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But entertainment is not !
I'm just writing a quick blog about SC2 and more precisely Protoss in this game.
For those who don't know me, I'm a French caster, casting in English once a week, so I value entertainment even more than casual gamers turning their 360 on. Plain games kills my business !
Therefore, I'd like to whine a little bit about Protoss, relating to this.
What is the problem ? Toss can do PURE macro for 15-20 minutes before actually moving out and win.
The 2 other races can also turtle and play pure defensive, but it will 90% of the time be in preparation for harass (drops/mutas), and, more important, if they chose to do so, they CAN'T move out, whereas Toss has the famous «mobile siege unit» + the «no micro please unit», namely, the Colossus and the Sentry, making a macro Toss able to push very early with little to no risk.
This is not a balance issue. Zergs can all in when the Toss army is in the making, or put some heavy muta pressure, Terrans can drop and expand like mad men... But Toss can perfectly sit back, stick to his game plan, wait a little bit, and push.
This creates really boring matches, be it on the ladder, in tournaments... And it sucks.
Toss, as of now, is killing SC2.
So, why is it this way ?
Well, the Toss army is so powerful it would be utterly stupid not to use it to its maximum efficiency. And Toss harass is so bad it's a gamble to use it, as you don't NEED it (except air vZ, but that's just because PvZ is flawed a bit deeper than just «entertainment problems»).
Warp prism ? Taking on precious colossi.
DTs ? Once repelled, you won't have enough of an army not to die.
Surprise warp ins with hidden pylons ? REALLY hard to make it work.
Air ? Except vZ (as v air Z is quite bad VS Toss), too much of an investment.
Therefore, what could be done ?
To me, it's quite easy : buffing warp prism + nerfing Colossi would FORCE Toss to be active. And would make for more interesting matches. Warp prism can be used together with the other harass options : DTs drops/warp ins, drops with VR defense...
I would add that SC2 is supposed to be a decision making + micro/macro skills game, but that Toss also fails here.
Decision making is very poor for this race : Colossi is the best tech tree in EVERY match ups, and, if not all-in'd, you will achieve it. Then, from this point, your opponent HAS to try to counter them, and then you have one or 2 paths that are very effective transitions, which cannot be directly countered anyway (you can flip a coin to chose).
Furthermore, Toss micro is not impressive to watch, except for PvP. In a big fight (which doesn't happen in PvP most of the time), the Toss has to :
1) FFs to negate any opponent micro possibility
2) Micro his highly mobile units for them not to die (Stalkers, Colossi, VRs, ...)
If there are storms available, add 1b) Storms
That's it. Compared to a Terran/Zerg PoV on fights (where there are tanks to handle, concaves to create, surround and focus to do), it's ridiculously easy AND effective. 99% of the time, doing something else is just a waste of APM.
Toss fails to entertain and is, as of now, a burden to SC2. Blizz will never make anything about this, for sure, but I think there IS something to be done, to make the whole Toss race more interesting.
Looking forward to read your comments on this.
  
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I guess this is where the addition of a new unit could prove to be useful (although it risks upsetting the balance of the game).
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I agree all you need to do with toss is 1a, FF FF win. AOE colossus GG no micro involved 
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I completely disagree with toss micro...
Maybe 3 monthes ago in pvz you only had to FF and a-move your stalker/coloss army , I cant deny that , but nowadays lots of zergs are playing with drop banes/mass cracklings/infestors into some broodlords or ultras , when you face such army you cant just FF and move , when 10000 cracklings with OV full of banelings are running into your army you have to blink back / FF / guardian shield / kite ovies / drop some storms and nulify the infestors with your HT's , where as the zerg only had to a move lings ( auto sorround ofc ) and drop from ovies ...
But hey we are still in the "protoss op" tendecy , sad sad
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I agree. Protoss doesn't have nearly the same appeal it had in Brood War, both to watch or play.
There's not much that a top Protoss player can do to really show off their skill as a player, or the rest for us to admire that skill and try to do it ourselves in the game. It's easily the least multitasking intensive race right now (playing "standard").
