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Like all good TLers I was watching TL Attack with Sheth yesterday and was quite interested in the SC2BW maps they played. The last time i played BW multiplayer was about 9-10 years ago and while i had fond memories of stomping my brother and a few other people on LAN parties, i didn't remember much else about it anymore... so i took the opportunity to play a few rounds of SC2BW, which weren't very successfull but reminded me of how annoying the 12-unit selection limit actually was.
I decided that i should compare it to BW, which i quickly downloaded from the iCCup website. I thought... well, i'm a Diamond player in SC2, shouldn't be too hard to play a little against the AI, try the new builds that came into existence long after i stopped playing BW...
I was a fool.
I decided on Terran as my first race and picked Protoss as opponent, read into the 1rax FE TvP build from liquipedia, executed it (though a little poorly) and got immedatly stomped by what felt like hundreds of zealots swarming into my base.
gg.
Game 2 i got the hang of basic macro (producing workers, units, etc.) again... just to get nearly stomped by zealots again. I microed a few vultures for my life and managed to barely hold it off and move out into a siege contain of the protoss base, after which i started practicing macro again... very unsuccessfully, as the 11k minerals at the end of the game proved :p
Well, with a maxed mech army i was easily able to crush the protoss defenses, so at least it wasn't too humiliating 
At least i learned a few things:
1. Units in BW are stupid - very, very stupid.
2. Moving two tanks through a choke by simply telling them to is impossible.
3. SCVs are actually extremely fast.
4. Macro is hard.
5. Zealots are OP :p
I plan on playing around a bit more, just for the nostaliga, but the horrible Unit AI makes it a very unpleasant experience. The lack of Auto-Mining or Multi-Building-Selection doesn't bother me much though, i still managed to be far oversaturated on 3 bases :p
It was a nice excursion into history, but i think in the long term i'll stick to SC2 where units are actually able to walk up a choke without taking half an hour to bounce of other units that try the same :p
  
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Is it weird that I like the bw unit ai better than the sc2 counterpart? I like that units will still try to find an available path to where you told them to move instead of perpetually walking into an obstacle if there is no direct bee-line to the destination. I guess both ai pathings seem to have their benefits, though.
The lack of Auto-Mining or Multi-Building-Selection doesn't bother me much though, i still managed to be far oversaturated on 3 bases
Lol say that again when you play against a decent opponent and not the AI.
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I'm sorry. I just started cracking up when you picked I read the words "I picked Terran".
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haha, you just need to block your choke, and make a siege tank firing at them, the zealots wont be able to attack any buildings because of stupid AI thing, they feel they are threatened by the siege tank.
anyway, as you said yourself, the AI are very stupid and clumsy, sometimes you could even siege a tank and it would explode!
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On May 30 2011 21:16 Morfildur wrote:
i'm a Diamond player in SC2
You should have no problem making into D+ at iccup. I'm a silver zerg in sc2 and D+ in iccup.
On May 30 2011 21:30 Nazza wrote:
I'm sorry. I just started cracking up when you picked I read the words "I picked Terran".
ROFL. Most SC2 -> BW switchs choose Terran as main race and they eventually learn what's up here. SC1 Terran is a real challenge in terms of mechanics.
mod edit: oops sorry don't know how i ended up messing up the format of this post. unintentional!
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Try playing with real human opponents, that's where the real fun is.
Though unit AI is dumb, its tolerable and sometimes in works in your favor. Especially on choke point defensive position. The pathing and the high ground advantage thingy are some of few things that made terrain and map in BW important. Adds more depth in tactics and strategy.
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So I reinstalled BW over the weekend and microing units is so damn satisfying. I feel like I've achieved something when I can finally get dragoons to get to the place I need them. I dunno, BW just seems more satisfying with the retarded AI to me
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On May 30 2011 22:11 Djagulingu wrote:You should have no problem making into D+ at iccup. I'm a silver zerg in sc2 and D+ in iccup. Show nested quote +On May 30 2011 21:30 Nazza wrote:
I'm sorry. I just started cracking up when you picked I read the words "I picked Terran". ROFL. Most SC2 -> BW switchs choose Terran as main race and they eventually learn what's up here. SC1 Terran is a real challenge in terms of mechanics.
I chose Terrans because i think they allow me to focus more on practicing macro since the strong defense (siege tanks/bunkers) keep me safe in the early game.
