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Topic pretty much says it all, I'm currently ~950 master and have been for the last couple weeks. I'm at a point now where I'm starting to find the game more frustrating and annoying than fun. I used to think Starcraft was about brains, good strategic decision making as well as mechanics. As time goes on, I am slowly being proven wrong.
The catalyst for this post was a PvT I just played on Shakuras Plateau. Let me describe the game to you. I open up with a 2gate expo, he does a 1rax marauder expand.
I add 3 more gates and add twilight council, he adds 2 more rax (1 tech 1 reactor) and techs towards medivacs. Both of us just macro hard. I am ahead by 5-6 probes at all times. I immediately research charge when my tc is done, then add two forges and finally templar archives. He adds two engineering bays, and begins to pump medivacs from his reactor starport. Both of us are still on 2 base.
He runs up my nat choke and loses half his units between 3 forcefields and a bunch of zealots. Somehow I lost just as many minerals in zealots as he did in MM.
At 13 minutes this is what we have:
Me 102 supply, 56 probes, 3 archons 6 sentry, 9 zealot, 2 stalker. 7 gateways. 1/1 on the way just starting storm. Value of 1850/1475.
Him 108 Supply, 51 scv, 2 mule, 13 marauder 15 marine 3 medivac. Value of 2350/625.
He attacks up my nat choke again at around 14:30 right before storm is finished (I've been experimenting with making 2-4 archons as I get storm so that I'm not as vulnerable for that window before storm is done). I activate guardian shields, forcefield him in place (he can't run back down the choke) and my 1/1 chargelot/archon/sentry/stalker + 3 ht's without enough energy for storm engages him in close quarters.
I lose 6500 he loses 3400. I keep watching it over and over and even though he was slightly ahead in supply I fail to see how a bunch of guardian shielded chargelot/acrhon/sentry loses to marauder medivac in point blank range with decent surface area. I warp in more units and push him back, defending the attack but losing ~1800-1900 more resources than him. We both continue to pump upgrades.
We both start our expansions around 16 minutes. He has now added ghosts, my storm is done and I've added a robo so there are a few immortals in the mix. He is now ahead ~20 supply since he came out on top slightly and terran can mine faster off 2 base than toss.
He attacks into me again, eating two perfect storms on all of his units before he gets any emp's off. he micro's back, and is still cost effective somehow even after losing 4 medivacs to archon splash. At this point the units lost tab looks like 11400/9400.
I briefly have a unit advantage so I begin to push towards his 3rd, his reinforcements eventually clean me up. Units lost tab: 15000/12000.
He then immediately counters, I have no HT's with energy for storm left, and my chargelot/archon dies to his marauders, then he levels my 3rd nexus and the game ends.
In brood war when you attack into a fortified position, into units which are supposed to counter your own, and do so repeatedly against a player who is on even economic footing with equal upgrades YOU LOSE THE FUCKING GAME.
SC2 doesn't seem to be about skill or intelligence anymore. Even PvZ every other game consists of trying not to die to roach/ling all-ins.
At least pvp is getting better.
 
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of course its not about intelligence, but it is in mechanics
you didnt even post the replay, and judging from the way you post, youre probably pretty angry and biased, so in order for us to judge anything you have to provide us with a replay, im pretty sure you got owned in a regard you didnt notice
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Play Zerg for a week and come back.
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On May 19 2011 05:13 phfantunes wrote:
Play Zerg for a week and come back.
This, you want to be frustrated from a haphazard push? play vs T or P, fight a 200z vs 130p/t army, kill everything but like 20 supply, then lose because 20supply>50z supply if they are between hatcheries. And don't even get me started on P who turtle on 2 base then push at 200/200 at 20 min and beat 2 full supply max respawns.
Of course take this with a grain of salt, because no player is perfect.
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On May 19 2011 05:13 phfantunes wrote:
Play Zerg for a week and come back.
I also play zerg at the 900 masters level. If an idiot pushes into you and makes a bad decision. You usually just win.
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On May 19 2011 05:11 OutlaW- wrote:
of course its not about intelligence, but it is in mechanics
you didnt even post the replay, and judging from the way you post, youre probably pretty angry and biased, so in order for us to judge anything you have to provide us with a replay, im pretty sure you got owned in a regard you didnt notice
I made 4 cannons which didn't see use. (Its cheaper to make cannons that lose gate units and probes when you get dropped).
