EPTI played a few rounds and had some fun games and such although felt myself still a little frustrated at losses like most would be, I found this more disturbing than frustrating....
Essentially I played a pvt, going 15 nexus against a terran player going 1-1-1. He rallied marines at me and I easily fended it off. He transitioned into a hellion drop which, from my experience playing random, I asstumed he's transition into a banshee play with an expand. At the time though i wasn't aware of the hellion drop but just pushed him back. I moved foward to put more pressure and noticed very little resistance so I kept the pressure on. What came of this was a rather what I consider misconstrued, convoluted, and balance oriented discussion.
After discussing the matter to no end we ended up playing another game. I'm not sure what the point was. He said he'd kill me with a 1 gate robo build against a 14 cc. And while i don't claim this isn't possible, I believe that any dedicated early pressure from the toss player while teching like this will put the toss player too far behind if he's caught out of position or loses too many units. Similar to how he lost the first game by rallying early marines at me.
So what's the point of all this? It bothers me in part that I couldn't effectively communicate my sentiments. And that further we had such a fundamentally different understanding of how the game works. I find myself in this state thinking that I'm rather forward thinking and wanting to be open to other ideas. Likewise I'm sure he is too...but our discussion comes off so heated and
uncompromising becautse I feel we have this fundamental disagreement about how the game functions. And in that, I suppose that could be why we played the second game. To "prove" a point...although there are many other factors I don't think one game would be representative... On the other hand, I felt like our second game was so one sided it seems hard to consider that a tech build can easily punish and "destroy" a fast expand....
Even further I asked why we were playing the second game and his response was that he was going to "kill you with a 1 gate robo" build. Unfortunately I can't upload the second game to the site I normally do because it turns out we played on an altered version of taldarim. but i've enclosed the first replay and our convo below from what i have...
The intermittent part goes along the lines of myself claiming that because both players are investing in the future. Tech or Economy our army sizes at the start won't be very different so when he loses the early rines it's not unnatural that i can pressure him back.
He claims that it is unnatural and that because terran functions completely differently than toss and that going a 1-1-1 build is not a heavy tech investment and so should be able to "punish" a 15 nexus because it's too greedy. Further that losing 3-4 rines isn't that big a deal. I feel the crux of his argument lies in that toss has warp gate and can reinforce pressure easier, but I don't think that would be enough because of the consistent army sizes. After the second game his stance changes to toss being the only race to FE without cutting workers that I just don't understand because i definitely felt like i cut workers and watching the replay i can identify times where i cut workers and considered cutting workers.
My thoughts on the 1-1-1 not being a heavy tech investment is in complete opposition. With a 1-1-1 with 2 gas you're taking 2 early gas, which will weaken your mineral income (the crucial resource for most early terran compositions imo). However here he went for a 1-1-1 with 1 gas. But this also weakens your production I feel because the early gas needed for a factory and starport delays production from the factory and starport. And that you have to hit a good timing with it if you want to pressure and that it's not possible to straight up destroy a 15 nexus type of play or any fast expand type of play with that kind of build unless the other player is over committing to the future game state rather than the current one.
So now why is this a blog? Normally I wouldn't be bothered by these sorts of skirmishes but between an all nighter, finishing tons of school work and an unfulfilling evening I felt I wanted some justification in my views. And in light of that, if such justification is unwarrented I'd gladly like someone to correct me so I can improve my game play. Perhaps someone can better articulate his position? because quite frankly I don't believe it to be accurate...
