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An Opinion Piece #4

Blogs > Chef
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Chef
Profile Blog Joined August 2005
10810 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-12-29 23:09:17
December 29 2010 23:03 GMT
#1
An Opinion Piece #4
[image loading]
Gather 'round children while uncle Chef rambles to himself


Women

      In our community there are probably one or two blogs made a day asking for help with women. That's not what this is about. Not really, but maybe a little. A lot of people are probably not going to agree with what I have to say, but it's something I wonder about often and it seems it's finally time to put it all into a notepad file.

Games

      Allow me to tell you a story about my grandma. When I was a little kid, along with my cousins and brothers, sometimes we would visit my grandma's house and play a game called Gin Rummy. It's a card game of sorts, that involves a great deal of luck, but also a fair amount of skill which usually determines the winner in the long run. My grandma used to say 'I don't let people win, I don't care if they're kids or not.' Since you can get lucky in Gin Rummy it's possible to win a single hand even if you have no idea what you're doing, but since the game is played over many hands, the variance (to use a poker term) usually evens out and leaves the skilled player ahead in the end. That's a good formula for a kid to feel elated about a hand or two he or she gets lucky in, while not demeaning the kid by letting him or her win.
      And it is demeaning to let someone win a game. Victory becomes meaningless and so does the game. I think most people know when they've won just because someone let them. That's not the same as giving yourself a handicap, or not trying your very hardest to win. It's not the same as playing in a way that teaches your beginner opponents, or making suggestions that might help them (which you would keep to yourself if you were desperate to win). Giving someone the game means they won because of who they are, not how they played. I think that's a poor lesson to teach children, and I'm glad my grandma had her attitude.

Sexism

      As you grow older and gender becomes a more defining part of your personality, you realise that girls and boys are supposed to treat each other in special ways. A man is supposed to let a woman win. It's apparently called chivalry.
      I don't think you do favours for kids when you let them win, and I don't think you do favours for a woman (even a woman you're interested in) when you let her win. It's unattractive to be super competitive and stomp her into the ground, but when you are playing a game you're skilled at and you let her win, you're showing you don't take her seriously at all. This is a strong part of many cultures and it's what we've been lead to believe our roles as men and women are, but I think that this is a core factor to why women have less presence than men in eSports and other fields of mental competition.

Biology

      I'm about as far from being a Biology major as one can get, but I know a thing or two from my personal studies and what I remember from high school. It's a pretty obvious fact that men have greater (in terms of mass) bones and muscles, especially on the upper half of the body. This makes contact sports like Hockey and American Football necessarily divided into leagues based on gender, and necessarily more entertaining to watch those whose bodies suggest success in a sport. However, I don't believe the same is true about women and men's brains.
      It is popular pseudo-science (I dare call it) that women and men's actions are greatly determined by testosterone and estrogen levels. That testosterone is the competitive hormone and without as much of it women are unable to achieve the same drive to succeed as men have.
      It is also possible to conclude that because of women's menstrual cycles, they necessarily are impaired once a month for a few days and thus have less time than men to devote to their competitive aspiration.
      I don't really know the truth of either, to be honest. I'm inclined to say it's bullshit. I'm inclined to think that everyone who decides men are naturally dominant and women are naturally submissive is a chauvinistic moron. We're always trying to define people by gender. We're always trying to say why women are not succeeding here where men are. I think the reason is the very fact that we are so obsessed with gender and asking those questions.
      A hundred years ago Joseph Conrad wrote in Heart of Darkness:

It's queer how out of touch with truth women are. They live in a world of their own, and there had never been anything like it, and never can be. It is too beautiful altogether, and if they were to set it up it would go to pieces before the first sunset. Some confounded fact we men have been living contentedly with ever since the day of creation would start up and knock the whole thing over.


      I hope that everyone reading this blog can see how blatantly awful the character Marlow is being when he makes this statement. "The fairer sex," as women are sometimes called, is putting women up on a pedestal, and then putting that pedestal some place where it can never achieve anything. If you let a girl win, you don't allow her to be competitive. You pretend women are above competition. You deny the opportunity for a woman to decide for herself.
      It's not that it's men's fault. It's the way our culture works. In the same way that women can hardly be blamed for not telling men to play seriously. They adopt the role that is being pushed on them, that of thinking themselves above competition. It takes huge social movements for women to be taken seriously as writers, for women to be allowed to work as skilled labourers, and indeed, it'll take another grand social movement for women to break into mental games for which their bodies are at no significant disadvantage.