I don't think i'll play iCCup before i can reliably beat the AI. I know i could do that single-handedly 10 years ago, now i can't even do that and human players should be far superior, so i'll have to practice. I also have no idea about unit compositions, strategies, etc. apart from what liquipedia offers.
However, it's a moot point anyways as i will be too frustrated from units blocking each other long before i get the practice i would need :p
I don't know how anyone can like stupid units... i don't even want to imagine a marine/medic ball in SC1 stimming up a choke, it must be total chaos. No wonder 2 Lurkers are supposed to be a perfect defense against infinity (non-boxeresque) marines :p
On May 30 2011 22:21 ZzZBored wrote:
So I reinstalled BW over the weekend and microing units is so damn satisfying. I feel like I've achieved something when I can finally get dragoons to get to the place I need them. I dunno, BW just seems more satisfying with the retarded AI to me
I don't know... imagine Caesar Augustus standing on a battlefield, giving orders to his troops: "General Marc Aurelius flanks from the left and on the road, first everyone stop. Then the first soldier in the first column should move, starting with the left foot, followed immedatly by moving the right foot forward, then when he's there, the second soldier is allowed to move, ..., and then the last soldier can move down, then everyone charge, but make sure the other group in that area retreats first so you don't bounce into them"... It requires you to give a lot of pointless commands that take a lot of time...
Well, maybe i'll get used to it :p
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Haha good old getting trashed by the AI zealot rush ahaha.
And its 4pools. The AI 4pools like 1/4 of the time.
I didnt get one thing though. You said you had no problems without MBS and automining, but you said you had 11k minerals in the bank. did you macro get better as you played or ..?
Confused me, hook Iplaythings (me) up at ICCup for somegames if you feel like it =D
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On May 30 2011 22:34 Iplaythings wrote:
Haha good old getting trashed by the AI zealot rush ahaha.
And its 4pools. The AI 4pools like 1/4 of the time.
I didnt get one thing though. You said you had no problems without MBS and automining, but you said you had 11k minerals in the bank. did you macro get better as you played or ..?
Confused me, hook Iplaythings (me) up at ICCup for somegames if you feel like it =D
Well, i built a ton of workers and was on 4 bases, but i still only had 1 rax and 4 factories while i forgot to take additional gases on the other bases, which prevented me from building anything else than vultures and the occasional tanks. Also, when i was maxed i was probably around 3k, it took ages to push into the base as there were 2 chokepoints in between :p
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I had a similar experience after playing SC2BW. So I tried playing BW online with a friends account. I did quite well with the macro, since I had played other competitive rts games without MBS and automining is just a minor nuisance. Although I can see how the macro could be hard if you are trying to do anything else, but I just skipped the "doing stuff" part mostly until I got a reaver and a shuttle.
But god damn the control is hard. I was focusing super hard on keeping money low and trying to do some fancy reaver drops but my gateway ball kept growing way too large and I couldn't move it. So when I was trying to get my 4th base in a pvz (on some extremely narrow map with bridges all over the place) it probably took me a full minute just to move my gigantic ball of gateway units out of the way.
I eventually lost because hydras and mutas are imbalanced (why don't dragoons kill mutas, the damage stats are a lie!)... obviously through no fault of my own. And also because at a really tense moment I forgot about smartcasting and all my templars stormed a handful of hydras 
Was fun though, if a little frustrating.
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Getting 3 goons to go down a ramp in less than 5 minutes is like the most satisfying thing for me.
