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What if StarCraft were a game of complete information?
One of the things which ordinarily separates StarCraft from games like Go and Chess (besides that it is played in real time) is that StarCraft is a game of incomplete information. There is a certain necessity in StarCraft to act in the fear of information which you cannot confirm. For example, at the start of the game Terran will begin building a barracks before he has even scouted the Zerg base because he has to take into account that the Zerg may be getting Zerglings. Likewise, once the Terran has walled off his main, the Zerg must react to the possibility that Terran may be getting lots of marines, or he may be getting a vulture, or a wraith, or other innumerable possibilities.
What many call 'cheese' is the abuse of this incomplete information. The ability to surprise your opponent because he cannot see everything that you have. Some might say that this adds a certain element of luck to the game, especially in games where build orders were greatly influential to the flow of the game.
You could call this theorycraft, but it I call it planning. I have made a map with map revealers (in other words you can't see cloak and burrow, but you can see everything else), and I am going to play some games on it with your friendly neighbourhood Trozz.
My thoughts for how this will go, or rather, my plans for how I will play this are the following. Army units and buildings will not be constructed for a great deal of time. Much of the early game will be pure economy, because knowing that the opponent is not getting attacking units will give one no pressure to get army units in response. However, at a certain point there are just going to be too many things going on, too many expansions to keep track of, and one of the players is going to chicken out and start getting an army. If the other player notices this in time, he will have a slight lead in economy, if he doesn't he will be very far behind in army. Because of the huge economies and large number of expansions both players have, armies will get very big, very chaotic, very fast, which will be especially interesting in ZvZ.
During the early game harass with drones will be important. building creep colonies on an opponent's base before you have a spawning pool will force zergs to make a choice about whether or not to pull drones to kill it or not. Perhaps just one drone will be necessary since a pool hasn't been build yet, however, a proxy hatchery that presents the threat of a lot of sunkens later will be more difficult to deal with both because of the distance from the main to kill it, and the fact that you are trying to kill a hatchery with drones.
In Terran matchups, it's possible that a player could try to place a barracks where a CC would normally go in hopes that the opponent thinks it's just a normal expansion. Since this is sneaky and my opponent will read it, it probably won't work tho.
Static defence and posturing will be very important in this game, and could see standoffs akin to TvT. A straight up battle of one army vs another will yield predictable results, so it will be important to make attacks undesirable. At very least, a player will always be able to run away from a battle he thinks he can't win (until he is forced into his main and hopefully has more reinforcements than his opponent does).
Drops will be both good because they will know exactly where to go, and bad because the opponent will know where they are coming from. Concentration will be of the utmost importance, forcing the opponent to do so many things that he can't keep track of all your attacks.
Or it will be complete failure and the player with better macro will just dominate. I'm looking forward to finding out.
Map will be Longinus.
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I'd think with the current revealers, you just go protoss and rush for arbiters while playing safe. It is an interesting concept, but I think it would come down to who had the better tactics than macro. Don't plan to end the game early plan for the map being mined out game.
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There was a guy who made a thread about maphacking and it was really interesting to read especially when he talked about the maphack vs maphack games on East.
http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=163773
Hacker vs. Hacker funfest:
The meat of my hacking experience. There are two types of games that result: 2 maphackers playing each other while pretending they do not hack, or 2 maphackers playing with the knowledge that their opponent also hacks and stop trying to conceal their maphackingness. Playing against the first type is just like playing someone with gosu starsense; the better player mechanically usually wins. I enjoyed several games that played out to be the 2nd type; a very, very, VERY good way to practice your mirror matchups and several inherent matchup imbalances manifested themselves when the hacking players are different races.
TvT:
- 13 cc gets destroyed early by rines/vulture rush. Not usually viable.
- Aggression builds such as 2-port, drops, also gets destroyed / countered at the economic loss of the aggressor.
- When both hackers are good, game degenerates into 3 factory vulture battles, sometimes into 1-fact cc standard games if the rush distance is large (3-fact vultures countered by bunker/simcity while getting a faster natural).
- Dropships become mostly useless until late game; split map always results when players are on equal level and victory is decided by a huge 150+ supply tank/gol battle in the center or near an expo.
PvP:
- DT openings never work (unless your opponent goes 3-4 gate). The hacker that puts down that citadel always loses; the opponent simply takes his natural much faster than the DT rusher and makes 1-2 cannons to take the big econ advantage.
- Always stick to 2 gate robotics and the game will be decided by goon/reaver micro. A very good way to practice this matchup, straight up. It’s like having the opportunity to play against Stork or Bisu who’ll almost always punish you for every slight slip-up keeping you constantly on your toes.