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/161335-1v1-terran-protoss-taldarim-altar-le
+ Show Spoiler +
You: LOL clearly...if you want to pressure with 1-1-1 go watch tlo
Kodas: he did a hellion marine push vs tyler
lol
You: he waited for his tech to be up and the right timing, not just rally rines
Kodas: tyler didnt 15 nex either LOL
You: no he went for an early tech investment
――――――――――――――――
Kodas: Let me explain the difference to you, teching=greedy 15 nexus/cc/16hatch=EXETREMELY GREEDY and you even held off my "tech harass"
You: -______-
okay
let me put it this way
first off
it's NOT extremely greedy
in fact
16 hatch is SAFER
than 15 hatch
because your pool is up faster
first off
Kodas: 16 hatch was a bad example
You: second
regardless
15 nexus is not that more greedy
in fact i haven't lost to a 3 rax with it
ever
Kodas: just added that because my exp in tvz is 16 hatch vs 1 rax bunker pressure is insta win for me
ok
15 nexus is not that more greedy
You: as opposed to 2 gate robo which i lose to 3 rax a lot
in anycase
Kodas: "15 nexus is not that more greedy"
You: it's diverting away from initial army
Kodas: "15 nexus is not that more greedy"
You: and with defends advantage
Kodas: "15 nexus is not that more greedy"
You: you can't
Kodas: "15 nexus is not that more greedy"
"15 nexus is not that more greedy"
You: ...yes?
you know what? i honestly don't care
i've had a hell of a day
Kodas: we're done here, this is going on teamliquid
You: and you can go lose
to other toss who go 15 nexus
because of your ignorance
Kodas: yea, my ignorance
You: put it up
Kodas: "15 nexus is not that more greedy"
lol
You: sigh go put it on tl
now plz
which thread?
Kodas: the funny pictures
gonna make a gif
You: kk
you should get the whole convo
Kodas: btw, you have atleast what? 750 games as toss?
You: probalby
Kodas: with only 1600 games played last season
170 games won
750*
You: yup
Kodas: so you're not gonna be toss bias at all
You: i spent a lot of time transitioning to playing random...
recognize the amount of custom games i've played..
and how does toss bias have anything to do with what we're discussing?
Kodas: custom games can't fully tracked
be*
You: sure...again idc
go lose to more 15 nexus builds
you're not going to listen to me
no matter what i say
Kodas: defur back to when you said"I feel like toss is the weakest"
I feel the same way, because you are not listening either
You: I FEEL LIKE MY TOSS not toss in general
specifically pvz i feel weak in
i've adressed every point but we have a fundamental disagreement
about how 15 nexus is not greedy and on par in army with a tech build
such as a 1-1-1
Kodas: you can't seriously put them on the same level
You: anyway send me the link for tl be glad to see it
Kodas: here, let me SHOW YOU
go 15 cc
same map
You: again
Kodas: I'll go 1 gate robo
You: it's not
... i didn't say there wasn't race reletivity but sure
i'll go 14 cc
except you're auto declining....
Kodas: expect i'm watching the replay, chill
inv
you understand that?
Kodas has reconnected.
You: to keep up with mules and such -___- w/e it's not worth arguing this any more
i think i've proven my point
and if you can't see that
Kodas: That's just using you're marcro mechanic
how have you proven anything
You: i'm not even going to bother
Kodas: you didn't cut with your toss
You: you just told me
Kodas: and you did with terran
You: 15 nexus 15 gate
Kodas: the normall 14cc timing for terrean is
You: how is there not a cut?
Kodas: 600 before you can normally get your barracks up
You: 600?
