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Also i bet that 1 year after the release of SC:BW the game was as it is now :O
No, BW was always fun. Especially in the beginning, BW was about a lot of contains and trying to keep the opponent stuck in his base and humiliate him. SC2 doesn't really have any of that flare or style right now. Maybe that's because of the player pool being full of uninteresting people, or maybe it's a flaw in the game. We saw Mondragon trying to be creative in SC2 to some success, but then he met a Protoss who sat in his base and macroed until he made one big push and ended the game after basically only poking Mondragon a little for the 20 minutes prior... So if interesting players can't succeed in SC2, then I guess SC2 is gonna be a boring game  It's really not fun to see someone just move out with a ball and cross their fingers that they're gonna win the big engagement... Where's the tension or drama?
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My answer would be to make sentries more difficult to get early in the game (put them higher in the tech tree) because it is really these that allow P to defend early game with almost no units. There is a strong argument to say that Z and T just haven't worked out how to deal with it yet, but this style of P play has been around quite a long time now and I don't see anyone with a good answer.
In the mid/late game I think T should be using more ghosts to combat Colossi death ball, but Z needs Hive tech in order to battle head on. Clearly if Z has Broodlords or Ultras the deathball isn't so scary, but it's just getting them that is the issue.
It sure is frustrating to play Z against this.
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Netherlands6142 Posts
On May 18 2011 22:49 mr_tolkien wrote:Show nested quote +On May 18 2011 22:44 Pholon wrote:
Yes.. and presenting dumb statements (ones that for example completely disregard what your opponent is doing) as if they were facts is exactly what I'm criticizing the OP for.
The main decision making problems involved with Toss are «will this attack kill me ?» + «can I kill him NOW ?». Knowing you'll have a few observers if you go Colossi, you'll be able to answer this and forbid stupidities that could win if you decide to sleep on your keyboard. OF COURSE do you have to think a little bit while playing, as I said in my previous dead, I didn't take brain dead people into account. So please stop stating random things just to derail the thread, thank you.
If you assume a premise that is wrong in order to make a statement, I don't think that addressing and criticizing said premises can be considered "derailing" since the statements stemming from it are pretty hard to take serious or comprehensively debate about.
You call me a troll and I don't appreciate that - I've said nothing that is untrue in order to make you tilt and to add to this I will formulate my full an honest opinion for you: I think you have no idea what you're on about. From the really ill-formulated statements like "DTs ? Once repelled, you won't have enough of an army not to die." and "FFs [negate] any opponent micro possibility" I'm getting the feeling that you have a lot of lacking game sense. This is not an accusation, we're all still learning about SC2, I see you like Day9 which is excellent and you're probably improving a lot still and I'm sorry if it hampers your ability to fully enjoy StarCraft. Plus maybe you just got unlucky with the games you've casted. However the whole situation remind me too irking much of that one hour long TvT (Sarens vs Goody? on Lost Temple) that at one point the casters gave up on cause not enough shit was exploding. I felt the game was v. entertaining for obvious reasons but 90% of the community didn't which I thought was weird and probably, again, coming from a lack of understanding of the game. To furthermore add to my opinion I actually agree with you a lot in that SC2 can be boring to watch, it's for a whole different number of reasons though.
Anyway, what I'd really like you to do is just look at your OP and spot the number of occurrences where you go "THIS is the case, THIS is fact, THIS is what happens ALL THE TIME". It really takes away from the point you're trying to make if you only go "build x is not viable period", "Protoss HAS to do X period". Presenting "facts" as you do I'd only allow from a very select number of people. On top of that, why don't you talk about your experience as a caster rather than trying to find faults in the game itself. Saying "Toss, as of now, is killing SC2." is such a weird thing to say. Did you not watch Thorzain vs Naniwa?
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On May 18 2011 23:23 deathly rat wrote:
If you assume a premise that is wrong in order to make a statement, I don't think that addressing and criticizing said premises can be considered "derailing" since the statements stemming from it are pretty hard to take serious or comprehensively debate about.
You call me a troll and I don't appreciate that - I've said nothing that is untrue in order to make you tilt and to add to this I will formulate my full an honest opinion for you: I think you have no idea what you're on about. From the really ill-formulated statements like "DTs ? Once repelled, you won't have enough of an army not to die." and "FFs [negate] any opponent micro possibility" I'm getting the feeling that you have a lot of lacking game sense. This is not an accusation, we're all still learning about SC2, I see you like Day9 which is excellent and you're probably improving a lot still and I'm sorry if it hampers your ability to fully enjoy StarCraft. Plus maybe you just got unlucky with the games you've casted. However the whole situation remind me too irking much of that one hour long TvT (Sarens vs Goody? on Lost Temple) that at one point the casters gave up on cause not enough shit was exploding. I felt the game was v. entertaining for obvious reasons but 90% of the community didn't which I thought was weird and probably, again, coming from a lack of understanding of the game. To furthermore add to my opinion I actually agree with you a lot in that SC2 can be boring to watch, it's for a whole different number of reasons though.
