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I used to watch of korean starcraft. The players played so well and I was amazed. Most of the times I couldn't understand what their strategies were, but I was always impressed by how good their understanding of the game is, how refined their strategies were.
Now I've moved on to watching sc2. And what I see is professional gamers - people that play all day, practice the same thing over and over again until it's perfect make the same "amateur" mistakes that even I wouldn't make. Here's some of them:
Waiting for the expansion to finish to start a spine crawler. I've seen countless zergs lose because their crawler is a few seconds too late, yet there are very few players that build it in their main and walk it to the natural if their hatchery is delayed.
Random attack timing: things like "I spent too much into defense, and he's not all-inning me, I have to attack or I'm going to be behind", "My colossi ball will melt any army in seconds"
Not using mules in mid-late game: Having a lot of resources doesn't mean you don't want to get more; scanning is nice but don't overdo it.
Third base planetary fortress - yes, there are times that it proves to be extremely helpful, but if you see your opponent is being passive and is getting his third why would you sacrifice both the OCs abilities AND the option to lift?
Building bunkers next to your wall - effectively reducing the repair surface space.
Only getting 1 upgrade structure ( forge, armory, eng. bay, evo chamber ) - there is a big difference between a 3:0 and a 3:3 maxed army.
Getting too many workers: 80 drones and 10 queens don't leave a lot of space for a huge army.
Attacking when maxed: Not always a good decision, especially if you're not about to tech switch. You can always turtle until you get upgrades/infinite money/production structures/towers.
 
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I usually hate the people who say this when referring to how the game is supposed to develop and turn into a better game as it ages, but, I really do think I need to say it here: It's just been released, give players some time to refine timings and proper mechanics on how to do everything. SC1 wasn't refined into being played perfectly in a day, a month, or even a year, and SC2 won't either.
The longer the game is out, the more refined progamers' play will be, as things become standard and second-nature to do.
Also, a lot of pro players aren't really all that good, to be honest. Give the game some time to develop better players, too, and these ones that are making these mistakes will fade away.
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Thank you for the white rice and water Angra.
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On December 20 2010 19:22 CanT.ThinK.oF wrote:
I used to watch of korean starcraft. The players played so well and I was amazed. Most of the times I couldn't understand what their strategies were, but I was always impressed by how good their understanding of the game is, how refined their strategies were.
Now I've moved on to watching sc2. And what I see is professional gamers - people that play all day, practice the same thing over and over again until it's perfect make the same "amateur" mistakes that even I wouldn't make. Here's some of them:
Waiting for the expansion to finish to start a spine crawler. I've seen countless zergs lose because their crawler is a few seconds too late, yet there are very few players that build it in their main and walk it to the natural if their hatchery is delayed.
Random attack timing: things like "I spent too much into defense, and he's not all-inning me, I have to attack or I'm going to be behind", "My colossi ball will melt any army in seconds"
Not using mules in mid-late game: Having a lot of resources doesn't mean you don't want to get more; scanning is nice but don't overdo it.
Third base planetary fortress - yes, there are times that it proves to be extremely helpful, but if you see your opponent is being passive and is getting his third why would you sacrifice both the OCs abilities AND the option to lift?
Building bunkers next to your wall - effectively reducing the repair surface space.
Only getting 1 upgrade structure ( forge, armory, eng. bay, evo chamber ) - there is a big difference between a 3:0 and a 3:3 maxed army.
Getting too many workers: 80 drones and 10 queens don't leave a lot of space for a huge army.
Attacking when maxed: Not always a good decision, especially if you're not about to tech switch. You can always turtle until you get upgrades/infinite money/production structures/towers.
sorry but I dont know of you. If you played better than the pro koreans u should have achieved something by now. Till then just dont say ur angry on how pro's play because they obviously play better than you.
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On December 20 2010 19:22 CanT.ThinK.oF wrote:
I used to watch of korean starcraft. The players played so well and I was amazed. Most of the times I couldn't understand what their strategies were, but I was always impressed by how good their understanding of the game is, how refined their strategies were.
