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On March 21 2011 14:53 canikizu wrote:
The point of a pro gaming house is that you have discipline training. You have your schedule(maybe loosely but still a basic schedule), your coach, your teammates who will stand right behind you, watching you play, pointing out your in-game errors,v.v.. and such. Saying progaming house provide no advantage is like saying going to public school/university provides no advantage than home school.
Good point, horrible analogy :<
To expound on his analogy, saying a progaming house provide no advantage is like saying going to a trainer at a gym has no advantage to working out at home. Both may provide the same end result, but one gives you vastly greater odds of being successful. (Que someone jumping in telling us how he built himself up from nothing without the help of a trainer... good for you, you're probably the guy who only lived because he WASN'T buckled into the car and got flung out and is alive because he wasn't crushed by that semi. You're also a major outlier.)
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why's there so many terrible threads about THE TRUTH OF ESPORTS lately?
that's like the second or third time I've recently seen someone make the dumb as shit assertion that a training house makes little to no difference. jesus
User was warned for this post
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On March 21 2011 13:26 KaveX wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2011 13:22 CecilSunkure wrote:On March 21 2011 13:11 KaveX wrote:
So if you ask a Western pro-gamer if he'd rather live in a house with his team mates or have 400 $ more on his bank account each month, what will he choose? I'd rather live in a programing house. Sorry, I obviously made that point unclear. There are certainly people who will prefer the pro-gaming houses, and I never said there are none of them or that there never will be any, and of course I heard about TLO's plans. I only mean that not every pro-gamer will be part of one, it won't be an absolute standard as it is in Korea. I'd never neglect that living and practising in such a house can be very beneficial, yet the Korean Broodwar dominance has rather something to do with time investment, and I'm not saying that someone not living in a pro-gaming house can compete investing less time into practise. Of course it's also true that there are no "e-sports hot spots" where it would be an actual advantage to move to.
Actually this "Barracks" style large scale training house with dormitory and training rooms is much cheaper in total cost than everyone living seperately. Economy of scale. Hence that Proteams are even capable of upkeep of b-team players who otherwise in leagues & commercial purposes are useless
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On March 21 2011 13:44 RodrigoX wrote:
You really come off like a dick. LIke really badly. Not sure you can edit your personality out but it definitely hits us the wrong way, and for someone trying to get us to agree with them thats generally bad.
I mean to me youre some random nerd with a dash of cynicism who thinks he's better than everyone so first off I definitely don't respect you and I definitely don't like you, which again puts me off to your opinion.
As to your content though, it doesnt really seem so factual based as an opinion. Maybe show me how you actually matter and i could take you seriously for what your spitting out. But lets try and take you seriously...
I would agree with you on the point on not having players have large salaries to trade for more players. But maybe I would interject that one, maybe investors and teams havn't really understood the value of an ace, like an idra. It could be just as well that there will never be an ace because everyone is so good and things will go like it is, or its just a matter of time we get Jaedong esq salaries as certain players get more and more dominating.
But as to saying "esports has already happened" i disagree. Sure i agree that it is growing yes, but we are saying happen in a far larger scale like that. More like when will it be socially acceptable like it is in korea. Not just big tournies happening.
In your second bold point, this really shows a lack of knowledge of the Bw scene and SC in general to say progaming houses arent a neccessity for better players. To that, I say you could not be more wrong, and actually do some fact gathering and learn that Korean BW players could rape foreigners no problem because they were in team houses.
To the next bold term, its just the idea of again, if you do devote all your time to sc you'll just be better. Not that you can't be successful if you focus on other things besides sc, its just if you do you'll be better. And also maybe you are right, and people do just think its a plane ticket blocking them from GSL, but I think maybe people are smarter than that is what is keeping them from GSL is literally moving to another place which is something different in itself. And also the tradeoff of just playing in less tournament all together.
And to the last, it is revolutionary for Starcraft. Yeah whatever there have been bigger ones for other communities, but not Starcraft and thats why it is important. And if you have feedback for NASL how bout you try and tell NASL. But I dont know, Im not a professional.
Youre last paragraph though does show a lame bright side.
I don't think he came off as a dick. He made some nice analysis's in his post and was realistic. I agree with most of the stuff he said about NASL and some of the other tournaments. Especially about how MLG/IEM are putting all the money towards sustainability rather than what NASL is doing with a huge shock value huge sum and hoping they can make the money back or what not.