However I think that's more due to current metagame than anything else. When top Protoss players begin to suffer, they will be forced to change to a more dynamic style of play so they can utilize their mechanics more than they do now. Eventually mechanics will end up being the deciding factor in the difference between two players - and at that point you will not want to be using strategies that kill your own ability to make full use of your mechanics.
I'm actually pretty sure that Colossus will eventually become an outdated unit, or at least stop being a basic building block of Protoss army. Maps keep getting bigger and wider which favors Warpgate units in general. Also, as the skill level is still rising (especially at the very top pro levels), eventually map presence and the ability to move around and harass will become invaluable. Alternatively, Colossi may end up being used very differently in the future. They're actually a very mobile unit in their own right, they're not exactly slow and it's amazing how nobody is really using Cliff Walking to its full potential yet.
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They're basically broodwar terrans with less micro involved. Take out the collosus and add in the reaver.
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I hate to enter balance discussions but I have to say from a design and entertainment perspective, Protoss are just boring. I can seriously not think of a single time I saw a protoss player do something and I went "wow" (I'll gladly be proven wrong). There's nothing entertaining about watching timing attacks or 200/200 armies roll out/remax/repeat. It's gotten to the point where any game with a protoss I can hardly be bothered to watch.
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Netherlands6142 Posts
[15:24] <@RnR]Pholon> I don't like how you talk in facts
[15:24] <@RnR]Pholon> I don't like it at all
[15:25] <@RnR]Pholon> I dunno what I'm supposed to do with this
[15:25] <@RnR]Pholon> your first content sentence is
[15:25] <@RnR]Pholon> "Toss can do PURE macro for 15-20 minutes before actually moving out and win."
[15:25] <@RnR]Pholon> this is jsut not true
[15:25] <@RnR]Pholon> like
[15:25] <@RnR]Pholon> I dunno what to think of this
[15:27] RnR]Pholon: well, that's a fact, Toss can play without moving out for 15 minutes and win. It happens a lot of the time.
[15:27] <@RnR]Pholon> ok
[15:27] <@RnR]Pholon> let's do it
[15:27] <@RnR]Pholon> get online
[15:27] <@RnR]Pholon> you go toss
[15:27] <@RnR]Pholon> do nothing but macro for 20 minutes
[15:27] <@RnR]Pholon> and then kill me
[15:27] <@RnR]Pholon> I will make
[15:27] <@RnR]Pholon> 3 OC before rax
[15:27] <@RnR]Pholon> let's see what happenes
[15:27] -_-
[15:27] OH SHIT!
[15:27] lol
[15:27] SHIT IS HAPPENING IN IRC!
[15:27] <@RnR]Pholon> actually
[15:27] <@RnR]Pholon> that cant happen, need rax for OC lol
[15:27] Yep, one more ignored guy to my list.
[15:27] <@RnR]Pholon> 
offer still stands.
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On May 18 2011 22:29 dafnay wrote:
I completely disagree with toss micro...
Maybe 3 monthes ago in pvz you only had to FF and a-move your stalker/coloss army , I cant deny that , but nowadays lots of zergs are playing with drop banes/mass cracklings/infestors into some broodlords or ultras , when you face such army you cant just FF and move , when 10000 cracklings with OV full of banelings are running into your army you have to blink back / FF / guardian shield / kite ovies / drop some storms and nulify the infestors with your HT's , where as the zerg only had to a move lings ( auto sorround ofc ) and drop from ovies ...
But hey we are still in the "protoss op" tendecy , sad sad
Well, I don't see how mass cracklings is not «FFs and a move». And I don't understand why you're taking about Guardian Shield given the examples you're giving, GS is VS ranged units...
For banes, you need to back you army once you FFd as EVERYTHING is faster than a flying overlord in your army, then turn back, and MAYBE split, then you're good to go kill as the Zerg invested so much in this.
