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Reading through TeamLiquid, I oftentimes notice that people have wrong assumptions about the current state and development potential of e-sports. In particular, many TL users seem to overestimate the influence of the NASL. Let me try to shed some light on this issue.
When will e-sports finally "happen" in North America and Europe?
It already happens, trust me. You have the professional players, teams and tournaments. MLG and ESL are both companies with millions of dollars and hundreds of people involved. The attitude that e-sports is huge in South Korea and small and underdeveloped anywhere else is obviously a leftover from the old Broodwar days. In the meantime, thanks to games like Counter-Strike, Quake Live and WarCraft 3, there has been constant progress towards a sustainable pro-gaming industry.
However, in the last 2-3 years, there have been some setbacks and the sponsorship money decreased which is why the established organizations don't have too much money to throw at SC2. There are some other relevant factors, e.g. the level of competition is so high that there are no dominating players which is the reason why player salaries are rather moderate at this point - it simply gives you more value to pay 6 excellent players (say: TT1, PainUser, Kas, DieStar, NightEnD, SarenS) than to invest the same amount of money to get IdrA and SjoW.
But where are the pro-gaming houses?
There will never be a similar structure to the one you have in South Korea, simply because there is no necessity to it. Of course, a pro-gamer house is a good environment for a player to further improve, but it does not bring him any extreme advantages. At the same time, maintaining such a house is quite expensive. So if you ask a Western pro-gamer if he'd rather live in a house with his team mates or have 400 $ more on his bank account each month, what will he choose?
After all, the life quality would most likely also suffer while the benefit isn't too big. For instance, in Counter-Strike, where it's actually important to have all players at the same physical location, there are some pro-gaming houses in Europe (most teams rather do month-long bootcamps though, even they feel more comfortable at their own homes).
E-sports needs more full-time players to succeed!
First of all, let's make one thing clear: It's perfectly possible to make a living as a professional SC2 player in North America and Europe. If you belong to the world's best and do a somewhat decent job at promoting yourself, you can live off it. And there are people who do just that. However, it's the same as with the pro-gaming houses: Do players actually need to focus on SC2 100% of their time to have a chance at winning a major tournament? Many successful players study at the same time because it's possible to adjust the time invested into studying so that your performance doesn't suffer (at least that's the case in many European countries, there might be exceptions where studying is always extremely time-intensive). Don't expect that higher prize pools will change this dramatically.
Oh, and it's just the same with the whole "moving to Korea" issue: Most players just don't want to go through all the related trouble just because of the GSL. It's not worth it for them. The GSL didn't even manage to fill their house (which is free for the players to live in), it surprises me time and time again how people think that the cost of a flight ticket is what's holding Western top performers back from competing in Code A. Of course, there are some people who want to try their luck (after all, the GSL is an incredibly prestigeous tournament) but just haven't gotten the chance yet, but it's obvious that you're not going to see all the best players move to Seoul anytime soon.
The NASL is revolutionary.
No. Just no. There is nothing revolutionary about it except that it has a good timing and decent concept. There has been a CPL World Tour with 1 000 000 $ in 2005, there has been an attempt to dumb down esports and bring it on TV by DirecTV in 2007/2008 (it was called Championship Gaming Series and failed horribly due to an awful concept, burning several millions of dollars in the process). MLG and IEM both host tournaments that are on a higher level than what the NASL team will be capable of achieving in their first season - which is not meant to offend them, I'm sure they're going to work their asses off, but they simply don't have the resources to compete with a giant booth at the CeBIT.
One could argue that instead of having such a big prize pool, they might be better off investing the money into human resources and operations, because that would be more beneficial for the development of esports. While some of the things NASL plans to do are quite good, it's far from perfect either. It starts with the whole brand (who even came up with the name North American Star League?) and its presentation which is tailored to the typical TL user - but if you want to turn such an expensive project into a sustainable business, having all TL users support you is not enough, you also need to attract the more mainstream people.
The league concept with the 50 invitations is problematic, too, especially because it ruins the tournament's legitimation (it's no coinsidence that WCG puts so much effort into having qualifiers in all small, unimportant nations - it all serves the purpose to be able to say how many millions of people from how many nations tried to qualify). Sure, the typical TL user won't care that invites were used because he just wants to see strategically interesting games, but you need to broaden the audience. And there are enough people who will, for instance, find the fact that games aren't live to be very disappointing, believe me. Just like it would be beneficial if the prize money was only 95 000 $ but Day[9] was casting and promoting the NASL.
Anyway: Just be aware that 100 000 $ prize money three times a year is a lot of money and there is a reason why MLG and ESL both can't keep up with that. The real challenge isn't setting up something like the NASL, but actually making it sustainable. It will be a tough job to find a business model that will justify such big investments - and there is a chance that iNcontroL and the others fail at it and the NASL joins other ambitious projects like CPL, WSVG, CGS and, at least temporarily, ESWC. I certainly hope they don't, but please understand that there is no guarantee that there will be more than the initial three seasons. And that adding a tournament with a high prize money pool and a great field of participants is a great thing, but it will not make e-sports suddenly become much bigger.
It already grows, just give it some time. It's much better if things are actually well thought out and sustainable than if some guy just decides to make a team with overpaid players and hopes to be able to monetize it one day (just think of what the overly high salaries of MYM.WC3 caused - in case you don't know, it crippled the whole WC3 scene because noone could keep up and eventually SK and others just gave up because it wasn't worth it at all). In any case, the future for e-sports might not have thousands of full-time players living in team houses all over North America and Europe, and SC2 not going to be regularly shown on mainstream TV soon, but things look quite good. You can rest assured your favorite players will have enough incentive to practise hard, teams will get bigger sponsors, there will be some serious transfers going on (with transfer fees and all that good jazz) and the tournaments won't get smaller either.