Also, he makes good points about how they will need to attract lots of viewers, not just TL viewers...which is a point that usually flies over the head of many posters on this site. It's highly likely most people that browse TL will watch regardless of whether NASL is horrible quality or great quality. The trouble is to bring in a wide audience of gamers and non-gamers.
I disagree a bit about the progamer houses tho. I think from brood war, and even newly established SC2 progamer houses in korea, it's obvious how much more rapidly those players were improving being in that environment than not being in it.
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IEM is more putting money into sustainability and production, MLG I wouldn't say the same thing, since MLG isn't really as profitable as it portrays itself to be, and the fact that it overloads the crap out of prize pools for halo, when there is no competition that ever has prize money outside of mlg. If they had a 10k first place prize every time it'd still be the biggest, if it had like 2.5k as the first place it'd still be biggest. but regardless, mlg and iem are different.
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I think he makes many good points. Since I haven't followed e-sports except when in terms of BW, which was mainly Korea-based, I thought his piece was quite insightful and well-reasoned. He makes very valid criticisms of the upcoming NASL, which in my mind, currently does not have the professionalism and organisation to bring e-sports to the Western mainstream public. However, things like this can be very unpredictable and we will have to wait until two or three seasons of the NASL to make any valuable judgments.
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Kind of surprising that almost everybody has forgotten that some EG players did move into a house in Arizona last year and it is the current whereabouts of Idra.
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In today's TSL3 thread, it's just the same again... "wow, the foreigners do pretty well. It will be so great when NASL and IPL finally launch" like it's Europe's and America's only chance to compete with South Korea. Really annoying.
On March 21 2011 23:32 Hawk wrote:
that's like the second or third time I've recently seen someone make the dumb as shit assertion that a training house makes little to no difference. jesus
I never said it makes no difference. Fact is, it's simply not desirable for many Western pro-gamers to live in one. Period. The advantages are less significant than 90 % of the people here think. Players not living in a training house can compete with players who do, this was even shown in the GSL.
Still, there are so many people who think that in Western e-sports, all professional teams will have their own training houses and it will be every aspiring player's dream to be in one. It's not going to happen (unless some institution forces it which is highly unlikely).
Do you want to have the easiest, most obvious proof? The low amount of Western pro-gaming houses today. SC2 is played professionally since over half a year, the Koreans already opened their training facilities, yet most non-Korean teams didn't even state any plans to open one. No, it's not because they are all waiting for the NASL to change everything, lol.
On March 21 2011 14:09 zerglingsfolife wrote:
You say the typical TL user doesn't care about the invite process for NASL... Have you seen the amount of bitching or numerous threads about who to invite?
Yes, and it baffles me every time that the majority here thinks that most SC2 fans prefer to see the world's very best gamers even if they're all Koreans (which isn't the case, of course). This is so untrue, I don't even know how people can argue about this. For instance, on readmore.de, there just was a poll asking for the users' favorite SC2 event so far. TaKe's Homestory Cups (which were mostly about showcasing the players' personalities, not about exceptional matches) won, getting more votes than GSL, IEM, etc. And readmore.de has something around 100 000 active users.
Of course, exceptional strategies, great micro and awesome decision making can be exciting, but it's just as important that people can relate to the players - and many people just enjoy watching people from their country/region - may it be because of national pride or simply because they know them better. This being said, players like ViBe have no place in the NASL for the reason that their presence doesn't excite anybody. Anyway, it was a huge blunder by the NASL to not simply host regional qualifiers (which is how other event organizers solve this problem without "being racist"), because it's impossible to find a decent balance between the continents by invitations. Someone will always feel left behind. And it's not going to be easier in the future seasons.
And since today, I don't see how the NASL intends to get the status of a 'world championship' (like WCG and IEM) anytime soon with matches between people from different continents being played online. It seems so much more reasonable to start off with 5 continental online leagues (North America, South America, Europe, Middle-East/Asia/Australia, South Korea) and have a global final on LAN. It really bothers me to see how all TSL3 results are questioned by the viewers because of possible lag issues. Even if the assumptions are wrong... the results simply feel less meaningful if there are many people who disagree with them. Imagine having bet real money on the outcome of one of these games and then reading all those lag-related comments.
