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So, as I said in the title I'm a bronze level player, so you can't really expect much from this, and I can't go too much into the details with this only because I haven't really tried to refine this or anything, it's just how I'd want to play protoss. I'm also not sure at all if it's good or bad, for bronze games it seems to be quite effective because there's no harassment or early aggression, and obviously against 2rax or 6pool or something this build is quite ineffective in the early stages, but after you've defended those early pushes, you can get back on track with it.
I'll try to write this as prettily as possible, but I might fail horribly.
The idea
+ Show Spoiler +Basically it's like playing Zerg, only you're protoss.
You use all your chrono boost on probes and upgrades.
You expand as much as you can, you get upgrades from two forges (I usually get 1/1 then add second forge) and you rely a lot on sentries in the early stages. You add a ton of excess gateways. I usually have around 10 gateways on 2 bases, and go near to 20 if the game sticks out longer.
You keep probes/zealots (usually probes for me) on Xel'Naga towers and in front of his base to see when he's attacking. Obviously switch to observers when possible.
TL;DR
Mass expand, mass upgrade, build a lot of gateways and keep unit count as low as possible.
How do I do the build
+ Show Spoiler +http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HKrUwYSLvbY
Here's a video of me playing the build against a Terran, on this I go for High Templar.
I'm sorry but I don't have a replay for that.
There's also other videos on my channel of me playing about the same build. It always varies in each game because I don't really have a set build order for this.
What is this build bad against
+ Show Spoiler +So far I haven't lost to anything particular. With the 9pylon scout I can rule off any early "cheeses" such as 6pool, and if my opponent in fact is going for a 6pool I can just build a forge early and wall myself in. I'd say that the worst enemy to this build is you yourself. You need to always be scouting for when he's attacking so you can have time to prepare for it. I also think that since I'm not making much units in the beginning, early drops could be really effective. Also if you fail at scouting any kind of super early pushes will demolish you because you don't have many units. Proxy 2rax for example.
So, as I have mentioned, I'm only a bronze level player so I don't know if this is any good on higher levels, but I really enjoy playing like this and so far I've played around 15 games with this build and I've only lost one. And I think it's because I fast expanded on gold instead of my natural on Metalopolis and he went mass marine/marauder.
So yeah, give me your opinions and suggestions about this, also I'd be pleased if a good player would study this kind of a build more, and make it work well instead of me just winging it.
EDIT:
So people have been telling me only that something like this will never work and that I should only play standard builds.
I say NO. I won't switch to standard builds until I myself can't do anything to improve the build anymore and I still lose every game. Only when the build is at it's peak and it can't win anyone, I'll stop using it.
P.S. do read my other comments on this "blog" so you'll get a better view of the idea I have behind this build.
EDIT2:
Don't bother posting here anymore, I won't be reading it. I've had enough of people reading one line in my post and then lol at it and tell me my build is awful and how a standard build is better, and not even trying to think what I'm trying to accomplish with the build. I mean, I don't mind you criticizing this idea of mine, but don't repeatedly tell me how a standard build is better. Obviously there's been some "good" feedback too and I appreciate everyone taking their time to read this, but I just don't care anymore.
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I try to do something similar vs T, just mass up gateways then throw my army away and reproduce instantly, off like 3 bases of course
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1) you can't support 10 gateways and double forge upgrades off 2 base
2) this build incorporates no tech, you can't secure a third with just gateway units against a competent zerg this means you will be forced to try and end the game early on
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Bronze is bronze for a reason man.
Even MC can't win with that mindset/strategy vs. a decent diamond/masters player.
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i think you might be a bit too good for bronze
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Pandabee, I think you completely miss the point. The idea is to not make units, it's to, as Ulfsark said, reinforce instantly. Just like Zerg. A zerg player drones as much as he can, expands a lot and queens pop Larva. Then instantly when Zerg sees an attack coming, he produces like 20 roaches, defends the attack and continues making Drones.
Of course I know I can't have nonstop production of all that.
And a176, you really think so?
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its like all bronze players go afk for couple seconds
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What I read: I play by macroing until I have a huge macro lead on my opponent
What I thought: This sounds like how you always play starcraft. (BW perspective here, I am aware that SC2 and especially some certain matchups have fewer macro games).
You seem to have a reasonable idea of what to do. If you want to go to the next level, here are a few suggestions:
1) You don't need that many gateways on two bases. You have that many because the way you are playing when an opponent attacks you usually have way too few forces and you need to make a lot at once. You should instead be using fewer gateways constantly, which will result in the same amount of resources being used (and since you saved a lot on gateway construction, you will actually have more resources at every point in the game) and a larger army at every point in the game. Learn how many gateways you can use off of one/two/three/four bases, and make that many, more when you're maxed (when you're maxed you want to be able to rebuild extremely quickly if you lose your entire army, plus you'll usually have the resources to do so).
