EPTAlso, may I ask what league you're in?
Balance is achieved - Page 3
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GoDLy MD
United Kingdom258 Posts
Also, may I ask what league you're in? | ||
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mr_tolkien
France8631 Posts
On May 19 2011 01:17 GoDLy MD wrote: I'm curious as to what you hope to achieve with this blog? Also, may I ask what league you're in? Nothing, it's a blog. It's completly irrelevant to the topic (I'm talking about entertainment/fun value), but here is my profile : http://www.sc2ranks.com/eu/351168/aAaTolki | ||
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FreshVegetables
Finland513 Posts
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Legend`
Canada381 Posts
We can agree (hopefully) that Zerg has the most cost efficient army of the three races, and terrans can do a ridiculous amount of damage with a 4 marauder drop with stim in your base. However what does Protoss have? Maybe a 4 DT drop can do some damage if you have absolutely no detection, but things like zealots/stalkers don't do nearly as much damage per cost as marauders/roaches. Unless they reduce the cost of stalkers to like 100/25 or Zealots to 50 minerals it simply is not cost efficient to do drops as Protoss, not to mention the fact that Protoss is more prone to early game all-ins (terran marine allin or zerg losira semi-allin with roaches). | ||
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mr_tolkien
France8631 Posts
On May 19 2011 01:52 Legend` wrote: The problem with warp prism play is that protoss armies aren't as expendable as zerg/terran armies are. We can agree (hopefully) that Zerg has the most cost efficient army of the three races, and terrans can do a ridiculous amount of damage with a 4 marauder drop with stim in your base. However what does Protoss have? Maybe a 4 DT drop can do some damage if you have absolutely no detection, but things like zealots/stalkers don't do nearly as much damage per cost as marauders/roaches. Unless they reduce the cost of stalkers to like 100/25 or Zealots to 50 minerals it simply is not cost efficient to do drops as Protoss, not to mention the fact that Protoss is more prone to early game all-ins (terran marine allin or zerg losira semi-allin with roaches). Nice attempt at trolling, knowing a Zealot has nearly twice the DPS of a Roach. | ||
SirJolt
the Dagon Knight4016 Posts
On May 19 2011 02:25 mr_tolkien wrote: Nice attempt at trolling, knowing a Zealot has nearly twice the DPS of a Roach. Please don't call any dissenting opinion "trolling," not because I have any issue with the term, but because your use of it to denigrate any argument you don't agree with is embarrassing, and it embarrasses the rest of us by extension for trying to discuss this in a normal manner. When you're first recourse is to say, "you're trolling," in place of supplying meaningful responses, your argument starts to seem really weak. And on topic, of course zealots have a nice high DPS, but roaches are ranged, and shoot over one another. This isn't even something that should need to be pointed out; the two are fundamentally different man  | ||
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zawk9
United States427 Posts
The race can still lead to good series, like the TSL, but the turtlefests are very disappointing. Especially when the opposing player barrels into you from 3 directions at once and still gets creamed (ala Mondragon). | ||
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Chocobo
United States1108 Posts
On May 19 2011 02:25 mr_tolkien wrote: Nice attempt at trolling, knowing a Zealot has nearly twice the DPS of a Roach. Twice the dps, but they won't deal twice the damage in a drop. They're easy to avoid and kite, and they can't take out key buildings in hurry like other dropped units can. I agree with the OP that the design of protoss just isn't too fun to play or to watch. TvZ is a great matchup, ZvZ can be exciting, TvT can be slow and careful but often can feature banshee harrassment, drops all over the place, and good back and forth gameplay. But any protoss matchup, for me at least, gets tiring to watch. When watching GSL vods, I'll usually skip most of the protoss games in the first few rounds unless it's MC or something. PvP is extremely repetitive, and the great majority of PvZ and PvT games feature the protoss turtling until he has a deathball, or else the protoss makes risky plays (see Inca) and makes me wonder why he didn't turtle until deathball like the pros. Only MC seems to be able to consistently play well without using this style. But even then, a lot of it is force field walls and just watching the units bash each other, no micro or anything unusual or interesting involved. | ||
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mr_tolkien
France8631 Posts