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How hard the GSL is trying to make South Korea sound attractive for foreigners during the World Championship (i.e. in interviews and statements) is just another proof of how little interest there is. It's surely no coincidence that the WC takes place at the same time as the Code A qualifications, and still noone of the invited foreigners wanted to compete in them. GSL is trying hard, but it's not working. At the same time, the great success of the WC shows how much the GSL would benefit from more foreigners in Code S.
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On March 21 2011 13:11 KaveX wrote:
So if you ask a Western pro-gamer if he'd rather live in a house with his team mates or have 400 $ more on his bank account each month, what will he choose?
If you actually had an entire team living in a progaming house it would almost certainly cost less per person than each person living alone.
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On March 27 2011 06:04 KaveX wrote:
I never said it makes no difference. Fact is, it's simply not desirable for many Western pro-gamers to live in one. Period. The advantages are less significant than 90 % of the people here think. Players not living in a training house can compete with players who do, this was even shown in the GSL.
Still, there are so many people who think that in Western e-sports, all professional teams will have their own training houses and it will be every aspiring player's dream to be in one. It's not going to happen (unless some institution forces it which is highly unlikely).
Do you want to have the easiest, most obvious proof? The low amount of Western pro-gaming houses today. SC2 is played professionally since over half a year, the Koreans already opened their training facilities, yet most non-Korean teams didn't even state any plans to open one. No, it's not because they are all waiting for the NASL to change everything, lol.
you are seriously a moron if you dont think there is a major advantage to living in a house filled with some of the world's best players. you live, eat, breathe starcraft. you can practice any build you want at any time you want against the highest competition. you have a coach on hand. you will have discipline and a support system that others can only dream of. you will train more and against better opponents for specific things.
I really cant believe i have to even argue this. yes, you can occasionally lift a game off of superior players coming from these systems. Just like how shit teams in the NFL, NHL and MLB occasionally beat powerhouses that they'd only beat one out of every 15 times. That's the exact same situation this is.
the lack of gaming houses outside of korea only proves two things: The environment for esports is totally different elsewhere and that foreigners simply arent as dedicated as koreans who are willing to eschew all other social and career aspirations to log 16 hours a day in a gaming house.
User was warned for this post
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On March 30 2011 18:33 KaveX wrote:
How hard the GSL is trying to make South Korea sound attractive for foreigners during the World Championship (i.e. in interviews and statements) is just another proof of how little interest there is. It's surely no coincidence that the WC takes place at the same time as the Code A qualifications, and still noone of the invited foreigners wanted to compete in them. GSL is trying hard, but it's not working. At the same time, the great success of the WC shows how much the GSL would benefit from more foreigners in Code S.
I get the exact same feeling haha. The foreign audience represents a decent chunk of their viewership based on recent numbers (at least a third) and this is with people paying money to watch. The money and number of events outside of Korea continues to grow while SC2 in Korea seems to be about as big as Warcraft 3 was. They seem absolutely desperate for foreigners, but it's just not realistic for most if any foreigners given the amount of opportunities outside.
I wonder if we will see Korean players actually move to Europe or NA in the near future
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On March 30 2011 22:33 Hawk wrote:and that foreigners simply arent as dedicated as koreans who are willing to eschew all other social and career aspirations to log 16 hours a day in a gaming house.
And you realize that my main point was exactly that there will not be too many training houses outside of South Korea? You say, training houses offer incredible advantages but Western players aren't dedicated enough – I say, Western players don't feel like living in a training house will bring them so far ahead that it's worth it. You say, Western players don't want to do it because the negative aspects are too heavy while I say that they also don't consider the positive aspects to be as big as you say, but it all comes down to the same thing: No training house boom, due to little demand from the players, not because Western teams can't afford it or any other reasons.
Some people here sound as if not living in a training house either meant not investing much time into SC2 or that it was similar to living on an island completely isolated from the rest of the world*.
* One small anecdote which is not meant to be an argument or prove anything whatsoever. I know it's completely different in SC2, it's really only supposed to be an interesting read for those who haven't heard of it yet: In 2005, there was an absolutely unknown Counter-Strike team from Kazakhstan at the World Cyber Games – k23 (they played some small events in Moscow before, but that was it). They beat mousesports, they beat Virtus.pro – only Team 3D could stop them in the grand final (i.e. they placed second, winning 25000$). In interviews, they were asked how they practised in Kazakhstan - keep in mind that in 2005, Kazakh internet was way too bad to practise with anyone online. They said that besides watching many replays, they often played 2on2 and 3on3 games simply because there were no teams in Kazakhstan who were on their level.
