So, as I said in the title I'm a bronze level player, so you can't really expect much from this, and I can't go too much into the details with this only because I haven't really tried to refine this or anything, it's just how I'd want to play protoss. I'm also not sure at all if it's good or bad, for bronze games it seems to be quite effective because there's no harassment or early aggression, and obviously against 2rax or 6pool or something this build is quite ineffective in the early stages, but after you've defended those early pushes, you can get back on track with it. I'll try to write this as prettily as possible, but I might fail horribly.
Basically it's like playing Zerg, only you're protoss. You use all your chrono boost on probes and upgrades. You expand as much as you can, you get upgrades from two forges (I usually get 1/1 then add second forge) and you rely a lot on sentries in the early stages. You add a ton of excess gateways. I usually have around 10 gateways on 2 bases, and go near to 20 if the game sticks out longer. You keep probes/zealots (usually probes for me) on Xel'Naga towers and in front of his base to see when he's attacking. Obviously switch to observers when possible. TL;DR Mass expand, mass upgrade, build a lot of gateways and keep unit count as low as possible.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HKrUwYSLvbY Here's a video of me playing the build against a Terran, on this I go for High Templar. I'm sorry but I don't have a replay for that. There's also other videos on my channel of me playing about the same build. It always varies in each game because I don't really have a set build order for this.
So far I haven't lost to anything particular. With the 9pylon scout I can rule off any early "cheeses" such as 6pool, and if my opponent in fact is going for a 6pool I can just build a forge early and wall myself in. I'd say that the worst enemy to this build is you yourself. You need to always be scouting for when he's attacking so you can have time to prepare for it. I also think that since I'm not making much units in the beginning, early drops could be really effective. Also if you fail at scouting any kind of super early pushes will demolish you because you don't have many units. Proxy 2rax for example.
So, as I have mentioned, I'm only a bronze level player so I don't know if this is any good on higher levels, but I really enjoy playing like this and so far I've played around 15 games with this build and I've only lost one. And I think it's because I fast expanded on gold instead of my natural on Metalopolis and he went mass marine/marauder.
So yeah, give me your opinions and suggestions about this, also I'd be pleased if a good player would study this kind of a build more, and make it work well instead of me just winging it.
EDIT: So people have been telling me only that something like this will never work and that I should only play standard builds. I say NO. I won't switch to standard builds until I myself can't do anything to improve the build anymore and I still lose every game. Only when the build is at it's peak and it can't win anyone, I'll stop using it. P.S. do read my other comments on this "blog" so you'll get a better view of the idea I have behind this build. EDIT2: Don't bother posting here anymore, I won't be reading it. I've had enough of people reading one line in my post and then lol at it and tell me my build is awful and how a standard build is better, and not even trying to think what I'm trying to accomplish with the build. I mean, I don't mind you criticizing this idea of mine, but don't repeatedly tell me how a standard build is better. Obviously there's been some "good" feedback too and I appreciate everyone taking their time to read this, but I just don't care anymore.
1) you can't support 10 gateways and double forge upgrades off 2 base 2) this build incorporates no tech, you can't secure a third with just gateway units against a competent zerg this means you will be forced to try and end the game early on
Pandabee, I think you completely miss the point. The idea is to not make units, it's to, as Ulfsark said, reinforce instantly. Just like Zerg. A zerg player drones as much as he can, expands a lot and queens pop Larva. Then instantly when Zerg sees an attack coming, he produces like 20 roaches, defends the attack and continues making Drones. Of course I know I can't have nonstop production of all that. And a176, you really think so?
What I read: I play by macroing until I have a huge macro lead on my opponent What I thought: This sounds like how you always play starcraft. (BW perspective here, I am aware that SC2 and especially some certain matchups have fewer macro games).
You seem to have a reasonable idea of what to do. If you want to go to the next level, here are a few suggestions:
1) You don't need that many gateways on two bases. You have that many because the way you are playing when an opponent attacks you usually have way too few forces and you need to make a lot at once. You should instead be using fewer gateways constantly, which will result in the same amount of resources being used (and since you saved a lot on gateway construction, you will actually have more resources at every point in the game) and a larger army at every point in the game. Learn how many gateways you can use off of one/two/three/four bases, and make that many, more when you're maxed (when you're maxed you want to be able to rebuild extremely quickly if you lose your entire army, plus you'll usually have the resources to do so).
2) Choose a timing to make a push, and optimize your unit count for that timing, while at the same time having enough to survive until then.
3) Always scout for hidden expansions. Even a single extra expansion can change the game dramatically. I've played games where I snuck a hidden expansion on my opponent, but I ended up losing because he did the same to me and I underestimated his army. Routinely use a probe or zealot to check up on every expansion.
4) When your units are just sitting there, unless you know that you'll need them to defend immediately, use them to put pressure on your opponent. Forcing them to make more units now means they can't spend as much on macro, which means fewer units later. Keep your units outside their base and pressure them. Plus, if they turn out to not have enough units to stop you (which I am pretty sure was the case several times in the game in the video), you can just win right there. You'll need to practice multitasking to get this to work well for you, but it's definitely worth it.
