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talking about brackets on ustream for a while.
Honestly, I've been trying really hard not to rag on NASL. I want this to be a good idea, and I want it to succeed. I went into it believing that the people involved(Russell Pfister and Xeris, namely) were basically the right kind of people for the job. At the very least Incontrol would be dedicated to making it work.
But I just don't have much faith now. The video apps were a good idea but other than that, I just can't really name anything that they got right. The announcement of the tournament sucked. The website is some first semester of web design crap. The format for selecting players(ie having an invitational instead of an open tournament) annoys me. The player selection itself is kind of suspect so far, and when they released the rules they had at least two bad rules that they ended up having to reverse(good on them for doing so, granted). The announcement of the first group of players was botched.
Other than the app videos, there's no significant hype. Every time I see "NASL" I don't feel excited, I just feel worried about another bad decision or botched announcement.
Then I look at TSL. A couple of forum admins and community members come together and every god damned piece of content is amazing. Everything. It almost reminds me of how the King of the Beta tournament was the best produced tournament from the end of the beta until the start of the GSL(maybe even until the ro8 of the first GSL) and it was basically thrown together by a couple of guys with no experience.
Please don't make me sad, NASL. I want it to work. 
  
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What two rules did they reverse?
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-Limited numbers of Koreans(they claimed that this wasn't really a rule, but the way NASL was presented at first heavily implied it)
-Max 5 players per team
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TSL is so awesome that it overshadows lots of things. I wouldn't worry too much until it starts, just be glad on how awesome TSL is ^^
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Just wait until it starts then you can start judging. It's pretty early, but I think the league itself should be awesome.
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On March 23 2011 08:29 ThE_OsToJiY wrote:
Just wait until it starts then you can start judging. It's pretty early, but I think the league itself should be awesome.
I hope so, but given what's happened so far, if season 1 rolls around and has a ton of issues and they say "Yeah, sorry, this was just a preview for season 2 so tune in for that it'll be awesome" I'm going to be a very disgruntled consumer.
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On March 23 2011 08:29 ThE_OsToJiY wrote:
Just wait until it starts then you can start judging. It's pretty early, but I think the league itself should be awesome.
yes we don't even have all the info yet don't hate just to hate.
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I do think the league is going to be well produced and provide many great games. However, I find it impossible to believe that they will actually profit from it.
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What players do you think are suspect?
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On March 23 2011 08:35 Zorkmid wrote:
What players do you think are suspect?
Probably the ones that are not Koreans since it seems to be what's upsetting everyone.
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On March 23 2011 08:35 Zorkmid wrote:
What players do you think are suspect?
Mainly I don't think Catz or Kawaiirice have displayed the kind of impressive results that I'd expect from a league looking to invite the top 50 players in the world. To a lesser extent Haypro and Cruncher but I'm going to not criticize those because with Cruncher they may have just invited all the TSL qualifiers and with Haypro... well, the internal TL tournament was pretty impressive. He also showed a lot of skill vs Ganzi, a lot more than some other players I can think of.
The invite list so far would be boring but pretty much immune to my criticism if it were the top 50 players in NA/EU and not just the best in the world. I don't think their support for Koreans is as great as it ought to be to hold a best-in-the-world type of tournament so far. I mean, they even said that they were going to contact Korean teams, and apparently didn't do it, or at least they didn't before the application deadline, after which point the teams that applied(FOX, Startale, oGs, and one player from SlayerS) did it on their own. That's worrying, is all I'm saying.
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i would rather have nasl than no nasl at all. it's just another tournament to look forward to, what's bad about that? also it hasn't started yet.
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On March 23 2011 08:42 Diglett wrote:
i would rather have nasl than no nasl at all. it's just another tournament to look forward to, what's bad about that? also it hasn't started yet.
What's bad about it is that I feel they've been sloppy every step of the way so far and I want them to take it easy and get things right. It's the little bit of extra care that makes the difference.
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before we get another topic derailed by "well atleast their trying/havent seen you do better/why dont you give them a chance". the only reason people are being so critical of the NASL from day one is that this is the western scenes big chance to break out into the mainstream. people are 'upset' because they care.
the only thing that worries me is how the players are selected. looking through the nasl voting page, theres some really "bad" players added to the list by the nasl admins themselves, implying they have atleast a reasonable chance, but then alot of top top europeans have had to be added by random people visiting the site. this on top of incontrol showing a complete lack of any knowledge of the european scene multiple times on stotg really has me worried that we're gonna see a huge american bias in the selection.
as harsh as this sounds im gonna be hugely disappointed if incontrol himself is placed into the league, but im 99% sure he will be. i personally wouldnt put him in the top 50 in the west, let alone the world; and if hes gonna be putting a decent amount of his time into casting i cant bet on him improving before the start of this years tourney season.
on kawaiirice specifically, i think if anyone has seen his play recently, hes been hugely impressive, the only reason it hasnt won him titles is that hes improved so much during the tourney downtime; hes looking like a beast just as the right time
ninja edit:
On March 23 2011 08:57 Kennigit wrote:
I have lots of concerns/potential criticisms too, but i think its best to see what the broadcast/league is actually like before making forming a concrete opinion. Wait it out.
while this is true, would you say that the 5 player per team rule is also something that we should of "waited out"? the rule got flamed to shit because it appeared to be designed almost specifically to piss of team liquid. if people dont raise concerns now then theres no hope for season 1.