Typical game vs another decent maphacker:
we both opened gateway/core/gateway with no zealot, played it like PvT because it was cross-position on Fighting Spirit. He adds 2 gates to threaten a 4-gate all-in, I respond by putting down a citadel, he cancels 2 gateways immediately and sends a probe to natural, I cancel my citadel and send my probe to my natural for a faster expansion (300/4 minerals lost for him, 150/4+100/4 minerals/gas lost for me so faster natural!). We both get our robotics and pump goons off 4 gateways, then I take a faster 3rd and eventually my slight macro advantage compounded and he lost the big reaver/goon battle in the center.
ZvZ:
- This matchup is so lols when playing between hackers. Late game hive tech is guaranteed every game.
- Starts with both players 12 hatching, then triple hatching, then quadruple hatching, then... I’ve played a game where my opponent and I both 6 hatched before pool taking 3 expos each, then messaging each other “lol... pool time agreed?” before finally getting a pool down.
- The first attacking unit is made when ALL expansions on the map are taken and ALL bases are saturated with most tech building present/upgradings researching, usually 10 minutes into the game. After all, the first person to make attacking units before getting more hatcheries/drones take the econ disadvantage; your hacking opponent can simply put down 1 sunken and make 2 more drones for those lings that you’ve made.
- Epic late game 200/200 muta/hydra/devourer/guardian/ultra battles result, usually the person with a more vigilant watch on his opponent tech switches to a better unit combination wins.
LOL game played:
My opponent 5 hatches before pool, I 6 hatch before pool. Put me on the defense with a slight economic lead, which was enough to even out the game because his macro was slightly better. We both get main + natural gas, lair, and a spire. He didn’t save larva so neither did I; instead we drone whored like mad and took 5 bases each splitting the map. I made 2 lings at one point by accident which prompted him to make 4 lings, which prompted me to add 4 more which prompted him to make another 6... and the cycle repeats until we both have 2 control groups + 1 sunken at each expo, but neither of us decided to attack as that lone static defense would have decided the ling battle and put the aggressor at a disadvantage. From there, we each made 3 spires – 2 for constant upgrades at almost identical timings and another one ready to be morphed into a greater as soon as hive was done while pumping out mutalisks non-stop, and again neither of us attacked as we both down a spore colony at each expansion. From there, we each made around ~70 devourers, and from there he slipped up and forgot to gas one of his expos and I had ~10 more mutalisks than him which won me the huge air fight. Coldwar in starcraft at its finest.
PvT/TvP:
- Against a non-maphacker, 12 nex works every time due to the fact that every terran early game rush against the 12 nex is defensible in the Protoss’ economic favour. Against a hacking terran however... there is a ONE build that counters 12 nex perfectly, every time that leaves the protoss in worse economy. Namely, when T sees that you don’t make your gateway on 10 supply, he’ll simply send an scv right outside to your natural (not close enough to have the building SCV to be harassed by probes) and proxy a factory, while maintaining constant 1 rax marine pump to bunker up your natural with ~4 SCVs. 6 probes+1zealot wins against 5 SCVs+2 marines, but loses when a vulture arrives shortly which leads to sniped probes, and lost nexus before your range is even near completion.
- With that said, the only option is to play 1 gate standard opening vs T. However, T can then read your gateway count, and choose to siege expand/strong FD depending on your whether you 1 gate expo’ed, 2 gated, or 2 gate robo’ed. Econ advantage for the terran is almost a certainty.
TvZ/ZvT:
- Pretty even matchup when both players maphack. T 13cc’s, Z responds with 3 hatch before pool. Advantage goes to Terran in midgame however; No need for scans if Z goes mutas and either 3-4rax to deny third with the minerals saved from scans, or 3 rax pressure with no turrets against a lurker opening while teching up to 2-fact tanks and vessels. Usually, save from a perfect sandwich (which shouldn't happen, since T can see the whole map...) T deathball will roll the Z's expo before consume is done.
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On May 10 2011 06:32 Boblion wrote:There was a guy who made a thread about maphacking and it was really interesting to read especially when he talked about the maphack vs maphack games on East. http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=163773Show nested quote +
Hacker vs. Hacker funfest:
The meat of my hacking experience. There are two types of games that result: 2 maphackers playing each other while pretending they do not hack, or 2 maphackers playing with the knowledge that their opponent also hacks and stop trying to conceal their maphackingness. Playing against the first type is just like playing someone with gosu starsense; the better player mechanically usually wins. I enjoyed several games that played out to be the 2nd type; a very, very, VERY good way to practice your mirror matchups and several inherent matchup imbalances manifested themselves when the hacking players are different races.
TvT:
- 13 cc gets destroyed early by rines/vulture rush. Not usually viable.
- Aggression builds such as 2-port, drops, also gets destroyed / countered at the economic loss of the aggressor.
