|
The article "The Elephant in the Room" by intrigue lead me to a question. It is the question whether it is desirable to establish such practice routines in SC2 as we find in Korean BW-progaming for the absolute S-class players like Jaedong or Flash, so the competition won't be a farce anymore, or if it is inhumane to expect such a thing.
I have always loved foreigner tournaments - especially TSL 1 + 2 of course - and they have filled me with the same excitement as Korean tournaments like the OSL and MSL. Less so, it was with the WCG because there it was standard for many years that the competition (top 1 + 2 positions) was more or less decided before the tournament even started, because the Korean "perfect training regime" clashed with the foreign "casual (in comparison)" one. Of course, there was a certain excitement factor whether foreigners would be able to take a game here and there off the Koreans, but that can't be the basis for whole tournaments. So, what I want to say is, that there are two different systems, as mentioned above, the foreign one, which is more casual + Show Spoiler +note: I use the word "casual" simply to make clear how much of a difference Korean and foreign practice regimes make in BW
My question would be if we want these exact same conditions we find in Korea (for BW) to apply for SC2 as well and thus pay the price that the players we watch are more or less (made) machines driven by coaches who expect them to consistently practice 12-14 (?) hours a day, or if that is not desirable. As of yet, in the SC2 scene, it comes down to the individual player's motivation to be one of the very best and practice for certain important matches. It may also be, that sometimes you don't find the time to prepare 12 hours a day (because of RL reasons) and only make 6-7 games a day (as ThorZain mentioned with the preparation against Kas), but you are still able to win a whole series. This would never be possible in high end BW as we see it nowadays, or it would at least be extremely unusual. Referring to intrigue's article, he proposes that the real S-class players, who are prime representatives of the perfect Korean pros, have not yet entered the scene. Maybe people like Fruitdealer, Nestea and MC are also people who are not willing to submit to the excessive training schedules which are expected to be S-class in BW. Maybe they wan't to have a life, too, and so it's not only the money in SC2 which is more easily accesible for them, but also the general level of competition which is lower in SC2 (as mentioned several times). I guess this also applies to Boxer and Nada who see they can play somewhere at the top without having to shoulder the bulimia kind of practice needed to be a BW S-class pro.
In my thinking, the kind of practice that players like Jaedong or Flash put up, is a talent in itself. And differently "framed" systems benefit differently "talented" (talent in the sense of a predisposition) players. Whereas SC2 seems (at the moment) to be perfect for players like NesTea and MC who, arguably, have a very high "raw skill", they did not really succeed that much in the BW kind of system and its demands because they are possibly not that organized or don't have the asset that they can simply practice for 12 hours every day. So if we take a snapshot of the not yet fully developed SC2 progaming scene and pretend it would be a lasting state, we could say that it is "enough" to be very talented in "raw skill" like players such as NesTea and MC seem to be, to belong to the absolute top, which would not change until (as intrigue correctly said) BW S-class players would join the scene and bring with them not only the "raw skill" but also the component "no mercy practice". This would change the requirements to be S-class in SC2 permanently as it would behave like in the free market: that in competition everyone has to yield to those who set the bar highest (and their practices). So this comes back to my inital question: Is this desirable? Do we want this just to see the cleanest possible play, not have any sloppy actions (as humanly possible)? Or could we also enjoy a more "foreign" (as in BW terms / as currently in SC2) SC2 scene and the matches it would produce? Of course, players who bring both - the raw skill and the sick practice motviation - and make it without a coach who forbids them to go out and enjoy life, would be fearsome, but it is still preferable - in my eyes - to making this the general rule. Somehow I like to think that the players I watch, practice their 6-8 hours per day, then meet some friends, go drink and don't have somebody waving the whip behind them all day long. It might be a bit unrealistic, because you can't technically restrict players to not practice more than 8 hours per day, but if the SC2 scene ON GENERAL was not driven by Asian / Korean culture kind of practice routines (as in BW) it would definitely be a plus. But the actual development of this will depend on the attention that SC2 will get in Korea and if there will be as much money in it in the long run as there is in BW right now. As soon as that is the case, the machine like practice schedules which Jaedong and Flash are epitomes for, will also be established in the SC2 scene and we will have a long term development similar to that of BW where the Korean S-class players crush any competition and only those foreigners who are able (and willing) to adapt, will be able to keep up. But that's still very hard in the "foreign world" because we are not used to submitting to a authoritative figure (coach) who is entitled to forbid us to go out, having to practice instead, and the necessary structures such as progaming houses (which I'm a fan of btw!) are also just in the making. So, to make this clear, what "The Elephant in the Room" wanted to say is simply that those progamers who have it both, the "raw skill" and the willingness to submit to the merciless practice hours (which I also count as a talent not anybody possesses), so those who play to the fullest potential of what the sick Korean practice circumstances could demand of you (only found in BW as of now), that those players have not yet entered the SC2 scene and brought with them their whole new level of challange. But as soon as they do, everyone will have to submit to their practices or we have our "two class society" of BW days again.