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On March 23 2011 08:40 Turgid wrote:Mainly I don't think Catz or Kawaiirice have displayed the kind of impressive results that I'd expect from a league looking to invite the top 50 players in the world.
Yeah cause beating players like Ret bo3 isn't any sort of testimony to your skill or anything.
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Kennigit
Canada19447 Posts
I have lots of concerns/potential criticisms too, but i think its best to see what the broadcast/league is actually like before making forming a concrete opinion. Wait it out.
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On March 23 2011 08:57 Kennigit wrote:
I have lots of concerns/potential criticisms too, but i think its best to see what the broadcast/league is actually like before making forming a concrete opinion. Wait it out.
Ye my thoughts exactly.
Don't grade the test before it's handed in.
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I wrote a rant on the thread about this, that you summed up perfectly in this blog. As far as the resources available go..every moment of this tournament should be polished and worth my excitement. Everything they've actually had to physically produce has came out looking half-assed and lackluster.. They need to put some love into this thing and make it magical..
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You seem to be down playing the amount of work that goes into TSL. They put such a ridiculous amount of work into that tournament and people don't seem to realize this. They start planning months and months ahead getting everything sorted and once it starts they work non stop to make sure it runs as smoothly as possible.
It's no wonder that it is/was always one of the best (if not the best) non-korean sc1/sc2 tournaments with all the shit they have to do and the amount of knowledge and experience that the organizers, writers and video makers have.
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On March 23 2011 08:57 Kennigit wrote:
I have lots of concerns/potential criticisms too, but i think its best to see what the broadcast/league is actually like before making forming a concrete opinion. Wait it out.
Honestly, I don't think it's jumping the gun at all to express concerns based on what we've seen so far. I'm not PukinDog. I haven't made any claims about NASL shitting on western esports or anything like that. I'm saying that the content released so far has been problematic and that's very worrying; it's also done a poor job of hyping me up. It seems reasonable to me to be worried.
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
On March 23 2011 08:56 turdburgler wrote:before we get another topic derailed by "well atleast their trying/havent seen you do better/why dont you give them a chance". the only reason people are being so critical of the NASL from day one is that this is the western scenes big chance to break out into the mainstream. people are 'upset' because they care. the only thing that worries me is how the players are selected. looking through the nasl voting page, theres some really "bad" players added to the list by the nasl admins themselves, implying they have atleast a reasonable chance, but then alot of top top europeans have had to be added by random people visiting the site. this on top of incontrol showing a complete lack of any knowledge of the european scene multiple times on stotg really has me worried that we're gonna see a huge american bias in the selection. as harsh as this sounds im gonna be hugely disappointed if incontrol himself is placed into the league, but im 99% sure he will be. i personally wouldnt put him in the top 50 in the west, let alone the world; and if hes gonna be putting a decent amount of his time into casting i cant bet on him improving before the start of this years tourney season. on kawaiirice specifically, i think if anyone has seen his play recently, hes been hugely impressive, the only reason it hasnt won him titles is that hes improved so much during the tourney downtime; hes looking like a beast just as the right time ninja edit: Show nested quote +On March 23 2011 08:57 Kennigit wrote:
I have lots of concerns/potential criticisms too, but i think its best to see what the broadcast/league is actually like before making forming a concrete opinion. Wait it out. while this is true, would you say that the 5 player per team rule is also something that we should of "waited out"? the rule got flamed to shit because it appeared to be designed almost specifically to piss of team liquid. if people dont raise concerns now then theres no hope for season 1.
GET SOMEEEEEEEEEE
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On March 23 2011 08:58 LuckyFool wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2011 08:57 Kennigit wrote:
I have lots of concerns/potential criticisms too, but i think its best to see what the broadcast/league is actually like before making forming a concrete opinion. Wait it out. Ye my thoughts exactly. Don't grade the test before it's handed in.
Well he's just airing his to-date thoughts on how it's gone. Hence the blog post rather than a normal forum post talking about how it's all terrible etc.