For infestors, as well, just putting Colossi ahead is enough 90% of the time.
This is not what I call interesting micro. You're comparing that to LINGS vs COLOSSI, saying it's «auto surround», I don't even understand if you're serious or not.
On May 18 2011 22:34 Pholon wrote:[15:24] <@RnR]Pholon> I don't like how you talk in facts [15:24] <@RnR]Pholon> I don't like it at all [15:25] <@RnR]Pholon> I dunno what I'm supposed to do with this [15:25] <@RnR]Pholon> your first content sentence is [15:25] <@RnR]Pholon> "Toss can do PURE macro for 15-20 minutes before actually moving out and win." [15:25] <@RnR]Pholon> this is jsut not true [15:25] <@RnR]Pholon> like [15:25] <@RnR]Pholon> I dunno what to think of this [15:27] <Tolki> RnR]Pholon: well, that's a fact, Toss can play without moving out for 15 minutes and win. It happens a lot of the time.[15:27] <@RnR]Pholon> ok [15:27] <@RnR]Pholon> let's do it [15:27] <@RnR]Pholon> get online [15:27] <@RnR]Pholon> you go toss [15:27] <@RnR]Pholon> do nothing but macro for 20 minutes [15:27] <@RnR]Pholon> and then kill me [15:27] <@RnR]Pholon> I will make [15:27] <@RnR]Pholon> 3 OC before rax [15:27] <@RnR]Pholon> let's see what happenes [15:27] <Tolki> -_- [15:27] <Elkram> OH SHIT! [15:27] <ZheK> lol [15:27] <Elkram> SHIT IS HAPPENING IN IRC! [15:27] <@RnR]Pholon> actually [15:27] <@RnR]Pholon> that cant happen, need rax for OC lol [15:27] <Tolki> Yep, one more ignored guy to my list. [15:27] <@RnR]Pholon> offer still stands.
I didn't say being brain dead as well, but you don't seem to get that.
On May 18 2011 22:34 Glaven wrote:
I hate to enter balance discussions but I have to say from a design and entertainment perspective, Protoss are just boring. I can seriously not think of a single time I saw a protoss player do something and I went "wow" (I'll gladly be proven wrong). There's nothing entertaining about watching timing attacks or 200/200 armies roll out/remax/repeat. It's gotten to the point where any game with a protoss I can hardly be bothered to watch.
This is not a balance discussion. I'm pretty sure the game is close to perfect balance as of now, the tournament results are showing it.
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On May 18 2011 22:32 Zidane wrote:
They're basically broodwar terrans with less micro involved. Take out the collosus and add in the reaver.
I endorse this request. If Blizzard does this, I'll love them forever. xD
Anyway, if I can take the liberty of responding to that IRC request, it's an entirely different matter if you KNOW that the Protoss will sit back and turlte until maxed, especially in PvT.
The problem other races have in their vP is mostly that the we can look scary all game long, and that at no point will they feel comfortable with double or triple expanding and taking a map against a defensive Protoss.
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On May 18 2011 22:38 Talin wrote:Show nested quote +On May 18 2011 22:32 Zidane wrote:
They're basically broodwar terrans with less micro involved. Take out the collosus and add in the reaver. I endorse this request. If Blizzard does this, I'll love them forever. xD Anyway, if I can take the liberty of responding to that IRC request, it's an entirely different matter if you KNOW that the Protoss will sit back and turlte until maxed, especially in PvT. The problem other races have in their vP is mostly that the we can look scary all game long, and that at no point will they feel comfortable with double or triple expanding and taking a map against a defensive Protoss.
Please don't answer to trolls, it will just make the thread drift in the wrong direction. I've written this in my first post (mobility with a passive army making real super greedy play impossible), and the only thing he comes up with is «3OCs before rax», then reposts this from IRC to the forum.
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TBH that is a rather elaborate QQ here.
The fact is that sentries do NOT make you invulnerable. But it might seem like that if you have actually never played Toss and only observed. Examples where Toss fails at that playstyle with Sentries for defense is IMLosira vs SlayerS_Alicia.