Speaking of multitasking... 5) Practice multitasking. You want to be producing probes, chronoboosting, producing units, expanding, scouting, harassing, et cetera all at once. To do this you'll need to learn to multitask. Make an effort to do two things at once, and you'll be amazed at how effective it is and you'll get used to multitasking. Going to attack? Load up a warp prism and make a drop at the same time! It's much easier to be on the offensive multitasking side than the defensive one, especially if your drop consists of DTs Just look at Bisu if you don't believe me (yes, I am aware that that is in BW. I presume that at low levels DTs are just as effective in SC2 as they were in BW).
There's a small difference in mine. Ever since I saw Adelscott vs MVP in TSL, I've been playing pvt mass gateway units, and that combined with Tyler's double forge opening, I've found it to be so strong that when I see a terran being queued up, I know that I'm going to win, regardless of him being favoured or slightly favoured or whatever. I've only lost 2 pvts in memory in the past few weeks.
The main thing I think I'd take off your build is that you can't be overly greedy with taking expos because then terran can break you when he attacks because you just don't have enough stuff/upgrades won't be done in time.
Anddd I really, really hate validating knowledge by posting ranks, but these people shutting it down by saying, bronze is bronze and even MC can't make it work and you can't use just gateways are wrong. I'm master on SEA and NA.
I'm going to pretend that you aren't bronze for a while.
Isn't this just a general greedy protoss strategy (not really your idea)? Fast expansions into high economy aggression/a very comforatble late game of some sort? As with all greedy builds, if your opponent scouts it and reacts well and does a timing attack where you have the 3rd going up but can't reap its benefits, then you are pretty much screwed. If you somehow are able to stop the timing attack, then obviously you are ahead, but it's kindof hard to do that when you don't have alot of units.
--end of pretense--
Being greedy is a pretty baller way to get out of bronze imo. 15 Nexus'ing (or whatever) your way out of bronze >>>> cheesing your way out. Although I reckon most of your opponents just don't know how to react/can't scout/can't macro/plain suck and eventually your macro >>> their macro.
BTW, if you have the chance to actually get an actual build of a pro or someone using a strategy like this, try to copy their timings/build order. Remember, a BO is just an optimization of a strategy. If you try to "feel your way" out, it probably won't be as optimized, and you are probably wasting your time. Pros might do variations that are safer/more refined.
EDIT: BW perspective here as well. I lose games to Protosses who double expand off 1 gateway. >< Also white-ra special tactics lololol
Why do so many people keep saying that it's too many gateways? Are they even reading what I've said or did I really explain it that bad?? The idea I've had is that I make extra gateways so I can reinforce myself faster, which usually ends up winning me the game. And with having a probe in front of his base and an observer inside his base I can see when he's going to attack so I can react accordingly. Couple of days ago I played an 3 player FFA with this build against my friends. I had my 200/200 colossus ball against his 200/200 colossus ball. But because I had 17 gateways on 3 bases, I could instantly get 17 extra Zealots when I lost units. Which led me into a very close victory during that fight. Also, right after that battle was over the Third player attacked with a huge zerg force, but because I had so many gateways I could just hold it off barely and I ended up taking the game with having my 200/200 army back so fast. During that game I also had 3 Robo's constantly building Colossus.
But yeah, I know I'd easily be "fine" with less gateways, I could constantly produce units from X gateways and X robo's, but my plan is not to have a constant production of units, instead it is to have a sudden spur of units when it's needed.
I also know that I might have to move away from this kind of a build or modify it by a ton if I'm ever going to rank higher on the ladder, but I just want to play this kind of a build as best as I can until it starts being awful.
Anyway, thanks to everyone who's responded so far. You people have made some great points!
On June 10 2011 16:04 BlueOrange wrote: Why do so many people keep saying that it's too many gateways? Are they even reading what I've said? The idea I've had is that I make extra gateways so I can reinforce myself faster, which usually ends up winning me the game. Couple of days ago I played an 3 player FFA with this build against my friends. I had my 200/200 colossus ball against his 200/200 colossus ball. But because I had 17 gateways on 3 bases, I could instantly get 17 extra Zealots when I lost units. Which led me into a very close victory during that fight. Also, right after that battle was over the Third player attacked with a huge zerg force, but because I had so many gateways I could just hold it off barely and I ended up taking the game with having my 200/200 army back so fast. During that game I also had 3 Robo's constantly building Colossus.
But yeah, I know I'd easily be "fine" with less gateways, I could constantly produce units from X gateways and X robo's, but my plan is not to have a constant production of units, instead it is to have a sudden spur of units when it's needed.
I also know that I might have to move away from this kind of a build or modify it by a ton if I'm ever going to rank higher on the ladder, but I just want to play this kind of a build as best as I can until it starts being awful.
Anyway, thanks to everyone who's responded so far. You people have made some great points!