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There will never be a similar structure to the one you have in South Korea, simply because there is no necessity to it. Of course, a pro-gamer house is a good environment for a player to further improve, but it does not bring him any extreme advantages
Progaming team houses are the reason for why South Korea was miles ahead of the foreign scene in BW... And once the game is better understood, it will be the reason it will be miles ahead of the foreign scene in SC2. Idra's and Jinro's successes would not have been as notable, had they trained in the US and Sweden.
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Where is your credibility to say that a practice house offers no advantages. Have you ever lived in one and practiced?
Also, it would be much easier to read if you spread out your paragraphs.
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You really seem to be putting the cart before the horse here. We haven't seen what the NASL is capable of yet production wise. This seems like a subtle "Bash the NASL" thread.
You call these "truths" and yet you seem to not have a lot of evidence to back up your claims. And a lot of what you're saying is either already common knowledge or predictions that have yet to come true at all.
You say there are no pro-gamer houses in North America or Europe, and yet CatZ and Drewbie have started one for ROOT in Florida and TLO is looking to start one in Sweden. Houses are a necessity in order to stay at the top of the scene as the Koreans have taught us many times over.
Honestly I don't understand why you started this thread. What are you trying to say?
Also, learn to use the enter key, this post really hurt my eyes to read.
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On March 21 2011 13:13 Nightfall.589 wrote:Show nested quote +
There will never be a similar structure to the one you have in South Korea, simply because there is no necessity to it. Of course, a pro-gamer house is a good environment for a player to further improve, but it does not bring him any extreme advantages
Progaming team houses are the reason for why South Korea was miles ahead of the foreign scene in BW... And once the game is better understood, it will be the reason it will be miles ahead of the foreign scene in SC2. Idra's and Jinro's successes would not have been as notable, had they trained in the US and Sweden.
Not to mention, every pro who's been to Korea has mentioned how helpful that practice environment is, along with their practice styles. That's why you have Root moving together and so on. I can't speak for the rest of your post, but this part is blatantly wrong. I'd just like to ask why you're especially qualified to give these insights. I don't disagree with some of it, I'm just curious because you seem to speak authoritatively as if you had inside information.
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On March 21 2011 13:13 Nightfall.589 wrote:Show nested quote +
There will never be a similar structure to the one you have in South Korea, simply because there is no necessity to it. Of course, a pro-gamer house is a good environment for a player to further improve, but it does not bring him any extreme advantages
Progaming team houses are the reason for why South Korea was miles ahead of the foreign scene in BW... And once the game is better understood, it will be the reason it will be miles ahead of the foreign scene in SC2. Idra's and Jinro's successes would not have been as notable, had they trained in the US and Sweden.
You're slightly wrong... in my opinion. IdrA did not live in a training house, he lived on his own. He moved out of the CJ Entus house following SC2's release.
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I agree with a lot of your post's content. The average vidya game player has heard of MLG for halo and Call of Duty rather than StarCraft just because of the install base of both games and the barrier to entry of being good at them.
I think your point of pro gaming houses is a good one, but it's not because of money, rather I think it is due to the mobility of North American and European tournaments, there is not some centralized location for all of the tournaments, or else I think that there probably would be pro houses for all of the games.
Your NASL post is going to get flamed so hard though, and for that I apologize. It was my impression that the only people saying NASL was revolutionary were the people making it, who kind of need to think that it will be revolutionary.
You need to organize your OP into topic paragraphs though, because you have some great stuff to say but a brick of text makes everything kind of, well, crappy.
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Thanks Kavex God of esports with these questions answered I can now live my life without doubt... Before I always wondered who held the absolute truths about the industry, now I know!!
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On March 21 2011 13:11 KaveX wrote:
So if you ask a Western pro-gamer if he'd rather live in a house with his team mates or have 400 $ more on his bank account each month, what will he choose?
I'd rather live in a programing house.
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Why all these negative remarks?
I think the points Kavex makes are valid and informed at least to some degree.
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On March 21 2011 13:22 CecilSunkure wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2011 13:11 KaveX wrote:
So if you ask a Western pro-gamer if he'd rather live in a house with his team mates or have 400 $ more on his bank account each month, what will he choose? I'd rather live in a programing house.
Sorry, I obviously made that point unclear. There are certainly people who will prefer the pro-gaming houses, and I never said there are none of them or that there never will be any, and of course I heard about TLO's plans. I only mean that not every pro-gamer will be part of one, it won't be an absolute standard as it is in Korea. I'd never neglect that living and practising in such a house can be very beneficial, yet the Korean Broodwar dominance has rather something to do with time investment, and I'm not saying that someone not living in a pro-gaming house can compete investing less time into practise.
Of course it's also true that there are no "e-sports hot spots" where it would be an actual advantage to move to.
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I followed the logic and think I understand all of your points. Some points I agree more than other. However, I can't take this too seriously, not much more beyond a "rant", because there is a huge lack of evidence and support.
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It will take some time, and some serious investors with a true passion.
When that happens, esports will be everywhere.
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On March 21 2011 13:11 KaveX wrote:
Reading through TeamLiquid, I oftentimes notice that people have wrong assumptions about the current state and development potential of e-sports. In particular, many TL users seem to overestimate the influence of the NASL. Let me try to shed some light on this issue.
What makes your opinion more accurate than others? I mean, almost all of what you wrote looks like just your opinion, I don't see how or why you would be more qualified to know what is really going on and what will happen with e-sports.