His +2 finished slightly before mine, right as he attacked.
He hit a timing where my templar had ~60 energy and storm was just finishing.
I made a couple micro mistakes where I lost an archon and a few chargelots.
I could have reinforced slightly faster with chargelots while pushing his 3rd.
These were enough to lose me the game. I'm not trying to say that terran is imba, or that I didn't make any mistakes and still lost. I'm just frustrated that people can get away with awful decision making and still come out on top. You shouldn't be able to attack into a shitty position repeatedly and get away with it. I don't remember a single situation in SC1 where someone could repeatedly attack into a choke point when their opponent had the correct counter unit composition and still come out on top. That is why I am frustrated, not because I lost.
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I felt this way for weeks back when I used to play Zerg. I always had this idea in my head that it was possible to improve your game and overcome any difficulty, but after a while a few problems simply began to seem insurmountable.
Being able to safely drone in close positions, for example. There is simply not enough time to react to an attack, so you are forced to over compensate with defense and a weaker economy. Being able to scout what cheese your opponent is doing was another. Idra has been bringing some attention to this recently, simply because it's easier to explain to people than more subtle problems.
Anyways I just decided that the game wasn't worth taking that seriously. I switched to random and just try to have more fun now. Maybe in a few months or years everything will be ironed out.
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On May 19 2011 05:33 jdseemoreglass wrote:
I felt this way for weeks back when I used to play Zerg. I always had this idea in my head that it was possible to improve your game and overcome any difficulty, but after a while a few problems simply began to seem insurmountable.
Being able to safely drone in close positions, for example. There is simply not enough time to react to an attack, so you are forced to over compensate with defense and a weaker economy. Being able to scout what cheese your opponent is doing was another. Idra has been bringing some attention to this recently, simply because it's easier to explain to people than more subtle problems.
Anyways I just decided that the game wasn't worth taking that seriously. I switched to random and just try to have more fun now. Maybe in a few months or years everything will be ironed out.
I hope so. I agree that zerg had alot of problems. I actually switched to protoss and found it alot less stressful in general, but that was when all of the maps where tiny and roaches only had 3 range etc. I find zerg is alot better now as far as playability goes. The larger maps and the few balance tweaks did wonders. I love the archon change in 1.3.3 and all, and I don't think pvt is imbalanced or anything, its just frustrating that there isn't huge consequences for terrans who make bad decisions.
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You play zerg and terran at 900 masters level, have 2400 posts yet you can't figure out that sc2 isn't BW or that you should post a replay?
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I feel that way sometimes, then I go back and ladder on iccup a bit to get my BW fix, they are different games yo u just gotta accept it  .
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Hyrule19029 Posts
Come play EVE
But seriously, it sounds like you got mad that he outplayed you with poor decision making that somehow hit perfect timings.
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On May 19 2011 05:45 tofucake wrote:Come play EVEBut seriously, it sounds like you got mad that he outplayed you with poor decision making that somehow hit perfect timings.
without a replay it sound exactly like that.
and 5-6 probes more than scv's is called being behind ^^
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the Dagon Knight4002 Posts
On May 19 2011 05:28 Wr3k wrote:
You shouldn't be able to attack into a shitty position repeatedly and get away with it.
I guess the biggest point to take away from this is that, if he was attacking into this position over and over and coming out ahead, then it clearly wasn't a shitty position for him to attack. He attacked it and continued costing you more money than himself... that sounds like he made the right decision.
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On May 19 2011 05:41 firexfred wrote:
You play zerg and terran at 900 masters level, have 2400 posts yet you can't figure out that sc2 isn't BW or that you should post a replay?
I know the reasons why I lost. If I was looking for help I would post in the strategy forums. At no point did I ask anyone to analyze my replay. I'm just venting frustration that running into a choke point vs zealot/sentry/archon with your marauders is somehow cost effective.