Typical 3 base greedy economy aggression involves you having a 200/200 army when the Terran/Zerg has like, a much smaller army. As such, you should be constantly pumping units from your gateways as you make gateways. I mean, if 3 base can support 17 gateways, then sure, go for it. But put the extra gateways down after you max out. The thing about timings is that you have to make the most of them. If you can get to 200/200 faster than they can, but decide to not attack them (or, in your case, put down 17 gateways before making an army) and wait until they also have 200/200, then you've lost your advantage in macro and base count, imo.
On June 10 2011 16:15 Nazza wrote: Typical 3 base greedy economy aggression involves you having a 200/200 army when the Terran/Zerg has like, a much smaller army. As such, you should be constantly pumping units from your gateways as you make gateways. I mean, if 3 base can support 17 gateways, then sure, go for it. But put the extra gateways down after you max out. The thing about timings is that you have to make the most of them. If you can get to 200/200 faster than they can, but decide to not attack them (or, in your case, put down 17 gateways before making an army) and wait until they also have 200/200, then you've lost your advantage in macro and base count, imo.
Yes, obviously that would be smart but it's not the way I want to play. I want to play passively, defending and getting a huge lead in economy instead of trying to max out as fast as possible. I scout to see what my enemy has, decide do I build units or more gateways. I try my best to keep upgrades rolling in as much as possible, and when I have enough gateways I'll jump from 100 to 200 in food and attack.
I don't like playing aggressive, and I don't like going for a maxed out army "as fast as possible." I'd rather get a lot of excess minerals to build extra structures, get a ton of gas to get a lot of the gas heavy units early on, such as Sentries and High Templar, and then as I have the "insane" amount of extra gates I'll get to 200/200 in a few rounds of gates, then attack and reinforce as much as possible. Also one of the reasons why I like this is that let's say I lose the battle. He has superior control of his army and demolishes my army. If I had a "normal" amount of gates I might have a harder time defending the incoming attack (supposing there is one) and I might even lose, but as I have a ton of extra gates I can build up my army back that much faster, so the defending will be easier.
And I don't play this game to "win". I play it to have fun. Of course if going 4gate or 3gate expand was fun I'd do that. I actually even started practicing protoss using 3gate expand build, but it was too boring.
I used to be really really awful at scouting, I actually didn't scout at all some time ago. But now with this build I'm always scouting, if my scout probe dies I'll instantly send another one. I also like how I need to react when I see something happen, if I see an attack coming and I have no units, I need to start building them as fast as possible. As opposed to a more standard build where you constantly make units so you have the defense ready already when the attack starts, and you only reinforce it.
So yeah, I enjoy playing with this build and I plan on continuing. I also plan on improving it and maybe modify it enough to make it actually something good. I know this build is greedy and kind of weak, but that's what refining and improving is for, right?
On June 10 2011 15:28 BlueOrange wrote: Pandabee, I think you completely miss the point. The idea is to not make units, it's to, as Ulfsark said, reinforce instantly. Just like Zerg. A zerg player drones as much as he can, expands a lot and queens pop Larva. Then instantly when Zerg sees an attack coming, he produces like 20 roaches, defends the attack and continues making Drones. Of course I know I can't have nonstop production of all that. And a176, you really think so?
Lol well here's the thing matey. if you're only using the gateways for your "reinforce instantly" style then when will you ever make units? if your macro is anywhere near decent you should not be able to produce off more than 8 at a time unless u stockpile mineral/gas and the only time u want to stockpile is either when u are saving up for something (ie 400 gas for colossus + thermal lance at once) or when u are maxed. this kind of style is something all protoss do.. .in Late game, not early-mid game because late game is when protoss has economy to support making a ton of gateways, 36 , 48, 50 however many u can afford its all good ! however in early mid game u want to have less structures and produce off them as constantly as possible to build up your army, and u are not taking something else into account
if u only use gateways to reinforce then zerg is free to expand, since u spend extra minerals on useless gateways zerg can take up a free hatch no problem.
so what im trying to say is... a reinforcement / mass gateway style is what u want to go for late game. in early-mid game u want to get away with few structures and get your tech/upgrades up so you can actually use that reinforcement/mass gw style in the late game where it belongs. only exception to this is where you're doing a gateway style that incorporates upgrades/twilight council tech such as tylers double forge pvt. but this style does not overadd gateways, it adds enough to be able to produce off them constantly and on top of that it adds in tech although it might not be colossus or HT (not right away anyway) it still gets the twilight council and upgrades. however gateway style vs zerg in early-mid game is only for all in push builds (1 base 4 gate, 2 base 6 gate).
It's not so much aggression as it is making the natural decision. When you are 80 supply ahead of your opponent, it's a natural decision to attack, or "be aggressive". This is different from playing an aggressive style. Probably poor choice of words on my part (not even sure if it's even meant to be called "3 base aggression". 3 base and all-in are completely different things)
Your entire thought pattern confuses me OP. You say you want to have fun, but you are formulating a strategy to win the game (unless you are just playing to improve, and don't care about the actual wins itself, but care about winning). You ask for advice, but are state that "it's not how you want to play the game".