Women in Progaming

      Obviously I've been leading this toward StarCraft this whole time. Why aren't female players successful in pro StarCraft? I mean their records and level of competition, of course, not popularity or monetary value. If you agree with the premises I've laid out, the conclusion is obvious: The reason women suck on the pro level of StarCraft is because women are told in our cultures not to compete. I don't know how bad it is in Korea, this is my guess.
      So why does TossGirl play on the B team? The answer is why wouldn't she? She's just one girl. The reason Canada and Russia have many hockey players in the NHL is because they both are countries with a huge pool of interested players to draw from. How many girls, compared to boys, are trying to become progamers? About as many Brazilians that are trying to play Hockey? Even if her team takes her seriously, TossGirl was a girl with determination to overcome the role she's supposed to fill as a woman. That goes a long way, but it doesn't make her a genius. There needs to be a greater pool of women trying to become progamers (and people taking them seriously) for one genius to emerge. Besides, at this point she's as old as Boxer (in terms of her career), and he sucks at SC1 now too (comparatively).
      The fact that there even were women leagues (as opposed to letting women just compete with the guys) already segregated the competition and left them falling behind. Why do we feel it necessary to say women aren't good enough to compete with guys in StarCraft? If you tell a lie often enough it becomes true. If you're told your whole life you aren't as good as someone else, you will start to believe it. It's really rare for someone to deny that and fight against it, admirable and desirable as such a trait may be, and even rarer for that same person to be talented enough to prove it to the rest of the world.

If you take anything from this...

      Don't let someone win just because of their age or gender. Go easy if they are new, but respect them and allow them to compete.
      There are many girls who play games because their older brother does and as siblings their identity as female is not threatened by playing together. This is where I predict women gamers will begin to emerge from if they are taken seriously. If they are taken seriously, then one day they won’t need an older brother to want to play games


*****
LEGEND!! LEGEND!!
Zergneedsfood
Profile Blog Joined September 2008
United States10671 Posts
December 29 2010 23:32 GMT
#2
Nice post Chef.

Definitely got me thinking. A couple days ago I told my girlfriend that her hand speed on a keyboard was pretty good and she could get pretty damn at Starcraft (BW or 2) if she wanted to.

She just looked at me and stared. x) So I totally agree that our culture inherently breeds women that don't feel the necessity to compete.

But I don't think that's the only reason. I think a species in general likes to do things in their comfort zone. And for a wide majority of girls, being competitive in video games is completely out of their comfort areas. And I think that the same can be said for men.

Ultimately it's how you use the word "competitively". I'm sure men and women can be equally competitive in the fact that they want to win, but I don't think that the majority of both genders play competitively in terms of trying to be the next pro gamer. Sure, there's a disproportionate number of men to women, but that just means that men are more comfortable with video gaming than women are.

So iono.....

Good post though. Just rambled a bit. 5/5
/人◕ ‿‿ ◕人\ Make a contract with me and join TLADT | Onodera isn't actually a girl, she's just a doormat you walk over to get to the girl. - Numy 2015
uNiGNoRe
Profile Blog Joined June 2007
Germany1115 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-12-29 23:41:23
December 29 2010 23:40 GMT
#3
So after reading I guess you are against gender separated leagues/tournaments in SC?
Because I am still undecided on that topic. It obviously has disadvantages, some of which you already mentioned, but it has, or at least seems to have advantages as well.
A few months ago I watched some female CS match and in an interview one of the players was asked if she preferred to play in female cups or if she would like to play with the males in the normal leagues and cups. She answered that she preferred the female cups because she likes playing in that environment with other women and that the mindset in the male leagues is too competitive. Of course that might only be the opinion of one individual but I feel like playing in a more comfortable environment might be the better way to get more girls to play games competitively. In addition to that, female gaming gets more attention through those separated cups and similar events than when they would play the regular cups and fail because they're not on the same level (which seems to be the case most of the time).

