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I've given up on the whole macro idea and just cheese/1 base allin every game ( A la 5 warpgate rush)
1 base allin cheese is much more beneficial right now, there is no point trying to go Macro orientented since 1 base allins are so damn hard to stop anyway. It's fucking boring but it's the only way to win games as it is right now.
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T.O.P.
Hong Kong4685 Posts
On January 20 2011 09:31 Skyze wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2011 09:15 T.O.P. wrote:On January 20 2011 09:05 Lemonwalrus wrote:On January 20 2011 07:48 Joroth wrote:
Well i beg to differ cause it seems most of the successful players are cheesy/all in/ gimmicky players.
After watching Jinro vs IdrA last night this idea slapped me in the face. + Show Spoiler +At what point did Jinro all in last night? If you are talking about the double bunker on metalopolis you need to realize that he was expanding behind it and only made 2 marines. Considering that and the fact that he could salvage the bunkers means that he was delaying idra's expansion at the cost of 2 scv's. That hardly sounds like an all-in to me. I think the author isn't only talking about all ins. In SC2, there's so many ways to rush an opponent and win the game automatically if he isn't prepared, but at the same time you can transition into a mid, late game if you didn't win at the start. Because there is no or very little punishment for rushing. Players tend to rush every game. It's just how SC2 was designed. @OP It's a myth that as you rank up, people cheese less. I think as you rank up, people cheese even more. I'm #91 in TOP 200 NA so I'm speaking from a top master league perspective. but if you are really a top player, you can defend the "cheese" VERY easily.. The only thing that needs to be looked at right now, is the SCV/marine all-ins.. because mules provide terrans with the resources they lose so fast. Other than that, everything else is fair game and easy to stop if you dont make mistakes. Im speaking from a top 200 perspective too, and everytime I lose in the first 11 minutes, its 99.9% my fault (i misclick/dont micro properly/make bad decisions).. Everything besides that SCV all-in is defendable, therefor nothing should be called cheese. Its all easy to stop if you can micro properly.
If cheese was so easy to stop, this thread wouldn't exist. All pro games would be 20-30 minutes long because cheese would be too easy to stop to be effective. But that's not the case.
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On January 20 2011 09:31 Skyze wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2011 09:15 T.O.P. wrote:On January 20 2011 09:05 Lemonwalrus wrote:On January 20 2011 07:48 Joroth wrote:
Well i beg to differ cause it seems most of the successful players are cheesy/all in/ gimmicky players.
After watching Jinro vs IdrA last night this idea slapped me in the face. + Show Spoiler +At what point did Jinro all in last night? If you are talking about the double bunker on metalopolis you need to realize that he was expanding behind it and only made 2 marines. Considering that and the fact that he could salvage the bunkers means that he was delaying idra's expansion at the cost of 2 scv's. That hardly sounds like an all-in to me. I think the author isn't only talking about all ins. In SC2, there's so many ways to rush an opponent and win the game automatically if he isn't prepared, but at the same time you can transition into a mid, late game if you didn't win at the start. Because there is no or very little punishment for rushing. Players tend to rush every game. It's just how SC2 was designed. @OP It's a myth that as you rank up, people cheese less. I think as you rank up, people cheese even more. I'm #91 in TOP 200 NA so I'm speaking from a top master league perspective. but if you are really a top player, you can defend the "cheese" VERY easily.. The only thing that needs to be looked at right now, is the SCV/marine all-ins.. because mules provide terrans with the resources they lose so fast. Other than that, everything else is fair game and easy to stop if you dont make mistakes. Im speaking from a top 200 perspective too, and everytime I lose in the first 11 minutes, its 99.9% my fault (i misclick/dont micro properly/make bad decisions).. Everything besides that SCV all-in is defendable, therefor nothing should be called cheese. Its all easy to stop if you can micro properly.
I suggest you play the GSL then. since 99% of all games are won by cheeses and allins, You would dominate since middle or late game are non existent right now.
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On January 20 2011 10:35 T.O.P. wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2011 09:31 Skyze wrote:On January 20 2011 09:15 T.O.P. wrote:On January 20 2011 09:05 Lemonwalrus wrote:On January 20 2011 07:48 Joroth wrote:
Well i beg to differ cause it seems most of the successful players are cheesy/all in/ gimmicky players.
After watching Jinro vs IdrA last night this idea slapped me in the face. + Show Spoiler +At what point did Jinro all in last night? If you are talking about the double bunker on metalopolis you need to realize that he was expanding behind it and only made 2 marines. Considering that and the fact that he could salvage the bunkers means that he was delaying idra's expansion at the cost of 2 scv's. That hardly sounds like an all-in to me. I think the author isn't only talking about all ins. In SC2, there's so many ways to rush an opponent and win the game automatically if he isn't prepared, but at the same time you can transition into a mid, late game if you didn't win at the start. Because there is no or very little punishment for rushing. Players tend to rush every game. It's just how SC2 was designed. @OP It's a myth that as you rank up, people cheese less. I think as you rank up, people cheese even more. I'm #91 in TOP 200 NA so I'm speaking from a top master league perspective. but if you are really a top player, you can defend the "cheese" VERY easily.. The only thing that needs to be looked at right now, is the SCV/marine all-ins.. because mules provide terrans with the resources they lose so fast. Other than that, everything else is fair game and easy to stop if you dont make mistakes. Im speaking from a top 200 perspective too, and everytime I lose in the first 11 minutes, its 99.9% my fault (i misclick/dont micro properly/make bad decisions).. Everything besides that SCV all-in is defendable, therefor nothing should be called cheese. Its all easy to stop if you can micro properly. If cheese was so easy to stop, this thread wouldn't exist. All pro games would be 20-30 minutes long because cheese would be too easy to stop to be effective. But that's not the case.
Not yet.
As I said in my post, the same thing happened in BW when Boxer made his rise. Give the players more time to figure out the game before saying cheese/all-ins will dominate it.
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boxer's situation was different. it wasn't the cheesy builds he crafted that made him the dominant player he was. he had fundamentals at the top level among progamer's and it was his revolutionary micro control of units, utilizing them to more of their potential that gave him the edge over the rest of his competition. moreover, the one base play/cheese/all in situation in sc2 is consisting of many players doing similar builds and play styles that have a lot of exposure already. boxer's builds were much more unorthodox and considered unthinkable strategies at the time.
also, sc2's macro management tasks are much less consuming on a player's multitask ability. the edge someone can gain from playing a macro style is very limited, which is why the one base play/cheese/all in strats are seen much more often. they give more advantage and there is no reason to wait for a later time to win. with the macro advantage so small, the better player does not gain a bigger advantage from his superior gaming abilities. in sc2 it's all about who can tip the scales in their favor first
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I foresee in 2 years, an SC2 game which lasts more than 10 minutes will be called "cheese".
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EPT