Here is me, a Diamond Toss, trying out the build against a Platnum Terran, I was pretty sloppy but do with it as you will. My thoughts while trying it out: stealing a gas might be helpful as this build does not fare too well against banshees without building mineral line cannons. Knowing you can instantly warp in units to defend expos makes it feel safer to expo more freely. I would advise against going collosus with this build as that detracts from the strengths of the build (mobility, ease of countering). Also I would advise against it on close positions. Hope that helps some.
I deviated slightly from the build in that I did not build sentries, that was mostly due to scouting the banshees and deciding to use the gas for more HT's instead, though in differant situation I may have built them instead.
The reason zerg styles play as they do is because larvae are used for both fighting units and drones. That's the only reason why they want to try to minimize the amount of fighting units they have.
That obviously doesn't apply to protoss because they can build probes and units at the same time, so the "passive economic" style is pointless. Tech builds are already commonly utilized, such as 2forge ones.
I scout to see what my enemy has, decide do I build units or more gateways. I try my best to keep upgrades rolling in as much as possible, and when I have enough gateways I'll jump from 100 to 200 in food and attack.
Think about it: your "sudden building of units all at the same time" only puts units there that already would have been produced in normal macro. The difference is that your net army would be lower because you spent more money on gateways rather than units, and that you are actually slower in reinforcing because your cooldown is wasted bringing your army to where it should be normally, rather than adding more units on top of an already built one.
So that only leaves your idea of teching up, but more gateways don't help you do that, if anything they slow it down, that's simply called fast teching, where people find an optimal time where they can do so with a relatively small timing window of vulnerability/have sufficient units.
It doesn't work because you can't power workers as fast as zerg does, even with chronoboost. The reason zerg plays the way they do is because of larva management, not because its some fancy way to do it.
Just take your bases safely, build units, and get out of bronze.
Here is me, a Diamond Toss, trying out the build against a Platnum Terran, I was pretty sloppy but do with it as you will. My thoughts while trying it out: stealing a gas might be helpful as this build does not fare too well against banshees without building mineral line cannons. Knowing you can instantly warp in units to defend expos makes it feel safer to expo more freely. I would advise against going collosus with this build as that detracts from the strengths of the build (mobility, ease of countering). Also I would advise against it on close positions. Hope that helps some.
I deviated slightly from the build in that I did not build sentries, that was mostly due to scouting the banshees and deciding to use the gas for more HT's instead, though in differant situation I may have built them instead.
Oh my my my! I really appreciate that you used some of your time to play with this little idea of mine. Also yes, the fact that you didn't go for sentries. I also like this build because you really don't only need to do one thing and stick with it. I like that you can either go mass stalker and get Templar later as you did, or you can tech up to Templar/colossi and mass sentries and Zealots, or then just mass gateways with no teching up.
Anyway, thanks again for using your time for this!
On June 10 2011 17:27 Zlasher wrote: It doesn't work because you can't power workers as fast as zerg does, even with chronoboost. The reason zerg plays the way they do is because of larva management, not because its some fancy way to do it.
Just take your bases safely, build units, and get out of bronze.
This. Zergs play like this because they have to choose between workers and army, as protoss you dont have to make this choice, since you can produce workers and units at the same time. This playstyle may be fun and may work in bronze (like basically anything), but in the end its not optimal, and if your goal is to move up and improve i dont think you should stick to it.
On June 10 2011 17:27 Zlasher wrote: It doesn't work because you can't power workers as fast as zerg does, even with chronoboost. The reason zerg plays the way they do is because of larva management, not because its some fancy way to do it.
Just take your bases safely, build units, and get out of bronze.
This. Zergs play like this because they have to choose between workers and army, as protoss you dont have to make this choice, since you can produce workers and units at the same time. This playstyle may be fun and may work in bronze (like basically anything), but in the end its not optimal, and if your goal is to move up and improve i dont think you should stick to it.
My goal is not only to improve in ranking, my goal is to improve my build. I know that Zerg works the way it does, and that Protoss can do both units and workers at the same time. But the only reason I brought zerg up is because they work so that they have less units in general, and when the attack is coming they burst out just enough to defend. Just like I play my build. I build up a lot of extra gateways only because I don't use all the money to units, since my plan isn't to max out as fast as possible. It's to survive until I have enough upgrades and unit producing structures that I can go to 200/200 and get back up to that position without having to take too long.
But anyway... I guess it wasn't smart to come here and talk about my idea before it was refined to work. It was just stupid thinking I could have some constructive advice about a build that is clearly lacking refinement. Well, I apologize for everyone using their time to read this unrefined build and I apologize to everyone who had to use their time to write about how bad this build is and how I should play standard instead of the way I want to.
I can actually see a kernel of logic in what he's saying (and I only saw it after watching the video).