Personally, as mentioned a few times, I am satisfied with TSL 1 + 2 level of play and I don't like the thought that the players I watch cannot or are not allowed to do anything besides playing Starcraft simply to make every timing a nanosecond more perfect. But it's also unrealistic that there could be "players rights", such as that coaches are forbidden to "force" their players to play inhumane amounts of hours. In my perfect world it should come down to the individual motivation without such immense external pressure and demands as found in Korean BW (the latter I see based on the culture and different ideas where performance is concerned). So, basically you can take all the structures found in Korea (Live TV broadcasts, Progaming Houses, etc. etc.), establish them here but approach it more with a "Western" mentality as far as training hours are concerned.
Well, this was a rather long "general musing" about the state of SC2 progaming in comparison to BW and some personal thoughts and wishes on how I'd like it to develop. We'll see how it progresses.
Note: I don't mean disrespect to any non-Korean progamers or see them as "casuals" (I think I made clear in which sense I use the word). I also don't want to make it sound as if they are just schoolkids who play a little on the side and are quite good at it - I see that professional esports develops rather quickly in the West, especially with SC2 now, and that it's a real "profession" to be a player. I only wanted to say that I hope that this won't mean that you are either a machine like worker (like BW progaming demands it of you) or you can't be a top player in SC2 (in the future).
Maybe a little info for SC2 players new to the scene who are not familiar with "BW vocabularies": "foreign" / "foreigners" was associated with everyone who did not practice under Korean circumstances and thus was probably someone who could not solely live off Broodwar, so went to school / work and had other responsibilities besides playing BW (which came with a considerable difference in skill level compared to the Koreans).
|
|
|
if you are talking about restricting practise, i dont see how its going to work. there will be people devoted to the game that WILL practise beyond any restrictions placed (i mean, can you really stop people wanting to play sc2 in their spare time?) and those people, more or less, will end up at the top (sans any freaks of nature with enormous talent.)
i know the korean bw scene cops alot of flak, but i dont think its as bad as people make it. jaedong and flash surely practise alot, but last i heard they are conscious about their health (they work out, eat right, do things other than bw.) i dont have any problem with it, i do enjoy watching high level play with less mistakes. i would be a bit concerned if it was clear the s-class players were suffering from overpractise. flash's wrist comes to mind, but he seems to be taking care of it and his coach/manager seem to be as well
|
honestly, i think the gap between pro players and casual players has been lowered going into sc2
else old timers like boxer would be kicking major ass
|
I am sorry, but I have to disagree and I think that until people are dedicating themselves to this game 8+ hours a day it won't be as fun for me to watch. I watch pros play because they are pro, because they put in countless hours to find 1 flaw in their play. If everyone gets lazy and the scene is just "casual" in a sense, then these progamers shouldn't be making money. If they want to be a progamer, they have to sacrifice to be the best and to raise the level of play.
On May 16 2011 00:59 IzieBoy wrote:
honestly, i think the gap between pro players and casual players has been lowered going into sc2
else old timers like boxer would be kicking major ass
No, the game isn't figured out yet and Boxer is getting older and is more of a coach than a player. Nada is kicking ass and so is July, so your theory between pro and casual players is false. The skill gap is only going to widen with time until the point where people are almost perfect.
|
Comparing SC2 to BW are so hard to do. The reason practice was more important in BW was to keep up mechanics. Now with SC2 I dont think it is necessary for anyone to practice all day everyday to compete at high levels as was needed in BW.
|
BW Pros are like athletes. It's not uncommon for an athlete to devote 12 hours per day to their sport. And these ppl love what they do anyway. They may wish they had more time to do other things, but practice in itself is not a drain to them. They also know that if they don't push themselves to max, they will have regrets when their career is over. Besides: "Having a life" is overrated.
|
Pro players get paid to be pro players. If you don't have the determination and wish to play SC for numerous hours a day, like a profession, then it is not the career path you should choose. I don't have the quotes in mind right now, but I remember Jaedong and Flash in interviews have stated that they choose to go beyond their regulated practice hours in order to be the best. There is no question that if we want the SC2 players to be considered the same level of Pro as the BW ones, they'll have to show the same level of dedication to being the best. I don't think any of the korean pros have had any issues thus far, they still take care of themselves both physically and mentally, despite playing such long and frequent hours. In fact, quite a few of them visit the gym or do something else on the side (lol Stork playing WoW), so while their social life might be somewhat infringed, its definitely still possible to have everything going on (oov is married yo).