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I'm going to jump on the bandwagon and say that you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. Ever pro American player that has ever gone on the record has expressed an overwhelming desire for the kind of structure and practice opportunity that a team house offers. And the money thing? How does it cost more to live with other people in a team house than it does to live in a regular house.? We're talking adults here, not kids living with their parents.
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This post makes a lot of assertions as fact with little to no fact to back it up.
You say it is worth more to hire a few excellent player than one good player. Who said this? When? Is there a quote or a story from a credible source to back it up?
No value to having a pro-team house. I seem to have heard a lot of players saying this is one of the main reasons that Koreans are so far ahead. Because they train better. Do you have some facts or testimonials to back it up?
You have a well formatted and lots of thought in your post, but no real basis to it. You state a lot of things as fact when really it is just your unsubstantiated opinion.
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I'm sorry but if foreigners had pro houses we could compete on the same level as the koreans. Simple as that.
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I'm not going to justify myself here. If you feel that I'm wrong, sorry for wasting your time.
As for sources, I regularly talk with various people working in e-sports full-time, including managers of professional clans (refering to Audron's player source question). I have clean conscience about what I wrote above, sorry if it's not as scientific as you'd want it to be.
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On March 21 2011 13:32 Whiplash wrote:
I'm sorry but if foreigners had pro houses we could compete on the same level as the koreans. Simple as that.
With VOIP and skype and what not you can create a "virtual" practice house of sorts.
On March 21 2011 13:36 KaveX wrote:
I'm not going to justify myself here. If you feel that I'm wrong, sorry for wasting your time. As for sources, I regularly talk with various people working in esports full-time, including managers of professional clans (refering to Audron's player source question). I have clean conscience about what I wrote above, sorry if it's not as scientific as you'd want it to be.
And yet for these assertions you're presenting you expect us to swallow a whole lot with little to no evidence.
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I'm sure some big companies would sponsor a team house eventually if eSports gets a lot of coverage and media attention. We just gotta keep at it and support our community. As things stand now though I feel we're still a long way from team houses. I think big tournaments like the TSL and NASL will help change things.
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It's too early for all that.
Yeah BW set up SC2 for esports. But SC2 isn't balanced yet, and the metagame is constantly changing. Nothing is really set in stone yet, the best of the best have yet to arrive. Right now SC2 as an esport really isn't that strong.
We just want to quickly rush this game and emulate the BW atmosphere. Personally I don't see how an unbalanced game can be considered an esport.
We're all just in a rush. We're in a rush to balance this game. We're in a rush to make it as entertaining if not more than BW. We're in a rush to become legends. We're in a rush to make money off the game. Everyone wants the game to completely overcome the BW shadow, however, that will take time.
I think it starts with balancing the game first. Just because there is money to be made from SC2, doesn't mean the game meets the criteria of an esport. Sports are balanced, so that the spectator and the players truly believe that skill is the defining factor. That's what makes them entertaining. SC2 has a way to go before it can achieve that.
When Stork losses against Jeadong, that shit can break my heart, completely ruin my day. I don't have the similar passion for SC2. Whether or not a protoss player wins or losses, I feel that despite his skill I know the game isn't balanced anyway. So it doesn't matter as much.
As a spectator the micro moments aren't that impressive either....Tyler's 24 kill zealot was hot, but you don't get a lot of that in SC2, and if you do you know that someone will QQ and blizzard will address that.
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On March 21 2011 13:36 KaveX wrote:
I'm not going to justify myself here. If you feel that I'm wrong, sorry for wasting your time. As for sources, I regularly talk with various people working in esports full-time, including managers of professional clans (refering to Audron's player source question). I have clean conscience about what I wrote above, sorry if it's not as scientific as you'd want it to be.
It's one thing to express an opinion. It's another to write an article-like post as if it's fact (all the while discrediting other people who're just speaking their opinions)
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awesome read - true story about the CPL !
I still remember Painkiller and Quake played by fatal1ty - those times are over. too bad. :'(
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Anyway: Just be aware that 100 000 $ prize money three times a year is a lot of money and there is a reason why MLG and ESL both can't keep up with that. The real challenge isn't setting up something like the NASL, but actually making it sustainable. It will be a tough job to find a business model that will justify such big investments - and there is a chance that iNcontroL and the others fail at it and the NASL joins other ambitious projects like CPL, WSVG, CGS and, at least temporarily, ESWC. I certainly hope they don't, but please understand that there is no guarantee that there will be more than the initial three seasons. And that adding a tournament with a high prize money pool and a great field of participants is a great thing, but it will not make e-sports suddenly become much bigger.
I disagree. You can't compare NASL and MLG like this. The NASL can afford a prize money like this because their tourney is mostly online and their content is made in a single permanent place; they don't need to rent super expensive convention center and have truck moving around the country with expensive computers/equipements/etc unlike MLG.
I'm pretty sure that overall MLG is investing and spending much more money than NASL. So I'm pretty sure that the NASL won't fail.
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On March 21 2011 13:36 KaveX wrote:
I'm not going to justify myself here. If you feel that I'm wrong, sorry for wasting your time. As for sources, I regularly talk with various people working in esports full-time, including managers of professional clans (refering to Audron's player source question). I have clean conscience about what I wrote above, sorry if it's not as scientific as you'd want it to be.
If you're not going to justify yourself, source your comments, and basically just state your opinion like everyone else then how can you name your topic "Truths about the e-sports industry"? You should change it to "My opinion on the e-sports industry" and should probably make it a blog.
