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On April 19 2011 03:12 DSun wrote:
An important thing to note is that as much as the AI felt shitty, it never felt random. You could complain about crappy reaver bugs and dragoon clogging, but deep down you knew that if a scarab was pushing into the back of a constantly moving scv, it was going to dud 100% of the time unless the scv stopped or changed directions for the .5 seconds or w/e of impact it needed to detonate; you knew that if the dragoon had been walking alone, it would not have bounced backwards off the rest of your control group. Your units may have gone in the wrong direction when you ordered them around, but they went in the wrong direction consistently, and so when your units messed up the blame always traced back to you. The effect of this is that when you watched two armies clash, you knew that you were actually watching the players and their control, rather than the AI, because it is painfully obvious when someone is just A-moving.
This, AI was consistently bad. With some experience, you can tell when AI will screw up, and how to fix it.
On April 19 2011 03:16 AhhBoxxah wrote:
On a different note, I think the most frustrating thing in BW is the delay you have to have in between mouse clicks/keyboard presses for the actions to properly register. Anyone know what causes this, or is it just the game itself?
I dunno, happens to me occasionally in BW, mostly in 1a2a3a. However, I usually spam it twice just to be sure, so it really doesn't bother me. What really irks me is when it happens in DotA too. If I play invoker, there's a 100% chance of keys not registering when I'm invoking. Pisses me off.
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It was and is horrible.
It's not a problem when you pay attention to it.
It is HUGE when you missrallied some gateway/factory and 1 goon/tank is fucking your whole army over.
Yeah.. You call that newb mistake... I call it bad AI.
There are ways around it, but that does not make the AI better.
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On April 19 2011 03:22 Megaliskuu wrote:
All those people bitching about the AI are probably people who played the game when they were 12 and were really bad at at it, and now they only know sc2. That argument is seriously exaggerated, maybe E lvl iccup players struggle with that, but even d- players are competent enough to control stuff smoothly.
AhhBoxxah are you talking about latency? Cause if you play on iccup or on bnet with latency changer its pretty smooth.
just because there's a workaround doesn't mean it wasn't broken as hell
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On April 19 2011 03:22 Megaliskuu wrote:
All those people bitching about the AI are probably people who played the game when they were 12 and were really bad at at it, and now they only know sc2. That argument is seriously exaggerated, maybe E lvl iccup players struggle with that, but even d- players are competent enough to control stuff smoothly.
AhhBoxxah are you talking about latency? Cause if you play on iccup or on bnet with latency changer its pretty smooth.
Yes of course I play on iCCup or with lan latency, but I don't know if it's completely attributed to that, since I still get it playing on super low latency O_O? Like it's really apparent in like mid game zvp or zvt when I macro hatches over and over, like 5sh6sh7sh8sh9sh etc, and when I move m&m groups a lot in tvz, like 1 click 2 click 3 click, or 1a click 2a click, I don't know if there's an issue when I do something like 1t2t3t.
On April 19 2011 03:24 buhhy wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2011 03:12 DSun wrote:
An important thing to note is that as much as the AI felt shitty, it never felt random. You could complain about crappy reaver bugs and dragoon clogging, but deep down you knew that if a scarab was pushing into the back of a constantly moving scv, it was going to dud 100% of the time unless the scv stopped or changed directions for the .5 seconds or w/e of impact it needed to detonate; you knew that if the dragoon had been walking alone, it would not have bounced backwards off the rest of your control group. Your units may have gone in the wrong direction when you ordered them around, but they went in the wrong direction consistently, and so when your units messed up the blame always traced back to you. The effect of this is that when you watched two armies clash, you knew that you were actually watching the players and their control, rather than the AI, because it is painfully obvious when someone is just A-moving. This, AI was consistently bad. With some experience, you can tell when AI will screw up, and how to fix it. Show nested quote +On April 19 2011 03:16 AhhBoxxah wrote:
On a different note, I think the most frustrating thing in BW is the delay you have to have in between mouse clicks/keyboard presses for the actions to properly register. Anyone know what causes this, or is it just the game itself? I dunno, happens to me occasionally in BW, mostly in 1a2a3a. However, I usually spam it twice just to be sure, so it really doesn't bother me. What really irks me is when it happens in DotA too. If I play invoker, there's a 100% chance of keys not registering when I'm invoking. Pisses me off.
Ah, I just try to press the keys really slowly O_O, or make sure that it registers, because on sc2 it registers all my commands, so perhaps it's not necessarily due to the latency. Perhaps it's my keyboard or something?