It's valid to criticise because it hasn't exactly been done in the ideal manner, and it's more a "hopefully this isn't the precursor to a failure" rather than an "omg nasl sux", which is both valid and fine for blog musings.
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I feel exactly as you do, OP.
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so you're mad they didn't do EVERYTHING exactly right the first time, even tough they even haven't started?
shame on them.
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On March 23 2011 09:23 Bloodash wrote:
so you're mad they didn't do EVERYTHING exactly right the first time, even tough they even haven't started?
shame on them.
Xeris has hosted a ton of tournaments before. Also, it seems people aren't mad but worried because it has the chance to expand foreign sc2 scene greatly but if it fails it will be a major blow to it.
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^ No, people are just straight up mad that the majority of the invites are not going to be Korean.
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With the announcement of this new IGN Pro league i could see the NASL having a hard time in the future, IGN has huge backing and i hope for the NASL's sake they can work something out with this new pro league otherwise should season 1 of the NASL be a let down in any way we will see players leaving left and right for IGN Pro League. Obviously not enough info has been released about pro league, but there were already reports of friction between a Fnatic member(dont know wich one but i know there are members of fnatic invovled with the NASL) and an IGN member during a tour of the studio for IGN pro league.
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I thought we were talking about my post? I'm not mad.
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On March 23 2011 09:28 cheesemaster wrote:
With the announcement of this new IGN Pro league i could see the NASL having a hard time in the future, IGN has huge backing and i hope for the NASL's sake they can work something out with this new pro league otherwise should season 1 of the NASL be a let down in any way we will see players leaving left and right for IGN Pro League. Obviously not enough info has been released about pro league, but there were already reports of friction between a Fnatic member(dont know wich one but i know there are members of fnatic invovled with the NASL) and an IGN member during a tour of the studio for IGN pro league.
I think we should stop calling it IGN proleague until it's confirmed that it's actually a team league, since right now it appears to only have been called that by a third party because it's a "professional league". Very misleading.
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On March 23 2011 09:27 GenoZStriker wrote:
^ No, people are just straight up mad that the majority of the invites are not going to be Korean.
I guess I should have been more specific in that my comment was in relation to this thread. Sorry.
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On March 23 2011 09:27 GenoZStriker wrote:
^ No, people are just straight up mad that the majority of the invites are not going to be Korean.
I dont think anyone wants to see all korean invites, but i think having 15 korean players and the rest of NA EU would legitimize the league, if they only have a handful of koreans in the tournament (when it seems alot want to participate) then i think alot of people will be dissapointed, between launching the first season and IGN announcing a pro league i can imagine NASL would be sweating pretty hard right now.
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Comparing to the TSL is quite unfair.
The TSL is our home tournament, we users from TL.net get so immersed in the tournament (with bracket contests, cheerfuls, TSL players posting here, Chill and Day9 casting) that we feel we are actually part of it all.
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I find it kind of questionable if incontrol plays in his own tournament as well (though, I'm not sure if anyone knows how involved with the process he really is). I'd like to see it be successful so we'll just have to wait and see.
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Kennigit
Canada19447 Posts
On March 23 2011 09:04 Turgid wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2011 08:57 Kennigit wrote:
I have lots of concerns/potential criticisms too, but i think its best to see what the broadcast/league is actually like before making forming a concrete opinion. Wait it out. Honestly, I don't think it's jumping the gun at all to express concerns based on what we've seen so far. .
You're not jumping the gun, but if after the broadcasts you are wrong, you look just as silly as the people who think it's going to "revolutionize" western esports. It's a great premise, there are some issues, but in both cases people need to step back and calm down.
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I won't feel silly if it turns out nothing we've seen is indicative of the quality of the league, I'll just be enjoying the games 
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On March 23 2011 09:04 iNcontroL wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2011 08:56 turdburgler wrote:before we get another topic derailed by "well atleast their trying/havent seen you do better/why dont you give them a chance". the only reason people are being so critical of the NASL from day one is that this is the western scenes big chance to break out into the mainstream. people are 'upset' because they care. the only thing that worries me is how the players are selected. looking through the nasl voting page, theres some really "bad" players added to the list by the nasl admins themselves, implying they have atleast a reasonable chance, but then alot of top top europeans have had to be added by random people visiting the site. this on top of incontrol showing a complete lack of any knowledge of the european scene multiple times on stotg really has me worried that we're gonna see a huge american bias in the selection. as harsh as this sounds im gonna be hugely disappointed if incontrol himself is placed into the league, but im 99% sure he will be. i personally wouldnt put him in the top 50 in the west, let alone the world; and if hes gonna be putting a decent amount of his time into casting i cant bet on him improving before the start of this years tourney season. on kawaiirice specifically, i think if anyone has seen his play recently, hes been hugely impressive, the only reason it hasnt won him titles is that hes improved so much during the tourney downtime; hes looking like a beast just as the right time ninja edit: On March 23 2011 08:57 Kennigit wrote:
I have lots of concerns/potential criticisms too, but i think its best to see what the broadcast/league is actually like before making forming a concrete opinion. Wait it out. while this is true, would you say that the 5 player per team rule is also something that we should of "waited out"? the rule got flamed to shit because it appeared to be designed almost specifically to piss of team liquid. if people dont raise concerns now then theres no hope for season 1. GET SOMEEEEEEEEEE
Classy and professional as always Incontrol. 
