• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 19:08
CEST 01:08
KST 08:08
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
Code S RO12 Preview: GuMiho, Bunny, SHIN, ByuN3The Memories We Share - Facing the Final(?) GSL23Code S RO12 Preview: Cure, Zoun, Solar, Creator4[ASL19] Finals Preview: Daunting Task30[ASL19] Ro4 Recap : The Peak15
Community News
Weekly Cups (May 19-25): Hindsight is 20/20?0DreamHack Dallas 2025 - Official Replay Pack8[BSL20] RO20 Group Stage2EWC 2025 Regional Qualifiers (May 28-June 1)19Weekly Cups (May 12-18): Clem sweeps WardiTV May3
StarCraft 2
General
Karma, Domino Effect, and how it relates to SC2. The Memories We Share - Facing the Final(?) GSL How does the number of casters affect your enjoyment of esports? Code S RO12 Preview: GuMiho, Bunny, SHIN, ByuN Can anyone explain to me why u cant veto a matchup
Tourneys
EWC 2025 Regional Qualifiers (May 28-June 1) DreamHack Dallas 2025 Last Chance Qualifiers for OlimoLeague 2024 Winter [GSL 2025] Code S:Season 2 - RO12 - Group B [GSL 2025] Code S:Season 2 - RO12 - Group A
Strategy
Simple Questions Simple Answers [G] PvT Cheese: 13 Gate Proxy Robo
Custom Maps
[UMS] Zillion Zerglings
External Content
Mutation # 475 Hard Target Mutation # 474 Futile Resistance Mutation # 473 Cold is the Void Mutation # 472 Dead Heat
Brood War
General
Which player typ excels at which race or match up? Will foreigners ever be able to challenge Koreans? Battle.net is not working Practice Partners (Official) BW General Discussion
Tourneys
[ASL19] Grand Finals [BSL 2v2] ProLeague Season 3 - Friday 21:00 CET [BSL20] RO20 Group D - Sunday 20:00 CET [BSL20] RO20 Group B - Saturday 20:00 CET
Strategy
[G] How to get started on ladder as a new Z player I am doing this better than progamers do.
Other Games
General Games
Path of Exile Nintendo Switch Thread Monster Hunter Wilds Beyond All Reason Battle Aces/David Kim RTS Megathread
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
LiquidLegends to reintegrate into TL.net
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers
Hearthstone
Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
Vanilla Mini Mafia TL Mafia Community Thread TL Mafia Plays: Diplomacy TL Mafia: Generative Agents Showdown Survivor II: The Amazon
Community
General
Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine Russo-Ukrainian War Thread US Politics Mega-thread All you football fans (soccer)! European Politico-economics QA Mega-thread
Fan Clubs
Serral Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
[Manga] One Piece Movie Discussion!
Sports
2024 - 2025 Football Thread NHL Playoffs 2024 Formula 1 Discussion NBA General Discussion
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread Cleaning My Mechanical Keyboard How to clean a TTe Thermaltake keyboard?
TL Community
The Automated Ban List TL.net Ten Commandments
Blogs
I was completely wrong ab…
jameswatts
Need Your Help/Advice
Glider
Trip to the Zoo
micronesia
Yes Sir! How Commanding Impr…
TrAiDoS
Poker
Nebuchad
Info SLEgma_12
SLEgma_12
SECOND COMMING
XenOsky
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 14706 users

Understanding StarCraft: Map Control

Blogs > Chef
Post a Reply
1 2 Next All
Chef
Profile Blog Joined August 2005
10810 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-01-11 02:32:03
January 11 2011 01:33 GMT
#1
Map Control

      Map control is central to StarCraft:BroodWar. Most of the games people lose at the lower levels of StarCraft occur because of an error of judgement regarding who has map control. When watching StarCraft:BroodWar VODs, map control is central to understanding the weaknesses and strengths of pro players' strategies. More than that, understanding map control is what will enable one to make up logical strategies of his or her own.