On May 18 2011 22:34 Glaven wrote:
I hate to enter balance discussions but I have to say from a design and entertainment perspective, Protoss are just boring. I can seriously not think of a single time I saw a protoss player do something and I went "wow" (I'll gladly be proven wrong). There's nothing entertaining about watching timing attacks or 200/200 armies roll out/remax/repeat. It's gotten to the point where any game with a protoss I can hardly be bothered to watch.
Watch Adelscott play against MVP on Metalopolis in the TSL. Lag or no Lag, Adelscott wins although he is not makeing Collosus and or Sentries.
Also i bet that 1 year after the release of SC:BW the game was as it is now :O
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Netherlands6142 Posts
On May 18 2011 22:38 Talin wrote:Show nested quote +On May 18 2011 22:32 Zidane wrote:
They're basically broodwar terrans with less micro involved. Take out the collosus and add in the reaver. Anyway, if I can take the liberty of responding to that IRC request, it's an entirely different matter if you KNOW that the Protoss will sit back and turlte until maxed, especially in PvT.
Yes.. and presenting dumb statements (ones that for example completely disregard what your opponent is doing) as if they were facts is exactly what I'm criticizing the OP for.
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the Dagon Knight4004 Posts
On May 18 2011 22:08 mr_tolkien wrote:
Toss can do PURE macro for 15-20 minutes before actually moving out and win.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but surely for this to happen, someone has to have fucked up on the way to that 20 minute mark?
Also:
On May 18 2011 22:43 zocktol wrote:
Examples where Toss fails at that playstyle with Sentries for defense is IMLosira vs SlayerS_Alicia.
Please don't remind me, I had such high hopes for Alicia; watching him perfectly place those force fields without having any effect other than drawing out the loss was heartbreaking.
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I feel as if maybe you're oversimplifying a little bit, know you said you were venting, but this reaction seems to be against the style Toss has had success with a few weeks ago. In PvP I feel collossi tech is not necessarily the strongest, sure at the 200/200 point its an obvious choice but even on a map like Xel'Naga caverns where you have a ramp to FF on an opponent who chooses blink stalkers still has many viable options in attacking just do to the sheer mobility advantage they posses, just see Genius vs Hero from the GSTL today. In ZvP some progress is being made by zergs I think to keep the death ball from occurring through the use of more drops. These also help set up situations later on in games where the Toss player may have to decide for or against a base race in a mass drop scenario, as well as providing the choice of dropped baneling bombs which, while not terribly strong against stalkers can help destroy sentry counts and weakening an army quite a bit. TvP still feels like there are a ton of viable choices for terrans, ghost EMP on one hand is quite strong and just requires a bit more control, it will probably also see more usage after the cost change in ghosts from the recent patch. Mech play feels relatively unexplored in TvP spare what we all saw Thorzain do in the TSL, and it is possible that even with the revert back to strike cannon mana costs Thors could play a pivotal rule in lessening a Toss army. I also feel that watching a toss struggle to hold off drops or defend his front for 15 minutes where defense is uneasy for him as he tries to get out those collossi can sometimes be extremely entertaining
ps: sorry for text wall
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On May 18 2011 22:43 zocktol wrote:TBH that is a rather elaborate QQ here. The fact is that sentries do NOT make you invulnerable. But it might seem like that if you have actually never played Toss and only observed. Examples where Toss fails at that playstyle with Sentries for defense is IMLosira vs SlayerS_Alicia. Show nested quote +On May 18 2011 22:34 Glaven wrote:
I hate to enter balance discussions but I have to say from a design and entertainment perspective, Protoss are just boring. I can seriously not think of a single time I saw a protoss player do something and I went "wow" (I'll gladly be proven wrong). There's nothing entertaining about watching timing attacks or 200/200 armies roll out/remax/repeat. It's gotten to the point where any game with a protoss I can hardly be bothered to watch. Watch Adelscott play against MVP on Metalopolis in the TSL. Lag or no Lag, Adelscott wins although he is not makeing Collosus and or Sentries. Also i bet that 1 year after the release of SC:BW the game was as it is now :O
It's not QQ or anything, it's just a fact I see after commentating 200+ matches and playing random for 1 month.