Anyway, what I'd really like you to do is just look at your OP and spot the number of occurrences where you go "THIS is the case, THIS is fact, THIS is what happens ALL THE TIME". It really takes away from the point you're trying to make if you only go "build x is not viable period", "Protoss HAS to do X period". Presenting "facts" as you do I'd only allow from a very select number of people. On top of that, why don't you talk about your experience as a caster rather than trying to find faults in the game itself. Saying "Toss, as of now, is killing SC2." is such a weird thing to say. Did you not watch Thorzain vs Naniwa?
You're not «adressing and criticizing» but rather «turning into derision», with fallacious examples, what I wrote.
"DTs ? Once repelled, you won't have enough of an army not to die." is true 90% of the time, and if you go DTs really late, after having a good army, well, we went further than the 15 minutes mark.
"FFs [negate] any opponent micro possibility", same, it MAINLY is true. I can add «most of the time» and «in general» to all my sentences, but that's just implied.
And like I said, you quoted me well, «Toss, as of now, is killing SC2». Please note the use of the word «now». I didn't say this is over, and that SC2 will forever suck when a Toss is in the match up. SC2 WILL get patched and WILL have add-ons (and that's facts, sorry to hurt your sensibility here). It will change anyway. But RIGHT NOW, the Toss race is making the game much less interesting than what it could be if it was well thought.
As for your last sentence, yes, I did watch the matches, and admired the struggle that Thorzain had to make to win while Naniwa was just going slooooooooowly toward very strong pushs each game (with different timings each time ofc). Thorzain made the games interesting. Not Naniwa.
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Netherlands45349 Posts
If you think Starcraft2 right now is not entertaining enough because there is not alot going on in Protoss matches(which is partly true I suppose) you can lay off the Protoss matches for a while and watch Brood War for entertainment.
All you can do really is wait till SC2 becomes entertaining for you.
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On May 18 2011 23:16 mr_tolkien wrote:Show nested quote +On May 18 2011 23:12 zocktol wrote:On May 18 2011 23:10 mr_tolkien wrote:On May 18 2011 23:04 zocktol wrote:On May 18 2011 22:49 mr_tolkien wrote:
It's not QQ or anything, it's just a fact I see after commentating 200+ matches and playing random for 1 month.
I'm back to Z because I LIKE the tactical possibilities, tech switches, and mind game you can do, as well as the heavy micro/multitask builds you can play.
Concerning Adel VS MVP (generally speaking, Tyler style), even though he didn't do any Colossi, it's the same line of thought. I'm not whining about Colossi, but about the fact that a SUPER passive gameplan even exists as Toss. Be it with Colossi, upgraded gates, or Templars, the Toss player can nearly all the time «not do anything» and still win.
First of all i think that Adel did that stuff since the Beta, at least from comments i heard from Day[9]. What you are doing is arguing, that the play style of the Protoss is boring, because it is in fact tailored towards the playstyle of the opponent. Of course Adel has to defend and sit back, if MVP is constantly dropping him. If he would try to be aggressive before he achieved the uprgrade advantage he would just get mauled and loose. I would like to compare it to running into a chainsaw, if you attack with Gateway Units into Bio with Stim and Medivacs. Also most Zergs are playing super passive, especially in ZvT, how can you like that? Your last phrase really shows you don't get what I'm talking about. If muta harass + map control fight is «not doing anything», we clearly don't share the same values. Whereas Adel VS MVP was pure passiveness. Had MVP expanded earlier, he would have too. He wasn't gearing up, at any time, to be the active player in the game, and didn't NEED to. So if i make DTs and sent them after i have taken my natural its cool? You're talking about the Inca build ? The one with which he lost 0-4 to Nestea because it just outright sucked ? (and it's even worst VS Terran)
Well i could get a Warp Prism for 200 and add 4 Zealots for 400 and then do hopefully enough Damage so that i get the 600 out of it because it is rather unlikely, that the Warp Prism will survive, especially against Terran. Yeah sounds viable compared to Mutas who are the 2nd fastest Unit in the game that can fly.