900+ protoss/zerg and 2400 posts taught me that the strategy forum is typically filled with bad advice and usually can't tell you anything you couldn't figure out with basic observation and reasoning. There is occasionally particularly insightful posts but most of it is idiots telling other idiots how to play. If I wanted you to analyze my replay I would have posted there. It's a blog for a reason. You think I want to pollute the strategy forum with content like this and contribute to the problem that makes it so useless? No.
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On May 19 2011 05:53 SirJolt wrote:Show nested quote +On May 19 2011 05:28 Wr3k wrote:
You shouldn't be able to attack into a shitty position repeatedly and get away with it. I guess the biggest point to take away from this is that, if he was attacking into this position over and over and coming out ahead, then it clearly wasn't a shitty position for him to attack. He attacked it and continued costing you more money than himself... that sounds like he made the right decision.
That's why I'm pissed off. You would think running marauders into an equal cost army of units that are supposed to counter them and then getting forcefielded there would be a bad decision. Usually I don't get super mad, but this shit was just unbelievable. /endrant.
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rushing tech with double forge obviously isn't going to pay off until you have +2/2 and a couple of storms at your disposal..
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41 Posts
You should post the replay of the game so we can try to help you.
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I'm only top silver but if you got some Void Rays the Marauders sure would have died!
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Be prepared for players worse than you just simply telling you what you should have done, even if you are right and the game seems to be currently a lot of people just making a unit combo then throwing it at the other person or doing an all-in at the majority of skill levels.
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On May 19 2011 06:08 Wr3k wrote:Show nested quote +On May 19 2011 05:41 firexfred wrote:
You play zerg and terran at 900 masters level, have 2400 posts yet you can't figure out that sc2 isn't BW or that you should post a replay? I know the reasons why I lost. If I was looking for help I would post in the strategy forums. At no point did I ask anyone to analyze my replay. I'm just venting frustration that running into a choke point vs zealot/sentry/archon with your marauders is somehow cost effective. 900+ protoss/zerg and 2400 posts taught me that the strategy forum is typically filled with bad advice and usually can't tell you anything you couldn't figure out with basic observation and reasoning. There is occasionally particularly insightful posts but most of it is idiots telling other idiots how to play. If I wanted you to analyze my replay I would have posted there. It's a blog for a reason. You think I want to pollute the strategy forum with content like this and contribute to the problem that makes it so useless? No.
Ah ok, so you just needed a couple friends with whom to talk. Should try to make that a bit more clear. We are all here for you buddy!
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For one you were already behind in macro. Was ahead by 5-6 probes? Who says that? You're a Protoss with chrono-boost, you always have more workers. Terran's mules >>>>>>>>>> 5-6 probes.
Some 30 year old guy with slower hands, playing zerg, just won the last GSL by "skill and intelligence."
Your problem is probably you've reached your skill cap and is getting frustrated facing better opponents. The highest I got to was #300 in NA, not enough to make grandmaster league. I play way less now, but I don't blame the game or imbalance.
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On May 19 2011 08:03 vnlegend wrote:
For one you were already behind in macro. Was ahead by 5-6 probes? Who says that? You're a Protoss with chrono-boost, you always have more workers. Terran's mules >>>>>>>>>> 5-6 probes.
Some 30 year old guy with slower hands, playing zerg, just won the last GSL by "skill and intelligence."
Your problem is probably you've reached your skill cap and is getting frustrated facing better opponents. The highest I got to was #300 in NA, not enough to make grandmaster league. I play way less now, but I don't blame the game or imbalance.
1) Nowhere in my post did I say something was imbalanced or that it was the games fault I lost. I merely said that its ridiculous how someone can a move marauders into units designed to counter them and be cost effective. My frustration is coming from the nature of the game design, I grow tired of how the majority of games consist of people blindly executing a build order regardless of what their opponent is doing and still having a good chance of winning. This really takes away from the level of enjoyment I experience.
2) Being ahead only 5-6 probes is quite typical in pvt if terran executes a strong macro build. Unless you use every single chrono on probes or terran uses an excessive amount of scans you will usually be slightly behind. You should know that since you are obviously so good. What am I supposed to do? Say that I was behind by 100 minerals per minute? Up 5-6 probes vs a 2 base terran describes exactly what I wanted it to, a slight but not significant econ disadvantage.
