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Humbleness

Blogs > LumberJack
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LumberJack
Profile Blog Joined October 2002
United States3355 Posts
November 07 2010 11:14 GMT
#1
We have a saying in my career field, you dont know what you dont know till you dont know it. It sounds cliche, sure, but its said and heard and known for a reason.

I've been in the SC community for over a decade now, meeting the plot brothers at WCG Los Angeles in 2001. Getting cannon rushed by Liquid`Tyler at a lan in 2000 in tyler, tx. Him and Whear showed us how nub we were.

I find myself watching these interviews of players at mlg and shaking my head with shame. They are making themselves look so ridiculous in my opinion. With their sponsor shirts on, their sponsor hoodies on, all this talk about how good they are, how the skill gap from them to the koreans in GSL is infinitesimal, how they hope to go to korea soon and 'compete'.

Then to play absolutely atrocious... Down right awful, going out first round, etc (consistently for some players). Dropping games vs random 1000 rated diamond players and barely winning the series only b/c the opposing player threw away an advantage.

There are half a dozen websites out there with these 'pro gamers' with their shitty bios trying to convince newbs to pay for coaching. Since when did we become so commercial?

You have all these kids on their streams begging for donations and charging people just to talk to them. Its absolutely insane, and the worst part? They arent even good... Their terrible players who just have 1-2 builds and can actually macro to some extent. Who are they to charge people for lessons? 'make men, make production buildings, make peons, roll'

I think people are looking at the null of skill due to the VAST majority of the korean scene still playing SC:BW, so they think they can fill that void and compete. Thats like saying you're a pro gamer at WC2, who are you fighting against though? So you're beating up against random kids on the ladder with your shitty 2k rating and you.. charge people? B/c you can beat randoms? Gratz?

All these 'pro gamers' at MLG talking all that trash in the interviews is pretty amusing, if you actually want to get good you might want to change your attitude from gods gift to SC2 to humble student and actually put some time in to getting better. /end rant

****
Man fears the darkness, and so he scrapes away at the edges of it with fire.
Disregard
Profile Blog Joined March 2007
China10252 Posts
November 07 2010 11:34 GMT
#2
Its true... to be honest it has to be with the lack of an organized progaming scene here, while in Korea players/progamers tend to be wayyyy overly reserved. But what can one do when all those wannabes that are full of themselves with their massive egos?

Though I never cared or put any effort into following MLG, it just doesnt seem like a very natural progaming base? for me.
"If I had to take a drug in order to be free, I'm screwed. Freedom exists in the mind, otherwise it doesn't exist."
Masamune
Profile Joined January 2007
Canada3401 Posts
November 07 2010 11:35 GMT
#3
Woah Lumberjack! I insta-opened this blog because it's been a long time since I've seen you posting here!! Welcome back!!!

I actually try to avoid this topic of paying for lessons because of how touchy it can get. You have one side that says that it doesn't matter what their relative skill is to other top players; as long as there are terribad newbs outs there, they stand to gain something by taking lessons from them. Then you have the other camp that feels it's a waste of money to pay to get better at video games, to which you could also make similar assertions for other activities.

I personally think it's a waste of money to pay to get better at video games, especially at the rates some of these people charge. When people are like "but you pay for dancing lessons!?" I just facepalm because something like dancing is much more useful than your skill at C&C: Space Edition, and it has been woven into human culture since...we became "human"? I think you could make a better case for paying for lessons for anything else in comparison to video games.

I also think lessons hinder the community. If it weren't for this whole money business, we'd have a lot more content in the community in terms of replays and streams etc. Instead, you hear them say "you get full access to my replays if you sign up". I dunno, I don't like it being around but I can understand why it is around, if that makes sense.

/2 cents
Ation
Profile Joined July 2008
Finland102 Posts
November 07 2010 11:53 GMT
#4
Best lesson one can get: Read the blog about the guy who was able to play 26 hours in a row. That's true talent, you will become better if you play like you mean it. The talking about skillllllllz is completely useless in a lot of cases. It just creates an illusion into one's mind.
Slayer91
Profile Joined February 2006
Ireland23335 Posts
November 07 2010 11:58 GMT
#5
Link to interviews. I only say ones from people like liquid`tyler and EG.idra who not only are really fucking good but also know how to play BW so this thread confuses me.

i'll try to find them myself tho
Kraznaya
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States3711 Posts
November 07 2010 12:08 GMT
#6
Yep - the requisite skill for recognition in the SC2 scene is ridiculously low right now. I'm not going to name names, but there are people who have absolutely awful mechanics and wouldn't make C level in Iccup in BW who are big names in the community and have the gall to charge $30+ for lessons. But that's the nature of the current hype surrounding the scene - it's profitable to do that and they have the necessary attention and even their own fanbases.