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To be fair, TSL has history on its side versus NASL, which is just starting up.
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The TSL is probably the msot well produced tournament after the GSL. Especially considering the circumstances that it's given as being online, different countries, all the write ups and everything and that it's done by volunteers. It's amazing. It rivals even IEM. So I mean of course it doesn't have as much hype lol
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I don't really get the comparison with TSL. Yes, TSL and other tournaments have had very polished production, but we haven't really seen anything to suggest that NASL production will be anything short of amazing.
I do get your gripes about the tournament format, player choices, and rules. But I do like that some tournaments like NASL are experimenting with how many players they invite; there are definitely upsides and downsides to invite tourneys and qualification tourneys. Besides, iirc isn't there an open component to the tournament as well?
As for the player choices, I can't really comment until I see who they actually invite. Still, its drawing a lot of the right attention from foreign and korean players.
Finally, I'm optimistic about NASL improving their rules. They've already made some changes and I'm sure they will continue to do so over the first few seasons as they gain experience with this kind of event.
Overall I'm optimistic about the NASL and how it will turn out. IMO a lot of the grumblings about the NASL are as a result of it being hyped up quite a bit so far in advance. I guess some people were hoping for something which would take esports to the next level and got a little disappointed. It certainly has that potential, though I would still be incredibly happy if this was just a well run, solid NA league. Only time will tell.
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im pretty concerned, but we need to wait it out as Kennigit said. there is a lot of behind the scenes stuff we simply do not know about.
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I agree. Kawaiirice isn't that good.
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On March 23 2011 09:04 Turgid wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2011 08:57 Kennigit wrote:
I have lots of concerns/potential criticisms too, but i think its best to see what the broadcast/league is actually like before making forming a concrete opinion. Wait it out. Honestly, I don't think it's jumping the gun at all to express concerns based on what we've seen so far. I'm not PukinDog. I haven't made any claims about NASL shitting on western esports or anything like that. I'm saying that the content released so far has been problematic and that's very worrying; it's also done a poor job of hyping me up. It seems reasonable to me to be worried.
I agree fully.
They seem to be rushing into stuff too fast. At first, one would think that the money itself would justify this league to be the best, but with fierce competition (GSL, MLG, ESL, IGN, even smaller events like TSL) their start is quite bad.
Everything in OP stands.
They still got some time, hope it will get better.
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I just wouldn't complain about something that hasn't started yet. Once TSL is done all we'll have major tournament wise is the GSL with a random MLG and Euro tourney thrown in once a month. With the NASL there will be awesome action almost every day of the week. THAT IS EXCITINGGGGGGGGG AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!! =)
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Pretty much agreed. TSL vs that awful showmatch (especially when incontrol rags on everything) is no contest. Their videos and website are something I would expect from a fansite that gets 10 hits a day.
We'll see if the league is any good, though.
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The thing about the showmatch is that NASL seems to want to dissociate itself with it - if that wasn't part of the league, well, first off, that's a missed opportunity, next, why was it so closely associated with the announcement of the league?
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I more or less agree with the OP. The production quality of the TSL is the best I've seen in a while, and even the hype is a lot more than hype for the NASL. When I think of the NASL, I'm reminded of the sub-par website and amateur video on it. I'm not hyped up. What was a good idea, were the NASL application videos. They gave you a rare look at the faces and names of some of our favourite players. The NASL however does need to step up the hype and deliver on the production quality promises.
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Judging by IEM, approximately all Code A and Code S Korean players are better than all foreigner players. The only foreigners showing any sort of success in tournaments with heavy Korean participation are those who are living and training in Korea already..HuK, Jinro, and formerly IdrA. Every other non-Korean who has not lived in Korea and trained for an extensive period of time, or who has only just moved there (Moonglade, Haypro, etc) has posted poor results whenever they have been matched against Koreans.