Now I've moved on to watching sc2. And what I see is professional gamers - people that play all day, practice the same thing over and over again until it's perfect make the same "amateur" mistakes that even I wouldn't make. Here's some of them:
1:Waiting for the expansion to finish to start a spine crawler. I've seen countless zergs lose because their crawler is a few seconds too late, yet there are very few players that build it in their main and walk it to the natural if their hatchery is delayed.
2:Random attack timing: things like "I spent too much into defense, and he's not all-inning me, I have to attack or I'm going to be behind", "My colossi ball will melt any army in seconds"
3:Not using mules in mid-late game: Having a lot of resources doesn't mean you don't want to get more; scanning is nice but don't overdo it.
4:Third base planetary fortress - yes, there are times that it proves to be extremely helpful, but if you see your opponent is being passive and is getting his third why would you sacrifice both the OCs abilities AND the option to lift?
5;Building bunkers next to your wall - effectively reducing the repair surface space.
6:Only getting 1 upgrade structure ( forge, armory, eng. bay, evo chamber ) - there is a big difference between a 3:0 and a 3:3 maxed army.
7:Getting too many workers: 80 drones and 10 queens don't leave a lot of space for a huge army.
Attacking when maxed: Not always a good decision, especially if you're not about to tech switch. You can always turtle until you get upgrades/infinite money/production structures/towers.
I'll label all your points in the quote:
1: In any hatch first build, the time taken to walk it across AND burrow, it means that its not worth it, considering your pool will finish when the hatch is >50% done. In a pool first build, you often struggle finding the money for a spine crawler, AND its only a few seconds earlier AND you don't expect a rush will kill you before you can make a spinecrawler if you went pool first.
2: "Random attack timings" you just explained their reasoning. THEY can't see the whole map, if you spend a lot into defensive units or structures and they power eco you are fucked if its a good player. Economy builds so fast you are really in trouble. Again, colossus ball will melt any army in seconds sounds reasonable. Sometimes positioning or not having perfect scouting might give them a bad result.
3: You need to scan so you know when to attack so you don't end up with point number 2.
4: The reason the PF seems like it wasn't necessary is simply because there is NO attempt made to harass the third base with a PF. If you make an OC unless you have an overwhelming advantage it is really weak to any kind of worker harass, since your units tend to rally to your natural. You need a BIG advantage or some kind of position set up like another PF to justify making another OC.
5: If you build your bunkers too far from the wall they can kill your supply depots without your bunker doing anything. Again, you don't notice this because progamers are too smart to have this happen.
6: Upgrades cost money, and the difference between 0 armour marines and 3 armour marines is exactly 0 against colossus so its better to spent the what, let me see:
125+mining timing eng bay about 150 mins
100/100 +1
150/150 +2
200/200 +3
600/450 which you can get what, 4 vikings out of? That 4 vikings makes a really big difference, most of the time people don't plan to have time to get to +3 upgrades in a matchup like tvp. Now maybe double forge openings can work, but justifying having 2-3 less colossus for some armour upgrades is again hard to justify. Maybe its good in a long game, but most games end in the midgame so how do know when it was a good decision.
7: Too many workers? How do you know if 20 less workers means that it cripples his ability to macro a new army after the first dies?
8: If you don't attack when max, it means your opponent has a chance to catch up. Upgrades are cheap relatively at this stage and take a long time to get. Getting more production centres etc is a viable option but what tells you that you benefit more than he does. If he has equal units he can do the same thing, if he has less you went from an army advantage to 0 advantage since he maxes and upgrades but he has some less barracks or something.
I feel like your criticisms stem from situations where they end up being mistakes, but if they did do what you said in the other 80%+ of games you'd say that THEY were mistakes. Everything isn't so clearcut, so please think thoroughly before criticising progamers.
Even if they are 100% mistakes remember these progamers play and practice all day to hone their skills, they don't sit down watching other pro's play and nitpicks very insignificant mistakes and theorycraft improvements.
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^ That sums it up nicely.
They aren't mistakes.
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Progamers in SC2 just aren't as good as SCBW progamers yet. Cuz the game is new.
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Recently started a channel devoted to mistakes: SC2Mistakes on youtube. Or go to www.sc2mistakes.com We are trying to examine common mistakes and figure out the solution. Hope you enjoy!
Questions, suggestions and replays can be sent to info@sc2mistakes.com
User was warned for this post
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EPT