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On March 21 2011 13:39 Shodaa wrote:Show nested quote +
Anyway: Just be aware that 100 000 $ prize money three times a year is a lot of money and there is a reason why MLG and ESL both can't keep up with that. The real challenge isn't setting up something like the NASL, but actually making it sustainable. It will be a tough job to find a business model that will justify such big investments - and there is a chance that iNcontroL and the others fail at it and the NASL joins other ambitious projects like CPL, WSVG, CGS and, at least temporarily, ESWC. I certainly hope they don't, but please understand that there is no guarantee that there will be more than the initial three seasons. And that adding a tournament with a high prize money pool and a great field of participants is a great thing, but it will not make e-sports suddenly become much bigger.
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I disagree. You can't compare NASL and MLG like this. The NASL can afford a prize money like this because their tourney is mostly online and their content is made in a single permanent place; they don't need to rent super expensive convention center and have truck moving around the country with expensive computers/equipements/etc unlike MLG. I'm pretty sure that overall MLG is investing and spending much more money than NASL. So I'm pretty sure that the NASL won't fail.
Valid point. I was assuming that the NASL was intending to grow as a business to become like MLG one day, but if having little organizational costs is part of the strategy, it could turn out pretty well.
On March 21 2011 13:42 cha0 wrote:
If you're not going to justify yourself, source your comments, and basically just state your opinion like everyone else then how can you name your topic "Truths about the e-sports industry"?
Because I possess the ignorance to assume that my opinions are better-educated than the opinions of an average TL user. Feel free to dispute it, I'm not saying it's impossible that I'm wrong with some points.
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You really come off like a dick. LIke really badly. Not sure you can edit your personality out but it definitely hits us the wrong way, and for someone trying to get us to agree with them thats generally bad.
I mean to me youre some random nerd with a dash of cynicism who thinks he's better than everyone so first off I definitely don't respect you and I definitely don't like you, which again puts me off to your opinion.
As to your content though, it doesnt really seem so factual based as an opinion. Maybe show me how you actually matter and i could take you seriously for what your spitting out. But lets try and take you seriously...
I would agree with you on the point on not having players have large salaries to trade for more players. But maybe I would interject that one, maybe investors and teams havn't really understood the value of an ace, like an idra. It could be just as well that there will never be an ace because everyone is so good and things will go like it is, or its just a matter of time we get Jaedong esq salaries as certain players get more and more dominating.
But as to saying "esports has already happened" i disagree. Sure i agree that it is growing yes, but we are saying happen in a far larger scale like that. More like when will it be socially acceptable like it is in korea. Not just big tournies happening.
In your second bold point, this really shows a lack of knowledge of the Bw scene and SC in general to say progaming houses arent a neccessity for better players. To that, I say you could not be more wrong, and actually do some fact gathering and learn that Korean BW players could rape foreigners no problem because they were in team houses.
To the next bold term, its just the idea of again, if you do devote all your time to sc you'll just be better. Not that you can't be successful if you focus on other things besides sc, its just if you do you'll be better. And also maybe you are right, and people do just think its a plane ticket blocking them from GSL, but I think maybe people are smarter than that is what is keeping them from GSL is literally moving to another place which is something different in itself. And also the tradeoff of just playing in less tournament all together.
And to the last, it is revolutionary for Starcraft. Yeah whatever there have been bigger ones for other communities, but not Starcraft and thats why it is important. And if you have feedback for NASL how bout you try and tell NASL. But I dont know, Im not a professional.
Youre last paragraph though does show a lame bright side.
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On March 21 2011 13:43 KaveX wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2011 13:39 Shodaa wrote:
Anyway: Just be aware that 100 000 $ prize money three times a year is a lot of money and there is a reason why MLG and ESL both can't keep up with that. The real challenge isn't setting up something like the NASL, but actually making it sustainable. It will be a tough job to find a business model that will justify such big investments - and there is a chance that iNcontroL and the others fail at it and the NASL joins other ambitious projects like CPL, WSVG, CGS and, at least temporarily, ESWC. I certainly hope they don't, but please understand that there is no guarantee that there will be more than the initial three seasons. And that adding a tournament with a high prize money pool and a great field of participants is a great thing, but it will not make e-sports suddenly become much bigger.
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I disagree. You can't compare NASL and MLG like this. The NASL can afford a prize money like this because their tourney is mostly online and their content is made in a single permanent place; they don't need to rent super expensive convention center and have truck moving around the country with expensive computers/equipements/etc unlike MLG. I'm pretty sure that overall MLG is investing and spending much more money than NASL. So I'm pretty sure that the NASL won't fail. Valid point. I was assuming that the NASL was intending to grow as a business to become like MLG one day, but if having little organizational costs is part of the strategy, it could turn out pretty well.
Yea, Don't think NASL plans to be as big or surpass MLG.
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I dont think you're giving Progaming houses enough credit. First of all, it may be cheaper than you think. 6-8 people living in a house sharing the cost can be extremely cheap.
Also the point is that you are playing starcraft all day, you are talking with your teammates all day, and you are coming up with strategies with them all day! You sit there and talk about this and that and oh this what be a great idea to counter that and oh look at this new build I thought of lets go try it out. With a progaming house you can accomplish so much more than just laddering and skyping with friends. It's a whole different lifestyle.
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Kennigit
Canada19447 Posts
I agree with most of what the OP says. NASL is a great concept, but it is definitely not new and has had many predecessors fail who had much larger budgets, talent pools and sponsors. That being said, i'm most interested to see what they do with their production.
