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Thoughts on National Identity
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SirJolt
the Dagon Knight4011 Posts
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Elsid
Ireland318 Posts
You and I we were probably never oppressed by the "English" the problem i find is in the whole concept of National Identity. There is no actual such thing as "The English", it's a collective and a bit of a stupid or misguided label at that. The anecdote about your friend and his girlfriend is an example of this. He had nothing to do with the past yet some people on this country still see it fit to associate where he was born with our "suffering". It's very peculiar this culture we have. In my eyes it just overcomplicates something simple. We talk about "Our" history as if we owned it. We don't, it is no-ones history it is history. To say it is ours is a bit ridiculous we do not own it. I wasn't there nor was anyone i know there, it is the history of the world not our exclusive history I can't see why people try to make it "Our history of suffering". These are different times, i would encourage people to think without any sorrow of the past it isn't what we are now. Essentially I find it regressive and I think we would do better if we were more progressive. :3 | ||
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SirJolt
the Dagon Knight4011 Posts
On April 30 2011 22:34 Elsid wrote: These are different times, i would encourage people to think without any sorrow of the past it isn't what we are now. Essentially I find it regressive and I think we would do better if we were more progressive. :3 Sorry if I come across as morose, it's not an all the time thing, but there are those times when that part of our culture exerts itself quite strongly. I guess when you're defined by "the misery" for so long it's a bit hard to shake  I definitely agree that it's not something to see in terms of "us" and "them" or to hold over the English or anything like that, and you're right, progressive thinking would be far more positive. Thanks for the upbeat post, it's genuinely heartening  | ||
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jello_biafra
United Kingdom6641 Posts
Nevertheless traditional Scottish language, dress etc. was effectively eliminated under the new British government and the act of union changed Scotland far more than it did England. Gaelic is now only spoken by a small minority and traditional highland dress is pretty much purely ceremonial. So the country is entirely different than it would have been had it stayed independent but in my opinion it changed for the better. Scotland's colonial ventures did not go very well and overall it was a pretty poor country but as part of Britain Scotland kicked ass around the world and invented a shitload of stuff from the educational system that England, France and the United States copied to the pneumatic tyre, the bicycle, tarmac and the steam engine. In addition to this we were now part of the world's richest country. Personally I have no interest in learning Gaelic or wearing a kilt and am glad that history took the course it did. Then again I'm half English so I guess I'm biased. | ||
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moktira
Ireland1546 Posts
Since I moved to England a few months ago however, I now have a much stronger sense of national identity, and when people mention it or comment on my accent I am quite proud of it to say I am from Ireland. I miss being able to throw a few words of Irish in all my sentences and people not to question it. I have no hostility towards the English because of the past of anything but this week however, I am particularly happy to be out of the country, all the hype about the royal wedding is pretty sickening. I would have the same interest in any celebrity wedding or gossip, that is exactly none. | ||
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MoltkeWarding
5195 Posts
SirJolt says that Irish feelings toward England are in light on their own national experience, rather than any interest in the English as such. If this were a relationship between a pair of friends or a married couple, we should say that the relationship were self-indulgent, one-sided and dysfunctional. It is an argument which can never be resolved, because each party will plead on the basis of their own private experiences. The greatest asset for resolving arguments in the moral sphere is not reason, but human sympathy. As for Canada's post-colonial identity, she is almost the prodigal child raised in a happy and loving family. Upon her birth she was the heir of England's laws and literature, in her infancy she received the protection of England's fleets and guns, upon adolescence she was encouraged to develop her own character, and upon maturity set at liberty to follow her own destiny, all with little strife or bad blood. As Kipling wrote: This for the waxen Heath, and that for the Wattle-bloom, This for the Maple-leaf, and that for the southern Broom. The Law that ye make shall be law and I do not press my will, Because ye are Sons of The Blood and call me Mother still. Edit: Yes, yes, don't forget the Scots: with 10% of the British population, nearly 50% shareholder in the British Empire. | ||
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Atom Cannister
Germany380 Posts
I thought some other people would express their opinions too. I find myself often wishing I spoke my own language. That's where my sadness comes from. | ||
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Elsid
Ireland318 Posts
On May 01 2011 20:08 Atom Cannister wrote: I find it odd that this thread attracted such a high proportion of Irish posters. I thought some other people would express their opinions too. I find myself often wishing I spoke my own language. That's where my sadness comes from. I would question why do you want to know the language so much? What is particular about the language that you want to learn it? Is it that you're "irish" and therefore you "should" know how to speak irish? :3 I wouldn't say it's "our" language i'd say it is language. I'm quite indifferent about it, I find the language almost ugly sounding yet there's a finesse when hearing people who're fluent. You know you can always still learn the language | ||
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SirJolt
the Dagon Knight4011 Posts
That and it's a gorgeous language, even the fact that it doesn't really have a "present tense" as we'd understand it is lovely. As far as I remember (apart from saying, "Tá mé˙ag..." Irish just has that aimsir láithreach kind of continuous cycle, "I go (everyday)" sense to it, which is quite lovely That's it for me, not sure about Atom though. I guess there's also the sense of, "Tír gan teanga, tír gan anam," to it there as well. It's strange that there'd be a phrase in Irish that basically means, "A country without a language is a country without a soul," but there it is. | ||
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Elsid
Ireland318 Posts
On May 01 2011 21:59 SirJolt wrote: I'm a passable Irish speaker, nowhere near the fluency I should be, but given how much of our English usage it informs (Hiberno-English being what it is) and how curious our phrasing often is in English, it's really interesting to engage with the structure that informs it all. That and it's a gorgeous language, even the fact that it doesn't really have a "present tense" as we'd understand it is lovely. As far as I remember (apart from saying, "Tá mé˙ag..." Irish just has that aimsir láithreach kind of continuous cycle, "I go (everyday)" sense to it, which is quite lovely That's it for me, not sure about Atom though. I guess there's also the sense of, "Tír gan teanga, tír gan anam," to it there as well. It's strange that there'd be a phrase in Irish that basically means, "A country without a language is a country without a soul," but there it is. I'm not fond of that quote , Pearse was a poet he was romantic about Ireland and quite honestly to me seemed more interested in this view of Ireland than a land with liberty. If you like the language i'd encourage you to learn it, if you love something try it ^^ but in counterpoint I'd say why would I ever want to learn it? I have no use for the language, to me it's a dying language. It is only a language i sprinkle into some english sentences to take the piss. A language that i can't see myself using past the ability of jokes. I've never had any problems speaking English :X :3 | ||
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Atom Cannister
Germany380 Posts
No real reason. I like the sound of it and how it influences how we speak English. | ||
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