The Korean training regimen and lifestyle simply can't be beat. 6 months ago, natural ability played into it a lot more, and the gap was smaller, or even nonexistent. Now? It is a very real skill difference. Those playing and training within the Korean system are already better than those who don't, and the TSL is going to bear this out too. And for as long as the disparity between the Korean training setup and the American lack of a training setup exists, the gap will continue to grow until we have the same situation we did in Brood War, where the only professional scene that matters is Korea, and everywhere else is a complete joke where they can't invite Koreans or they get smashed.
note, I am being very careful to describe it as "the Korean regimen" or the "Korean system" because I want to make it very clear that it isn't the Korean players who are inherently better, just their training practises. You can't use IdrA, Jinro, HuK, or any other foreigner who is/has been training in Korea as evidence of foreigner success over Koreans. The only significant tournament where Koreans did not dominate foreigners was Dreamhack 2010, and that was a long time ago.
IEM pretty much proved the dominance of Korea, and the TSL will too.
If the NASL is truly to be a "best in the world" league, its going to need to invite more than half of its players from Korea. And the further down Starcraft 2's life we get, the more Koreans will be flat out better than foreigners.
And if NASL introduces a restriction on Koreans to combat this, all that proves is that they admit "we suck compared to them so we keep them out so we don't always lose".
Its not something I'm particularly happy about, I'd love to see foreigners with more success without having to go and live and train in Korean pro-houses to do so, but it just isn't going to happen, and if you think it will outside of isolated cases (Like LiquidTyler who is unbelievable good despite living essentially a normal life, and ThorZain who managed to take down FruitDealer), you're delusional.
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I'll add that TSL has been fairly good so far in terms of even-ness between Koreans and the rest, although I think that the particular cases we've had have been a little off the mark of a perfect competition between the two. It's still a meaningful result and it definitely encourages more Korean-nonkorean competition.
I also want to re-emphasize that I'm not out to shit on the NASL. I went out of my way to point out something that I liked, the application videos, and that I thought the right kind of people were involved because I want to make it clear that I don't hate this league.
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it's kind of unfair to compare production value of TSL to anything else, I mean you have the best esports minds and most dedicated people in the community working on this stuff. That being said I would really like it if other leagues could come out with similar quality, but there's no way anything is going to beat TSL unless it basically steals the tsl staff lol.
However I do agree, I hope nasl ups its game and produces something worth watching and being involved/hyped for!
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On March 23 2011 10:41 Divinek wrote:
it's kind of unfair to compare production value of TSL to anything else, I mean you have the best esports minds and most dedicated people in the community working on this stuff. That being said I would really like it if other leagues could come out with similar quality, but there's no way anything is going to beat TSL unless it basically steals the tsl staff lol.
However I do agree, I hope nasl ups its game and produces something worth watching and being involved/hyped for!
And on top of that this is the 3rd time they're doing it, so they have tons of experience. I remember quite a few hiccups during TSL1 and TSL2.
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The 'invites' are ridiculous.. it's one thing for the TSL, which invited winners from previous tournaments, but this thing is just starting.
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Forget NASL! We still have IGN's league i expect better and more professional admin from them. just like our very own TSL 
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Hmm..well they should be stepping up their game since IGN is going after this SC2 niche in NA as well...
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+ Show Spoiler +On March 23 2011 10:33 Dhalphir wrote:
Judging by IEM, approximately all Code A and Code S Korean players are better than all foreigner players. The only foreigners showing any sort of success in tournaments with heavy Korean participation are those who are living and training in Korea already..HuK, Jinro, and formerly IdrA. Every other non-Korean who has not lived in Korea and trained for an extensive period of time, or who has only just moved there (Moonglade, Haypro, etc) has posted poor results whenever they have been matched against Koreans.
The Korean training regimen and lifestyle simply can't be beat. 6 months ago, natural ability played into it a lot more, and the gap was smaller, or even nonexistent. Now? It is a very real skill difference. Those playing and training within the Korean system are already better than those who don't, and the TSL is going to bear this out too. And for as long as the disparity between the Korean training setup and the American lack of a training setup exists, the gap will continue to grow until we have the same situation we did in Brood War, where the only professional scene that matters is Korea, and everywhere else is a complete joke where they can't invite Koreans or they get smashed.
note, I am being very careful to describe it as "the Korean regimen" or the "Korean system" because I want to make it very clear that it isn't the Korean players who are inherently better, just their training practises. You can't use IdrA, Jinro, HuK, or any other foreigner who is/has been training in Korea as evidence of foreigner success over Koreans. The only significant tournament where Koreans did not dominate foreigners was Dreamhack 2010, and that was a long time ago.
IEM pretty much proved the dominance of Korea, and the TSL will too.
If the NASL is truly to be a "best in the world" league, its going to need to invite more than half of its players from Korea. And the further down Starcraft 2's life we get, the more Koreans will be flat out better than foreigners.
And if NASL introduces a restriction on Koreans to combat this, all that proves is that they admit "we suck compared to them so we keep them out so we don't always lose".