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It's really nice to have an opinion isn't it.... This should just be disregarded, as it doesn't bring about intelligent well thought out arguments. Its just some guys broad opinion, on something he can not claim to know anything about. Stipulating otherwise is just wrong, and frankly somewhat naive.
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On March 21 2011 13:22 CecilSunkure wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2011 13:11 KaveX wrote:
So if you ask a Western pro-gamer if he'd rather live in a house with his team mates or have 400 $ more on his bank account each month, what will he choose? I'd rather live in a programing house.
Well I guess it really depends on your income, if you have 400 dollars to throw away all and time to play starcraft2 all day, then follow your dreams!
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On March 21 2011 13:36 KaveX wrote:
I'm not going to justify myself here. If you feel that I'm wrong, sorry for wasting your time.
As for sources, I regularly talk with various people working in e-sports full-time, including managers of professional clans (refering to Audron's player source question). I have clean conscience about what I wrote above, sorry if it's not as scientific as you'd want it to be.
That seems like a very odd thing to say, considering the tone and stucture of the post.
When the first paragraph is... Reading through TeamLiquid, I oftentimes notice that people have wrong assumptions about the current state and development potential of e-sports. In particular, many TL users seem to overestimate the influence of the NASL. Let me try to shed some light on this issue.
... it doesn't sound like you are just stating some broad opinion with no tangible reasons or evidence. Hard to take anything you say seriously now, even if i agree with some of it.
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On March 21 2011 13:43 KaveX wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2011 13:39 Shodaa wrote:
Anyway: Just be aware that 100 000 $ prize money three times a year is a lot of money and there is a reason why MLG and ESL both can't keep up with that. The real challenge isn't setting up something like the NASL, but actually making it sustainable. It will be a tough job to find a business model that will justify such big investments - and there is a chance that iNcontroL and the others fail at it and the NASL joins other ambitious projects like CPL, WSVG, CGS and, at least temporarily, ESWC. I certainly hope they don't, but please understand that there is no guarantee that there will be more than the initial three seasons. And that adding a tournament with a high prize money pool and a great field of participants is a great thing, but it will not make e-sports suddenly become much bigger.
.
I disagree. You can't compare NASL and MLG like this. The NASL can afford a prize money like this because their tourney is mostly online and their content is made in a single permanent place; they don't need to rent super expensive convention center and have truck moving around the country with expensive computers/equipements/etc unlike MLG. I'm pretty sure that overall MLG is investing and spending much more money than NASL. So I'm pretty sure that the NASL won't fail. Valid point. I was assuming that the NASL was intending to grow as a business to become like MLG one day, but if having little organizational costs is part of the strategy, it could turn out pretty well. Show nested quote +On March 21 2011 13:42 cha0 wrote:
If you're not going to justify yourself, source your comments, and basically just state your opinion like everyone else then how can you name your topic "Truths about the e-sports industry"? Because I possess the ignorance to assume that my opinions are better-educated than the opinions of an average TL user. Feel free to dispute it, I'm not saying it's impossible that I'm wrong with some points.
Then put this in blogs, because that's what this is. Great, you have an opinion backed by 0 credibility, until it's more this isn't relevant to the SC2 forum.
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Okay, fine, here's the deal:
+ Show Spoiler +KaveX isn't my actual nickname, it's only my SC2 moniker. I work in e-sports since many years, and if you're from Germany, there's a good chance you already heard of me. Of course, I would never write such a lame OP with my actual nickname - but as a result, I wouldn't have written anything at all. Please understand I don't want my name linked with this.
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On March 21 2011 13:50 Ponyo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2011 13:22 CecilSunkure wrote:On March 21 2011 13:11 KaveX wrote:
So if you ask a Western pro-gamer if he'd rather live in a house with his team mates or have 400 $ more on his bank account each month, what will he choose? I'd rather live in a programing house. Well I guess it really depends on your income, if you have 400 dollars to throw away all and time to play starcraft2 all day, then follow your dreams!
If you live with your parents it's easy to say this, but guess how much I pay for rent/utilities? (hint: more than 400)
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Kennigit
Canada19447 Posts
Yeah, even though i agree with you, you have to get some proper sourcing and quotes and stats in this thing if you want to make it a legit thread. otherwise, its just dribble.
moved to blogs.
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On March 21 2011 13:55 KaveX wrote:Okay, fine, here's the deal: + Show Spoiler +KaveX isn't my actual nickname, it's only my SC2 moniker. I work in e-sports since many years, and if you're from Germany, there's a good chance you already heard of me. Of course, I would never write such a lame OP with my actual nickname - but as a result, I wouldn't write anything at all.
OMG why didn't you tell me?! Bare minimum get a forum mod sworn to secrecy to come in here and back you...
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You say the typical TL user doesn't care about the invite process for NASL... Have you seen the amount of bitching or numerous threads about who to invite?
You say 300,000 dollars in prize money in a year is something MLG can't keep up with, yet MLG is giving out over 1,000,000 in prize money this year.
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The point of a pro gaming house is that you have discipline training. You have your schedule(maybe loosely but still a basic schedule), your coach, your teammates who will stand right behind you, watching you play, pointing out your in-game errors,v.v.. and such. Saying progaming house provide no advantage is like saying going to public school/university provides no advantage than home school.
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On March 21 2011 14:53 canikizu wrote:
The point of a pro gaming house is that you have discipline training. You have your schedule(maybe loosely but still a basic schedule), your coach, your teammates who will stand right behind you, watching you play, pointing out your in-game errors,v.v.. and such. Saying progaming house provide no advantage is like saying going to public school/university provides no advantage than home school.