A Standard Example of Low Level Misjudgements

      Imagine it's midgame in a PvZ. It doesn't matter how many bases either player has, or what their unit compositions are. The Protoss moves out to attack, and the Zerg responds by sending his whole army to fight it. The Zerg loses his army, and the Protoss proceeds to kill an expo. Why did the Zerg lose?
      If you aren't thinking about map control, and you just played this game, you're probably thinking 'damn it!' and rightly so. 'Why did I lose? Didn't I make the right units? Didn't I keep my money low? Was there a place I could have made more drones earlier?' The answer to all those questions is maybe. But I didn't give the details of the army for a reason. Let's assume Zerg did everything as well as his opponent up to that point in the game. Even if he didn't, it wouldn't affect the decision he is supposed to make in this scenario. The fact of the matter is that Protoss has map control at this point. That's a hard thing to deal with as a Zerg, cause you're thinking you have more expos so you should have control of the map, but it's the truth of the situation. When Protoss has map control, by very definition your army is not strong enough to beat his. If he attacks with his army you have to make a judgement about whether or not you can defend it just by delaying for more units, or if you need to build sunkens to stop it. This will depend on your build, but this is absolutely the only way for Zerg to stay in the game.
      Let's think of another example. You've just killed a Zerg army. You're really happy about it, and you think 'well I killed his army, so what's stopping me from killing his expo LOL.' You're right, you should go make a move on his expo. But the logic of this move is not to kill his expo. The logic of this move is to force Zerg to spend a lot of money building sunkens and army. If you can kill it anyway, that's great, but it you can't, it will be the critical failure in your game. Let's say Zerg didn't lose his army, and responded correctly. He pulled back and Protoss rightfully realised he has map control. So Protoss moves out to threaten the Zerg expo, and expands himself in the mean time, because what the hell is Zerg gonna do about it while he has map control. But then Protoss loses all or most of his army attacking the Zerg expo in a misjudgement of army size. The reason this is a critical failure is because he has given up the map control he just gained. Zerg can then respond by playing the move Protoss just did, in other words, expanding while threatening the expo Protoss doesn't have an army to defend.
      In really newbie games this cycle goes on endlessly. One player gets map control, then immediately gives it back to the other player by charging into cannons/sunkens/lurkers/storm whatever. When you start playing against better players, however, you get immediately punished for these moves. You think at first 'I'm just not macroing well enough' or 'I'm just not microing well enough,' but the critical flaw in strategy usually revolves around a misunderstanding of who has map control (or a total absence of consideration for it).

In Pro Matches

      All pros in BroodWar understand very well who has map control exactly when and for how long. All pros understand that when fast expanding, they are necessarily offering map control to their opponent. What keeps the player from going crazy with their map control is the various tech paths the player without map control is threatening.
      In ZvP Dark Templar are a constant, palpable threat for the Zerg. Expand too much and you can't protect your bases from a single unit. Dark Templar are a unit that threatens to take back map control from a Zerg who is too greedy. Even if the Protoss player doesn't build them, that threat is always guiding Zerg.
      Remember what I said about map control shifting from one player to another throughout the course of a game? How do you think this applies to ZvP? When a Zerg is choosing his third expo, he knows that eventually he is going to lose map control. Eventually the Protoss is going to get enough Templar, enough Zealots, enough Dragoons off two base that he will simply not be able to stop the Protoss from moving out and taking his third. As must be common knowledge, Zerg don't like being on the same number of bases as Protoss. It's uncouth. So what does Zerg want in a map when expanding?
      The answer, as you've seen in countless progames, is that the Zerg wants a third which can be used to protect his fourth. When the Zerg loses map control in the midgame, the most efficient way to keep the Protoss from crushing his expos is just to build a bunch of sunkens. But sunkens don't win back map control. They put you farther behind, as a matter of fact. The counter to this is if they can take their 4th expo without it being threatened by the Protoss, they're back ahead in expos and it's still difficult for toss to take a fourth.
      I apologise if this is incredibly tedious, or obvious, but I think you'll find if you start thinking about map control throughout a game, instead of just as specific situations such as 'I have muta so Terran can't move out now' you will find your experience of BroodWar and watching BroodWar enriched. There are many cases of map control where build orders and standard tech switches have already been made. There are many cases where you want to know 'why does this work?' There are many times when you should know why an aggressive one-base strategy is so risky and why the defending player is not necessarily behind if he loses a lot defending it. It's not just economy. It's the map control that allows you to have that economy. It's the map control that gives you the ability to deceive your opponent. Protoss can't get a probe outside of his main? Suddenly the Zerg feels a lot more comfortable. Suddenly the Zerg doesn't have to worry about being surprised. Suddenly the Protoss does.
      This is why if one players army is defending a base, the other's should usually be out on the map. If both players are out on the map, but battles aren't occurring, it's because one is avoiding the other. Threatening expos as the game gets more complex and map control is given to each player as percentages. I control the ground, so you can't attack me directly, but you control my vision, so your drops are threatening. I control the centre of the map because it is wide open, but you control any narrow area you can get to because I don't have dark swarm yet. This is how map control works, and this is the basis of all strategy.