On May 19 2011 04:04 SirJolt wrote: Please don't call any dissenting opinion "trolling," not because I have any issue with the term, but because your use of it to denigrate any argument you don't agree with is embarrassing, and it embarrasses the rest of us by extension for trying to discuss this in a normal manner. When you don't get numbers right, I assume it's volontary, sorry. 4 zealots dropped are as useful as 4 roaches, if not more, especially when «sniping buildings» is evoked. But the more important thing is not to forget this post was not made to cry for the absence of Toss harass, but more for it's absence of usefulness compared to just timing push/turtling. Add to this the phrase «Zealots to 50 minerals » and you understand why I call it trolling. I have no problem using the right word for the right thing, but this clearly wasn't a post made with any other goal than to make a few users tell him how he is wrong. Does anybody sees a good reason why Toss should try to harass at any point in the flow of a «standard» game instead of doing core army ? I personnaly don't. | ||
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Shifft
Canada1085 Posts
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xarthaz
1704 Posts
On May 18 2011 22:08 mr_tolkien wrote: But entertainment is not ! I'm just writing a quick blog about SC2 and more precisely Protoss in this game. For those who don't know me, I'm a French caster, casting in English once a week, so I value entertainment even more than casual gamers turning their 360 on. Plain games kills my business ! Therefore, I'd like to whine a little bit about Protoss, relating to this. What is the problem ? Toss can do PURE macro for 15-20 minutes before actually moving out and win. The 2 other races can also turtle and play pure defensive, but it will 90% of the time be in preparation for harass (drops/mutas), and, more important, if they chose to do so, they CAN'T move out, whereas Toss has the famous «mobile siege unit» + the «no micro please unit», namely, the Colossus and the Sentry, making a macro Toss able to push very early with little to no risk. This is not a balance issue. Zergs can all in when the Toss army is in the making, or put some heavy muta pressure, Terrans can drop and expand like mad men... But Toss can perfectly sit back, stick to his game plan, wait a little bit, and push. This creates really boring matches, be it on the ladder, in tournaments... And it sucks. Toss, as of now, is killing SC2. So, why is it this way ? Well, the Toss army is so powerful it would be utterly stupid not to use it to its maximum efficiency. And Toss harass is so bad it's a gamble to use it, as you don't NEED it (except air vZ, but that's just because PvZ is flawed a bit deeper than just «entertainment problems»). Warp prism ? Taking on precious colossi. DTs ? Once repelled, you won't have enough of an army not to die. Surprise warp ins with hidden pylons ? REALLY hard to make it work. Air ? Except vZ (as v air Z is quite bad VS Toss), too much of an investment. Therefore, what could be done ? To me, it's quite easy : buffing warp prism + nerfing Colossi would FORCE Toss to be active. And would make for more interesting matches. Warp prism can be used together with the other harass options : DTs drops/warp ins, drops with VR defense... I would add that SC2 is supposed to be a decision making + micro/macro skills game, but that Toss also fails here. Decision making is very poor for this race : Colossi is the best tech tree in EVERY match ups, and, if not all-in'd, you will achieve it. Then, from this point, your opponent HAS to try to counter them, and then you have one or 2 paths that are very effective transitions, which cannot be directly countered anyway (you can flip a coin to chose). Furthermore, Toss micro is not impressive to watch, except for PvP. In a big fight (which doesn't happen in PvP most of the time), the Toss has to : 1) FFs to negate any opponent micro possibility 2) Micro his highly mobile units for them not to die (Stalkers, Colossi, VRs, ...) If there are storms available, add 1b) Storms That's it. Compared to a Terran/Zerg PoV on fights (where there are tanks to handle, concaves to create, surround and focus to do), it's ridiculously easy AND effective. 99% of the time, doing something else is just a waste of APM. Toss fails to entertain and is, as of now, a burden to SC2. Blizz will never make anything about this, for sure, but I think there IS something to be done, to make the whole Toss race more interesting. Looking forward to read your comments on this. Remember, PvT in BW for example is also usually a massive macro fest, with both sides often macroing up for 15-20 minutes or until they hit 200/200 before doing anything significant. Is this a problem? Doesnt seem so, as the games are still quite entertaining. It may again have to do with SC2 being a younger game and thus strategies not being quite refines or exquisite yet. | ||
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