The biggest problem I have with female cups and the like is that it sends the message "Girls should play in the female cups, the regular cups are only for men." which is the absolute opposite of what I - and I think most others as well - would like to see.
Gummy
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
United States2180 Posts
December 29 2010 23:47 GMT
#4
I regularly get stomped by women in both Starcraft and HoN. It's not because I let them win, but rather because they're legitimately better than me. And their voices are super sexy. 5/5
¯\_(ツ)_/¯ There are three kinds of people in the world: those who can count and those who can't.
rel
Profile Blog Joined January 2005
Guam3521 Posts
December 30 2010 00:00 GMT
#5
Totally agree, if you give them handicaps they will continue to perform handicapped.
I'll tank push my way into her heart. ☮♥&$!
shindigs
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
United States4795 Posts
December 30 2010 01:42 GMT
#6
This is an interesting issue since in physical sports, gender is accounted for due to biological differences. In the realm of e-sports, it seems that the only thing holding back female competition are cultural factors, not only in esports, but in gaming in general. IMO I don't think it'll be resolved anytime soon.
Photographer@shindags || twitch.tv/shindigs
hazelynut
Profile Blog Joined December 2008
United States2195 Posts
December 30 2010 02:08 GMT
#7
I was afraid you might go into the territory of: NO WOMEN'S CUPS RAWR that tends to be the general characteristic of threads about women and SC, but you didn't and proceeded to make several fair points. I'm not sure how prevalent this problem of chivalry is, but I do agree with it.

I happen to be someone who plays SC today because her older brother played video games, and to be honest, I think the way I turned out had less to do with personal preference and more to do with childhood circumstance. I do think if given the right circumstances (ie older brothers) or a change in atmosphere, many more girls would actually like gaming. I hope this becomes the case.
Zerg | life of lively to live to life of full life thx to shield battery | www.cstarleague.com <3
synapse
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
China13814 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-12-30 03:04:43
December 30 2010 03:04 GMT
#8
Haha, chivalry.

I feel that a lot of people think it's best (in the case of female gamers) to let them win so that they stay interested in a game. After all, humans generally deal with losing pretty badly.
:)
Etherone
Profile Blog Joined November 2008
United States1898 Posts
December 30 2010 03:13 GMT
#9
I usually try to win at every game i play, but vs women i don't try to win I try to roflstomp. Something about the disappointment on their face while thinking they'll never be as good as i am due to what they (mostly) think is a gender difference.
it all started with my mom, and mario kart 64.

Chef
Profile Blog Joined August 2005
10810 Posts
December 30 2010 03:40 GMT
#10
On December 30 2010 12:04 synapse wrote:
Haha, chivalry.

I feel that a lot of people think it's best (in the case of female gamers) to let them win so that they stay interested in a game. After all, humans generally deal with losing pretty badly.

If you want someone interested in a game, you introduce them to someone their own level to play with. You're not interested in a game if you can't take a loss.

What's really happening with people who say this is that they're desperate to make a girlfriend or whatever like their hobby as much as they do. Or sometimes a girl will take an interest in your hobbies just to try and spend time with you or humour you. In the end she doesn't really want to get serious about it, so there's no point in trying hard to set things up to make her interested. Either she is or she isn't.

What I'm saying is more about potential. Not every girl will like games, not every girl will get really good at any of them, and not every girl will want to become pro. If I'm honest, StarCraft is clearly an obsession of mine (though not as insane as someone's who wants to be professional), and I couldn't ask anyone to suddenly acquire it. That potential would have to already exist within the person. I am just saying that we block potential in women (towards professional game aspirations) in ways that we don't for men.
LEGEND!! LEGEND!!
Chimpalimp
Profile Joined May 2010
United States1135 Posts
December 30 2010 05:16 GMT
#11
I don't think that any e-sports competition should block women from trying to enter it, it is, in my opinion, the worst possible idea for e-sports. I believe the main reason we have female only cups, is to show other younger girls that they shouldn't give up hope, that they should actually try gaming when they have the desire to do so.

Nicely written chef. 5/5
I like money. You like money too? We should hang out.
blahman3344
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
United States2015 Posts
December 30 2010 05:32 GMT
#12
Thanks for this post, Uncle Chef. (=P) This really opens my eyes on a different perspective of race and age as factors in competitive stuff. What I got out of this was that chivalry and competition have their times and place, and should be applied accordingly. Thanks again for this, it was a really good read.
I like haikus and / I can not lie. You other / brothers can't deny
annul
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
United States2841 Posts
December 30 2010 05:38 GMT
#13
tossgirl probably plays in B team because either 1. she just simply is not as good, personally, to be on A team, or 2. because the physiological differences you describe between the sexes may make good micro/high APM harder to achieve for females.
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