2) Choose a timing to make a push, and optimize your unit count for that timing, while at the same time having enough to survive until then.
3) Always scout for hidden expansions. Even a single extra expansion can change the game dramatically. I've played games where I snuck a hidden expansion on my opponent, but I ended up losing because he did the same to me and I underestimated his army. Routinely use a probe or zealot to check up on every expansion.
4) When your units are just sitting there, unless you know that you'll need them to defend immediately, use them to put pressure on your opponent. Forcing them to make more units now means they can't spend as much on macro, which means fewer units later. Keep your units outside their base and pressure them. Plus, if they turn out to not have enough units to stop you (which I am pretty sure was the case several times in the game in the video), you can just win right there. You'll need to practice multitasking to get this to work well for you, but it's definitely worth it.
Speaking of multitasking...
5) Practice multitasking. You want to be producing probes, chronoboosting, producing units, expanding, scouting, harassing, et cetera all at once. To do this you'll need to learn to multitask. Make an effort to do two things at once, and you'll be amazed at how effective it is and you'll get used to multitasking. Going to attack? Load up a warp prism and make a drop at the same time! It's much easier to be on the offensive multitasking side than the defensive one, especially if your drop consists of DTs  Just look at Bisu if you don't believe me (yes, I am aware that that is in BW. I presume that at low levels DTs are just as effective in SC2 as they were in BW).
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The idea you stated is pretty much my pvt.
There's a small difference in mine. Ever since I saw Adelscott vs MVP in TSL, I've been playing pvt mass gateway units, and that combined with Tyler's double forge opening, I've found it to be so strong that when I see a terran being queued up, I know that I'm going to win, regardless of him being favoured or slightly favoured or whatever. I've only lost 2 pvts in memory in the past few weeks.
The main thing I think I'd take off your build is that you can't be overly greedy with taking expos because then terran can break you when he attacks because you just don't have enough stuff/upgrades won't be done in time.
Anddd I really, really hate validating knowledge by posting ranks, but these people shutting it down by saying, bronze is bronze and even MC can't make it work and you can't use just gateways are wrong. I'm master on SEA and NA.
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I'm going to pretend that you aren't bronze for a while.
Isn't this just a general greedy protoss strategy (not really your idea)? Fast expansions into high economy aggression/a very comforatble late game of some sort? As with all greedy builds, if your opponent scouts it and reacts well and does a timing attack where you have the 3rd going up but can't reap its benefits, then you are pretty much screwed. If you somehow are able to stop the timing attack, then obviously you are ahead, but it's kindof hard to do that when you don't have alot of units.
--end of pretense--
Being greedy is a pretty baller way to get out of bronze imo. 15 Nexus'ing (or whatever) your way out of bronze >>>> cheesing your way out. Although I reckon most of your opponents just don't know how to react/can't scout/can't macro/plain suck and eventually your macro >>> their macro.
BTW, if you have the chance to actually get an actual build of a pro or someone using a strategy like this, try to copy their timings/build order. Remember, a BO is just an optimization of a strategy. If you try to "feel your way" out, it probably won't be as optimized, and you are probably wasting your time. Pros might do variations that are safer/more refined.
EDIT: BW perspective here as well. I lose games to Protosses who double expand off 1 gateway. >< Also white-ra special tactics lololol
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Why do so many people keep saying that it's too many gateways? Are they even reading what I've said or did I really explain it that bad??
The idea I've had is that I make extra gateways so I can reinforce myself faster, which usually ends up winning me the game. And with having a probe in front of his base and an observer inside his base I can see when he's going to attack so I can react accordingly. Couple of days ago I played an 3 player FFA with this build against my friends. I had my 200/200 colossus ball against his 200/200 colossus ball. But because I had 17 gateways on 3 bases, I could instantly get 17 extra Zealots when I lost units. Which led me into a very close victory during that fight. Also, right after that battle was over the Third player attacked with a huge zerg force, but because I had so many gateways I could just hold it off barely and I ended up taking the game with having my 200/200 army back so fast. During that game I also had 3 Robo's constantly building Colossus.
But yeah, I know I'd easily be "fine" with less gateways, I could constantly produce units from X gateways and X robo's, but my plan is not to have a constant production of units, instead it is to have a sudden spur of units when it's needed.
I also know that I might have to move away from this kind of a build or modify it by a ton if I'm ever going to rank higher on the ladder, but I just want to play this kind of a build as best as I can until it starts being awful.
Anyway, thanks to everyone who's responded so far. You people have made some great points!
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On June 10 2011 16:04 BlueOrange wrote:
Why do so many people keep saying that it's too many gateways? Are they even reading what I've said?