For Some Reason

      I feel like this is too obvious. But I've played BroodWar so long that it's become just a natural way of thinking about the game. And I know people still post replays of themselves asking 'why did I lose' when this is almost always the answer. Sometimes people lose map control because they are just too slow at teching, or their macro is bad, sure, but lots of times your opponent's wasn't much better. Some of map control is taught to newbies with Artosis' iconic phrase 'when you're ahead, get more ahead' but that leaves out so many important aspects of map control.
      I remember long ago how enlightening, how wonderful it was to learn about map control in it's most fundamental ideas. Everyone knows Terran need vessels to move out against a lot of lurkers. Everyone knows mutas can keep Terran pinned into his base for a little while. But those are such specific situations, when the idea of map control is so much more general than that. Map control is a constantly present factor in BroodWar. If you have it, you need to know you have it so you can take advantage of it and expand. If you don't have it, you need to know that so you don't move out and lose all your shit. Make drones to make money. It's that fundamental to the game. It will raise your understanding of matches so much higher if you haven't grasped it yet.
      In any case, I hope at least some people get something from this post. I'm not the best player by any means, but I do feel like I have a strong understanding of the game. If anything, even if you already understood it, maybe you'll think about it more the next few VODs that you watch ^^

****
LEGEND!! LEGEND!!
KezseN
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
Singapore1450 Posts
January 11 2011 01:44 GMT
#2
Liquipedia this in the map control secton pls :D Gonna read it once more.
To Skeleton King: "Have you considered employment at Apple?"
Chef
Profile Blog Joined August 2005
10810 Posts
January 11 2011 01:58 GMT
#3
Probably a more insightful example of mapcontrol than anything I wrote up there occurs in low level TvZs all the time. Terran has a big army that can beat Zergs army directly. Terran thinks 'ok, time to mess with the Zerg' and he attacks a fringe expo. Zerg counters his main and does way more damage than losing his one expo cost him. This is Terran thinking he has map control, but he's actually giving his map control up by putting his army out of position. Zerg just counters and expos somewhere else, and it's a really strong move because of this. Of course, if Terran can defend his base and attack at the same time, then that is truer, or at least stronger map control.
LEGEND!! LEGEND!!
2Pacalypse-
Profile Joined October 2006
Croatia9490 Posts
January 11 2011 02:08 GMT
#4
This is pretty good article. Just today I was writing some post about a 2v2 and map control is even more important there!

But in 1v1, map control + position advantage is one of the main reasons to losing or winning a game.
Moderator"We're a community of geniuses because we've found how to extract 95% of the feeling of doing something amazing without actually doing anything." - Chill
Advocado
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Denmark994 Posts
January 11 2011 02:14 GMT
#5
Still speaking of map control, don't you think that Planetary Fortress are almost harmful to the strategic part of map control? I know it will become less of a problem next patch with scv's becoming a higher threat when repairing, but shouldn't bunkers be more of the main defensive strategy?

