Can someone thoroughly explain the proper response to a 2 gate zeal opening on python? FE is strong and standard, but I don't see why it's that much better than 2gate. Maybe it's cause I took off a few years and missed the evolution of PvZ 2gate to FE, but on python I am much more comfortable with playing against FE than 2gate. It's true that my game against FE is much more down to a science but considering how dominant FE is over 2gate...i dunno it just seems like people treat 2 gate as a trash build even though I have more trouble with that than FE.

It just seems that a 2gate toss prevents an early 3rd, forces u to make early zlings or sunk, and can take his natural expo after his initial zealot aggression. I can win against it, I make hydras take a 3rd and just macro up, but I often feel that the games are closer and I don't win as handedly as against FE.

ReketSomething

United States6012 Posts

November 18 2010 06:43 GMT

When I am zerg, and I scout 2 gate and early zeals and I see zeals coming I put down a sunken. Lings are good against zealots with proper micro (run away before taking 3 hits) and basically just micro good and dont overly get too many lings or sunkens. Guard the ramp properly with zerglings (so he can't run past the sunken)

Soon after you will have 2 bases + 2 hatches while he has 1 =/ (I am assuming you are 12 hatching)

Apply pressure with lings and don't let him expo for as long as possible.

(C- Zerg back in the day)

edit: yea, I like going hydras but don't forget about lurkers! lurkers are good =P

omg.deus

Korea (South)150 Posts

November 18 2010 06:57 GMT

i don't have a problem with early aggression and I don't think u should put down a sunk unless absolutely necessary...u say u should have 2 bases and 2 hatches but u should have 2 bases and 3 hatches. What often happens is the zealots can't push in so he just quickly expo.

oh...and if somehow during the fighting I manage to get a few lings in the base I feel I have a monumental advantage now...but I always feel that was the other player playing bad and not me playing good...that if any toss was good enough they would always block the ramp at all times.

ReketSomething

United States6012 Posts

November 18 2010 07:08 GMT

What do you mean what often happens is the zealots can't push in so he just quickly expo...Im guessing you mean zerglings. If that is the case just take a 3rd and start getting hydra lurk. He cant move out or you can backstab him since zerglings are faster. If hes getting a forge + cannons + plus1 upgrade and you cant backstab, you can get lurkers. Also, evo chamber walls are VERY Good so on python taking a natural as your 3rd followed by making a wall + sunkens + lurkers make you set for your 4th as well.

edit: whats your rank and maybe you should give a replay =/

FyRe_DragOn

Canada2056 Posts

November 18 2010 07:32 GMT

why is this in blogs and not strategy?

also

if 2gate, your response should be to immediately get gas for speedlings, and throw down as little sunkens as it will take to defend adequately. Take drones off gas once speed is started, and after defending the 1st attack drone up however much is possible. During this time if your opponent made an a gas/core, get 3rd hatch, put drones back on gas and get hydra den + lair, making hydras as needed to defend against any 1base tech. If he expanded, either do the same as above except skip the hydralisk part and get fast lurker or muta, or forgo putting drones back on gas right away in order to take your 3rd base w/ a 4th hatchery, afterwards teching to hydralisks or slow lair.

United States6173 Posts

November 18 2010 07:47 GMT

I almost always went 12 hat in my ZvP games. I don't remember the exact timings, but I do remember by the time the zealots came from a 2 gate, the nat hat would have been up for several seconds (unless it was proxied). Playing against this opening was discussed to death back when in the strategy forums.

In general the safest response was agreed to be just putting down 3-4 sunks at your nat and blocking your ramp with whatever means possible.