Kodas: that didn't happen
6:00
You: i have no idea, i don't 14 cc much
i went
14 cc
14 rax 15 rax
toss you do similar things
15 nex 15 gate
15/16 assim
16/17 gate
Kodas: you didn;t cut with protoss, protoss is the only race that can do that
You: w/e
not bothering
stfu
Kodas: that was I what I said after
You: go put this on TL
i did cut
Kodas: fuck dude your ego is so huge
tone it down
You: you're just stubborn
lol
kk
Kodas: I love it
Kodas: he did a hellion marine push vs tyler
lol
You: he waited for his tech to be up and the right timing, not just rally rines
Kodas: tyler didnt 15 nex either LOL
You: no he went for an early tech investment
――――――――――――――――
Kodas: Let me explain the difference to you, teching=greedy 15 nexus/cc/16hatch=EXETREMELY GREEDY and you even held off my "tech harass"
You: -______-
okay
let me put it this way
first off
it's NOT extremely greedy
in fact
16 hatch is SAFER
than 15 hatch
because your pool is up faster
first off
Kodas: 16 hatch was a bad example
You: second
regardless
15 nexus is not that more greedy
in fact i haven't lost to a 3 rax with it
ever
Kodas: just added that because my exp in tvz is 16 hatch vs 1 rax bunker pressure is insta win for me
ok
15 nexus is not that more greedy
You: as opposed to 2 gate robo which i lose to 3 rax a lot
in anycase
Kodas: "15 nexus is not that more greedy"
You: it's diverting away from initial army
Kodas: "15 nexus is not that more greedy"
You: and with defends advantage
Kodas: "15 nexus is not that more greedy"
You: you can't
Kodas: "15 nexus is not that more greedy"
"15 nexus is not that more greedy"
You: ...yes?
you know what? i honestly don't care
i've had a hell of a day
Kodas: we're done here, this is going on teamliquid
You: and you can go lose
to other toss who go 15 nexus
because of your ignorance
Kodas: yea, my ignorance
You: put it up
Kodas: "15 nexus is not that more greedy"
lol
You: sigh go put it on tl
now plz
which thread?
Kodas: the funny pictures
gonna make a gif
You: kk
you should get the whole convo
Kodas: btw, you have atleast what? 750 games as toss?
You: probalby
Kodas: with only 1600 games played last season
170 games won
750*
You: yup
Kodas: so you're not gonna be toss bias at all
You: i spent a lot of time transitioning to playing random...
recognize the amount of custom games i've played..
and how does toss bias have anything to do with what we're discussing?
Kodas: custom games can't fully tracked
be*
You: sure...again idc
go lose to more 15 nexus builds
you're not going to listen to me
no matter what i say
Kodas: defur back to when you said"I feel like toss is the weakest"
I feel the same way, because you are not listening either
You: I FEEL LIKE MY TOSS not toss in general
specifically pvz i feel weak in
i've adressed every point but we have a fundamental disagreement
about how 15 nexus is not greedy and on par in army with a tech build
such as a 1-1-1
Kodas: you can't seriously put them on the same level
You: anyway send me the link for tl be glad to see it
Kodas: here, let me SHOW YOU
go 15 cc
same map
You: again
Kodas: I'll go 1 gate robo
You: it's not
... i didn't say there wasn't race reletivity but sure
i'll go 14 cc
except you're auto declining....
Kodas: expect i'm watching the replay, chill
inv
you understand that?
Kodas has reconnected.
You: to keep up with mules and such -___- w/e it's not worth arguing this any more
i think i've proven my point
and if you can't see that
Kodas: That's just using you're marcro mechanic
how have you proven anything
You: i'm not even going to bother
Kodas: you didn't cut with your toss
You: you just told me
Kodas: and you did with terran
You: 15 nexus 15 gate
Kodas: the normall 14cc timing for terrean is
You: how is there not a cut?
Kodas: 600 before you can normally get your barracks up
You: 600?
Kodas: that didn't happen
6:00
You: i have no idea, i don't 14 cc much
i went
14 cc
14 rax 15 rax
toss you do similar things
15 nex 15 gate
15/16 assim
16/17 gate
Kodas: you didn;t cut with protoss, protoss is the only race that can do that
You: w/e
not bothering
stfu
Kodas: that was I what I said after
You: go put this on TL
i did cut
Kodas: fuck dude your ego is so huge
tone it down
You: you're just stubborn
lol
kk
Kodas: I love it
EDIT: To be clear in the second game I was playing terran and 14 CC'd against his 1 gate robo play. Also, I realize i change motives in this piece but bear with me please. The two parts being, I find this problem of communication disconcerting and also want advice or criticism of my viewpoint on the game.
Thanks