Fortunately this will change over the years as the scene shrinks but also develops from its currently noob-friendly state. The game is so new right now that basically everyone sucks - for all the mockery that TL's elitism gets, I believe there is significant portion of people here that could take singular games off GSL players - but the learning curve will steepen as the game develops, and we'll know which players are actually worth watching.

do you have enough resolve, hero of justice?
craz3d
Profile Joined August 2005
Bulgaria856 Posts
November 07 2010 12:39 GMT
#7
Which players are we talking about? I never saw any of that shit on the MLG stream. In fact the interviews I saw were of Idra and Nony, and they came off very humble.
Hello World!
LumberJack
Profile Blog Joined October 2002
United States3355 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-11-07 12:44:24
November 07 2010 12:41 GMT
#8
I didnt really want to name names, but in the name of logic and science i guess i should. Gretorp (dallas) and incontrol (dc).

edit: gretorp said that the skill gap between himself and koreans was minimal, and that he hoped to go to korea to compete. incontrol went on for 20min about how amazing he was, how amazing his team was, etc, just to cannon rush his teammate machine and still not go past the third round.
Man fears the darkness, and so he scrapes away at the edges of it with fire.
Slayer91
Profile Joined February 2006
Ireland23335 Posts
November 07 2010 12:45 GMT
#9
On November 07 2010 21:41 LumberJack wrote:
I didnt really want to name names, but in the name of logic and science i guess i should. Gretorp (dallas) and incontrol (dc).


Gretorp only trains 3 hours a day and is really smart/strategically minded. He didn't say anything particularly cocky but he's the kinda social guy who probably is better in an environment full of people.
Incontrol has always been really outspoken.
LumberJack
Profile Blog Joined October 2002
United States3355 Posts
November 07 2010 12:48 GMT
#10
On November 07 2010 21:08 Kraznaya wrote:
Yep - the requisite skill for recognition in the SC2 scene is ridiculously low right now. I'm not going to name names, but there are people who have absolutely awful mechanics and wouldn't make C level in Iccup in BW who are big names in the community and have the gall to charge $30+ for lessons. But that's the nature of the current hype surrounding the scene - it's profitable to do that and they have the necessary attention and even their own fanbases.

Fortunately this will change over the years as the scene shrinks but also develops from its currently noob-friendly state. The game is so new right now that basically everyone sucks - for all the mockery that TL's elitism gets, I believe there is significant portion of people here that could take singular games off GSL players - but the learning curve will steepen as the game develops, and we'll know which players are actually worth watching.



very well put imo
Man fears the darkness, and so he scrapes away at the edges of it with fire.
BottleAbuser
Profile Blog Joined December 2007
Korea (South)1888 Posts
November 07 2010 12:51 GMT
#11
Interviews are marketing. If you say "I don't know, we probably won't win" your sponsors will not be happy. "We have a very good chance of winning" (and putting in a good performance) is the way to keep your sponsorship.
Compilers are like boyfriends, you miss a period and they go crazy on you.
Kraznaya
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States3711 Posts
November 07 2010 12:56 GMT
#12
On November 07 2010 21:51 BottleAbuser wrote:
Interviews are marketing. If you say "I don't know, we probably won't win" your sponsors will not be happy. "We have a very good chance of winning" (and putting in a good performance) is the way to keep your sponsorship.


It's pretty easy to contrast SC2 foreigner interviews with Korean progamer interviews (especially BW veterans) and see the marked difference in humility demonstrated. There's a difference between confidence and arrogance.
do you have enough resolve, hero of justice?
BottleAbuser
Profile Blog Joined December 2007
Korea (South)1888 Posts
November 07 2010 12:59 GMT
#13
I haven't watched many interviews, but I do remember some time ago 마재윤 and 이윤열 both going "I'm gonna win this" in interviews.
Compilers are like boyfriends, you miss a period and they go crazy on you.
Slayer91
Profile Joined February 2006
Ireland23335 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-11-07 13:06:48
November 07 2010 13:06 GMT
#14
Yeah its definitely a part of mindgames as well. It's not a prediction. Actually knowing savior and nada they both fully believed what they said.
Kraznaya
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States3711 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-11-07 13:08:12
November 07 2010 13:06 GMT
#15
On November 07 2010 21:59 BottleAbuser wrote:
I haven't watched many interviews, but I do remember some time ago 마재윤 and 이윤열 both going "I'm gonna win this" in interviews.