And Warping in Units with a Warp Prism when its just meant for Harrasment is just stupid cause you war in Units that are supposed to die. I am also not talking about the Inca build but just getting DTs at some point in the game. Things like the Bisu Build form SC:BW are not viable in SC2 cause the tech tree to get to DTs is way too long and especially too expensive.
Protoss is designed this way, to be a more passive race, cause the Gateway units are not cost efficient in small numbers, compared to Terran, who are nearly dependend on Drops.
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[QUOTE]On May 18 2011 22:35 mr_tolkien wrote:
[QUOTE]On May 18 2011 22:29 dafnay wrote:
I completely disagree with toss micro...
Maybe 3 monthes ago in pvz you only had to FF and a-move your stalker/coloss army , I cant deny that , but nowadays lots of zergs are playing with drop banes/mass cracklings/infestors into some broodlords or ultras , when you face such army you cant just FF and move , when 10000 cracklings with OV full of banelings are running into your army you have to blink back / FF / guardian shield / kite ovies / drop some storms and nulify the infestors with your HT's , where as the zerg only had to a move lings ( auto sorround ofc ) and drop from ovies ...
But hey we are still in the "protoss op" tendecy , sad sad[/QUOTE]
Well, I don't see how mass cracklings is not «FFs and a move». And I don't understand why you're taking about Guardian Shield given the examples you're giving, GS is VS ranged units...
For banes, you need to back you army once you FFd as EVERYTHING is faster than a flying overlord in your army, then turn back, and MAYBE split, then you're good to go kill as the Zerg invested so much in this.
For infestors, as well, just putting Colossi ahead is enough 90% of the time.
This is not what I call interesting micro. You're comparing that to LINGS vs COLOSSI, saying it's «auto surround», I don't even understand if you're serious or not.
From my experience (mid master) coloss is the worst answer to lings/infestator , especially with that paralyse ability , you really need HT's to negate them and a prefect blink micro to survive with stalkers.
Yeah you can blink into infestators and snipe them , just hope he doesnt have any lings near them to punish you for that..
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On May 18 2011 23:23 Chef wrote:Show nested quote +Also i bet that 1 year after the release of SC:BW the game was as it is now :O No, BW was always fun. Especially in the beginning, BW was about a lot of contains and trying to keep the opponent stuck in his base and humiliate him. SC2 doesn't really have any of that flare or style right now. Maybe that's because of the player pool being full of uninteresting people, or maybe it's a flaw in the game. We saw Mondragon trying to be creative in SC2 to some success, but then he met a Protoss who sat in his base and macroed until he made one big push and ended the game after basically only poking Mondragon a little for the 20 minutes prior... So if interesting players can't succeed in SC2, then I guess SC2 is gonna be a boring game It's really not fun to see someone just move out with a ball and cross their fingers that they're gonna win the big engagement... Where's the tension or drama?
Even if Z had a Lurker-like unit that they could contain P with (a la BW), you could just snipe the Lurkers with the crazy range on the Collosus.
Still, there's two more expansions, with maybe, 2 or 3 new zerg units to be included, leading to many other new unit combinations and tactics. And if Blizzard can pump more money into the e-sports side of the game, we'll see the better BW pros switch over.
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On May 18 2011 23:32 dafnay wrote:
From my experience (mid master) coloss is the worst answer to lings/infestator , especially with that paralyse ability , you really need HT's to negate them and a prefect blink micro to survive with stalkers.
Yeah you can blink into infestators and snipe them , just hope he doesnt have any lings near them to punish you for that..
Wait. Where are your forcefields ? That's step 1, please don't skip it.
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On May 18 2011 22:34 Glaven wrote:
I hate to enter balance discussions but I have to say from a design and entertainment perspective, Protoss are just boring. I can seriously not think of a single time I saw a protoss player do something and I went "wow" (I'll gladly be proven wrong). There's nothing entertaining about watching timing attacks or 200/200 armies roll out/remax/repeat. It's gotten to the point where any game with a protoss I can hardly be bothered to watch.
Mana vs Naama game 3 at dreamhack winter. That was MONTHS ago, and yet he showed an awesome play while still using collosus back before people used FFs to the capability that they are used now. This game was part of one of the most epic series ever, and is what for the first time made me seriously see SC2 as potentially the one of the greatest e-sports of all time.
http://blip.tv/day9tv/mana-p-vs-naama-t-game-3-grand-finals-dreamhack-steelseries-tournament-4463215
Or how about cruncher vs idra game three when he trapped all the roaches on top of each other?
Or how about that Losira game mentioned in the posts above me.