It's not even that planetary fortress are that good, it's just that even you finish off a terran force you can't go kill that PF cause it absolutely demolishes ground forces with siege tank like damage and massive splash.
http://www.twitch.tv/advocadosc2
ToFu.
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
331 Posts
January 11 2011 02:17 GMT
#6
On January 11 2011 11:14 Advocado wrote:
Still speaking of map control, don't you think that Planetary Fortress are almost harmful to the strategic part of map control? I know it will become less of a problem next patch with scv's becoming a higher threat when repairing, but shouldn't bunkers be more of the main defensive strategy?

It's not even that planetary fortress are that good, it's just that even you finish off a terran force you can't go kill that PF cause it absolutely demolishes ground forces with siege tank like damage and massive splash.


wat is a planetary fortress? is this some custom map?
Constipation Zerg Fighting!
Lexpar
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
1813 Posts
January 11 2011 02:23 GMT
#7
Really great read. Will definitely make an effort to identify the shifts in map control from now on.
DyEnasTy
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
United States3714 Posts
January 11 2011 02:25 GMT
#8
Sweet thank you for this!
Much better to die an awesome Terran than to live as a magic wielding fairy or a mindless sac of biological goop. -Manifesto7
2Pacalypse-
Profile Joined October 2006
Croatia9490 Posts
January 11 2011 02:27 GMT
#9
On January 11 2011 11:14 Advocado wrote:
Still speaking of map control, don't you think that Planetary Fortress are almost harmful to the strategic part of map control? I know it will become less of a problem next patch with scv's becoming a higher threat when repairing, but shouldn't bunkers be more of the main defensive strategy?

It's not even that planetary fortress are that good, it's just that even you finish off a terran force you can't go kill that PF cause it absolutely demolishes ground forces with siege tank like damage and massive splash.

Did you even read the article?
Scratch that, did you even read the FIRST sentence?
Moderator"We're a community of geniuses because we've found how to extract 95% of the feeling of doing something amazing without actually doing anything." - Chill
Advocado
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Denmark994 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-01-11 02:43:59
January 11 2011 02:42 GMT
#10
What I meant is that air forces are almost needed in any midgame where terran has latched onto an highyield expansion with a PF.

I went on a rant that wasn't really related to the post, my mistake. Map control isn't something that spoken off very much in starcraft 2.

"In really newbie games this cycle goes on endlessly. One player gets map control, then immediately gives it back to the other player by charging into cannons/sunkens/lurkers/storm whatever. "


I'm guessing this is me.
http://www.twitch.tv/advocadosc2
Phelix
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
1931 Posts
January 11 2011 02:44 GMT
#11
Great article, map control is an important component in Brood War. I should be practicing this with Vultures and mines, trying to lay mines everywhere.
Venture Capital is better off spent on lottery tickets rather than investing in E-Sports; you'll get a far better return. The difference is simple: Koreans are tryharding at the game, foreigners are tryharding in real-life.
RaGe
Profile Blog Joined July 2004
Belgium9946 Posts
January 11 2011 02:52 GMT
#12
On January 11 2011 11:08 2Pacalypse- wrote:
This is pretty good article. Just today I was writing some post about a 2v2 and map control is even more important there!

But in 1v1, map control + position advantage is one of the main reasons to losing or winning a game.


yeah in BW map control was everything in 2v2, just because of the tactical aspect of being able to isolate armies.

2v2 in SC2 on these shared bases maps is fucked up though. It completely ruins what was different about 2v2, and team work seems to play an even smaller role. I guess they could fix it with maps though
Moderatorsometimes I get intimidated by the size of my right testicle
rel
Profile Blog Joined January 2005
Guam3521 Posts
January 11 2011 03:16 GMT
#13
Chef, great article my man!
I'll tank push my way into her heart. ☮♥&$!
Cambium
Profile Blog Joined June 2004
United States16368 Posts
January 11 2011 03:57 GMT
#14
On January 11 2011 10:58 Chef wrote:
Probably a more insightful example of mapcontrol than anything I wrote up there occurs in low level TvZs all the time. Terran has a big army that can beat Zergs army directly. Terran thinks 'ok, time to mess with the Zerg' and he attacks a fringe expo. Zerg counters his main and does way more damage than losing his one expo cost him. This is Terran thinking he has map control, but he's actually giving his map control up by putting his army out of position. Zerg just counters and expos somewhere else, and it's a really strong move because of this. Of course, if Terran can defend his base and attack at the same time, then that is truer, or at least stronger map control.