Its not something I'm particularly happy about, I'd love to see foreigners with more success without having to go and live and train in Korean pro-houses to do so, but it just isn't going to happen, and if you think it will outside of isolated cases (Like LiquidTyler who is unbelievable good despite living essentially a normal life, and ThorZain who managed to take down FruitDealer), you're delusional.
Actually, the training regime of korean pro-houses seems to be pretty lenient in comparison with the Kespa-run system. It is saddening to see such a huge gap between koreans and foreigners, specially north-americans, even when koreans are not training at full capacity. Makes me wonder what's wrong with the daily routine of foreigners pros.
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TBH, while the invites were somewhat disappointing, I feel the biggest problem is the announcement itself. They basically just threw the names on the website, and that was it. I was expecting threads on TL, press releases, elaborately produced videos with discussions on why each player was picked, showing their application videos, etc. Kinda like the TSL bracket show. That sort of content can build up extreme amounts of hype if done correctly.
In any case, maybe these things are coming after all 50 have been announced, so judgment is reserved for now. I just hope that the execution of NASL can match its insane potential.
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I was expecting a small bio of every player, their accomplishments, the video that they made. The whole 5 a day thing lead me to assume it would go down like that, since 50 player bios in one day would be quite a lot to digest
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IGN > NASL anyway, especially with someone like incontrol running it
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On March 23 2011 11:19 AnotherEon wrote:
IGN > NASL anyway, especially with someone like incontrol running it
Incontrol doesn't run NASL.
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On March 23 2011 08:56 turdburgler wrote:
the only reason people are being so critical of the NASL from day one is that this is the western scenes big chance to break out into the mainstream.
Can you elaborate why you feel that way? What's so special about the NASL? (for my thoughts, see here)
There's nothing that baffles me more than people who think that the NASL will finally make e-sports huge but established companies like MLG and ESL who both have professional business structures, hundreds of qualified full-time employees (including sales, PR and bizdev people who do nothing else all day long than bringing e-sports into the mainstream) and much more will not have as much influence. Do you really think it's the prize money that matters?
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I can only think they're trying to not set too high of a standard, so if the first season doesn't get that much popular they can try again with a more polished approach.
That said, the website is the worse I've seen in quite some time. Looks like they aren't even trying.
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Ya, they certainly did not handle the announcement well at all, so rather than tons of excitement, they got tons of criticism, some justified, some not. I am excited, but not as much as I could've been. So, I definitely agree with you on that point. The others... not so much.
The website they have now is purely for the announcement, and they are creating an better website for the actual league: (from the NASL Q&A Thread)
Question: Is the website a temporary solution until we see the results of a few seasons?
Answer:
This is a temporary website (a teaser site). We are building a website!
Whether or not they're selecting the best players is completely subjective. I feel that no matter who they pick, they will have 50 god damned amazing players playing in the league. If a player deserves to be in the league, they have two chances to qualify for the next season.
I'm not sure what you mean about it being implied that there was a hard cap on the number of Koreans that could participate. Unless you can back that up with a source, that's just the way you interpreted their statements. I remember them saying that it wasn't going to be 50 koreans and would be focused on NA and Europe.
I think we should be applauding NASL for changing the 5 players/team rule, rather than criticizing them in the first place. They had their reasons for including that rule, which were good reasons. They just hadn't thought of an adequate solution to it until Tyler and the community discussed it. They listened, and made the change, which is fantastic.
The TSL isn't just a ragtag assortment of random people like you make it out to be. They've done 2 TSLs before, plus plenty of TL Opens and other productions. These guys aren't new to this, that's why TSL is so good.
You could've just talked about how the announcement and its fallout have decreased your excitement, and that you're more excited for all the other tournaments because of that, and I would've been with you. You just seem to be grasping for more arguments that just aren't there.
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^ WOW Well said Mr. Infested Archon. Well said.
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On March 23 2011 11:38 Hoju wrote:The website they have now is purely for the announcement, and they are creating an better website for the actual league: (from the NASL Q&A Thread) Show nested quote +Question: Is the website a temporary solution until we see the results of a few seasons?
Answer:
This is a temporary website (a teaser site). We are building a website!
Temporary in no way means it has to be bad. That's pretty much the worst excuse possible.
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Yeah "temporary website" translates as "we don't have the time to make anything better right now so here's something shitty so you'll get off our backs about a website"
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Calgary25980 Posts
Starcraft has a huge history of talking shit up that then sucks ass. We'll know in the first week if the NASL is for real or not. Until then there's nothing to do but hype and hope.
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
Yes exactly. Since judging GSL in the first week would have been really wise.