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On April 19 2011 03:33 Hawk wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2011 03:22 Megaliskuu wrote:
All those people bitching about the AI are probably people who played the game when they were 12 and were really bad at at it, and now they only know sc2. That argument is seriously exaggerated, maybe E lvl iccup players struggle with that, but even d- players are competent enough to control stuff smoothly.
AhhBoxxah are you talking about latency? Cause if you play on iccup or on bnet with latency changer its pretty smooth. just because there's a workaround doesn't mean it wasn't broken as hell
Better to be broken than to have every single unit in the game move like a school of fish. It's not exactly realism that I'm after, but I do think the bumbling of an army in an RTS is something that adds positive atmosphere to my experience. It just doesn't look right when a whole army is acting like synchronized swimmers, getting 10 from every judge.
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Croatia9517 Posts
On April 19 2011 03:44 AhhBoxxah wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2011 03:24 buhhy wrote:On April 19 2011 03:12 DSun wrote:
An important thing to note is that as much as the AI felt shitty, it never felt random. You could complain about crappy reaver bugs and dragoon clogging, but deep down you knew that if a scarab was pushing into the back of a constantly moving scv, it was going to dud 100% of the time unless the scv stopped or changed directions for the .5 seconds or w/e of impact it needed to detonate; you knew that if the dragoon had been walking alone, it would not have bounced backwards off the rest of your control group. Your units may have gone in the wrong direction when you ordered them around, but they went in the wrong direction consistently, and so when your units messed up the blame always traced back to you. The effect of this is that when you watched two armies clash, you knew that you were actually watching the players and their control, rather than the AI, because it is painfully obvious when someone is just A-moving. This, AI was consistently bad. With some experience, you can tell when AI will screw up, and how to fix it. On April 19 2011 03:16 AhhBoxxah wrote:
On a different note, I think the most frustrating thing in BW is the delay you have to have in between mouse clicks/keyboard presses for the actions to properly register. Anyone know what causes this, or is it just the game itself? I dunno, happens to me occasionally in BW, mostly in 1a2a3a. However, I usually spam it twice just to be sure, so it really doesn't bother me. What really irks me is when it happens in DotA too. If I play invoker, there's a 100% chance of keys not registering when I'm invoking. Pisses me off. Ah, I just try to press the keys really slowly O_O, or make sure that it registers, because on sc2 it registers all my commands, so perhaps it's not necessarily due to the latency. Perhaps it's my keyboard or something?
I don't know, but BW registers keys pretty fast to me. Try making 10 Gateways next to each other and make units of each one. See how much delay is between first and last one or if any Gateway didn't register your command.
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Croatia9517 Posts
On April 19 2011 03:33 Hawk wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2011 03:22 Megaliskuu wrote:
All those people bitching about the AI are probably people who played the game when they were 12 and were really bad at at it, and now they only know sc2. That argument is seriously exaggerated, maybe E lvl iccup players struggle with that, but even d- players are competent enough to control stuff smoothly.
AhhBoxxah are you talking about latency? Cause if you play on iccup or on bnet with latency changer its pretty smooth. just because there's a workaround doesn't mean it wasn't broken as hell
What are you saying, we've been playing a broken game all these years which should've been fixed?
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On April 19 2011 04:45 2Pacalypse- wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2011 03:33 Hawk wrote:On April 19 2011 03:22 Megaliskuu wrote:
All those people bitching about the AI are probably people who played the game when they were 12 and were really bad at at it, and now they only know sc2. That argument is seriously exaggerated, maybe E lvl iccup players struggle with that, but even d- players are competent enough to control stuff smoothly.
AhhBoxxah are you talking about latency? Cause if you play on iccup or on bnet with latency changer its pretty smooth. just because there's a workaround doesn't mean it wasn't broken as hell What are you saying, we've been playing a broken game all these years which should've been fixed?
pretty much, yeah
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The pathfinding and control in BW is perfect in the sense it pretty much never does something by random. Goons will get confused as fuck if you block their path. Scarabs will dot if they fly too far, and they only do half dmg to units running away from it. A mech army is immobile to begin with in the sense that they're slow and tanks has to siege, but also moving a 200/200 mech army across a bridge or up a ramp will for most people be the worst trafic jam ever. Mastering all this is what's so hard, but when you know how hard it is you'll also begin to appreciate how smooth it all seems when it's under the control of a progamer. You'll also find how it's a crucial element (among many) which can separate players skill-wise.
