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On March 24 2011 01:22 konadora wrote:Show nested quote +On March 24 2011 01:05 Hawk wrote:On March 24 2011 00:32 konadora wrote:
just another bit of info that my mom just told me:
the broker apparently didn't give a copy of the contract to my dad, and now he's not answering calls, nor is he willing to give a copy of the contract over to my dad. I don't understand why you're still accepting advice from people that have no understanding of law, let alone the specific laws that govern your country. Find a different lawyer if you feel yours is bad enough that you feel inclined to get input from the internet. shit, if this is gonna have legs in a court of law, probably the last thing you want to do is go blabbering about it on a public forum i didn't meet my dad's lawyer, so i have no idea about his capabilities. but i think the notion of helping here is great, but realistically it's gotten a bit messy. i was just trying to see if i can do anything to help my dad in any way. though the lawyer should have covered everything. thanks for the responses guys, i'll ask my dad to go through the options here and see if the lawyer has already covered all these. thanks a lot once again.
You're only gonna give your dad bad advice, or you're going to piss off your dad's lawyer by interjecting with dumbass, misinformed opinions. You've never seen those joke rate signs in mechanic shops '$80/hr normal, $100 if you tried DIY, $150 if you're gonna sit and give your opinion?' Having someone try to tell you something they read on the internet is annoying as shit.
There is absolutely zero positive that comes of this thread for you
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No worries as long as you produce proof that the bank didnt give you any actual loan.
As regards the initial payment made to the broker, Id say you have a strong case but it might be worth your while to make an outofcourt settlement saying that he can keep the sum.
If your dad is a simple guy who doesnt have any political connections, I suggest he try the least dangerous way out of this. Shit could get dangerous real fast.
...Or maybe Im just thinking from an Indian perspective... Hopefully brokers in Singapore are less strongarmed than brokers are over here! 
GL.
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Calgary26003 Posts
On March 24 2011 01:51 Hawk wrote:Show nested quote +On March 24 2011 01:22 konadora wrote:On March 24 2011 01:05 Hawk wrote:On March 24 2011 00:32 konadora wrote:
just another bit of info that my mom just told me:
the broker apparently didn't give a copy of the contract to my dad, and now he's not answering calls, nor is he willing to give a copy of the contract over to my dad. I don't understand why you're still accepting advice from people that have no understanding of law, let alone the specific laws that govern your country. Find a different lawyer if you feel yours is bad enough that you feel inclined to get input from the internet. shit, if this is gonna have legs in a court of law, probably the last thing you want to do is go blabbering about it on a public forum i didn't meet my dad's lawyer, so i have no idea about his capabilities. but i think the notion of helping here is great, but realistically it's gotten a bit messy. i was just trying to see if i can do anything to help my dad in any way. though the lawyer should have covered everything. thanks for the responses guys, i'll ask my dad to go through the options here and see if the lawyer has already covered all these. thanks a lot once again. You're only gonna give your dad bad advice, or you're going to piss off your dad's lawyer by interjecting with dumbass, misinformed opinions. You've never seen those joke rate signs in mechanic shops '$80/hr normal, $100 if you tried DIY, $150 if you're gonna sit and give your opinion?' Having someone try to tell you something they read on the internet is annoying as shit. There is absolutely zero positive that comes of this thread for you
I have one experience with this. During the BP gulf disaster, a lot of internet "engineers" came out of the woodwork to explain how they would fix the problem easily, not understanding things like what pipeline pressure is or how pumps actually operate. It was extremely annoying to read people calling BP engineers idiots and giving their potential solutions filled with innumerable holes.
I assume this is the same. Get a lawyer and tell him about the situation and what you need, but don't tell him about the law.
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On March 23 2011 21:35 konadora wrote:
The legal system is there for one purpose: to prevent the society from causing shit and protecting it.
But it also happens to protect those that do not deserve it. Contracts, when signed by unsuspecting victims, protect the scammers. There is no reasoning, just what is written on black and white.
And that is exactly what happened to my dad.
My dad's english has never been great. I used to always think that he couldn't be someone who graduated from MIT, with his standard of English. ( Yes, he did graduate from MIT, truth. ) He has also always been a giver, never really demanding much. He would take whatever hardship by his stride and keep it all to himself, which doesn't feel so great for anyone once others find out what he's going through.
Just tonight, my dad sat me down and started talking to me. He always do, but today was different. It was all serious.
Over the next thirty minutes, he described how he got scammed by a broker, whom his lawyer suspects is working with the bank to pull it off. In a summary:
- Broker offers to grant him a loan of X amount from "A" bank
- Dad signs contract, with the condition that the broker receives certain percentage of that loan once it is approved.
- Bank sends approval letter.
- Broker starts demanding for his amount, BUT the amount he demanded was less than what we are supposed to give him. (Around few hundred bucks less)
- Bank sends loan cancellation letter, with reasons stating that my dad's company's turnover does not mean the requirement to get the X amount of loan. (Question is, why didn't the bank check this before sending the approval letter?)
- Dad requests for return of money.
- Broker responds verbally (no written notes/contracts) by saying that he'll get another bank to loan the X amount.
- Months pass, no response.
- Dad "fires" him.
- Few months later, broker sends a court letter to dad, telling him to "pay off the remaining amount" plus the legal fees.
- Dad reports case to police, police says no fault.
- Dad reports case to prosecutors. Prosecutors say the broker has violated nothing in the contract, and that if taken to court, my dad will lose as he has broken one of the agreements (he did not pay the full amount), plus he'll be fighting against a major bank.