The idea I've had is that I make extra gateways so I can reinforce myself faster, which usually ends up winning me the game. Couple of days ago I played an 3 player FFA with this build against my friends. I had my 200/200 colossus ball against his 200/200 colossus ball. But because I had 17 gateways on 3 bases, I could instantly get 17 extra Zealots when I lost units. Which led me into a very close victory during that fight. Also, right after that battle was over the Third player attacked with a huge zerg force, but because I had so many gateways I could just hold it off barely and I ended up taking the game with having my 200/200 army back so fast. During that game I also had 3 Robo's constantly building Colossus.
But yeah, I know I'd easily be "fine" with less gateways, I could constantly produce units from X gateways and X robo's, but my plan is not to have a constant production of units, instead it is to have a sudden spur of units when it's needed.
I also know that I might have to move away from this kind of a build or modify it by a ton if I'm ever going to rank higher on the ladder, but I just want to play this kind of a build as best as I can until it starts being awful.
Anyway, thanks to everyone who's responded so far. You people have made some great points!
Typical 3 base greedy economy aggression involves you having a 200/200 army when the Terran/Zerg has like, a much smaller army. As such, you should be constantly pumping units from your gateways as you make gateways. I mean, if 3 base can support 17 gateways, then sure, go for it. But put the extra gateways down after you max out. The thing about timings is that you have to make the most of them. If you can get to 200/200 faster than they can, but decide to not attack them (or, in your case, put down 17 gateways before making an army) and wait until they also have 200/200, then you've lost your advantage in macro and base count, imo.
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On June 10 2011 16:15 Nazza wrote:
Typical 3 base greedy economy aggression involves you having a 200/200 army when the Terran/Zerg has like, a much smaller army. As such, you should be constantly pumping units from your gateways as you make gateways. I mean, if 3 base can support 17 gateways, then sure, go for it. But put the extra gateways down after you max out. The thing about timings is that you have to make the most of them. If you can get to 200/200 faster than they can, but decide to not attack them (or, in your case, put down 17 gateways before making an army) and wait until they also have 200/200, then you've lost your advantage in macro and base count, imo.
Yes, obviously that would be smart but it's not the way I want to play.
I want to play passively, defending and getting a huge lead in economy instead of trying to max out as fast as possible. I scout to see what my enemy has, decide do I build units or more gateways. I try my best to keep upgrades rolling in as much as possible, and when I have enough gateways I'll jump from 100 to 200 in food and attack.
I don't like playing aggressive, and I don't like going for a maxed out army "as fast as possible."
I'd rather get a lot of excess minerals to build extra structures, get a ton of gas to get a lot of the gas heavy units early on, such as Sentries and High Templar, and then as I have the "insane" amount of extra gates I'll get to 200/200 in a few rounds of gates, then attack and reinforce as much as possible.
Also one of the reasons why I like this is that let's say I lose the battle. He has superior control of his army and demolishes my army. If I had a "normal" amount of gates I might have a harder time defending the incoming attack (supposing there is one) and I might even lose, but as I have a ton of extra gates I can build up my army back that much faster, so the defending will be easier.
And I don't play this game to "win". I play it to have fun. Of course if going 4gate or 3gate expand was fun I'd do that. I actually even started practicing protoss using 3gate expand build, but it was too boring.
I used to be really really awful at scouting, I actually didn't scout at all some time ago.
But now with this build I'm always scouting, if my scout probe dies I'll instantly send another one.
I also like how I need to react when I see something happen, if I see an attack coming and I have no units, I need to start building them as fast as possible. As opposed to a more standard build where you constantly make units so you have the defense ready already when the attack starts, and you only reinforce it.
So yeah, I enjoy playing with this build and I plan on continuing. I also plan on improving it and maybe modify it enough to make it actually something good. I know this build is greedy and kind of weak, but that's what refining and improving is for, right?
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On June 10 2011 15:28 BlueOrange wrote:
Pandabee, I think you completely miss the point. The idea is to not make units, it's to, as Ulfsark said, reinforce instantly. Just like Zerg. A zerg player drones as much as he can, expands a lot and queens pop Larva. Then instantly when Zerg sees an attack coming, he produces like 20 roaches, defends the attack and continues making Drones.
Of course I know I can't have nonstop production of all that.
And a176, you really think so?