Are you referring to Jaedong vs Baby? That was a perfect example to what you said. And I agree completely.

I always thought it might be a good idea for Terran to send a small force, maybe a DS's worth of MMF to hunt down expos while keeping the main force for map control, but the smaller group might get eaten alive by mutaling or even just lings. It's definitely a tricky problem in TvZ.
When you want something, all the universe conspires in helping you to achieve it.
nbaker
Profile Joined July 2009
United States1341 Posts
January 11 2011 05:20 GMT
#15
I sort of knew this, but this is a good and thought provoking article and I'm going to think about map control more after reading this. Thanks, Chef!
wherebugsgo
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
Japan10647 Posts
January 11 2011 05:28 GMT
#16
On January 11 2011 11:42 Advocado wrote:
What I meant is that air forces are almost needed in any midgame where terran has latched onto an highyield expansion with a PF.

I went on a rant that wasn't really related to the post, my mistake. Map control isn't something that spoken off very much in starcraft 2.

Show nested quote +
"In really newbie games this cycle goes on endlessly. One player gets map control, then immediately gives it back to the other player by charging into cannons/sunkens/lurkers/storm whatever. "


I'm guessing this is me.


You were just told to read the first sentence of the blog. If you actually did that, you'd realize how stupid you sound right now.

+ Show Spoiler +
This is about Brood War, so PFs have no relevance here.


Anyway, as for the OP and about map control:

I agree with most of what you're saying. I think that, generally, it's hard for a lot of players to recognize that they have map control (or don't) in the heat and pace of the game, and so they sometimes play contrarily to how they should.

Even pros are susceptible to this because SC is not a game of full information. If you're unaware of something, you generally don't know your exact state in relation to your opponent. If you believe you're ahead, for example, and you think you have control of the map, you might try to expand. If your assessment is wrong, though, this is a terrible decision and an aware opponent will punish you severely.
Z3kk
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
4099 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-01-11 05:32:04
January 11 2011 05:31 GMT
#17
Great insight, thanks for this! This definitely needs to be on liquipedia for those still aspiring to be BW gamers! :D Will definitely think about this next time I watch SWL.
Failure is not falling down over and over again. Failure is refusing to get back up.
emperorchampion
Profile Blog Joined December 2008
Canada9496 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-01-11 06:00:10
January 11 2011 05:43 GMT
#18
On January 11 2011 11:17 ToFu. wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 11 2011 11:14 Advocado wrote:
Still speaking of map control, don't you think that Planetary Fortress are almost harmful to the strategic part of map control? I know it will become less of a problem next patch with scv's becoming a higher threat when repairing, but shouldn't bunkers be more of the main defensive strategy?

It's not even that planetary fortress are that good, it's just that even you finish off a terran force you can't go kill that PF cause it absolutely demolishes ground forces with siege tank like damage and massive splash.


wat is a planetary fortress? is this some custom map?


Don't be a fool, this is a STARCRAFT site- which includes both games. Obviously the same principles apply throughout both games, and all RTSs for that matter. Manner up!

Advocado, I'm not totally sure what you mean, but I will do the best to explain what I think (please comment, because I am not that familiar with SC2). A strategic decision has to be made, based on favoring resources vs safety (OC vs PF). Obviously, main bases and natural expansions are made into OC, I don't think I need to explain why. However, when taking thirds and onwards, often PFs are made. I think this is mostly convention, and I'm sure as the game evolves OCs may become more popular (OCs are inherently "better", as you gain additional resources, which can be used to make additional units and attack or defend- instead of just defense). So, in this regard the game isn't "dumbed down" (in my opinion). I'm not sure if it makes it easier either, because it is a huge disadvantage to make a PF- this may be why a lot of Terrans find themselves out-macroed in lategame TvZ. I guess what I'm getting at is that you may actually be giving up map control my making a PF, because you have less army (you gain greater control over a small area, in sacrifice for lesser control over the whole map). Again, this is all theory, and I hope someone more qualified will make better post :p

edit: What's with all the fucking high-handed bw players in this thread?! Get a grip yo~ Also, to whoever said this has nothing to do with SC2 is very, very misinformed. This has everything to do with SC2, and every other RTS for that matter.