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On March 23 2011 12:56 iNcontroL wrote:
Yes exactly. Since judging GSL in the first week would have been really wise.
So you're defending the first week being bad before it's even happened? Great way to start it off
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
lol
You get that from my post?
How about I was arguing we shouldn't judge anything off of a week? Good or fucking bad.
jesus christ.
It's a 3 month tourney.. why would we look at the first week and judge it either way? If it's good they NEED to keep it good. If it's bad they NEED to make it good, am I right?
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why do people seem to want nasl to fail? All this hostility geez.
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Calgary25980 Posts
On March 23 2011 12:56 iNcontroL wrote:
Yes exactly. Since judging GSL in the first week would have been really wise.
The fundamental building blocks of the GSL broadcast haven't changed since the first week. The polish has gone up and the bugs have been worked out nicely, but it's still the same production.
Anyways, I don't know why you wouldn't respond with "We will be ready to kill it" instead of "Other things have been lackluster and improved".
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Calgary25980 Posts
On March 23 2011 13:07 iNcontroL wrote:
lol
You get that from my post?
How about I was arguing we shouldn't judge anything off of a week? Good or fucking bad.
jesus christ.
It's a 3 month tourney.. why would we look at the first week and judge it either way? If it's good they NEED to keep it good. If it's bad they NEED to make it good, am I right?
Inc, you always jump all over shit so quickly dude.
For everyone saying something hesitant or even neutral about the NASL, there's 10 people saying ridiculous shit like it's the future of eSports.
My exact point was let's see what product is delivered before we make any comments on it. Until then let's hope it's amazing and hype it.
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On March 23 2011 13:07 iNcontroL wrote:
lol
You get that from my post?
How about I was arguing we shouldn't judge anything off of a week? Good or fucking bad.
jesus christ.
It's a 3 month tourney.. why would we look at the first week and judge it either way? If it's good they NEED to keep it good. If it's bad they NEED to make it good, am I right?
Well why wouldn't you just respond by saying "We're going to be ready and be fucking awesome!" instead of what you posted?
edit: oh Chill said this 2 posts above. oops
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
On March 23 2011 13:11 Chill wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2011 13:07 iNcontroL wrote:
lol
You get that from my post?
How about I was arguing we shouldn't judge anything off of a week? Good or fucking bad.
jesus christ.
It's a 3 month tourney.. why would we look at the first week and judge it either way? If it's good they NEED to keep it good. If it's bad they NEED to make it good, am I right? Inc, you always jump all over shit so quickly dude. For everyone saying something hesitant or even neutral about the NASL, there's 10 people saying ridiculous shit like it's the future of eSports. My exact point was let's see what product is delivered before we make any comments on it. Until then let's hope it's amazing and hype it.
And my point is give it more than a week.
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A lot of the criticism was on it's proposed policies, and now it's recent player list. A lot were reverted and changed and that's a good thing, but it also drew negative attention to it. Basically the NASL is already going on, just not in the sense that any games have been played. Basically that first day of the NASL is going to have a lot of speculation. Hopefully the way it is broadcasted is nothing like the showmatch because there was so many flaws during that
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Why isn't it hyped? Because it has no history yet and you're not hyping it up yourself.
Try writing something about it. Anything at all to try and add hype. Maybe you'll get what you want.
TSL, the guys have been doing great in getting all sorts of hype in through videos, pictures, and posts. Then, the community adds to it with their own excitements and fan arts. Of course it's going to be hyped. You want it to be hyped. Now do the same for NASL.
As for the product itself, who knows? We'll see it after it comes out. Faith in Xeris though, the dude seems legit.
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On March 23 2011 13:08 LuckyFool wrote:
why do people seem to want nasl to fail? All this hostility geez.
You're bad at reading.
No one here wants NASL to fail. In fact its precisely because they care so much about the idea of it being a success that they point out things that are wrong with it so that they can be fixed.
Personally I think the idea of trying to focus on players that are not the best in a tournament is pointless, so I have little to no interest in the NASL anyway until it inevitably becomes Korean dominated.
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I think it's mostly due to the prestige of the TSL. Until NASL can produce amazing games like TSL2 did you won't have the same feeling...
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On March 23 2011 13:15 iNcontroL wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2011 13:11 Chill wrote:On March 23 2011 13:07 iNcontroL wrote:
lol
You get that from my post?
How about I was arguing we shouldn't judge anything off of a week? Good or fucking bad.
jesus christ.
It's a 3 month tourney.. why would we look at the first week and judge it either way? If it's good they NEED to keep it good. If it's bad they NEED to make it good, am I right? Inc, you always jump all over shit so quickly dude. For everyone saying something hesitant or even neutral about the NASL, there's 10 people saying ridiculous shit like it's the future of eSports. My exact point was let's see what product is delivered before we make any comments on it. Until then let's hope it's amazing and hype it. And my point is give it more than a week.