First, assume that he has 1-2 gateways more than he can support, but he's ALSO teching/expanding. Then, in a pinch, he can cancel all upgrades/buildings-in-construction and divert those funds to unit production. He will end up with less units than if he had just built the optimal number of gateways and used them constantly, but he'll have more units than if he just had the extra 1.5 zealots' worth of units from not building the extra gateway and banked the resources from canceling that stuff (or didn't cancel them at all).
There's a few problems I can see with this, though:
1) You have to be sure that you're treading a fine-enough line. If you cancel all that stuff and hold comfortably, you've probably put yourself way behind. If the enemy doesn't attack before that stuff pays off, you're not playing optimally.
2) It's not the same problem as Zerg faces. With Zerg, you want to delay making units for as absolutely long as possible. With Protoss, it's better to keep making units than to tech/expand and have to cancel, as doing that wastes money.
3) You can somewhat emulate this strategy by spending chrono boost, rather than money on gateways, to increase production capacity.
edit: and yes, you definitely are good enough to get out of Bronze by playing standard.
lol. this is the defination of bronze-level macro.
Yeah, you totally miss the point.
Please people, don't post anything if you're not even trying to think about what I'm saying.
I see your point. Another terrible player theorycrafting about a strategy that will never work. I honestly cant imagine how bad your macro is, if you need 10 gates and double upgrades to spend your resources off two base. Are you perhaps playing this game blindfolded and by only using your left foot to macro?
lol. this is the defination of bronze-level macro.
Yeah, you totally miss the point.
Please people, don't post anything if you're not even trying to think about what I'm saying.
I see your point. Another terrible player theorycrafting about a strategy that will never work. I honestly cant imagine how bad your macro is, if you need 10 gates and double upgrades to spend your resources off two base. Are you perhaps playing this game blindfolded and by only using your left foot to macro?
Oh god.... The point is not to keep the money low 100% of the time. The idea is to keep adding structures, pile up some money, decide if I need units or can I build more structures and do what I see best fit. And if I went to 200/200 with a normal amount of structures, all the units died so I'd be 50/200 with 50 being only workers. I'd go back up to 100 with a "normal" build, but with a ton of extra gates I'll go up to 200/200 again in the same amount of time.
The idea is to REINFORCE faster not to macro 100% perfectly and build 200/200 as fast as possible.
lol. this is the defination of bronze-level macro.
Yeah, you totally miss the point.
Please people, don't post anything if you're not even trying to think about what I'm saying.
I see your point. Another terrible player theorycrafting about a strategy that will never work. I honestly cant imagine how bad your macro is, if you need 10 gates and double upgrades to spend your resources off two base. Are you perhaps playing this game blindfolded and by only using your left foot to macro?
Oh god.... The point is not to keep the money low 100% of the time. The idea is to keep adding structures, pile up some money, decide if I need units or can I build more structures and do what I see best fit. And if I went to 200/200 with a normal amount of structures, all the units died so I'd be 50/200 with 50 being only workers. I'd go back up to 100 with a "normal" build, but with a ton of extra gates I'll go up to 200/200 again in the same amount of time.
The idea is to REINFORCE faster not to macro 100% perfectly and build 200/200 as fast as possible.
It's better to accomplish that by building more Gateways once you hit 200/200. If you're only going to need them once you're maxed, why build them beforehand?
lol. this is the defination of bronze-level macro.
Yeah, you totally miss the point.
Please people, don't post anything if you're not even trying to think about what I'm saying.
I see your point. Another terrible player theorycrafting about a strategy that will never work. I honestly cant imagine how bad your macro is, if you need 10 gates and double upgrades to spend your resources off two base. Are you perhaps playing this game blindfolded and by only using your left foot to macro?
Oh god.... The point is not to keep the money low 100% of the time. The idea is to keep adding structures, pile up some money, decide if I need units or can I build more structures and do what I see best fit. And if I went to 200/200 with a normal amount of structures, all the units died so I'd be 50/200 with 50 being only workers. I'd go back up to 100 with a "normal" build, but with a ton of extra gates I'll go up to 200/200 again in the same amount of time.
The idea is to REINFORCE faster not to macro 100% perfectly and build 200/200 as fast as possible.
It's better to accomplish that by building more Gateways once you hit 200/200. If you're only going to need them once you're maxed, why build them beforehand?
Because I want to? Man, it's getting annoying that everyone's suggesting me to play a "standard" build because it's better. Anyway, what if my forces get wiped before I get to 200/200 and I only have 6 gates? I'll lose. With the extra gates early on I can reinforce my army even before getting 200/200. Let's say I get the oh-so funny (everyone's quoting it and mocking me for it) 10 gates on 2 bases. I'll get 10 units out when I need to, I don't have to produce out of them all 100% of the time for them to be useful. You people think too much if it's good or bad and what's optimal or not. If I enjoyed playing a standard build that had a high win rate I would play that, obviously. But this is the build I enjoy the most, this is what works for me and this is how I want to play. THIS build is what I want to improve, this is how I want to play Protoss. I don't care how much you people say that it's bad and it will never work and I don't care about you suggesting other builds that would be better. I posted this to get advice on how to improve this build, and not on how to choose a better build.