I'm back to Z because I LIKE the tactical possibilities, tech switches, and mind game you can do, as well as the heavy micro/multitask builds you can play.
Concerning Adel VS MVP (generally speaking, Tyler style), even though he didn't do any Colossi, it's the same line of thought. I'm not whining about Colossi, but about the fact that a SUPER passive gameplan even exists as Toss. Be it with Colossi, upgraded gates, or Templars, the Toss player can nearly all the time «not do anything» and still win.
On May 18 2011 22:45 SirJolt wrote:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but surely for this to happen, someone has to have fucked up on the way to that 20 minute mark?
No. If the Toss wants the game to go to the 15 minutes mark + isn't all in'd off one base, he can force it.
On May 18 2011 22:44 Pholon wrote:
Yes.. and presenting dumb statements (ones that for example completely disregard what your opponent is doing) as if they were facts is exactly what I'm criticizing the OP for.
The main decision making problems involved with Toss are «will this attack kill me ?» + «can I kill him NOW ?». Knowing you'll have a few observers if you go Colossi, you'll be able to answer this and forbid stupidities that could win if you decide to sleep on your keyboard.
OF COURSE do you have to think a little bit while playing, as I said in my previous dead, I didn't take brain dead people into account. So please stop stating random things just to derail the thread, thank you.
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On May 18 2011 22:49 mr_tolkien wrote:
It's not QQ or anything, it's just a fact I see after commentating 200+ matches and playing random for 1 month.
I'm back to Z because I LIKE the tactical possibilities, tech switches, and mind game you can do, as well as the heavy micro/multitask builds you can play.
Concerning Adel VS MVP (generally speaking, Tyler style), even though he didn't do any Colossi, it's the same line of thought. I'm not whining about Colossi, but about the fact that a SUPER passive gameplan even exists as Toss. Be it with Colossi, upgraded gates, or Templars, the Toss player can nearly all the time «not do anything» and still win.
First of all i think that Adel did that stuff since the Beta, at least from comments i heard from Day[9].
What you are doing is arguing, that the play style of the Protoss is boring, because it is in fact tailored towards the playstyle of the opponent. Of course Adel has to defend and sit back, if MVP is constantly dropping him. If he would try to be aggressive before he achieved the uprgrade advantage he would just get mauled and loose. I would like to compare it to running into a chainsaw, if you attack with Gateway Units into Bio with Stim and Medivacs. Also most Zergs are playing super passive, especially in ZvT, how can you like that?
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On May 18 2011 23:04 zocktol wrote:Show nested quote +On May 18 2011 22:49 mr_tolkien wrote:
It's not QQ or anything, it's just a fact I see after commentating 200+ matches and playing random for 1 month.
I'm back to Z because I LIKE the tactical possibilities, tech switches, and mind game you can do, as well as the heavy micro/multitask builds you can play.
Concerning Adel VS MVP (generally speaking, Tyler style), even though he didn't do any Colossi, it's the same line of thought. I'm not whining about Colossi, but about the fact that a SUPER passive gameplan even exists as Toss. Be it with Colossi, upgraded gates, or Templars, the Toss player can nearly all the time «not do anything» and still win.
First of all i think that Adel did that stuff since the Beta, at least from comments i heard from Day[9]. What you are doing is arguing, that the play style of the Protoss is boring, because it is in fact tailored towards the playstyle of the opponent. Of course Adel has to defend and sit back, if MVP is constantly dropping him. If he would try to be aggressive before he achieved the uprgrade advantage he would just get mauled and loose. I would like to compare it to running into a chainsaw, if you attack with Gateway Units into Bio with Stim and Medivacs. Also most Zergs are playing super passive, especially in ZvT, how can you like that?