|
I'm not saying players like Naniwa, Morrow, Thorzain and others, who choose to be professional gamers should not practice 8 hours a day - that is reasonable as we see in normal work life (40 hours per week = normal). I'm only posing the question whether it is desirable to fully adapt and conform to the Korean practice standards in order to make sure that there won't be a "two class society" in SC2 as there has been in BW. Only that the latter would not happen until SC2 has the same or a similar standing as BW in the Korean progaming scene and all the big progaming teams and sponsors "take it seriously". That would be the point when the S-class players like Jaedong and Flash would come over and bring their practice standards and that's then either conform to it or fall behind. As of now, it appears that SC2 is rather something like WC3 was in Korea back in the day, not nearly as important, and with WC3 we can see that foreigners were able to keep up over the whole time BECAUSE it has never been taken as seriously by the Korean progaming scene as BW. I'm a bit skeptical if us Westerners are willing to submit to the Korean practice standards and feel good with it. Not many who moved to Korea back in the day to take a shot at BW progaming careers did (and there have been quite a few).
So if it was simply a matter of "what would you wish for", I would wish that the state IS KEPT as it is right now, with the formation of progaming houses, sure, everything becoming more professional and structured in the West (+ more prize money), sure, but with the personal decision of how much to invest and no slavemaster who stands behind you to force you to practice (and who can also sanction you as he wills). Of course it is easier and more efficient if you just force teenagers to practice that much by establishing such a "pressure regime", you will produce the best possible results, I simply don't like it that much, and if some players have the stamina to do it without someone behind their back to force them, I'm totally fine with it, it should just not be driven that much by the "Asian/Korean norm".
I'm not denying that in times before important matches (like TSL finals) you are maybe practicing 12 hours per day most willingly, that's totally fine, I just don't like that "bullying teenagers into inhumane practice hours"- kind of thing. It's a matter of circumstances, values, norms, culture, persons around you and their attitue (e.g. your coach).
So, the formula in its simplest form would be: If SC2=BW at some point in Korea => a whole new level of challange will be established in SC2 (BW S-class) => development of a two class society (widening skill gap) (again) if foreigners are not able or willing to adapt.
Ultimately, it's a matter of stance, if you wish for a state where all the progamers are like little Michael Phelpses who are ordered around by their coaches in the function of authoritative figures, so we may see perfection as is humanly possible. If it becomes serious like BW and Korea sets the pace, it will probably be the case sooner or later. I don't mind a play where errors happen here and there (statistically more often with 8 hours training than with 14 hours) because the players are still ridiculously good and fun to watch, but yeah, it's not wrong to say that if progamers want to be considered like professional athletes e.g., they will have to put up the same amount of effort (or at least some will and only those will be the very best / compare JD+Flash).
I'm probably exaggerating in some points but the basic message should be clear now. The only people who could really evaluate this are players like Jinro or Huk who are over there to train or maybe some ex-progamers who tried it for BW (like Nony / Rekrul).
|
Ask any professional sports player/driver/singer/actor how much time they spend each day doing something job related, most of them give up entire childhoods to get that good. It is also a trade off, 20-30 years of pain then you have your life pretty much set if you're smart. You'll see it probably is worse than your usual 9-5 so why would we expect less from SC2 pros. From the article Jaedong sounds pretty much like any run of the mill pro, 10% inspiration, 90% perspiration.
How do you think godlike performances come to life? By lots and lots and lots of work and time and without absolutely raping your life you'll never get to the highest possible skill level. Of course proper trainers that have a clue are a requirement but I wouldn't cry over Phelps, he's gotten that good because of his trainer not in spite of it.
And it's not even hey you need to practice and sleep and eat only, it's structured schedule, no random external influences which can fuck your mindset and have you lose focus. A pro is a machine when it comes to his sport, all the training is so that most of what they do is reflex.
So wait, you'd rather have players going on a random 8h/day schedule with whatever training they think of rather than having them do the same 8h under a controlled and strict environment? What's the point there? If a dude wants to be pro he'd better be loving being shoved around by his coach.
