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Reading through TeamLiquid, I oftentimes notice that people have wrong assumptions about the current state and development potential of e-sports. In particular, many TL users seem to overestimate the influence of the NASL. Let me try to shed some light on this issue.
When will e-sports finally "happen" in North America and Europe?
It already happens, trust me. You have the professional players, teams and tournaments. MLG and ESL are both companies with millions of dollars and hundreds of people involved. The attitude that e-sports is huge in South Korea and small and underdeveloped anywhere else is obviously a leftover from the old Broodwar days. In the meantime, thanks to games like Counter-Strike, Quake Live and WarCraft 3, there has been constant progress towards a sustainable pro-gaming industry.
However, in the last 2-3 years, there have been some setbacks and the sponsorship money decreased which is why the established organizations don't have too much money to throw at SC2. There are some other relevant factors, e.g. the level of competition is so high that there are no dominating players which is the reason why player salaries are rather moderate at this point - it simply gives you more value to pay 6 excellent players (say: TT1, PainUser, Kas, DieStar, NightEnD, SarenS) than to invest the same amount of money to get IdrA and SjoW.
But where are the pro-gaming houses?
There will never be a similar structure to the one you have in South Korea, simply because there is no necessity to it. Of course, a pro-gamer house is a good environment for a player to further improve, but it does not bring him any extreme advantages. At the same time, maintaining such a house is quite expensive. So if you ask a Western pro-gamer if he'd rather live in a house with his team mates or have 400 $ more on his bank account each month, what will he choose?
After all, the life quality would most likely also suffer while the benefit isn't too big. For instance, in Counter-Strike, where it's actually important to have all players at the same physical location, there are some pro-gaming houses in Europe (most teams rather do month-long bootcamps though, even they feel more comfortable at their own homes).
E-sports needs more full-time players to succeed!
First of all, let's make one thing clear: It's perfectly possible to make a living as a professional SC2 player in North America and Europe. If you belong to the world's best and do a somewhat decent job at promoting yourself, you can live off it. And there are people who do just that. However, it's the same as with the pro-gaming houses: Do players actually need to focus on SC2 100% of their time to have a chance at winning a major tournament? Many successful players study at the same time because it's possible to adjust the time invested into studying so that your performance doesn't suffer (at least that's the case in many European countries, there might be exceptions where studying is always extremely time-intensive). Don't expect that higher prize pools will change this dramatically.
Oh, and it's just the same with the whole "moving to Korea" issue: Most players just don't want to go through all the related trouble just because of the GSL. It's not worth it for them. The GSL didn't even manage to fill their house (which is free for the players to live in), it surprises me time and time again how people think that the cost of a flight ticket is what's holding Western top performers back from competing in Code A. Of course, there are some people who want to try their luck (after all, the GSL is an incredibly prestigeous tournament) but just haven't gotten the chance yet, but it's obvious that you're not going to see all the best players move to Seoul anytime soon.
The NASL is revolutionary.
No. Just no. There is nothing revolutionary about it except that it has a good timing and decent concept. There has been a CPL World Tour with 1 000 000 $ in 2005, there has been an attempt to dumb down esports and bring it on TV by DirecTV in 2007/2008 (it was called Championship Gaming Series and failed horribly due to an awful concept, burning several millions of dollars in the process). MLG and IEM both host tournaments that are on a higher level than what the NASL team will be capable of achieving in their first season - which is not meant to offend them, I'm sure they're going to work their asses off, but they simply don't have the resources to compete with a giant booth at the CeBIT.
One could argue that instead of having such a big prize pool, they might be better off investing the money into human resources and operations, because that would be more beneficial for the development of esports. While some of the things NASL plans to do are quite good, it's far from perfect either. It starts with the whole brand (who even came up with the name North American Star League?) and its presentation which is tailored to the typical TL user - but if you want to turn such an expensive project into a sustainable business, having all TL users support you is not enough, you also need to attract the more mainstream people.
The league concept with the 50 invitations is problematic, too, especially because it ruins the tournament's legitimation (it's no coinsidence that WCG puts so much effort into having qualifiers in all small, unimportant nations - it all serves the purpose to be able to say how many millions of people from how many nations tried to qualify). Sure, the typical TL user won't care that invites were used because he just wants to see strategically interesting games, but you need to broaden the audience. And there are enough people who will, for instance, find the fact that games aren't live to be very disappointing, believe me. Just like it would be beneficial if the prize money was only 95 000 $ but Day[9] was casting and promoting the NASL.