Good point, horrible analogy :<
To expound on his analogy, saying a progaming house provide no advantage is like saying going to a trainer at a gym has no advantage to working out at home. Both may provide the same end result, but one gives you vastly greater odds of being successful. (Que someone jumping in telling us how he built himself up from nothing without the help of a trainer... good for you, you're probably the guy who only lived because he WASN'T buckled into the car and got flung out and is alive because he wasn't crushed by that semi. You're also a major outlier.)
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why's there so many terrible threads about THE TRUTH OF ESPORTS lately?
that's like the second or third time I've recently seen someone make the dumb as shit assertion that a training house makes little to no difference. jesus
User was warned for this post
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On March 21 2011 13:26 KaveX wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2011 13:22 CecilSunkure wrote:On March 21 2011 13:11 KaveX wrote:
So if you ask a Western pro-gamer if he'd rather live in a house with his team mates or have 400 $ more on his bank account each month, what will he choose? I'd rather live in a programing house. Sorry, I obviously made that point unclear. There are certainly people who will prefer the pro-gaming houses, and I never said there are none of them or that there never will be any, and of course I heard about TLO's plans. I only mean that not every pro-gamer will be part of one, it won't be an absolute standard as it is in Korea. I'd never neglect that living and practising in such a house can be very beneficial, yet the Korean Broodwar dominance has rather something to do with time investment, and I'm not saying that someone not living in a pro-gaming house can compete investing less time into practise. Of course it's also true that there are no "e-sports hot spots" where it would be an actual advantage to move to.
Actually this "Barracks" style large scale training house with dormitory and training rooms is much cheaper in total cost than everyone living seperately. Economy of scale. Hence that Proteams are even capable of upkeep of b-team players who otherwise in leagues & commercial purposes are useless
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On March 21 2011 13:44 RodrigoX wrote:
You really come off like a dick. LIke really badly. Not sure you can edit your personality out but it definitely hits us the wrong way, and for someone trying to get us to agree with them thats generally bad.
I mean to me youre some random nerd with a dash of cynicism who thinks he's better than everyone so first off I definitely don't respect you and I definitely don't like you, which again puts me off to your opinion.
As to your content though, it doesnt really seem so factual based as an opinion. Maybe show me how you actually matter and i could take you seriously for what your spitting out. But lets try and take you seriously...
I would agree with you on the point on not having players have large salaries to trade for more players. But maybe I would interject that one, maybe investors and teams havn't really understood the value of an ace, like an idra. It could be just as well that there will never be an ace because everyone is so good and things will go like it is, or its just a matter of time we get Jaedong esq salaries as certain players get more and more dominating.
But as to saying "esports has already happened" i disagree. Sure i agree that it is growing yes, but we are saying happen in a far larger scale like that. More like when will it be socially acceptable like it is in korea. Not just big tournies happening.
In your second bold point, this really shows a lack of knowledge of the Bw scene and SC in general to say progaming houses arent a neccessity for better players. To that, I say you could not be more wrong, and actually do some fact gathering and learn that Korean BW players could rape foreigners no problem because they were in team houses.
To the next bold term, its just the idea of again, if you do devote all your time to sc you'll just be better. Not that you can't be successful if you focus on other things besides sc, its just if you do you'll be better. And also maybe you are right, and people do just think its a plane ticket blocking them from GSL, but I think maybe people are smarter than that is what is keeping them from GSL is literally moving to another place which is something different in itself. And also the tradeoff of just playing in less tournament all together.
And to the last, it is revolutionary for Starcraft. Yeah whatever there have been bigger ones for other communities, but not Starcraft and thats why it is important. And if you have feedback for NASL how bout you try and tell NASL. But I dont know, Im not a professional.
Youre last paragraph though does show a lame bright side.
I don't think he came off as a dick. He made some nice analysis's in his post and was realistic. I agree with most of the stuff he said about NASL and some of the other tournaments. Especially about how MLG/IEM are putting all the money towards sustainability rather than what NASL is doing with a huge shock value huge sum and hoping they can make the money back or what not.
Also, he makes good points about how they will need to attract lots of viewers, not just TL viewers...which is a point that usually flies over the head of many posters on this site. It's highly likely most people that browse TL will watch regardless of whether NASL is horrible quality or great quality. The trouble is to bring in a wide audience of gamers and non-gamers.
I disagree a bit about the progamer houses tho. I think from brood war, and even newly established SC2 progamer houses in korea, it's obvious how much more rapidly those players were improving being in that environment than not being in it.
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IEM is more putting money into sustainability and production, MLG I wouldn't say the same thing, since MLG isn't really as profitable as it portrays itself to be, and the fact that it overloads the crap out of prize pools for halo, when there is no competition that ever has prize money outside of mlg. If they had a 10k first place prize every time it'd still be the biggest, if it had like 2.5k as the first place it'd still be biggest. but regardless, mlg and iem are different.
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I think he makes many good points. Since I haven't followed e-sports except when in terms of BW, which was mainly Korea-based, I thought his piece was quite insightful and well-reasoned. He makes very valid criticisms of the upcoming NASL, which in my mind, currently does not have the professionalism and organisation to bring e-sports to the Western mainstream public. However, things like this can be very unpredictable and we will have to wait until two or three seasons of the NASL to make any valuable judgments.
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Kind of surprising that almost everybody has forgotten that some EG players did move into a house in Arizona last year and it is the current whereabouts of Idra.
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In today's TSL3 thread, it's just the same again... "wow, the foreigners do pretty well. It will be so great when NASL and IPL finally launch" like it's Europe's and America's only chance to compete with South Korea. Really annoying.