On June 10 2011 18:29 BlueOrange wrote: Because I want to? Man, it's getting annoying that everyone's suggesting me to play a "standard" build because it's better.
It was not apparent from your OP that you didn't give a shit if the build was any good or not. It looked like you were trying to get honest opinions as to if it was feasible. If you don't want anyone telling you it's a bad idea, then I'm afraid you're not going to get many replies that you like.
Anyway, what if my forces get wiped before I get to 200/200 and I only have 6 gates? I'll lose. With the extra gates early on I can reinforce my army even before getting 200/200.
This is only true if you're not spending all your money. If you have the optimal number of gates (that being the number that you can constantly produce out of while keeping your money low), additional gates won't matter as you won't have the money to use them anyway.
Let's say I get the oh-so funny (everyone's quoting it and mocking me for it) 10 gates on 2 bases. I'll get 10 units out when I need to, I don't have to produce out of them all 100% of the time for them to be useful. You people think too much if it's good or bad and what's optimal or not. If I enjoyed playing a standard build that had a high win rate I would play that, obviously. But this is the build I enjoy the most, this is what works for me and this is how I want to play. THIS build is what I want to improve, this is how I want to play Protoss. I don't care how much you people say that it's bad and it will never work and I don't care about you suggesting other builds that would be better. I posted this to get advice on how to improve this build, and not on how to choose a better build.
You should've made that clearer then, because a lot of people coming into this thread (including me) are going to try to genuinely help you become a better player, not patronise you. The only actual difference between this playstyle and the standard playstyle is that you build extra gates and don't use them. The only way to improve it is to not do that, so I'm not sure what you want people to say.
On June 10 2011 18:29 BlueOrange wrote: Because I want to? Man, it's getting annoying that everyone's suggesting me to play a "standard" build because it's better.
It was not apparent from your OP that you didn't give a shit if the build was any good or not. It looked like you were trying to get honest opinions as to if it was feasible. If you don't want anyone telling you it's a bad idea, then I'm afraid you're not going to get many replies that you like.
Anyway, what if my forces get wiped before I get to 200/200 and I only have 6 gates? I'll lose. With the extra gates early on I can reinforce my army even before getting 200/200.
This is only true if you're not spending all your money. If you have the optimal number of gates (that being the number that you can constantly produce out of while keeping your money low), additional gates won't matter as you won't have the money to use them anyway.
Let's say I get the oh-so funny (everyone's quoting it and mocking me for it) 10 gates on 2 bases. I'll get 10 units out when I need to, I don't have to produce out of them all 100% of the time for them to be useful. You people think too much if it's good or bad and what's optimal or not. If I enjoyed playing a standard build that had a high win rate I would play that, obviously. But this is the build I enjoy the most, this is what works for me and this is how I want to play. THIS build is what I want to improve, this is how I want to play Protoss. I don't care how much you people say that it's bad and it will never work and I don't care about you suggesting other builds that would be better. I posted this to get advice on how to improve this build, and not on how to choose a better build.
You should've made that clearer then, because a lot of people coming into this thread (including me) are going to try to genuinely help you become a better player, not patronise you. The only actual difference between this playstyle and the standard playstyle is that you build extra gates and don't use them. The only way to improve it is to not do that, so I'm not sure what you want people to say.
I want people to give me opinions about this build and how to improve it, not to tell me "oololol this will never work play a standard build or you'll never get better" I want to get this kind of a build work, and I think most of the people are not even thinking what I'm trying to accomplish instead they only read the amount of gateways and immediately say "Lol that's awful" and stop the evaluation of the build right there. Yes I know I'd probably rank higher on a standard build, yes I know a standard build would be more effective and yes I know this build might be an awful one but I want to use it and I don't want people to tell me otherwise.
Your chronoboosted probes will cost some amount of resources per unit time. When that exceeds / matches your income, then we want to get probes instead of gateways/units, as long as it doesn't kill you.
That's pretty simple. Now when your income exceeds probe production, then you're deciding between gateways or units. With zerg you can use your extra "gateways" to build more drones, which you can't match, but at some point investing in gateways over units may lead to more units. This is actually kind of interesting. If your income is constant, then more gateways won't = more units, until you're near maxed (see next part). If your income is increasing, then you might need more gateways than you currently have, for which you sacrifice units. So I'd say if as long as a) you're not maxed and b) you have less gateways than can handle constant production of your maximum income, then there is value in investing in gateways instead of units. Preferably if you don't die. Because in those cases, unless you're maxed, there will never be a point where you can have more units once you exceed this maximum supportable gateways.
Finally, when you're near the point when you can't build any more units, you choose between saving resources to build more units or building more gateways so you can build them faster.
I can see saving some gateways for warpins, to function kind of like cannons as defense.
Okay....just curious, how would you respond to a proxy raxes with a few scvs at about 4 minutes or so....seeing how your cybercore was up only at about 4:30 ish, and you had nothing else. there are so many ways to which this can die, before the 10 minute mark, by the time your grand plan kicks in. nr 10 minutes is not the way the game is played by most people.