Anyway: Just be aware that 100 000 $ prize money three times a year is a lot of money and there is a reason why MLG and ESL both can't keep up with that. The real challenge isn't setting up something like the NASL, but actually making it sustainable. It will be a tough job to find a business model that will justify such big investments - and there is a chance that iNcontroL and the others fail at it and the NASL joins other ambitious projects like CPL, WSVG, CGS and, at least temporarily, ESWC. I certainly hope they don't, but please understand that there is no guarantee that there will be more than the initial three seasons. And that adding a tournament with a high prize money pool and a great field of participants is a great thing, but it will not make e-sports suddenly become much bigger.
It already grows, just give it some time. It's much better if things are actually well thought out and sustainable than if some guy just decides to make a team with overpaid players and hopes to be able to monetize it one day (just think of what the overly high salaries of MYM.WC3 caused - in case you don't know, it crippled the whole WC3 scene because noone could keep up and eventually SK and others just gave up because it wasn't worth it at all). In any case, the future for e-sports might not have thousands of full-time players living in team houses all over North America and Europe, and SC2 not going to be regularly shown on mainstream TV soon, but things look quite good. You can rest assured your favorite players will have enough incentive to practise hard, teams will get bigger sponsors, there will be some serious transfers going on (with transfer fees and all that good jazz) and the tournaments won't get smaller either.
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There will never be a similar structure to the one you have in South Korea, simply because there is no necessity to it. Of course, a pro-gamer house is a good environment for a player to further improve, but it does not bring him any extreme advantages
Progaming team houses are the reason for why South Korea was miles ahead of the foreign scene in BW... And once the game is better understood, it will be the reason it will be miles ahead of the foreign scene in SC2. Idra's and Jinro's successes would not have been as notable, had they trained in the US and Sweden.
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Where is your credibility to say that a practice house offers no advantages. Have you ever lived in one and practiced?
Also, it would be much easier to read if you spread out your paragraphs.
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You really seem to be putting the cart before the horse here. We haven't seen what the NASL is capable of yet production wise. This seems like a subtle "Bash the NASL" thread.
You call these "truths" and yet you seem to not have a lot of evidence to back up your claims. And a lot of what you're saying is either already common knowledge or predictions that have yet to come true at all.
You say there are no pro-gamer houses in North America or Europe, and yet CatZ and Drewbie have started one for ROOT in Florida and TLO is looking to start one in Sweden. Houses are a necessity in order to stay at the top of the scene as the Koreans have taught us many times over.
Honestly I don't understand why you started this thread. What are you trying to say?
Also, learn to use the enter key, this post really hurt my eyes to read.
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On March 21 2011 13:13 Nightfall.589 wrote:Show nested quote +
There will never be a similar structure to the one you have in South Korea, simply because there is no necessity to it. Of course, a pro-gamer house is a good environment for a player to further improve, but it does not bring him any extreme advantages
Progaming team houses are the reason for why South Korea was miles ahead of the foreign scene in BW... And once the game is better understood, it will be the reason it will be miles ahead of the foreign scene in SC2. Idra's and Jinro's successes would not have been as notable, had they trained in the US and Sweden.
Not to mention, every pro who's been to Korea has mentioned how helpful that practice environment is, along with their practice styles. That's why you have Root moving together and so on. I can't speak for the rest of your post, but this part is blatantly wrong. I'd just like to ask why you're especially qualified to give these insights. I don't disagree with some of it, I'm just curious because you seem to speak authoritatively as if you had inside information.
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On March 21 2011 13:13 Nightfall.589 wrote:Show nested quote +
There will never be a similar structure to the one you have in South Korea, simply because there is no necessity to it. Of course, a pro-gamer house is a good environment for a player to further improve, but it does not bring him any extreme advantages
Progaming team houses are the reason for why South Korea was miles ahead of the foreign scene in BW... And once the game is better understood, it will be the reason it will be miles ahead of the foreign scene in SC2. Idra's and Jinro's successes would not have been as notable, had they trained in the US and Sweden.
You're slightly wrong... in my opinion. IdrA did not live in a training house, he lived on his own. He moved out of the CJ Entus house following SC2's release.
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I agree with a lot of your post's content. The average vidya game player has heard of MLG for halo and Call of Duty rather than StarCraft just because of the install base of both games and the barrier to entry of being good at them.
I think your point of pro gaming houses is a good one, but it's not because of money, rather I think it is due to the mobility of North American and European tournaments, there is not some centralized location for all of the tournaments, or else I think that there probably would be pro houses for all of the games.