Now, TL. I really have no idea how my dad is supposed to win this case and claim back his money. It's a really huge sum of money, which I shall not disclose. But my dad, mom and I (my sister's in China on an attachment course, she does not know yet) are feeling so upset yet helpless over this. Odds are definitely not in our favor. Of course, legally speaking, my dad is at fault because he didn't pay up the full amount. But really? Apply some basic common sense and reasoning and I'm pretty sure we can all agree on who's the one at fault. The thing is, I don't know how to translate this to legal terms.
Anyone, law student or not, if you can provide some help that tip the case in our favor even by a fraction of a margin, I'd be grateful.
Unfortunately you can't translate that into legal terms. It doesn't matter how wrong you think it is or how fucking awful it seems in court, you have to go by facts. If the contract states something, then most likely it will hold.
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Along with several others, I also think it'll be pretty hard, if not impossible to get proper help over here.
Even if we were all well-versed in Singapore law (which most of us aren't), it'll be hard for us to say anything that'll be very accurately helpful because we have never seen the contract or know what details are in it. Hopefully your official lawyer will be able to find a way out/find a similar case that happened before to help your cause.
Anyway, for those that are interested to know, Singapore's legal system is indeed based on the English common law tradition.
To the guy above me - To be fair to the law system though, it is pretty just most of the time. It does not always follow exactly whatever is in the contract, because in some cases the terms of some contracts are just too unfair if followed exactly.
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On March 24 2011 02:17 Chill wrote:Show nested quote +On March 24 2011 01:51 Hawk wrote:On March 24 2011 01:22 konadora wrote:On March 24 2011 01:05 Hawk wrote:On March 24 2011 00:32 konadora wrote:
just another bit of info that my mom just told me:
the broker apparently didn't give a copy of the contract to my dad, and now he's not answering calls, nor is he willing to give a copy of the contract over to my dad. I don't understand why you're still accepting advice from people that have no understanding of law, let alone the specific laws that govern your country. Find a different lawyer if you feel yours is bad enough that you feel inclined to get input from the internet. shit, if this is gonna have legs in a court of law, probably the last thing you want to do is go blabbering about it on a public forum i didn't meet my dad's lawyer, so i have no idea about his capabilities. but i think the notion of helping here is great, but realistically it's gotten a bit messy. i was just trying to see if i can do anything to help my dad in any way. though the lawyer should have covered everything. thanks for the responses guys, i'll ask my dad to go through the options here and see if the lawyer has already covered all these. thanks a lot once again. You're only gonna give your dad bad advice, or you're going to piss off your dad's lawyer by interjecting with dumbass, misinformed opinions. You've never seen those joke rate signs in mechanic shops '$80/hr normal, $100 if you tried DIY, $150 if you're gonna sit and give your opinion?' Having someone try to tell you something they read on the internet is annoying as shit. There is absolutely zero positive that comes of this thread for you I have one experience with this. During the BP gulf disaster, a lot of internet "engineers" came out of the woodwork to explain how they would fix the problem easily, not understanding things like what pipeline pressure is or how pumps actually operate. It was extremely annoying to read people calling BP engineers idiots and giving their potential solutions filled with innumerable holes. I assume this is the same. Get a lawyer and tell him about the situation and what you need, but don't tell him about the law.
Yeah I can only imagine how fun that was haha. I work in media. I get fits when dumb people talk about journalism ethics and bias in the media, blah blah blah.
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I'd mostly agree with Chill and Hawk here, however, if you really would like an opinion from TL, maybe check the man power thread (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=84245 ) , d1v is listed as doing contract law, while in Europe, he can maybe tell you something less ill-informed than the rest of us.
Good Luck and I hope everything goes well for your family!
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the only way this thread can help you is if a lurker here is an excellent lawyer, who is familiar with singaporean law and is currently in singapore, so you can meet with and discuss the case in detail
since i am not that person, the best i can say in this thread is good luck and i wish you all the best. sounds like a frustrating situation to be in.
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I don't know why it is an issue if the broker demands less than the desired amount, other than the fact that you shouldn't pay the amount.
I think you'll have a case by arguing that not receiving the bank loan amounts to a rejection of the bank loan, in which your Dad does not need to pay the broker. Since the contract states that you'll have to pay him the % only upon approval.
If you feel that this is a scam, you have the burden of proof to show that the broker collaborated with the bank or whoever. This situation will be quite difficult and it may be extremely costly to proceed in this direction.
I've studied basic business law, inclusive of contract law. A lot would depend on the contents of the contract which your dad signed. If your dad really feels that the contract terms are not what it seems to be and the broker doesn't deserved to get paid (I feel he doesn't), then just don't pay. He'll probably take you to court though, but a sufficiently strong stand should suffice.
*Note: Please ensure that you have a case in the first place, it probably is better to leave things to your dad's lawyer, especially if you can't part with crucial information such as the terms of the contract.
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Seems kinda bogus to me. You sign a contract to give a percent of a loan to a broker. Money was never received. Broker demands percent?
What kind of retarded contract was it?
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If you really want to help, instead of trying to find law advice online I suggest you either try to find lawyers online or try to do background checks on this guy or this bank and see what kind of facts you can get up. Law is not so easily boiled down, but maybe you can find some ammunition for your father or your father's lawyer to work with in terms of unethical behavior, if you feel that is actually the issue.
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If there really is a lot of money at stake, the best advice anyone on this thread can give you is to hire a good Singaporean lawyer . . .
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EPT