too bad it never happens
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+ Show Spoiler +On May 30 2011 21:16 Morfildur wrote:Like all good TLers I was watching TL Attack with Sheth yesterday and was quite interested in the SC2BW maps they played. The last time i played BW multiplayer was about 9-10 years ago and while i had fond memories of stomping my brother and a few other people on LAN parties, i didn't remember much else about it anymore... so i took the opportunity to play a few rounds of SC2BW, which weren't very successfull but reminded me of how annoying the 12-unit selection limit actually was. I decided that i should compare it to BW, which i quickly downloaded from the iCCup website. I thought... well, i'm a Diamond player in SC2, shouldn't be too hard to play a little against the AI, try the new builds that came into existence long after i stopped playing BW... I was a fool. I decided on Terran as my first race and picked Protoss as opponent, read into the 1rax FE TvP build from liquipedia, executed it (though a little poorly) and got immedatly stomped by what felt like hundreds of zealots swarming into my base. gg. Game 2 i got the hang of basic macro (producing workers, units, etc.) again... just to get nearly stomped by zealots again. I microed a few vultures for my life and managed to barely hold it off and move out into a siege contain of the protoss base, after which i started practicing macro again... very unsuccessfully, as the 11k minerals at the end of the game proved :p Well, with a maxed mech army i was easily able to crush the protoss defenses, so at least it wasn't too humiliating At least i learned a few things: 1. Units in BW are stupid - very, very stupid. 2. Moving two tanks through a choke by simply telling them to is impossible.3. SCVs are actually extremely fast. 4. Macro is hard. 5. Zealots are OP :p I plan on playing around a bit more, just for the nostaliga, but the horrible Unit AI makes it a very unpleasant experience. The lack of Auto-Mining or Multi-Building-Selection doesn't bother me much though, i still managed to be far oversaturated on 3 bases :p It was a nice excursion into history, but i think in the long term i'll stick to SC2 where units are actually able to walk up a choke without taking half an hour to bounce of other units that try the same :p
You probably won't like using dragoons then :o
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On May 30 2011 23:03 flodeskum wrote:I eventually lost because hydras and mutas are imbalanced (why don't dragoons kill mutas, the damage stats are a lie!)... obviously through no fault of my own. And also because at a really tense moment I forgot about smartcasting and all my templars stormed a handful of hydras Was fun though, if a little frustrating.
Dragoon damage is categorized as "explosive", which only does 1/2 damage against "small" units, so they only do 10 per shot unupgraded against Mutas.
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On May 30 2011 21:29 djcube wrote:
Is it weird that I like the bw unit ai better than the sc2 counterpart?
No. That auto-clumping feature makes all units looking like a levitating blob.
On May 30 2011 21:16 Morfildur wrote:
5. Zealots are OP :p
Cracklings are even more OP. They are free and have infinite DPS. So guess about they DPS / cost ratio :D
Enjoy you BW experience !
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On May 30 2011 21:16 Morfildur wrote:
2. Moving two tanks through a choke by simply telling them to is impossible. ROFL tanks are actually not bad for this. Try repeating the experiment with dragoons instead 
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On May 30 2011 22:27 Morfildur wrote:
I don't know how anyone can like stupid units... i don't even want to imagine a marine/medic ball in SC1 stimming up a choke, it must be total chaos. No wonder 2 Lurkers are supposed to be a perfect defense against infinity (non-boxeresque) marines :p
1- Get 2 workers down the ramp to build a hatchery at the nat when scouting probe-scv is at your main.
2- Hold position one of them at the ramp
3- Watch the probe-scv while building a hatchery
4- ???
5- Profit.
You'll instantly love the ai when this happens. But, there are cases like this that will help you go crazy.
1- Put a unit that is not hotkeyed to 1 at the choke
2- 1a2a3a4a to the end of the choke
3- Watch your units walk around the choke and discuss on how to execute that order
4- ???
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Zurich15362 Posts
On May 30 2011 22:11 Djagulingu wrote:You should have no problem making into D+ at iccup. I'm a silver zerg in sc2 and D+ in iccup
Haha what? How is this even possible? D+ compares to like Master league or at least high Diamond. But Silver? That is just wrong.
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intrigue
Washington, D.C9934 Posts
On May 30 2011 21:16 Morfildur wrote:
i'm a Diamond player in SC2
haha it's pretty funny finally seeing sc2 to bw rank translation predictions. honestly though i'd say even masters level sc2 players without experience will require months of work to hit D+, especially if they don't pick protoss.
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My 3rd game against the AI
I know there is a lot to improve before i play against human opponents, but does anyone notice something in particular? I have no idea what the best number for saturation of minerals and gas is (i think i remember from long ago 2.5 workers per mineral block and 3 on gas) and which unit composition i should move towards, what the best timing for detection is, etc.
Other things in noticed in BW:
- Maps feel smaller (or buildings are huge), i had problems finding spots for supply depots that did not block the unit pathing.
- The black fog is really annoying if you have no clue where the other bases are
- If you only move units of one type up a choke, it works better than a mixed group (probably because different speeds mess up the AI)
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EPT