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On March 30 2011 23:34 KaveX wrote:Show nested quote +On March 30 2011 22:33 Hawk wrote:and that foreigners simply arent as dedicated as koreans who are willing to eschew all other social and career aspirations to log 16 hours a day in a gaming house. And you realize that my main point was exactly that there will not be too many training houses outside of South Korea? You say, training houses offer incredible advantages but Western players aren't dedicated enough – I say, Western players don't feel like living in a training house will bring them so far ahead that it's worth it. You say, Western players don't want to do it because the negative aspects are too heavy while I say that they also don't consider the positive aspects to be as big as you say, but it all comes down to the same thing: No training house boom, due to little demand from the players, not because Western teams can't afford it or any other reasons. Some people here sound as if not living in a training house either meant not investing much time into SC2 or that it was similar to living on an island completely isolated from the rest of the world*. * One small anecdote which is not meant to be an argument or prove anything whatsoever. I know it's completely different in SC2, it's really only supposed to be an interesting read for those who haven't heard of it yet: In 2005, there was an absolutely unknown Counter-Strike team from Kazakhstan at the World Cyber Games – k23 (they played some small events in Moscow before, but that was it). They beat mousesports, they beat Virtus.pro – only Team 3D could stop them in the grand final (i.e. they placed second, winning 25000$). In interviews, they were asked how they practised in Kazakhstan - keep in mind that in 2005, Kazakh internet was way too bad to practise with anyone online. They said that besides watching many replays, they often played 2on2 and 3on3 games simply because there were no teams in Kazakhstan who were on their level.
No, this is your main point
On March 21 2011 13:11 KaveX wrote:
But where are the pro-gaming houses?
There will never be a similar structure to the one you have in South Korea, simply because there is no necessity to it. Of course, a pro-gamer house is a good environment for a player to further improve, but it does not bring him any extreme advantages. At the same time, maintaining such a house is quite expensive. So if you ask a Western pro-gamer if he'd rather live in a house with his
And your point is completely wrong. Those things are necessary if you truly want to make the leap from being good to being an elite professional
That's like arguing that there's no difference between a semi pro football player who has to hold down a 9-5 to make ends meet and a pro who spends most of his day in an environment dedicated to his craft.
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On March 31 2011 00:01 Hawk wrote:
That's like arguing that there's no difference between a semi pro football player who has to hold down a 9-5 to make ends meet and a pro who spends most of his day in an environment dedicated to his craft.
No, that's like arguing there is little difference between a skiing athlete being in a training camp over the winter or one who just goes skiing on his own every day. I agree that someone with a regular job will not be able to compete with top Koreans, I'd never deny that. I'm only saying it's not necessary to be in a training house as long as you can ask your team mates to practise with you over the internet with TeamSpeak/Ventrilo turned on. It's good for your skill for sure, but you do have a choice. I'm assuming the time invested into SC2 is the same in both cases.
But this is really getting stubborn. You know what? Just ask some European pro-gamers what they think of training houses and if they want to live in one and whether they feel that they will not be able to compete with the Koreans this way. Go ahead.
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who cares what people think when you have facts
koreans dominated comeptitive bw in all facets
they had houses and foreigners rarely did
korean servers are generally regarded as the best at this point
many korean teams have gaming houses
in the few international competitions that have taken place in sc2, koreans have typically performed better
the truth about esports is that foreigners will always be a step behind until that support system is in place. saying that the players have a choice... did you know the sky is blue today??? what a revelation!
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I think one of the main problems for E-Sports in North America is the sheer size of the nations in it. The most likely nations for E-Sports to happen are the US and Canada and both are really huge nations in terms of land size. South Korea is approximately the size of the state of Kentucky making centralization relatively easy (compared to the 48 continental states in the US and the 10 provinces in Canada).
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You got a few things right that I think the casual viewer wouldn't have known, but there are also some big missteps you took in assumptions about a few people.
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On March 31 2011 01:50 Zlasher wrote:
You got a few things right that I think the casual viewer wouldn't have known, but there are also some big missteps you took in assumptions about a few people.
Care to elaborate?
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EPT