btw, great blog Chef
TRUEESPORTS || your days as a respected member of team liquid are over
wherebugsgo
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
Japan10647 Posts
January 11 2011 06:06 GMT
#19
On January 11 2011 14:43 emperorchampion wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 11 2011 11:17 ToFu. wrote:
On January 11 2011 11:14 Advocado wrote:
Still speaking of map control, don't you think that Planetary Fortress are almost harmful to the strategic part of map control? I know it will become less of a problem next patch with scv's becoming a higher threat when repairing, but shouldn't bunkers be more of the main defensive strategy?

It's not even that planetary fortress are that good, it's just that even you finish off a terran force you can't go kill that PF cause it absolutely demolishes ground forces with siege tank like damage and massive splash.


wat is a planetary fortress? is this some custom map?


Don't be a fool, this is a STARCRAFT site- which includes both games. Obviously the same principles apply throughout both games, and all RTSs for that matter. Manner up!

Advocado, I'm not totally sure what you mean, but I will do the best to explain what I think (please comment, because I am not that familiar with SC2). A strategic decision has to be made, based on favoring resources vs safety (OC vs PF). Obviously, main bases and natural expansions are made into OC, I don't think I need to explain why. However, when taking thirds and onwards, often PFs are made. I think this is mostly convention, and I'm sure as the game evolves OCs may become more popular (OCs are inherently "better", as you gain additional resources, which can be used to make additional units and attack or defend- instead of just defense). So, in this regard the game isn't "dumbed down" (in my opinion). I'm not sure if it makes it easier either, because it is a huge disadvantage to make a PF- this may be why a lot of Terrans find themselves out-macroed in lategame TvZ. I guess what I'm getting at is that you may actually be giving up map control my making a PF, because you have less army (you gain greater control over a small area, in sacrifice for lesser control over the whole map). Again, this is all theory, and I hope someone more qualified will make better post :p

edit: What's with all the fucking high-handed bw players in this thread?! Get a grip yo~ Also, to whoever said this has nothing to do with SC2 is very, very misinformed. This has everything to do with SC2, and every other RTS for that matter.

btw, great blog Chef


I disagree, SC2 currently is not in a state where "map control" means anything.

The maps are too small, and the game is dominated by 1 and 2 base all-ins. There is very little notion of map control outside the Z matchups because Protoss players ignore map size with warp-ins and no top Terrans ATM really do much other than 2 base plays.

In TvZ, for example, it's very possible for a Zerg player in SC2 to have complete map awareness, better income, better production, etc, but get destroyed by a random all-in simply because the map is too small.

This is true even for the larger maps like Shakuras because of the map structure.

In short, yes, this is right now a concept that is more or less useless in SC2. The closest to "map control" one can get is controling the watch towers, but that's more vision than "control" anyway.
emperorchampion
Profile Blog Joined December 2008
Canada9496 Posts
January 11 2011 06:36 GMT
#20
On January 11 2011 15:06 wherebugsgo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 11 2011 14:43 emperorchampion wrote:
On January 11 2011 11:17 ToFu. wrote:
On January 11 2011 11:14 Advocado wrote:
Still speaking of map control, don't you think that Planetary Fortress are almost harmful to the strategic part of map control? I know it will become less of a problem next patch with scv's becoming a higher threat when repairing, but shouldn't bunkers be more of the main defensive strategy?

It's not even that planetary fortress are that good, it's just that even you finish off a terran force you can't go kill that PF cause it absolutely demolishes ground forces with siege tank like damage and massive splash.


wat is a planetary fortress? is this some custom map?