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People exaggerate constantly. Like about Dragoons particularly. But the thing is anyone who's played BW for any amount of time avoids situations where it comes into question, like attack moving 24 goons up a ramp without micro or across the bridges on Destination. You use these things to your advantage. There is the odd annoying bugging out particularly with neutral buildings; But the people who always bring this up are always low level players who probably never played BW seriously in the first place, it's just something they add to the argument every time.
The pathfinding was never broken except not understanding neutral buildings which it wasn't designed to do; Units bug out if you block their path which they do the same to a lesser extent (helps that it's 3d) in SC2. But it's hardly ever unexpected. I think the only one you could say is an example of broken is Infested Terrans prehaps, cause they have a hesitation to their AI which makes them very hard to use, as if they just put the AI for scourge on a ground unit. The goon stopping attack animation was annoying though to be fair.
To me the SC2 units acting like one giant connected pool of liquid isn't a good thing and looks weird and unnatural, i thought the boasting in videos pre-beta about the Zergling AI wasn't even impressive.. i mean why would it even be difficult to code units to move like that now it's in 3D? Infact it actually looked BAD to me. It looked and still does look horribly unnatural and weird. Units like the Thor instant turning and looking like big goofy toys is even worse imo.
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On April 19 2011 03:16 AhhBoxxah wrote:
It's definitely frustrating to deal with the path finding and general unit bugs, like when they get stuck, when you go back to bw after a break or whatever, but once you actually practice, these issues are generally unnoticeable.
On a different note, I think the most frustrating thing in BW is the delay you have to have in between mouse clicks/keyboard presses for the actions to properly register. Anyone know what causes this, or is it just the game itself?
maybe you're referring to the fact that BW doesn't register key presses when either of the mouse buttons are depressed? so when you 1a click 2a click 3a click, if the click lasts too long it won't register when you pressed 2 to select the next group of units. i read someone say that this is the reason progamers tap the mouse buttons with their fingers starting hovering above the mouse (so the mouse is depressed for as little time as possible)
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People complaining about "bad AI" and "bad pathing" need to play some micro wars.
I guarantee your tune will have changed when you realise the joys of being able to outplay someone by controlling your army better.
And really... another thing that puzzles me is that the pathing doesn't even effect low level play anyway it's only when you start to get competitive that it matters. In which case it just becomes another avenue to outplay your opponent. Extremely enjoyable for both players and spectators.
I'm not saying to go and make every unit in SC2 like Brood War because it's just not going to happen. Control just needs more depth because right now it is excruciatingly boring to control units in SC2.
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Ahh yeah... I know what you mean...
I mean, 1v1 BW?
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It's mostly overblown yeah, but I hate how confused goons get on Bluestorm if you screw up a rally point.
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On one hand, I think the shitty AI in BW helped in creating a mechanical handicap that greatly rewarded more skilled players and may have had a subtle effect in how battles worked out.
Nevertheless, I think it's undeniable that some of the pathfinding AI was shitty. It was decent for it's time, and it takes a bit of a learning curve to get used to, but nothing hides the fact that BW AI would be absolutely unacceptable in a modern RTS. No game reviewer or casual gamer is going to be like "the crappy Dragoon AI is great for separating skill levels." They're just going to think that the pathfinding AI is poor and flawed.
I guess the crappy AI works for a game like BW, but I think it's naive to not call for improvements. I would much rather have my SC2 units go straight from point A to point B instead of being like my Dragoons or Goliaths who go out on grand adventures seeking a Triforce or Holy Grail or the fabled "point B."
That being said, I still agree with people saying that SC2 flocking AI is a bit too much and too unnatural. IMO, it works for Zerglings and possibly other Zerg units, but it feels awkward to watch balls of Stalkers, Thors, or marines travel around like that. It just seems that each individual unit in SC2 has a magnetic attraction to each other when they get close which causes the clumping. It does make the pathfinding much smoother, but I think there should be alternatives to the flocking algorithm that should be better to watch and control.
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There were some cool things about BW pathfinding, like the magic box. If you spread tanks beforehand, and told them to move, they would stay spreaded.
Although instead of pushing units like in SC2, they would try to go around it. If you have too many units rallied at your ramp, they would run around in circles trying to get out.
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While the bad AI worked out fine in the competitive world......it doesn't change the fact that it is TERRIBLE. Adding physical handicaps for the sake of handicaps is a terrible way to balance a game. So, sure, BW was fine because that was pretty much the best the AI could do at the time, but any suggestions of making the SC2 AI just as bad, to add another mechanical difficulty factor is just ludicrous. Leave 1998 AI to 1998.
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EPT