Or how about MC's feedbacks on Thorzain's ghosts during the TSL?
Enough of that. That was in 1 minute of thought.
I see the point of this thread, and i agree to some extent that Protoss isn't as impressive to the casual observer, but some of the less flashy things that happen can be SERIOUSLY impressive and clever. Such as Hasu's tendency to not max immediately so he can warp in as needed. Stuff like that. There is a lot of depth the this game, and i think it is underestimated.
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I don't agree with the OP, I feel that its up to the Terrans and Zergs to get the Protoss army to move, divide up to defend drops or harrass and choose smaller engagements. 1 Deathball can't be everywhere.
Does it cause boring games right now the build a deathball strat is popular right now? Yes it can, but is it breaking the game? Hardly.
There were some very good changes that went into the last patch and I think they're going to slowly change the matchups. Particular TvP with the ghost change / Archon.
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Netherlands45349 Posts
On May 18 2011 23:43 Surili wrote:Show nested quote +On May 18 2011 22:34 Glaven wrote:
I hate to enter balance discussions but I have to say from a design and entertainment perspective, Protoss are just boring. I can seriously not think of a single time I saw a protoss player do something and I went "wow" (I'll gladly be proven wrong). There's nothing entertaining about watching timing attacks or 200/200 armies roll out/remax/repeat. It's gotten to the point where any game with a protoss I can hardly be bothered to watch. Mana vs Naama game 3 at dreamhack winter. That was MONTHS ago, and yet he showed an awesome play while still using collosus back before people used FFs to the capability that they are used now. This game was part of one of the most epic series ever, and is what for the first time made me seriously see SC2 as potentially the one of the greatest e-sports of all time. http://blip.tv/day9tv/mana-p-vs-naama-t-game-3-grand-finals-dreamhack-steelseries-tournament-4463215Or how about cruncher vs idra game three when he trapped all the roaches on top of each other? Or how about that Losira game mentioned in the posts above me. Or how about MC's feedbacks on Thorzain's ghosts during the TSL?Enough of that. That was in 1 minute of thought. I see the point of this thread, and i agree to some extent that Protoss isn't as impressive to the casual observer, but some of the less flashy things that happen can be SERIOUSLY impressive and clever. Such as Hasu's tendency to not max immediately so he can warp in as needed. Stuff like that. There is a lot of depth the this game, and i think it is underestimated.
I don't know about the others, but didn't MC just spam F(feedback) on the minimap and killed the ghosts like that?
Either way case in point, Starcraft 2 is not amazing micro right now, if you want that, go watch BW.
You watch SC2 for decision making and strategy, not micro, the game is not yet devolped or evolved enough for that yet.
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Oh please, zerg requires close to zero micro compared to the other races.
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On May 19 2011 00:06 stilez wrote:
Oh please, zerg requires close to zero micro compared to the other races.
This is typically the type of stupid and uneducated comment that should stay out of such a thread. Thank you.
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On May 18 2011 22:49 mr_tolkien wrote:Show nested quote +On May 18 2011 22:45 SirJolt wrote:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but surely for this to happen, someone has to have fucked up on the way to that 20 minute mark? No. If the Toss wants the game to go to the 15 minutes mark + isn't all in'd off one base, he can force it.
+ Show Spoiler [GSTL spoiler] +
You might wanna go and tell that oGsMC he would be very interested to hear how he could have dragged that game against DRG out any longer, except by his terribad GG timing
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On May 19 2011 00:30 Ojahh wrote:Show nested quote +On May 18 2011 22:49 mr_tolkien wrote:On May 18 2011 22:45 SirJolt wrote:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but surely for this to happen, someone has to have fucked up on the way to that 20 minute mark? No. If the Toss wants the game to go to the 15 minutes mark + isn't all in'd off one base, he can force it. + Show Spoiler [GSTL spoiler] +
You might wanna go and tell that oGsMC he would be very interested to hear how he could have dragged that game against DRG out any longer, except by his terribad GG timing
+ Show Spoiler +Well, not opening Gate Nexus Cyber Stargate should be a good start.
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On May 19 2011 00:06 stilez wrote:
Oh please, zerg requires close to zero micro compared to the other races.
Right, you must be one of the guys who think zerglings "auto-surround" marines and mutas are just another a-move unit.
Regarding the OP, I have to agree with the fact that most Protoss players are not that entertaining to watch, but I think it's a mistake to compare Protoss to Zerg or Terran.
Protoss is a slow race, that's the way they are meant to be played. Therefore, Protoss metagame is much more interesting that Zerg's or Terran's since the player has to capitalize on every mistake his opponent makes ... or to go 4 gate.