On March 21 2011 23:32 Hawk wrote:
that's like the second or third time I've recently seen someone make the dumb as shit assertion that a training house makes little to no difference. jesus
I never said it makes no difference. Fact is, it's simply not desirable for many Western pro-gamers to live in one. Period. The advantages are less significant than 90 % of the people here think. Players not living in a training house can compete with players who do, this was even shown in the GSL.
Still, there are so many people who think that in Western e-sports, all professional teams will have their own training houses and it will be every aspiring player's dream to be in one. It's not going to happen (unless some institution forces it which is highly unlikely).
Do you want to have the easiest, most obvious proof? The low amount of Western pro-gaming houses today. SC2 is played professionally since over half a year, the Koreans already opened their training facilities, yet most non-Korean teams didn't even state any plans to open one. No, it's not because they are all waiting for the NASL to change everything, lol.
On March 21 2011 14:09 zerglingsfolife wrote:
You say the typical TL user doesn't care about the invite process for NASL... Have you seen the amount of bitching or numerous threads about who to invite?
Yes, and it baffles me every time that the majority here thinks that most SC2 fans prefer to see the world's very best gamers even if they're all Koreans (which isn't the case, of course). This is so untrue, I don't even know how people can argue about this. For instance, on readmore.de, there just was a poll asking for the users' favorite SC2 event so far. TaKe's Homestory Cups (which were mostly about showcasing the players' personalities, not about exceptional matches) won, getting more votes than GSL, IEM, etc. And readmore.de has something around 100 000 active users.
Of course, exceptional strategies, great micro and awesome decision making can be exciting, but it's just as important that people can relate to the players - and many people just enjoy watching people from their country/region - may it be because of national pride or simply because they know them better. This being said, players like ViBe have no place in the NASL for the reason that their presence doesn't excite anybody. Anyway, it was a huge blunder by the NASL to not simply host regional qualifiers (which is how other event organizers solve this problem without "being racist"), because it's impossible to find a decent balance between the continents by invitations. Someone will always feel left behind. And it's not going to be easier in the future seasons.
And since today, I don't see how the NASL intends to get the status of a 'world championship' (like WCG and IEM) anytime soon with matches between people from different continents being played online. It seems so much more reasonable to start off with 5 continental online leagues (North America, South America, Europe, Middle-East/Asia/Australia, South Korea) and have a global final on LAN. It really bothers me to see how all TSL3 results are questioned by the viewers because of possible lag issues. Even if the assumptions are wrong... the results simply feel less meaningful if there are many people who disagree with them. Imagine having bet real money on the outcome of one of these games and then reading all those lag-related comments.
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How hard the GSL is trying to make South Korea sound attractive for foreigners during the World Championship (i.e. in interviews and statements) is just another proof of how little interest there is. It's surely no coincidence that the WC takes place at the same time as the Code A qualifications, and still noone of the invited foreigners wanted to compete in them. GSL is trying hard, but it's not working. At the same time, the great success of the WC shows how much the GSL would benefit from more foreigners in Code S.
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On March 21 2011 13:11 KaveX wrote:
So if you ask a Western pro-gamer if he'd rather live in a house with his team mates or have 400 $ more on his bank account each month, what will he choose?
If you actually had an entire team living in a progaming house it would almost certainly cost less per person than each person living alone.
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On March 27 2011 06:04 KaveX wrote:
I never said it makes no difference. Fact is, it's simply not desirable for many Western pro-gamers to live in one. Period. The advantages are less significant than 90 % of the people here think. Players not living in a training house can compete with players who do, this was even shown in the GSL.
Still, there are so many people who think that in Western e-sports, all professional teams will have their own training houses and it will be every aspiring player's dream to be in one. It's not going to happen (unless some institution forces it which is highly unlikely).
Do you want to have the easiest, most obvious proof? The low amount of Western pro-gaming houses today. SC2 is played professionally since over half a year, the Koreans already opened their training facilities, yet most non-Korean teams didn't even state any plans to open one. No, it's not because they are all waiting for the NASL to change everything, lol.
you are seriously a moron if you dont think there is a major advantage to living in a house filled with some of the world's best players. you live, eat, breathe starcraft. you can practice any build you want at any time you want against the highest competition. you have a coach on hand. you will have discipline and a support system that others can only dream of. you will train more and against better opponents for specific things.
I really cant believe i have to even argue this. yes, you can occasionally lift a game off of superior players coming from these systems. Just like how shit teams in the NFL, NHL and MLB occasionally beat powerhouses that they'd only beat one out of every 15 times. That's the exact same situation this is.
the lack of gaming houses outside of korea only proves two things: The environment for esports is totally different elsewhere and that foreigners simply arent as dedicated as koreans who are willing to eschew all other social and career aspirations to log 16 hours a day in a gaming house.
User was warned for this post
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On March 30 2011 18:33 KaveX wrote:
How hard the GSL is trying to make South Korea sound attractive for foreigners during the World Championship (i.e. in interviews and statements) is just another proof of how little interest there is. It's surely no coincidence that the WC takes place at the same time as the Code A qualifications, and still noone of the invited foreigners wanted to compete in them. GSL is trying hard, but it's not working. At the same time, the great success of the WC shows how much the GSL would benefit from more foreigners in Code S.
I get the exact same feeling haha. The foreign audience represents a decent chunk of their viewership based on recent numbers (at least a third) and this is with people paying money to watch. The money and number of events outside of Korea continues to grow while SC2 in Korea seems to be about as big as Warcraft 3 was. They seem absolutely desperate for foreigners, but it's just not realistic for most if any foreigners given the amount of opportunities outside.