I feel like this will suffer versus an aggressive opponent as you will likely need to produce units constantly to defend, but your build will be inefficient due to extra gateways. That said I think its a cool idea ^^
On June 10 2011 23:19 dartoo wrote: Okay....just curious, how would you respond to a proxy raxes with a few scvs at about 4 minutes or so....seeing how your cybercore was up only at about 4:30 ish, and you had nothing else. there are so many ways to which this can die, before the 10 minute mark, by the time your grand plan kicks in. nr 10 minutes is not the way the game is played by most people.
Well, I haven't met any proxy rax play so far, but I think I can conclude a proxy rax being done with scouting early, and if I do obviously I won't go for this build. Same as if I scout a 6pool I'll just wall myself with gate/forge and a pylon, then plant a cannon and pretty much do a 4gate or something. It's obvious this build won't do well against any early aggression, but I don't have to use it for when that happens.
Actually I even had a game against a zerg who 10 pooled me, I just went for the forge+cannon wall in and then I built up some sentries and Stalkers, after that I expanded to my natural, made a stalker ball and won the game.
But as I've said many times during all these posts I've made here, it's just what I started up with. I haven't refined it at all and I will in the future. Currently this build is in the "alpha" state so to say. I'll practice with it, play around with it and make another blog when I get it to work better and have it more reliable.
I think the problem people are having with this Blue is that 10 gates off 2 bases, and yes I understand "reproduction of units". Is that you can't actually support 10 gates off 2 bases and you can max faster with 8 gates, then expand and make another 2-3 gateways and you should never have your minerals break 1k while being the MOST cost efficient in reproducing your army. If everything you are doing is for reproduction and maxing out as fast you can... then it doesn't make any sense to make 'ALL' the gateways at once.
I love gateway based armies and use pure gateway quite heavily vs T (although I tech to have archons not sure if you do too?) and it works quite well with chargelots and blink stalker/archon with like 10-12 gateways and 3-4 bases.
On June 10 2011 17:47 StrangrDangr wrote: No problem, you may want to check out Day[9] daily number 306, it shows a game from HasuObs doing a very similiar style.
Ok, maybe not, since he did get a 3rd expo. Although I would ask, if you aren't going to use the gateways for said period of time, then why not grab the 3rd earlier? Obviously, you'd want the 9 gateways up before your economy kicks in, so you can actually make units with your production. Other than that, you are in defense mode until you take the 3rd, get 2/2 upgrades. Day9 probably said it better than I did, but Hasu attacked at that time because he had the upgrades, and knew that at that point, he had the advantage in upgrades/economy.
On June 11 2011 00:07 BlueOrange wrote: Well, I haven't met any proxy rax play so far, but I think I can conclude a proxy rax being done with scouting early, and if I do obviously I won't go for this build.
This is kind of funny since you don't scout at all in the replay (double gas steal is not scouting).
You will straight up die to megarax type cheese, or most rushes for that matter. But even with that aside, the reason this is a bad idea is basically as follows.
Let's say you and me are good players, and I use my warpgate cycles optimally, building just enough gateways and production facilities, and you build a bunch extra like in this video. We have mined the exact same amount of money, but you have spent a bunch of extra money on infrastructure.
This means that at any time before we both max out, I am going to have an army larger than you, by the amount of extra money that you have spent on infrastructure (ignoring for a second that my sentries/templar will have more energy, which is an additional benefit). This is also ignoring the fact that gateway-only armies are typically already cost-inefficient against terran and zerg, unless you have extremely good control and fantastic FFs. You can't just throw away a chunk of your army size and expect to do well against good players.
Now, I play a greedy PvT style and I regularly go up to 12+ gateways in lategame, but you start adding those extra gateways near 200 food and on 3+ bases, not on 2 bases.
-Double gas steal? Come on. :| The only time I gas steal a Terran is when it looks like he is doing a tech oriented build (AND IF YOU don't want him to do a tech oriented build). Needless to say, if he hasn't gotten gas by the time you reach his base, it is either way to early in the game and you are just wasting money and don't know what he will do, or he would have gotten gas by that point.
-Never wall off vs Terran. Always wall off vs Zerg. Never wall off vs Protoss (Very situational, not worth breaking a sweat over the 1 in 100 times a wall off will help you).
-You didn't get a single unit until you had 6 gateways, a forge, 2 nexus and 4 gas up. That is bad. Try learning the 1 gate FE (For PvT only, doesn't work vs Toss, situational vs Zerg), as that seems to follow what you actually want to do. Master the whole thing down to a T vs the comp before you even try it on the ladder. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=142887
-Be sure to get a robo, always. You NEED observers, and immortals are good too. You can bother with collosi in the later leagues because (from my experience, though this was before amulet removal) gateway units work 100% fine in lower leagues.
-Get the forge WELL AFTER your expo is done; you didn't use it for a very long time after it was built.
