvT. Random -> x isnt race switching, but picking and dicking around with different races in beta .... well, who didn't do that 
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Race switching is rare in general. How many players switched to zerg or protoss and had success? Morrow is the only one that comes to mind. Like others have said, ZenexByun is pretty much the only one to switch to terran.
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On July 07 2011 13:58 Zlasher wrote:You need to word your title and OP better then, if yo'ure asking if anyone has switched, while in SC2, from Z/P to Terran. The answer is No, because Terran has never been that good And its just been on the decline since release day.
Actually did anyone switch to protoss from Z or T ? I don't think so either, cuz P has been in decline since beta as well, every change was a nerf except phoenix build time.
The ONLY player who kinda made a switch to T was TLO, but he went from R to T, which isn't that significant.
Like it's been mentioned before, T is the most execution based race. Many slower P players for example might not have the multitasking required for some aggressive T styles (like qxc's) and many Zs might actually struggle with macro, since it requires being very specific about the production facilities that you build.
In return for this T doesn't offer very significant advantages, so it's not as attractive to switch. Snipe is worse than feedback, Seeker missile is worse than fungal, etc. The only advantage is range, which, again only becomes an advantage if you're mechanically superior than your opponent (due to micro negating abilities, such as FF & fungal).
So if you're the type of person who thinks they can mechanically outplay your opponent, you might switch to T. Otherwise there's absolutely no reason.
There's only 1 player who went from Z to T since release and has achieved some success - it's Illusion from team Vile, who won one of the DC lans, but he's far from GSL level still, so I don't know if that counts.
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As a high masters player that switched from P to T I completely agree that T definitely has a grass is always greener effect on z/p. When you lose to Terran it always feels like 'what the he'll could I have done', but on the other side, with terrans great versatility also requires so much more mastery of every units nuances and the massive challenge of keeping up late game.
I feel like Terran has the most open ended skill cap of the 3 races. At the top, what separates one Protoss from another or one Zerg from another is nowhere near what separates one Terran from another, which is why you see people like QXC who can make better use of sheer relentless agression more than any other player, marineking who can beat the best players using only marines, or Thorzain who is a master of calculated timing and engagement.
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i agree, T really is easy mode if you all-in and do random aggro stuff that in brood war would be considered horribly bad play. probably because scouting in SC2 is harder, so T players are rewarded for playing like idiots in SC2.
And then on the other side of the coin...T is difficult if you try to play straight up macro games. It's pretty frustrating -_-
I think the only person who would qualify for your list lucky is morrow right now - he's basically a Zerg player but switches to T so he does not have to ZvZ.
Other than that...yeahhhhh....
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cool stuff, awesome read too
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I used to play P but switched to T because P lacked early game versatility. It was mostly just x gate into robo or the occasional twilight council which quickly became boring. As mentioned by others, terrans have some strong early game timings/all-ins which can be difficult to stop if you're caught off guard. But macro wise T is hard especially if you go late game vs zerg imo. Protoss was definitely easier for me mid-late game.
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This is a pretty silly argument.
MorroW (as you mentioned) is the only person that has switched races and actually been competitively successful in all of sc2 IIRC...
You're acting like it's just switching to terran that's hard... has anyone ever switched to protoss and gotten tournament results?
Morrow so far I'm pretty sure is the only exception (at least in the foreigner scene... I have no idea about korea)
Also, the "easy to get cheap wins but hard to play a macro game" argument for T is exactly 100% the same for P
Not so much for Z though
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United Kingdom38257 Posts
On July 07 2011 14:31 MassIncestor wrote:Byun's the only one that switched on a competitive level, he qualified for the first 2 GSLs as P switched and recently pwned both sC and mvp in TvT. Random -> x isnt race switching, but picking and dicking around with different races in beta .... well, who didn't do that
I'm just going to quote this since for some reason people still seem to be ignoring it =p
Byun = best/most notable player to switch X to T.
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Byun is a great example, thanks!
And I agree with everyone, it looks like in general switching races is incredibly rare, I only have two foreigner examples of anyone switching races and both have been OUT of T. ^^
On July 09 2011 20:07 -orb- wrote:
Also, the "easy to get cheap wins but hard to play a macro game" argument for T is exactly 100% the same for P
I slightly disagree with this, I think it's equally as easy for both T and P to get cheap wins but I feel its much easier for protoss to play a macro game due to a couple factors:
1. being able to warp in units wherever needed in late game, (not having to worry as much about army positioning)
2. not having to force issues with multi pronged attacks and just in general being so insanely cost effective late game (especially vs Z)
Just not having to force issues and being able to sit back and let an automatic advantage build up for you over time as protoss makes macro games much easier in general. it's quite difficult defending drops and things but I think its more difficult for terran to execute this well than it is for protoss to defend.
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EPT