Lol well here's the thing matey. if you're only using the gateways for your "reinforce instantly" style then when will you ever make units? if your macro is anywhere near decent you should not be able to produce off more than 8 at a time unless u stockpile mineral/gas and the only time u want to stockpile is either when u are saving up for something (ie 400 gas for colossus + thermal lance at once) or when u are maxed. this kind of style is something all protoss do.. .in Late game, not early-mid game because late game is when protoss has economy to support making a ton of gateways, 36 , 48, 50 however many u can afford its all good ! however in early mid game u want to have less structures and produce off them as constantly as possible to build up your army, and u are not taking something else into account
if u only use gateways to reinforce then zerg is free to expand, since u spend extra minerals on useless gateways zerg can take up a free hatch no problem.
so what im trying to say is... a reinforcement / mass gateway style is what u want to go for late game. in early-mid game u want to get away with few structures and get your tech/upgrades up so you can actually use that reinforcement/mass gw style in the late game where it belongs. only exception to this is where you're doing a gateway style that incorporates upgrades/twilight council tech such as tylers double forge pvt. but this style does not overadd gateways, it adds enough to be able to produce off them constantly and on top of that it adds in tech although it might not be colossus or HT (not right away anyway) it still gets the twilight council and upgrades. however gateway style vs zerg in early-mid game is only for all in push builds (1 base 4 gate, 2 base 6 gate).
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It's not so much aggression as it is making the natural decision. When you are 80 supply ahead of your opponent, it's a natural decision to attack, or "be aggressive". This is different from playing an aggressive style. Probably poor choice of words on my part (not even sure if it's even meant to be called "3 base aggression". 3 base and all-in are completely different things)
Your entire thought pattern confuses me OP. You say you want to have fun, but you are formulating a strategy to win the game (unless you are just playing to improve, and don't care about the actual wins itself, but care about winning). You ask for advice, but are state that "it's not how you want to play the game".
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http://www.mediafire.com/?dvssi449ca0zaq9
Here is me, a Diamond Toss, trying out the build against a Platnum Terran, I was pretty sloppy but do with it as you will. My thoughts while trying it out: stealing a gas might be helpful as this build does not fare too well against banshees without building mineral line cannons. Knowing you can instantly warp in units to defend expos makes it feel safer to expo more freely. I would advise against going collosus with this build as that detracts from the strengths of the build (mobility, ease of countering). Also I would advise against it on close positions. Hope that helps some.
I deviated slightly from the build in that I did not build sentries, that was mostly due to scouting the banshees and deciding to use the gas for more HT's instead, though in differant situation I may have built them instead.
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The reason zerg styles play as they do is because larvae are used for both fighting units and drones. That's the only reason why they want to try to minimize the amount of fighting units they have.
That obviously doesn't apply to protoss because they can build probes and units at the same time, so the "passive economic" style is pointless. Tech builds are already commonly utilized, such as 2forge ones.
I scout to see what my enemy has, decide do I build units or more gateways. I try my best to keep upgrades rolling in as much as possible, and when I have enough gateways I'll jump from 100 to 200 in food and attack.
Think about it: your "sudden building of units all at the same time" only puts units there that already would have been produced in normal macro. The difference is that your net army would be lower because you spent more money on gateways rather than units, and that you are actually slower in reinforcing because your cooldown is wasted bringing your army to where it should be normally, rather than adding more units on top of an already built one.
So that only leaves your idea of teching up, but more gateways don't help you do that, if anything they slow it down, that's simply called fast teching, where people find an optimal time where they can do so with a relatively small timing window of vulnerability/have sufficient units.
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It doesn't work because you can't power workers as fast as zerg does, even with chronoboost. The reason zerg plays the way they do is because of larva management, not because its some fancy way to do it.
Just take your bases safely, build units, and get out of bronze.
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On June 10 2011 17:09 StrangrDangr wrote:http://www.mediafire.com/?dvssi449ca0zaq9Here is me, a Diamond Toss, trying out the build against a Platnum Terran, I was pretty sloppy but do with it as you will. My thoughts while trying it out: stealing a gas might be helpful as this build does not fare too well against banshees without building mineral line cannons. Knowing you can instantly warp in units to defend expos makes it feel safer to expo more freely. I would advise against going collosus with this build as that detracts from the strengths of the build (mobility, ease of countering). Also I would advise against it on close positions. Hope that helps some. I deviated slightly from the build in that I did not build sentries, that was mostly due to scouting the banshees and deciding to use the gas for more HT's instead, though in differant situation I may have built them instead.
Oh my my my! I really appreciate that you used some of your time to play with this little idea of mine.
Also yes, the fact that you didn't go for sentries. I also like this build because you really don't only need to do one thing and stick with it. I like that you can either go mass stalker and get Templar later as you did, or you can tech up to Templar/colossi and mass sentries and Zealots, or then just mass gateways with no teching up.
Anyway, thanks again for using your time for this!
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On June 10 2011 17:27 Zlasher wrote:
It doesn't work because you can't power workers as fast as zerg does, even with chronoboost. The reason zerg plays the way they do is because of larva management, not because its some fancy way to do it.
Just take your bases safely, build units, and get out of bronze.
This. Zergs play like this because they have to choose between workers and army, as protoss you dont have to make this choice, since you can produce workers and units at the same time. This playstyle may be fun and may work in bronze (like basically anything), but in the end its not optimal, and if your goal is to move up and improve i dont think you should stick to it. 
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EPT