Like I said, there's a difference in projecting confidence and arrogance. A lot of the foreigners currently lack the tact to avoid the latter in favor of the former. You can predict to win - but you don't have to flaunt your own perceived talents or your opponent's weaknesses in doing so.
do you have enough resolve, hero of justice?
floor exercise
Profile Blog Joined August 2008
Canada5847 Posts
November 07 2010 14:27 GMT
#16
You can count the truly talented number of NA BW players on one hand, it's not much different in SC2.

There definitely are a huge number of self acclaimed tactical geniuses who do the most basic marine marauder build every single game
craz3d
Profile Joined August 2005
Bulgaria856 Posts
November 07 2010 15:06 GMT
#17
On November 07 2010 21:41 LumberJack wrote:
I didnt really want to name names, but in the name of logic and science i guess i should. Gretorp (dallas) and incontrol (dc).

edit: gretorp said that the skill gap between himself and koreans was minimal, and that he hoped to go to korea to compete. incontrol went on for 20min about how amazing he was, how amazing his team was, etc, just to cannon rush his teammate machine and still not go past the third round.


It is arrogant, but when you're at a tournament with the aim to win, unshakable confidence in yourself can go a long way, as long as your ego can handle losing. We gotta remember that SC2 is a sport, and in sport there will be trash talking and talking yourself up. The scene is much different than in 2000/2001 when the vocation of scpro had just come into existence.
Hello World!
radar14
Profile Blog Joined December 2002
United States1437 Posts
November 07 2010 15:19 GMT
#18
Spare us the righteous indignation. That's how the world works. The majority of sc2 gamers are in their early to mid twenties. If they want to continue gaming at a high level (when everyone in society is telling them to get "real jobs") they had better be able to sell themselves, maintain sponsorships, and gain new opportunities. Being able to articulate yourself in a confident manner is absolutely an asset. Obviously some do it better or worse than others. I don't envy what they do. The large majority of these people will not make it professionally. Of those that do, the majority will never make more than the equivalent of minimum wage for the hours they put in. This is America. If you don't like what they're selling then don't fucking buy it.
impatience is a virtue
LumberJack
Profile Blog Joined October 2002
United States3355 Posts
November 08 2010 01:53 GMT
#19
On November 08 2010 00:19 radar14 wrote:
Spare us the righteous indignation. That's how the world works. The majority of sc2 gamers are in their early to mid twenties. If they want to continue gaming at a high level (when everyone in society is telling them to get "real jobs") they had better be able to sell themselves, maintain sponsorships, and gain new opportunities. Being able to articulate yourself in a confident manner is absolutely an asset. Obviously some do it better or worse than others. I don't envy what they do. The large majority of these people will not make it professionally. Of those that do, the majority will never make more than the equivalent of minimum wage for the hours they put in. This is America. If you don't like what they're selling then don't fucking buy it.


I dont agree with that at all. The scene didnt used to be that way, they are literally scamming people, scamming their sponsors, etc. Thats crap and a cop out. 'Hate the game, not the player' mentality doesnt fit here. Convincing sponsors that you are actually good, could actually compete, its pathetic when you cant. I guess its their scam, their hustle, i shouldnt care. The whole point of the blog wasnt to point fingers, but to say how disgusted I am with all these mediocre players calling themselves pro and that they are going to win it all, just to consistently get out in early rounds.
Man fears the darkness, and so he scrapes away at the edges of it with fire.
palanq
Profile Blog Joined December 2004
United States761 Posts
November 08 2010 02:38 GMT
#20
maybe these players think they are good. maybe they are, maybe they're not. but if so, they're not scamming anyone - at worst, they're deluding themselves (and their sponsors/students).

as for the lessons stuff, you only have to be X amount better than your student to teach them something. obviously the teacher shouldn't misrepresent their skill and student's shouldn't pay for lessons they won't learn anything from.
time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana
BuGzlToOnl
Profile Blog Joined November 2006
United States5918 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-11-08 02:43:39
November 08 2010 02:42 GMT
#21
Amen. Everyone is pretty much trying to cash in on this SCII thing in hopes that it will become what BW once was. But IMHO they are doing nothing but slowly killing it before it actually becomes worth anything.
If you want to make God laugh, tell Him your plans.
MrBitter
Profile Joined January 2008
United States2940 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-11-08 02:50:34
November 08 2010 02:47 GMT
#22
I pay for lessons from iNcontroL.