I found it more difficult to play against 2 gate opening with a pool first build, tbh. I just never had enough larva to get my ling count high enough if the P decided to commit to it.

omg.deus

Korea (South)150 Posts

November 18 2010 18:47 GMT

1) it's in blog not strategy cause its so old and not relevant but I missed when this discussion was "discussed to death"

2) I usually 12 hatch with 3 hatches and no sunks and successfully fend off the early zealots with just zlings

3) I agree that it may be safe to plant "3-4 sunks at ur nat and block ur ramp" but I think it's suicide cause the toss won't enter and just expo himself and now u committed to static D

the guy who said to get speed ASAP before 3rd hatch against 2gate...is that right? doesn't seem like the best option since they are gonna mass zeals.

id guess im about a high C or a low B but I really don't know. I got to a C a few seasons ago without losing a game so thats my guess

ArvickHero

10387 Posts

November 19 2010 02:03 GMT

2 Gate sucks on maps with long rush distance, like Match Point.. also Forge FE is just simply more reliable

nbtnbt5

232 Posts

November 19 2010 03:15 GMT

http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=87759#9
This is an old post about ZvP vs 2gate, but it's really informative imo. Too bad you can't dl the reps anymore.

Chef

10810 Posts

November 19 2010 03:35 GMT

#10

2gate on python was semi-popular in the proscene when the map first came out, but it was not terribly threatening. Make your pool on 11 instead of 12 and you are okay.

FyRe_DragOn

Canada2056 Posts

November 19 2010 05:49 GMT

#11

how does getting speedlings not seem like the best option against mass zealots? Speedlings rape zealots, slowlings do not. Speedlings give you map control, run by and backstab possibilities, deny scouting, can overwhelm a greedy protoss or defend against an aggressive one. This is definitely the best option.

FiBsTeR

United States415 Posts

November 19 2010 08:02 GMT

#12

On November 18 2010 16:47 PH wrote:
I almost always went 12 hat in my ZvP games. I don't remember the exact timings, but I do remember by the time the zealots came from a 2 gate, the nat hat would have been up for several seconds (unless it was proxied). Playing against this opening was discussed to death back when in the strategy forums.

In general the safest response was agreed to be just putting down 3-4 sunks at your nat and blocking your ramp with whatever means possible.

I found it more difficult to play against 2 gate opening with a pool first build, tbh. I just never had enough larva to get my ling count high enough if the P decided to commit to it.

Hmm I believe a 10gate has the first zealot reach a 12hatch before hatch finishes. And 3-4 sunkens with so few drones already is very good for the P and very bad for Z. As mentioned, you need to make lots of lings. IIRC the Z needs to put down 2 creep colonies and cancel the one that is attacked. Then mass lings and keep harassing the zealots if they try to kill your morphing sunken. If they chase your lings, you have a sunken and some lings and can drone. If they kill the sunken, your lings will kill the zeals and you can drone once the pressure is off. Either case you are ahead.

(C toss, but I rarely 2gated pvz on iccup)

omg.deus

Korea (South)150 Posts

November 20 2010 05:46 GMT

#13

On November 19 2010 12:15 nbtnbt5 wrote:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=87759#9
This is an old post about ZvP vs 2gate, but it's really informative imo. Too bad you can't dl the reps anymore.

I read it but all he's talking about is the early zealot aggression, which I can handle. I agree with most of what he says but I don't agree with having to do the 2/1 fake sunk every time...I only do this if he went earlier than usual 2 gate with 3-4 probes.

my uneasiness comes once I fend off the zealot aggression and he quickly expoes. I'm not super confident what to do. I don't feel good teching to lurks or muts off just 2 bases so I usually end up producing hydras, taking a 3rd and teching to lurks or muts about the time I decide to take a 3rd.

On November 19 2010 14:49 FyRe_DragOn wrote:
how does getting speedlings not seem like the best option against mass zealots? Speedlings rape zealots, slowlings do not. Speedlings give you map control, run by and backstab possibilities, deny scouting, can overwhelm a greedy protoss or defend against an aggressive one. This is definitely the best option.

I said getting gas before 3rd hatch is not the best option. In that guide that user above posted he ended it with going through a list of things that are automatic GG u lose moments and the last one was: "Building gas before third hat, even though tempting is often game." which I agree.

nbtnbt5

232 Posts

November 20 2010 07:22 GMT

#14

On November 20 2010 14:46 omg.deus wrote:

Show nested quote +

Hrm, maybe watch some old savior games for a feel on how to deal with it? Savior used to make ZvP look imba before Bisu 3-0'd him.