3) I fail to see how your rank is relevant or why I would give two shits about it. I've been as high as top 800 in the world within the last month, and was top 150 for almost the entire beta. Lately I give less of a fuck about my rank.
4) Did you watch the finals? My entire post was about how the game isn't fun anymore because people just throw units at eachother and all-in without being punished for attacking into fortified positions. Nestea is an amazing player and obviously outclassed his opponent mentally and mechanically, but the way he won certainly wasn't fun to watch for anyone, and I guarantee neither of those two players would have found those games to be enjoyable if they were ladder/practice matches. Spamming roach/ling into a protoss natural isn't exactly a show of brilliant strategic thinking. Inca tried to do more cerebral, strategic builds, and the consequence was swift defeat.
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On May 19 2011 05:13 phfantunes wrote:
Play Zerg for a week and come back.
You'll come back with a new found hatred for the game i promise you.
SC2 got like you described for me also, and after my final loss(i plummeted from a positive record to far into the negative) i called the game quits and stopped playing completely.
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On May 19 2011 08:31 arb wrote:You'll come back with a new found hatred for the game i promise you. SC2 got like you described for me also, and after my final loss(i plummeted from a positive record to far into the negative) i called the game quits and stopped playing completely.
Yeah, right about when terrans were making 10 reapers and killing roaches and queens with them while expanding I was hating zerg plenty. My hatred is old (I played zerg from beta > October). I never thought SC2 would become a game that I didn't find mentally stimulating, but lately it feels like its just blind mechanics & some luck.
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i used to play toss, why didn't you have colossi? i know you say you are trying that archon or HT thing, but even so, a colossus would have wrecked that ball.
It also seems that you used FFs to keep the T from getting back down the ramp? if you had 6 sentries, you could have forced the T's units into a reeeally comparatively small ball, about the size of a forcefield, at which point archons and storms would rape everything inside of that small space. You could have even kept them partially below the ramp, using the terrain to your advantage.
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How again does "I managed to put forcefields against his attacks" = he sucked balls at decision-making? Given his timing and slight advantages, they clearly were adequate. It's like saying that a Zerg 3 base ahead of a protoss throwing troops at the toss to constantly trade armies is "bad decision making" just because the toss managed to forcefield a certain position in one particular battle. It's all about big picture, and clearly given those circumstances, both macro and particular factors like upgrades and timing meant that big picture wise the terran did the moves that won the game.
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i feel that zerg is becoming op vs toss. i mean ling muta or spanishwa's style is just so hard to beat
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Isn't looking at the resources lost to gauge whether something is wrong with the game a horribly flawed way of looking at the game? Under your logic ZvP and ZvT is flawed as fuck because the Zerg is usually going to trade units at a monetary loss unless the other guy makes a huge blunder.
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So i never post in blogs but someone should point this out to you
chargelots are nice and all but without any AOE/burst damage you won't break marauders with only chargelots when he has mass medivac.
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Foresight of this is why I didn't bother buying SC2 (at least until the game is complete and even then I'll have to think about it) Alas, you're always welcome in ICCup,
When I lose a game in a stupid manner, whether it was my blunder or some ridiculous mishap, I usually just BBS the next guy. Makes me feel better about things =]
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On May 19 2011 09:12 Xsoild wrote:
i feel that zerg is becoming op vs toss. i mean ling muta or spanishwa's style is just so hard to beat
Spanishwa "style" is a completely defensive opening with absolutely no agressive capability until the 7 or 8 minute make. If you scout that a zerg doesn't have gas by a supply count of 25 or 30ish, then just FE or double expand. He isn't going to attack you with slow lings or drones. Ling muta isn't viable unless the P loses a lot early game and has a really low gateway unit count (like what happened at the end of the last gsl with nestea vs inca.
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On May 19 2011 08:33 Wr3k wrote:Show nested quote +On May 19 2011 08:31 arb wrote:On May 19 2011 05:13 phfantunes wrote:
Play Zerg for a week and come back. You'll come back with a new found hatred for the game i promise you. SC2 got like you described for me also, and after my final loss(i plummeted from a positive record to far into the negative) i called the game quits and stopped playing completely. Yeah, right about when terrans were making 10 reapers and killing roaches and queens with them while expanding I was hating zerg plenty. My hatred is old (I played zerg from beta > October). I never thought SC2 would become a game that I didn't find mentally stimulating, but lately it feels like its just blind mechanics & some luck.