Here's another idea. I love what I do at work, so much so that I rejected much better pay to keep my current job. It has shitty periods and awesome periods, for either I may have a work load ranging from 1-2h/day to 16h/day. And I do it gladly because the satisfaction at the end is great and as long as I get that satisfaction at the end of every project my boss can shove me around all he wants and I'll work for as long as it takes without anyone asking me to do it. Though I also don't really give a shit about 9-5 when there's not much to do.
|
With the growing scene, i think it will soon become impossible for players to train _too_ much. In about 3-4 years we will have about 30-50 full-pros that spend at least 50% of their time travelling to the different LAN events everywhere in the world (MLG, NASL Finals, Dreamhack and whatever else we get in a few years), so the time to practice will be quite limited.
I also think, with the easier mechanics, the mental aspect of SC2 will take a bigger role, meaning the smarter players win... and becoming a machine doesn't make you smarter. Natural talent becomes even more important than 12 hours practice a day.
|
Not really, smarter means more time spent studying your opponent, new builds, old builds and less mashing buttons but it's still time spent practicing. Natural talent only takes you so far. No matter which part is the hardest it still needs a ton of work. And the more the players travel the more they need to intensify their training sessions.
Being smart and knowing how to use your brain, in any position, in any game, against any opponent and coming up with solutions are 2 different things.
|
It's similar to the debate that occured when that one female Asian Yale professor published her book on child education, showing how mercilessly she tried to "produce" the best possible children. We don't only find such coaches in the Asian world, as I mentioned with my example of Michael Phelps, but overall I guess it's more common in the Asian countries to submit to an elder person who has the ultimate command over you (and exploits it to a certain point).
It's not that I wouldn't know what you wrote down, but thanks for doing so, it's simply a personal stance that I don't need this "humanly possible perfection" for the price of the players having this "externally forceful coach factor". We have a state in SC2 progaming where this is not necessary at the moment and I think players are still practicing "enough" and producing entertaining games. As soon as there will be even more money in it and when it gets more media attention in the West as well (which could still take quite some time), we head towards the state of any professional sport and then it's intrinsic motivation + coaches to produce the best possible outcomes - if you strive for perfection (however it is defined) you have to turn into a machine. It's simply that I don't like it that much because there is still a level of performance which is not that flawless, hinting at 12 hours practice per day, but still very impressive. I couldn't do what players like ThorZain, Naniwa and others are doing atm and still they have no coach and are not such complete machines as Jaedong or Flash. But I can only repeat myself so you don't have to write two pages again: It's not the state we are heading towards should esports become as accepted and sponsored as any other popular media sports. Then it's submitting to the demands and pace set by the "industry" and it is probably intrinsic motivation as well as strict coaches producing what is humanly possible to achieve.
My other point was that the Koreans would sooner or later gain the better of the foreigners (again) in SC2 if the foreign infrastructure and practices are not adapted to the Korean ones (which is happening right now to a certain degree). The real battle will not begin until SC2 is as important in Korea as BW but if that should ever happen, it would theoretically be necessary to introduce such coaches in the foreign progaming houses as well. It's still questionable whether foreign players who were socialized under a different culture would be willing to let themselves be bossed around and restricted in their going out. But well, it will be interesting to see. It will be a matter of the growth of esports and of foreign players to accept that they are now superstars like Phelps, Jaedong or Flash and have to make use of every edge they can (coaches). But I don't really see that happening that soon as the foreign world is not nearly as crazy about esports as the Korean one.
There are quite some factors that have to be met until we can really compare SC2 to BW in Korea and out of Korea, compare the development in level of play in and out of Korea and I'm quite excited to see where we are headed.
|
You're making it sound like having a coach is a bad thing. If you don't like your coach, just look for another, or quit. There will always be ppl who will be willing to walk the extra mile. Why should we restrict. I remember a Bisu interview where he said he had no other hobbies, and I think that's true for most progamers. They would be bored if it weren't for their gaming. And that's why they got into SC in the first place. If Bisu only practiced 8 hours instead of 12, what do you suppose he would do for those 4 extra hours? He would probably spend it watching TV. Gamers at that level are artists. Normal ppl never succeeds in sports. You have to have that drive to improve and if you're content with yourself and having a normal job, you won't reach the pro level, because you don't share the desperation of other pros. The desperation of finding something meaningful in your life.
|
For top SC2 players I think it's more about the quality of practice they put in rather than the quantity. I highly doubt whether more than about 8 hours per day is beneficial. If I were a progamer I'd spend a couple of hours laddering, but most of my time studying the game, planning strategies and also using focussed practice in order to improve specific parts of my game (like tiny macro changes or something).
Practicing when you are fatigued is counter productive, and also practicing so much that you lose motivation and burn out is also a danger. It's really a fine art, which is what professional coaches in all sports are paid for.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