Your last phrase really shows you don't get what I'm talking about. If muta harass + map control fight is «not doing anything», we clearly don't share the same values.
Whereas Adel VS MVP was pure passiveness. Had MVP expanded earlier, he would have too. He wasn't gearing up, at any time, to be the active player in the game, and didn't NEED to. He perfectly won with this style, and even though it was interesting to watch from a metagame point of view, I really felt sad for MVP as he was the one making the game interesting.
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On May 18 2011 23:10 mr_tolkien wrote:Show nested quote +On May 18 2011 23:04 zocktol wrote:On May 18 2011 22:49 mr_tolkien wrote:
It's not QQ or anything, it's just a fact I see after commentating 200+ matches and playing random for 1 month.
I'm back to Z because I LIKE the tactical possibilities, tech switches, and mind game you can do, as well as the heavy micro/multitask builds you can play.
Concerning Adel VS MVP (generally speaking, Tyler style), even though he didn't do any Colossi, it's the same line of thought. I'm not whining about Colossi, but about the fact that a SUPER passive gameplan even exists as Toss. Be it with Colossi, upgraded gates, or Templars, the Toss player can nearly all the time «not do anything» and still win.
First of all i think that Adel did that stuff since the Beta, at least from comments i heard from Day[9]. What you are doing is arguing, that the play style of the Protoss is boring, because it is in fact tailored towards the playstyle of the opponent. Of course Adel has to defend and sit back, if MVP is constantly dropping him. If he would try to be aggressive before he achieved the uprgrade advantage he would just get mauled and loose. I would like to compare it to running into a chainsaw, if you attack with Gateway Units into Bio with Stim and Medivacs. Also most Zergs are playing super passive, especially in ZvT, how can you like that? Your last phrase really shows you don't get what I'm talking about. If muta harass + map control fight is «not doing anything», we clearly don't share the same values. Whereas Adel VS MVP was pure passiveness. Had MVP expanded earlier, he would have too. He wasn't gearing up, at any time, to be the active player in the game, and didn't NEED to.
So if i make DTs and sent them after i have taken my natural its cool?
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On May 18 2011 23:12 zocktol wrote:Show nested quote +On May 18 2011 23:10 mr_tolkien wrote:On May 18 2011 23:04 zocktol wrote:On May 18 2011 22:49 mr_tolkien wrote:
It's not QQ or anything, it's just a fact I see after commentating 200+ matches and playing random for 1 month.
I'm back to Z because I LIKE the tactical possibilities, tech switches, and mind game you can do, as well as the heavy micro/multitask builds you can play.
Concerning Adel VS MVP (generally speaking, Tyler style), even though he didn't do any Colossi, it's the same line of thought. I'm not whining about Colossi, but about the fact that a SUPER passive gameplan even exists as Toss. Be it with Colossi, upgraded gates, or Templars, the Toss player can nearly all the time «not do anything» and still win.
First of all i think that Adel did that stuff since the Beta, at least from comments i heard from Day[9]. What you are doing is arguing, that the play style of the Protoss is boring, because it is in fact tailored towards the playstyle of the opponent. Of course Adel has to defend and sit back, if MVP is constantly dropping him. If he would try to be aggressive before he achieved the uprgrade advantage he would just get mauled and loose. I would like to compare it to running into a chainsaw, if you attack with Gateway Units into Bio with Stim and Medivacs. Also most Zergs are playing super passive, especially in ZvT, how can you like that? Your last phrase really shows you don't get what I'm talking about. If muta harass + map control fight is «not doing anything», we clearly don't share the same values. Whereas Adel VS MVP was pure passiveness. Had MVP expanded earlier, he would have too. He wasn't gearing up, at any time, to be the active player in the game, and didn't NEED to. So if i make DTs and sent them after i have taken my natural its cool?
You're talking about the Inca build ? The one with which he lost 0-4 to Nestea because it just outright sucked ? (and it's even worst VS Terran)
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EPT