Luck=getting ghosts to counter archons/templars and massing medivacs since you didn't make any colossi?
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This isn't BW.
I don't know if you heard, but there are these things called MULEs and Chrono Boost.
Protoss should be ahead in probes. So you were actually even, maybe even behind, in economy.
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Maybe Feedback the medivacs? Since you already were on templar tech.
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This doesn't read as getting tired of the game as much as getting frustrated at losing.
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If your tired and/or frustrated take a break from the game. Simple as that.
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On May 19 2011 08:22 Wr3k wrote:Show nested quote +On May 19 2011 08:03 vnlegend wrote:
For one you were already behind in macro. Was ahead by 5-6 probes? Who says that? You're a Protoss with chrono-boost, you always have more workers. Terran's mules >>>>>>>>>> 5-6 probes.
Some 30 year old guy with slower hands, playing zerg, just won the last GSL by "skill and intelligence."
Your problem is probably you've reached your skill cap and is getting frustrated facing better opponents. The highest I got to was #300 in NA, not enough to make grandmaster league. I play way less now, but I don't blame the game or imbalance. (...snip...) 4) Did you watch the finals? My entire post was about how the game isn't fun anymore because people just throw units at eachother and all-in without being punished for attacking into fortified positions. Nestea is an amazing player and obviously outclassed his opponent mentally and mechanically, but the way he won certainly wasn't fun to watch for anyone, and I guarantee neither of those two players would have found those games to be enjoyable if they were ladder/practice matches. Spamming roach/ling into a protoss natural isn't exactly a show of brilliant strategic thinking. Inca tried to do more cerebral, strategic builds, and the consequence was swift defeat.
Inca did the same fast DT build 3 times in a row and got punished for it each time. It was horrible play by him and in no way cerebral or strategic.
The GSL is imho actually the worst league to watch as most games i've seen have been 2 base plays. Foreign leagues might have players with worse mechanics, but they are by far more entertaining than 90% of the GSL matches (including the finals). Koreans seem to rely on some very well trained timings and they seem to fall apart if it doesn't work and they have to adapt. Of course players like Boxer and NaDa are exceptions, but they probably have more experience with BW/SC2 than any other SC2 pro.
I understand that you are frustrated that your army got beaten when he attacked up the choke, but actually your army was extremely weak. You were 11 Army supply behind, you had worse upgrades and the only real damage came primarily from units with very low range: 3 archons and 9 zealots (+2 stalkers, but those don't make much of a difference), that army is by far not enough to beat that amount of MMM without a good flank. Sentries have horrible DPS, half the zealots are dead before they get in range - even with guardian shied - and the archons and stalkers are too few to make a difference, so to me it's quite obvious that you would lose more than him.
Starcraft 2 is different to BW, you can't just play the same way and hope to win. It is a good game if you play the way it is designed instead of trying to force the BW style on the different game design.
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I started playing BW for this exact reason (read: I'm not as good as you - mid masters) but I decided that playing BW would help my skill rather than hinder it, but perhaps when I were to come back to star 2 everything would have developed more, new strategies, etc.
Until then i'll just be watching Pro games and adding to liquipedia to keep my knowledge up 
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Why would you morph archons instead of letting your first 6 HT's farm energy... Sounds pretty :"awful decision making skills" to me., Should take your own advice broskinator!!!
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On May 19 2011 18:04 Vlare wrote:
Why would you morph archons instead of letting your first 6 HT's farm energy... Sounds pretty :"awful decision making skills" to me., Should take your own advice broskinator!!!
An excellent point, brosylationskeetski.
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None of zealot, sentry or archon counters marauders. Even more, due to the range differences and the worthlessness of sentries as dps you might as well ignore the choke, he could probably have marauders in 3-4 rows and still have them all hit your entire army. You killed yourself on the first push cause you cut his retreat instead of cutting the amount of units he could attack with. You thought choke means defender advantage by default but a choke is not a defensive advantage, it's a means of reducing the attack surface and it's your job to take advantage of it (not with melee and range 3 units lol).
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EPT