Don't be a fool, this is a STARCRAFT site- which includes both games. Obviously the same principles apply throughout both games, and all RTSs for that matter. Manner up!

Advocado, I'm not totally sure what you mean, but I will do the best to explain what I think (please comment, because I am not that familiar with SC2). A strategic decision has to be made, based on favoring resources vs safety (OC vs PF). Obviously, main bases and natural expansions are made into OC, I don't think I need to explain why. However, when taking thirds and onwards, often PFs are made. I think this is mostly convention, and I'm sure as the game evolves OCs may become more popular (OCs are inherently "better", as you gain additional resources, which can be used to make additional units and attack or defend- instead of just defense). So, in this regard the game isn't "dumbed down" (in my opinion). I'm not sure if it makes it easier either, because it is a huge disadvantage to make a PF- this may be why a lot of Terrans find themselves out-macroed in lategame TvZ. I guess what I'm getting at is that you may actually be giving up map control my making a PF, because you have less army (you gain greater control over a small area, in sacrifice for lesser control over the whole map). Again, this is all theory, and I hope someone more qualified will make better post :p

edit: What's with all the fucking high-handed bw players in this thread?! Get a grip yo~ Also, to whoever said this has nothing to do with SC2 is very, very misinformed. This has everything to do with SC2, and every other RTS for that matter.

btw, great blog Chef


I disagree, SC2 currently is not in a state where "map control" means anything.

The maps are too small, and the game is dominated by 1 and 2 base all-ins. There is very little notion of map control outside the Z matchups because Protoss players ignore map size with warp-ins and no top Terrans ATM really do much other than 2 base plays.

In TvZ, for example, it's very possible for a Zerg player in SC2 to have complete map awareness, better income, better production, etc, but get destroyed by a random all-in simply because the map is too small.

This is true even for the larger maps like Shakuras because of the map structure.

In short, yes, this is right now a concept that is more or less useless in SC2. The closest to "map control" one can get is controling the watch towers, but that's more vision than "control" anyway.


Assuming you agree with Chef's argument here:
Let's think of another example. You've just killed a Zerg army. You're really happy about it, and you think 'well I killed his army, so what's stopping me from killing his expo LOL.' You're right, you should go make a move on his expo. But the logic of this move is not to kill his expo. The logic of this move is to force Zerg to spend a lot of money building sunkens and army. If you can kill it anyway, that's great, but it you can't, it will be the critical failure in your game. Let's say Zerg didn't lose his army, and responded correctly. He pulled back and Protoss rightfully realised he has map control. So Protoss moves out to threaten the Zerg expo, and expands himself in the mean time, because what the hell is Zerg gonna do about it while he has map control. But then Protoss loses all or most of his army attacking the Zerg expo in a misjudgement of army size. The reason this is a critical failure is because he has given up the map control he just gained. Zerg can then respond by playing the move Protoss just did, in other words, expanding while threatening the expo Protoss doesn't have an army to defend.


Your points here:
The maps are too small, and the game is dominated by 1 and 2 base all-ins. There is very little notion of map control outside the Z matchups because Protoss players ignore map size with warp-ins and no top Terrans ATM really do much other than 2 base plays.

In TvZ, for example, it's very possible for a Zerg player in SC2 to have complete map awareness, better income, better production, etc, but get destroyed by a random all-in simply because the map is too small.


Are in direct contradiction. "Vision" is an illusion of map control, map control was defined (I agree with this definition btw) basically as "whoever has the ability to control the map, ie. kill the opposing army". If a Terran player all-ins, they, by definition, have map control because of a more powerful army, therefore I don't understand your argument here- as obviously in this case Zerg was not playing properly (ignoring any apparent, or real balance issues). Warp-ins contribute to map control, but not by extending it- but by reinforcing existing spots of control. I don't really understand your argument here. I think the notion of "map control" is a varying one, ie. a player can have map control, but that doesn't mean that they control every area of the map (unless of course, they have complete map control, via an intense contain or something of the like)- I think this is where you got confused here. The Protoss player won't magically have a more powerful army, but can reinforce it quicker, for whatever it's worth.