Why? If you've been planning it this long, it should explode onto the scene. I can understand looking to improve after the first season, but if the first week isn't an example of how good the whole first season will be, that seems pretty nonsensical.
The first week of games, whether you like it or not, will be used to judge how good the NASL will be on an extended basis. It is not as if you have been forced into starting this up before you were ready. Several people have commented that the whole thing seems sort of rushed, with decisions not finalized and changes having to be made on the fly.
That may or may not be true, but the fact remains that, especially after the disastrous production quality of the Jinro/IdrA showmatch, the NASL has to come out with all guns blazing to silence the doubts, and you can't come in here saying "It might suck first week or so, give us a month or so to make it good". Its going to be one of the biggest tournaments in the Western world. It has to be good from the very start.
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On March 23 2011 13:58 Dhalphir wrote:
Why? If you've been planning it this long, it should explode onto the scene. I can understand looking to improve after the first season, but if the first week isn't an example of how good the whole first season will be, that seems pretty nonsensical.
The first week of games, whether you like it or not, will be used to judge how good the NASL will be on an extended basis. It is not as if you have been forced into starting this up before you were ready. Several people have commented that the whole thing seems sort of rushed, with decisions not finalized and changes having to be made on the fly.
That may or may not be true, but the fact remains that, especially after the disastrous production quality of the Jinro/IdrA showmatch, the NASL has to come out with all guns blazing to silence the doubts, and you can't come in here saying "It might suck first week or so, give us a month or so to make it good". Its going to be one of the biggest tournaments in the Western world. It has to be good from the very start.
While ideally you would want something to explode onto the scene, you can never quite tell how something will work till it goes live. I'm sure they thought there show match would be the bee's knee's, it ended up falling short on everyone expectations (after the weeks of announcements before the announcement) but probably showed them a number of area's they could improve upon, same thing could go the the 1st day or 3 of the broadcast of the NASL, I am sure they will do the damnedest to put on the greatest show on earth, and if there are any niggles all they asking is for a week to iron them out.
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On March 23 2011 13:50 Dhalphir wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2011 13:08 LuckyFool wrote:
why do people seem to want nasl to fail? All this hostility geez. You're bad at reading. No one here wants NASL to fail. In fact its precisely because they care so much about the idea of it being a success that they point out things that are wrong with it so that they can be fixed. Personally I think the idea of trying to focus on players that are not the best in a tournament is pointless, so I have little to no interest in the NASL anyway until it inevitably becomes Korean dominated.
I read everything. I'm commenting on underlying tones I feel not only from this thread but from elsewhere in the sc2 community.
And I agree with you I suppose people don't want it to actually fail but people are saying harsh things before a single game has even been played.
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I do think they could have handled the announcement better. So much interest have been put on the applications and they probably could have used that to their advantage. The way they are releasing the names now seems lacklustre imo especially compared to TSL. I think even the Steelseries EU vs NA was kinda more exciting in their announcement of names. Dreamhack Stockholm also has those silhouettes that makes everything kinda mysterious. NASL could have "milked" this a bit more imo as this is actually worth hyping for. However, i am aware that these announcements are certainly not the main point of the leagues at all so it will be unwise to judge them now.
And i kinda think the first week is probably quite important . TSL 3 had such an awesome opening week that it left a very good first impression and ensure that people will follow them subsequent weeks over other tournaments. The way starcraft scene right now, i feel that there are way more tournament than what the average viewers can follow and people will have to pick and choose. Like we saw the very awesome jtv invitational and gcpl final overshadowed by TSL 3 although they were definitely very very high level tournament with sick good prize money.
That is why i think NASL need to start out with a bang to secure the attention. Of course more important than that would be sustaining and improving the quality afterwards. But still, something to keep in mind and i hope NASL will succeed.
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Coming from a non-SC2 follower. You guys expect TOO much. Give it time or SC2's growth will slow even more.
Give any big tournament a chance. Stop expecting too much.
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On March 24 2011 21:47 aimaimaim wrote:
Coming from a non-SC2 follower. You guys expect TOO much. Give it time or SC2's growth will slow even more.
Give any big tournament a chance. Stop expecting too much.
Yeah....SC2 e-sports wise is a looottt more explosive than BW ever was because it had the platform to bounce off of.
More sponsorships, money, viewerships, and tournaments all are things that SC2 is gaining quickly. I think that even if I don't like the game, SC2 deserves some credit for this because I don't remember these things on massive scales happening back in BW.
And in short, expecting too much will make you a spoiled child who expects that SC2 brings him all the pleasure that he wants.
Don't become that child.
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EPT