I wonder if we will see Korean players actually move to Europe or NA in the near future
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On March 30 2011 22:33 Hawk wrote:and that foreigners simply arent as dedicated as koreans who are willing to eschew all other social and career aspirations to log 16 hours a day in a gaming house.
And you realize that my main point was exactly that there will not be too many training houses outside of South Korea? You say, training houses offer incredible advantages but Western players aren't dedicated enough – I say, Western players don't feel like living in a training house will bring them so far ahead that it's worth it. You say, Western players don't want to do it because the negative aspects are too heavy while I say that they also don't consider the positive aspects to be as big as you say, but it all comes down to the same thing: No training house boom, due to little demand from the players, not because Western teams can't afford it or any other reasons.
Some people here sound as if not living in a training house either meant not investing much time into SC2 or that it was similar to living on an island completely isolated from the rest of the world*.
* One small anecdote which is not meant to be an argument or prove anything whatsoever. I know it's completely different in SC2, it's really only supposed to be an interesting read for those who haven't heard of it yet: In 2005, there was an absolutely unknown Counter-Strike team from Kazakhstan at the World Cyber Games – k23 (they played some small events in Moscow before, but that was it). They beat mousesports, they beat Virtus.pro – only Team 3D could stop them in the grand final (i.e. they placed second, winning 25000$). In interviews, they were asked how they practised in Kazakhstan - keep in mind that in 2005, Kazakh internet was way too bad to practise with anyone online. They said that besides watching many replays, they often played 2on2 and 3on3 games simply because there were no teams in Kazakhstan who were on their level.
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On March 30 2011 23:34 KaveX wrote:Show nested quote +On March 30 2011 22:33 Hawk wrote:and that foreigners simply arent as dedicated as koreans who are willing to eschew all other social and career aspirations to log 16 hours a day in a gaming house. And you realize that my main point was exactly that there will not be too many training houses outside of South Korea? You say, training houses offer incredible advantages but Western players aren't dedicated enough – I say, Western players don't feel like living in a training house will bring them so far ahead that it's worth it. You say, Western players don't want to do it because the negative aspects are too heavy while I say that they also don't consider the positive aspects to be as big as you say, but it all comes down to the same thing: No training house boom, due to little demand from the players, not because Western teams can't afford it or any other reasons. Some people here sound as if not living in a training house either meant not investing much time into SC2 or that it was similar to living on an island completely isolated from the rest of the world*. * One small anecdote which is not meant to be an argument or prove anything whatsoever. I know it's completely different in SC2, it's really only supposed to be an interesting read for those who haven't heard of it yet: In 2005, there was an absolutely unknown Counter-Strike team from Kazakhstan at the World Cyber Games – k23 (they played some small events in Moscow before, but that was it). They beat mousesports, they beat Virtus.pro – only Team 3D could stop them in the grand final (i.e. they placed second, winning 25000$). In interviews, they were asked how they practised in Kazakhstan - keep in mind that in 2005, Kazakh internet was way too bad to practise with anyone online. They said that besides watching many replays, they often played 2on2 and 3on3 games simply because there were no teams in Kazakhstan who were on their level.
No, this is your main point
On March 21 2011 13:11 KaveX wrote:
But where are the pro-gaming houses?
There will never be a similar structure to the one you have in South Korea, simply because there is no necessity to it. Of course, a pro-gamer house is a good environment for a player to further improve, but it does not bring him any extreme advantages. At the same time, maintaining such a house is quite expensive. So if you ask a Western pro-gamer if he'd rather live in a house with his
And your point is completely wrong. Those things are necessary if you truly want to make the leap from being good to being an elite professional
That's like arguing that there's no difference between a semi pro football player who has to hold down a 9-5 to make ends meet and a pro who spends most of his day in an environment dedicated to his craft.
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On March 31 2011 00:01 Hawk wrote:
That's like arguing that there's no difference between a semi pro football player who has to hold down a 9-5 to make ends meet and a pro who spends most of his day in an environment dedicated to his craft.
No, that's like arguing there is little difference between a skiing athlete being in a training camp over the winter or one who just goes skiing on his own every day. I agree that someone with a regular job will not be able to compete with top Koreans, I'd never deny that. I'm only saying it's not necessary to be in a training house as long as you can ask your team mates to practise with you over the internet with TeamSpeak/Ventrilo turned on. It's good for your skill for sure, but you do have a choice. I'm assuming the time invested into SC2 is the same in both cases.
But this is really getting stubborn. You know what? Just ask some European pro-gamers what they think of training houses and if they want to live in one and whether they feel that they will not be able to compete with the Koreans this way. Go ahead.
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who cares what people think when you have facts
koreans dominated comeptitive bw in all facets
they had houses and foreigners rarely did
korean servers are generally regarded as the best at this point
many korean teams have gaming houses
in the few international competitions that have taken place in sc2, koreans have typically performed better
the truth about esports is that foreigners will always be a step behind until that support system is in place. saying that the players have a choice... did you know the sky is blue today??? what a revelation!
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I think one of the main problems for E-Sports in North America is the sheer size of the nations in it. The most likely nations for E-Sports to happen are the US and Canada and both are really huge nations in terms of land size. South Korea is approximately the size of the state of Kentucky making centralization relatively easy (compared to the 48 continental states in the US and the 10 provinces in Canada).
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You got a few things right that I think the casual viewer wouldn't have known, but there are also some big missteps you took in assumptions about a few people.
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On March 31 2011 01:50 Zlasher wrote:
You got a few things right that I think the casual viewer wouldn't have known, but there are also some big missteps you took in assumptions about a few people.
Care to elaborate?
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EPT