I honestly cannot imagine how you can say map control is useless in SC2. In games on Steppes of War, map control is extremely important. Any amount of tanks in the middle ground gives almost immediate control of the entire map to a Terran player, allowing him to freely move about behind the contain. Now, that said, I don't endorse Steppes as a map- and I think the whole map pool is pretty much garbage to be honest. But, you have to work with what is presented, and to say that map control isn't important- or non-existent even- is flat out wrong. Obviously there is a lot of evolution in SC2 still, and to endorse notions such as that hampers the process.

Please look into your arguments more, instead of just posting "what you feel to be true".
TRUEESPORTS || your days as a respected member of team liquid are over
1 2 Next All
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Road to EWC
22:00
Americas Closed Qualifiers
RotterdaM721
CranKy Ducklings290
EnkiAlexander 131
Liquipedia
BSL 2v2 ProLeague S3
19:00
Day 3 - WB Round 2
ZZZero.O108
Liquipedia
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
RotterdaM 721
CosmosSc2 231
UpATreeSC 107
StarCraft: Brood War
Britney 17767
ZZZero.O 108
Aegong 55
Bonyth 53
Shine 19
NaDa 13
Counter-Strike
taco 808
flusha566
Heroes of the Storm
Grubby3326
Khaldor185
Other Games
summit1g8553
tarik_tv6741
FrodaN5628
hungrybox397
mouzStarbuck370
ViBE120
Mew2King88
Sick68
Livibee58
KnowMe54
NightEnD36
RuFF_SC232
Organizations
Other Games
gamesdonequick547
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 23 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• Berry_CruncH186
• StrangeGG 74
• RyuSc2 42
• davetesta29
• Hupsaiya 15
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• sooper7s
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Migwel
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
StarCraft: Brood War
• blackmanpl 17
• HerbMon 14
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
• BSLYoutube
Dota 2
• masondota21451
• Ler107
League of Legends
• Doublelift7707
• TFBlade1701
Other Games
• imaqtpie1298
• Shiphtur407
Upcoming Events
Road to EWC
9h 52m
Road to EWC
16h 52m
BSL Season 20
18h 52m
Sziky vs Razz
Sziky vs StRyKeR
Sziky vs DragOn
Sziky vs Tech
Razz vs StRyKeR
Razz vs DragOn
Razz vs Tech
DragOn vs Tech
Online Event
1d 4h
Clem vs ShoWTimE
herO vs MaxPax
Road to EWC
1d 9h
Road to EWC
1d 16h
BSL Season 20
1d 18h
Bonyth vs Doodle
Bonyth vs izu
Bonyth vs MadiNho
Bonyth vs TerrOr
MadiNho vs TerrOr
Doodle vs izu
Doodle vs MadiNho
Doodle vs TerrOr
Replay Cast
3 days
Replay Cast
3 days
The PondCast
5 days
[ Show More ]
Replay Cast
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Proleague 2025-05-28
DreamHack Dallas 2025
Calamity Stars S2

Ongoing

JPL Season 2
BSL Season 20
KCM Race Survival 2025 Season 2
NPSL S3
Rose Open S1
CSL Season 17: Qualifier 1
2025 GSL S2
Heroes 10 EU
ESL Impact League Season 7
IEM Dallas 2025
PGL Astana 2025
Asian Champions League '25
ECL Season 49: Europe
BLAST Rivals Spring 2025
MESA Nomadic Masters
CCT Season 2 Global Finals
IEM Melbourne 2025
YaLLa Compass Qatar 2025
PGL Bucharest 2025
BLAST Open Spring 2025

Upcoming

CSL Season 17: Qualifier 2
CSL 17: 2025 SUMMER
Copa Latinoamericana 4
CSLPRO Last Chance 2025
CSLAN 2025
K-Championship
SEL Season 2 Championship
Esports World Cup 2025
HSC XXVII
Championship of Russia 2025
Bellum Gens Elite Stara Zagora 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall Qual
IEM Cologne 2025
FISSURE Playground #1
BLAST.tv Austin Major 2025
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.