-As a rule of thumb there is no necessity to EVER build more than 4 gates per base (8 on 2, 12 on 3, 16 on 4), and in most cases (All cases for you, young boy, get used to stressing your macro ability until you can keep up) you can only really support 2-3 per base. The exception to this rule is when you are ALREADY at 200/200, and you start to stockpile minerals, then it is appropriate to build extra gateways. As other people have touched upon, if you macro decently you don't need to build so many (until you are maxed).
-Whenever you fight an army with ranged units (EG anything but mass zealot or mass ling) ALWAYS USE GUARDIAN SHIELD. It's really good, and it makes me cry to see you not use it vs mass marine. Also, you can reduce the number of forcefields you use by making sure they don't overlap.
-Hotkey your forge, robos and stargates.
-You built those 3 extra gateways @4:50 when there was 0 need to, as you were actually spending your money fine
- Come on man, building 10 pylons at once? You are making me cry. I understand getting frustrated when supply blocked but even then don't build any more than 4 at once (3 is already pushing it, though).
-Hotkey you HT and Sentries (or any spellcaster) to different numbers such as 2 or 3, even if you keep them in 1 also. This is so you can cast everyone's spells w/out needing to tab. Exhibit 1: you didn't use any sentry spells in the final battle.
All in all though, you looked pretty good for a bronze player. Just learn the 1 gate FE build and execute it properly and you will shoot up into the higher leagues in no time flat.
blah_blah, yeah, in that game my scouting didn't go well, though I still had the probe in front of his base all the time, but usually I get a really fast observer and get it into his base.
Anyway, Geovu. The gas steal was just something I did, it's not a part of my plan or anything, I just thought I'd do that in that game. Though I've done it a couple of times in other games aswell.
I only wall in because I'm used to it. I know wall in against terran isn't as useful but I've just gotten used to it so it's hard to let go.
I didn't make units until that late because I had no reason to. I had a probe in front of his base all the time so I knew when he'd attack, and when he did, as you probably could see I defended it easily.
Yeah, my forge was completed 30 seconds game time before I used it. Shocking.
My idea is to build extra gates to burst out units fast and reinforce instantly, and I'm sticking to it until it doesn't work anymore. When it doesn't, I'll try to modify the plan so it works, if it still doesn't, then maybe I'll switch the build.
I know I should use Guardian Shield, and I most of the time do use it, but sometimes I forget about it. Also, the force fields...Before that game I hadn't really even used them that much because I've never really had any need to, so I haven't practiced them much. I know I would need to use them better and I'm planning on improving my skills with them.
Yeah I'm bad with hotkeys, I'll be working on that as well.
10 Pylons at once was only because I had the extra income, I had the extra minerals stockpiled so I just thought "Ah what the hell" and put down all the pylons. I usually
I didn't use sentries in the final battle because I didn't really see a reason to. Yeah I could have saved a couple of zealots but I had so much money and so many gateways I could just instant reproduce the lost units. But yeah, I've been thinking of having 1,2,3 for units, where 1 has everything and 2 and 3 has X, such as sentries and templar. But as I said before I'm bad with hotkeys.
Yeah, well, I guess I'll just stop even bothering to come here and read all these posts. FFS I've tried 1gate expand, I've tireed 3 gate expand goddamn I've tried 4gate and I just can't enjoy them and I've said it over and over again..
do you see the problem with everything you just said?
Your mechanics are bad as well as your basic understanding of macro/strategy. These totally throw off your build.
you will pretty much always loose to anyone with even decent macro, and they wont even have to have a strategy other then build some units faster and more efficient then you and attack.
Your basically coming here and saying "here is a build I want to make work ... but don't comment on my poor mechanics or poor understanding of the game." they go hand and hand, and without it you'll probably never even get out of bronze.
A good build is an efficient way to execute a specific strategy or deal with other strategies.
10 gateways isn't efficient... let's assume you and another player both had good macro. You do your build and he does a normal macro efficient build. You'll both have the same number of probes and be gathering minerals at the same rate.... but you'll have a smaller army for most of early and mid game. ASSUMING he doesnt attack and kill you before that, lets say you catch up to his supply. Well he'll still be able to reinforce just as fast as you because you wont have enough money ever to support 10 gates if you have been macroing properly and he will match your reinforcements and get his expos/tech sooner because he doesn't have wasted income like you do.
not trying to be mean, just explaining
edit: to make your build decent, you would want a fast expo and some way to make it reasonably safe.....then mass and maybe go for an all in timing attack with upgrades finishing as you attack and cutting probes at a certain point. THEN reinforce for the kill. If you EVER reach 200/200 off of two bases you are doing it wrong:o
edit 2: and even then your build would have many problems but I know you just want to have fun. of course a player who scouts/macros/ and gets map control will still beat you every time because he will have a better unit composition, better positioning, which will allow him to either beat your army straight up, or out macro you with more bases.
You can have fun but you can't get mad when people point out your fundamental flaws and at the same time want to make your build better. They go hand in hand.
EPT
Just look at Bisu if you don't believe me (yes, I am aware that that is in BW. I presume that at low levels DTs are just as effective in SC2 as they were in BW).