I think the Protoss playstyle is very close to Terran mech play: resist, build a massive army, attack, ???, PROFIT !
I wish Blizzard tunes up the Protoss race in order to enable other playstyles.
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The problem is that protoss almost needs colossus. Marauder marine in tvp is so effective that its very hard for a gateway army to beat it. In this scenario the protoss needs have better micro than the terran who merely has to kite. Fighting terran tier 1 with protoss tier 1 means protoss needs to have excellent army positioning, perfect composition and very nice force fields. It's not cost-effective. And then in pvz roaches are so cost effective against gateway units that again, it becomes difficult to win with pure gateway units. Not saying its not possible, but take away collosus and gateway units will need a buff otherwise it'll just be protoss players complaining that terran and zergs just have to 1A with their marauder / marine / roach armies to beat a protoss army. High templars which are very high tier are not as effective as other high tier units from the other races.
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On May 19 2011 01:02 Xyik wrote:
The problem is that protoss almost needs colossus. Marauder marine in tvp is so effective that its very hard for a gateway army to beat it. In this scenario the protoss needs have better micro than the terran who merely has to kite. Fighting terran tier 1 with protoss tier 1 means protoss needs to have excellent army positioning, perfect composition and very nice force fields. It's not cost-effective. And then in pvz roaches are so cost effective against gateway units that again, it becomes difficult to win with pure gateway units. Not saying its not possible, but take away collosus and gateway units will need a buff otherwise it'll just be protoss players complaining that terran and zergs just have to 1A with their marauder / marine / roach armies to beat a protoss army. High templars which are very high tier are not as effective as other high tier units from the other races.
I'm not saying it's the players fault. It's the game design team fault. Players are given a game, they play it, therefore they need to use Colossi.
But the Toss race could have been made with «another» Colossus. Maybe a much slower one, which requires micro to be used effectively, which won't change anything or near to balance. (read : REAVER).
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I as protoss in 1v1 Ladder. Often I enjoy playing the defensive role and Getting upgrades, macro, bases, cannons.
Sure I agree Protoss can be "overly defensive" and not really want to move out.
But I think that fits well in the 3 race setup.
Zerg are soppose to be Aggresive. And Terran are soppose to be sneaky.
The only issue I have with this post.
Protoss can easily lose a Game by getting agressive.
Many times I tried countering with a 130-140 food army after a big battle. in the End, I lost the game and it felt like I should have just remained at home and kept upgrading remaxing.
In sc1, protoss had amazing harass options with the reaver, arbiter.
But basically in sc2 Currently, no unit fills that role of "Harrass Tool"
Dts do Okay, but are kind of a throw away unit. in Low numbers would only get a few kills unless unchecked for way too long. Cost efficiency very minimal and very situational.
Pheonix is alright. But if you invest into that unit, it has to be early game. Or multiple base situation to kill a few scvs/drones at a new expansion.
The reaver could clean out expansions, easily take down buildings. the Arbiter was like several drop ships combined with cloacking.
I don't think Protoss is Boring. But I do agree they are very linear in unit composition.
The Colossus is very critical unit in any maxed out Army. That being said, the playstyle of colossus is slowly Mass until the battle happens.
Back in sc1, there was no 1 unit which was dominant factor of your army.
I personally think the colossus is not imbalanced.
My Hopes are with the coming expansion, extra upgrades extra units will diversify the gameplay significantly.
I really miss Carriers being powerful. That was my favorite Protoss Strategy.
Although, Protoss all on the player to entertain. Playing "safe" is favorable for victory.
But in the early game you can see many many different Strategies which are tailored to your opponent.
For example, I have many early game builds which are very micro intensive and basically keep my opponent in his base worried about taking damage.
The Blink Stalker is extremely fun. You can avoid ramps and attack structures undefended and retreat at your advantage. But hey I like to have fun.
Against Zerg Mostly, i Enjoy the defensive macro game. Depending on the map.
Although if I scout an extra early third base I go right into 7 gate pressure.
But then Again versus Terran. I do a Void Ray 3 gate 1 base attack. I used to expand when pressuring. But I realized 95% of the games My stargate goes unscouted and I get a GG with the 4 void ray push.
Protoss is very user based. Look at Naniwa, he is extremely interesting to watch because of his early game pressure builds. HuK was a star because of his amazing probe harass. It's all user based. Anyone can play Turtle toss, which then it falls on his opponent to created pressure and "exitment"
If you don't want to pressure a protoss then be prepared to defend his 200/200 push.
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EPT