- When both hackers are good, game degenerates into 3 factory vulture battles, sometimes into 1-fact cc standard games if the rush distance is large (3-fact vultures countered by bunker/simcity while getting a faster natural).
- Dropships become mostly useless until late game; split map always results when players are on equal level and victory is decided by a huge 150+ supply tank/gol battle in the center or near an expo.
PvP:
- DT openings never work (unless your opponent goes 3-4 gate). The hacker that puts down that citadel always loses; the opponent simply takes his natural much faster than the DT rusher and makes 1-2 cannons to take the big econ advantage.
- Always stick to 2 gate robotics and the game will be decided by goon/reaver micro. A very good way to practice this matchup, straight up. It’s like having the opportunity to play against Stork or Bisu who’ll almost always punish you for every slight slip-up keeping you constantly on your toes.
Typical game vs another decent maphacker:
we both opened gateway/core/gateway with no zealot, played it like PvT because it was cross-position on Fighting Spirit. He adds 2 gates to threaten a 4-gate all-in, I respond by putting down a citadel, he cancels 2 gateways immediately and sends a probe to natural, I cancel my citadel and send my probe to my natural for a faster expansion (300/4 minerals lost for him, 150/4+100/4 minerals/gas lost for me so faster natural!). We both get our robotics and pump goons off 4 gateways, then I take a faster 3rd and eventually my slight macro advantage compounded and he lost the big reaver/goon battle in the center.
ZvZ:
- This matchup is so lols when playing between hackers. Late game hive tech is guaranteed every game.
- Starts with both players 12 hatching, then triple hatching, then quadruple hatching, then... I’ve played a game where my opponent and I both 6 hatched before pool taking 3 expos each, then messaging each other “lol... pool time agreed?” before finally getting a pool down.
- The first attacking unit is made when ALL expansions on the map are taken and ALL bases are saturated with most tech building present/upgradings researching, usually 10 minutes into the game. After all, the first person to make attacking units before getting more hatcheries/drones take the econ disadvantage; your hacking opponent can simply put down 1 sunken and make 2 more drones for those lings that you’ve made.
- Epic late game 200/200 muta/hydra/devourer/guardian/ultra battles result, usually the person with a more vigilant watch on his opponent tech switches to a better unit combination wins.
LOL game played:
My opponent 5 hatches before pool, I 6 hatch before pool. Put me on the defense with a slight economic lead, which was enough to even out the game because his macro was slightly better. We both get main + natural gas, lair, and a spire. He didn’t save larva so neither did I; instead we drone whored like mad and took 5 bases each splitting the map. I made 2 lings at one point by accident which prompted him to make 4 lings, which prompted me to add 4 more which prompted him to make another 6... and the cycle repeats until we both have 2 control groups + 1 sunken at each expo, but neither of us decided to attack as that lone static defense would have decided the ling battle and put the aggressor at a disadvantage. From there, we each made 3 spires – 2 for constant upgrades at almost identical timings and another one ready to be morphed into a greater as soon as hive was done while pumping out mutalisks non-stop, and again neither of us attacked as we both down a spore colony at each expansion. From there, we each made around ~70 devourers, and from there he slipped up and forgot to gas one of his expos and I had ~10 more mutalisks than him which won me the huge air fight. Coldwar in starcraft at its finest.
PvT/TvP:
- Against a non-maphacker, 12 nex works every time due to the fact that every terran early game rush against the 12 nex is defensible in the Protoss’ economic favour. Against a hacking terran however... there is a ONE build that counters 12 nex perfectly, every time that leaves the protoss in worse economy. Namely, when T sees that you don’t make your gateway on 10 supply, he’ll simply send an scv right outside to your natural (not close enough to have the building SCV to be harassed by probes) and proxy a factory, while maintaining constant 1 rax marine pump to bunker up your natural with ~4 SCVs. 6 probes+1zealot wins against 5 SCVs+2 marines, but loses when a vulture arrives shortly which leads to sniped probes, and lost nexus before your range is even near completion.
- With that said, the only option is to play 1 gate standard opening vs T. However, T can then read your gateway count, and choose to siege expand/strong FD depending on your whether you 1 gate expo’ed, 2 gated, or 2 gate robo’ed. Econ advantage for the terran is almost a certainty.
TvZ/ZvT:
- Pretty even matchup when both players maphack. T 13cc’s, Z responds with 3 hatch before pool. Advantage goes to Terran in midgame however; No need for scans if Z goes mutas and either 3-4rax to deny third with the minerals saved from scans, or 3 rax pressure with no turrets against a lurker opening while teching up to 2-fact tanks and vessels. Usually, save from a perfect sandwich (which shouldn't happen, since T can see the whole map...) T deathball will roll the Z's expo before consume is done.
Man, this was the exact thread it reminded me of.
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EPT