Your NASL post is going to get flamed so hard though, and for that I apologize. It was my impression that the only people saying NASL was revolutionary were the people making it, who kind of need to think that it will be revolutionary.
You need to organize your OP into topic paragraphs though, because you have some great stuff to say but a brick of text makes everything kind of, well, crappy.
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Thanks Kavex God of esports with these questions answered I can now live my life without doubt... Before I always wondered who held the absolute truths about the industry, now I know!!
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On March 21 2011 13:11 KaveX wrote:
So if you ask a Western pro-gamer if he'd rather live in a house with his team mates or have 400 $ more on his bank account each month, what will he choose?
I'd rather live in a programing house.
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Why all these negative remarks?
I think the points Kavex makes are valid and informed at least to some degree.
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On March 21 2011 13:22 CecilSunkure wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2011 13:11 KaveX wrote:
So if you ask a Western pro-gamer if he'd rather live in a house with his team mates or have 400 $ more on his bank account each month, what will he choose? I'd rather live in a programing house.
Sorry, I obviously made that point unclear. There are certainly people who will prefer the pro-gaming houses, and I never said there are none of them or that there never will be any, and of course I heard about TLO's plans. I only mean that not every pro-gamer will be part of one, it won't be an absolute standard as it is in Korea. I'd never neglect that living and practising in such a house can be very beneficial, yet the Korean Broodwar dominance has rather something to do with time investment, and I'm not saying that someone not living in a pro-gaming house can compete investing less time into practise.
Of course it's also true that there are no "e-sports hot spots" where it would be an actual advantage to move to.
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I followed the logic and think I understand all of your points. Some points I agree more than other. However, I can't take this too seriously, not much more beyond a "rant", because there is a huge lack of evidence and support.
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It will take some time, and some serious investors with a true passion.
When that happens, esports will be everywhere.
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On March 21 2011 13:11 KaveX wrote:
Reading through TeamLiquid, I oftentimes notice that people have wrong assumptions about the current state and development potential of e-sports. In particular, many TL users seem to overestimate the influence of the NASL. Let me try to shed some light on this issue.
What makes your opinion more accurate than others? I mean, almost all of what you wrote looks like just your opinion, I don't see how or why you would be more qualified to know what is really going on and what will happen with e-sports.
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I'm going to jump on the bandwagon and say that you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. Ever pro American player that has ever gone on the record has expressed an overwhelming desire for the kind of structure and practice opportunity that a team house offers. And the money thing? How does it cost more to live with other people in a team house than it does to live in a regular house.? We're talking adults here, not kids living with their parents.
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This post makes a lot of assertions as fact with little to no fact to back it up.
You say it is worth more to hire a few excellent player than one good player. Who said this? When? Is there a quote or a story from a credible source to back it up?
No value to having a pro-team house. I seem to have heard a lot of players saying this is one of the main reasons that Koreans are so far ahead. Because they train better. Do you have some facts or testimonials to back it up?
You have a well formatted and lots of thought in your post, but no real basis to it. You state a lot of things as fact when really it is just your unsubstantiated opinion.
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I'm sorry but if foreigners had pro houses we could compete on the same level as the koreans. Simple as that.
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I'm not going to justify myself here. If you feel that I'm wrong, sorry for wasting your time.
As for sources, I regularly talk with various people working in e-sports full-time, including managers of professional clans (refering to Audron's player source question). I have clean conscience about what I wrote above, sorry if it's not as scientific as you'd want it to be.
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On March 21 2011 13:32 Whiplash wrote:
I'm sorry but if foreigners had pro houses we could compete on the same level as the koreans. Simple as that.
With VOIP and skype and what not you can create a "virtual" practice house of sorts.
On March 21 2011 13:36 KaveX wrote:
I'm not going to justify myself here. If you feel that I'm wrong, sorry for wasting your time. As for sources, I regularly talk with various people working in esports full-time, including managers of professional clans (refering to Audron's player source question). I have clean conscience about what I wrote above, sorry if it's not as scientific as you'd want it to be.
And yet for these assertions you're presenting you expect us to swallow a whole lot with little to no evidence.
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I'm sure some big companies would sponsor a team house eventually if eSports gets a lot of coverage and media attention. We just gotta keep at it and support our community. As things stand now though I feel we're still a long way from team houses. I think big tournaments like the TSL and NASL will help change things.
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EPT