I think they're freaking awesome. I'm a 2100 Diamond player. I'm 25 years old, I make a comfortable living, and I fucking love SC2.

I would love to be able to go out and be competitive in this game, but I don't really have a network of friends/practice partners who play anywhere near my level.

I'm not good enough to be a sponsored player, and I don't have connections with pros.

What better way to reach a higher level than by paying someone who has been there? Someone who is around it every day... Someone who can watch me play, tell me what I'm doing wrong, and give me legit guidance towards getting better?

People pay for chess lessons. People pay for poker lessons. People pay to learn to do all sorts of things...

I don't understand why its frowned upon to seek guidance for becoming better at something you enjoy...

Edit:

And to those of you saying that the lessons taught by these "alleged coaches" are a scam, I invite you to actually look and see what we're paying for:

http://www.livestream.com/mrbitter/video?clipId=pla_cbc6e062-d0a2-40a4-a012-f53cf2fe1dcd&utm_source=lslibrary&utm_medium=ui-thumb

Coaching starts at 25:08. I played sports through school. I've trained in martial arts for years. The quality of instruction I get from iNcontroL is easily on par with some of the best coaches I've come to know in my lifetime.
ZoW
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
United States3983 Posts
November 08 2010 02:50 GMT
#23
Seems like its just people riding the E-SPORTS bubble spawned by the release of sc2. You have people who see its a nice, easy way to make money with little to no experience, so they just hop on the bandwagon. it'll inevitably die down once the game ages to a certain extent. Until then all we can do is wait it out :\
the courage to be a lazy bum
LumberJack
Profile Blog Joined October 2002
United States3355 Posts
November 08 2010 03:02 GMT
#24
On November 08 2010 11:38 palanq wrote:
maybe these players think they are good. maybe they are, maybe they're not. but if so, they're not scamming anyone - at worst, they're deluding themselves (and their sponsors/students).


except that with that delusion, comes money. They are convincing sponsors to PAY them with a LIE. I'm pretty sure webster would agree that that's a scam
Man fears the darkness, and so he scrapes away at the edges of it with fire.
LumberJack
Profile Blog Joined October 2002
United States3355 Posts
November 08 2010 03:08 GMT
#25
On November 08 2010 11:47 MrBitter wrote:
I pay for lessons from iNcontroL.

I think they're freaking awesome. I'm a 2100 Diamond player. I'm 25 years old, I make a comfortable living, and I fucking love SC2.

I would love to be able to go out and be competitive in this game, but I don't really have a network of friends/practice partners who play anywhere near my level.

I'm not good enough to be a sponsored player, and I don't have connections with pros.

What better way to reach a higher level than by paying someone who has been there? Someone who is around it every day... Someone who can watch me play, tell me what I'm doing wrong, and give me legit guidance towards getting better?

People pay for chess lessons. People pay for poker lessons. People pay to learn to do all sorts of things...

I don't understand why its frowned upon to seek guidance for becoming better at something you enjoy...

Edit:

And to those of you saying that the lessons taught by these "alleged coaches" are a scam, I invite you to actually look and see what we're paying for:

http://www.livestream.com/mrbitter/video?clipId=pla_cbc6e062-d0a2-40a4-a012-f53cf2fe1dcd&utm_source=lslibrary&utm_medium=ui-thumb

Coaching starts at 25:08. I played sports through school. I've trained in martial arts for years. The quality of instruction I get from iNcontroL is easily on par with some of the best coaches I've come to know in my lifetime.


I didnt want this to turn into a lesson debate. If you want to get a lesson from someone just b/c he was in reality show, sure, go for it. If that makes you feel good inside to have someone else tell you not to supply block yourself. If you feel like thats a positive thing in your life, then pay for it. I think paying for a lapdance would probably do you better good, but thats just my opinion

The point that I'm making is that there are literally DOZENS of guys who are just random guys who know 1 or 2 builds and can spend their money, who are charging people for lessons, and calling themselves pro.

There are people going to events, scamming their sponsors by convincing them that they have what it takes to win and get their product out there so people will want to be them, and use their product.

I'm not saying ALL players are like that, not at all. There are some who are trying to milk the scene for all its worth, and its disgusting to me.

Man fears the darkness, and so he scrapes away at the edges of it with fire.
whatever
Profile Joined July 2005
Mexico693 Posts
November 08 2010 04:24 GMT
#26
Completely agree. You forgot to mention some casters. I find depressing that some of them have absolutely no experience in casting, minimal knowledge in Starcraft or RTS games in general, yet they urge you to suscribe and claim to be "learning the game".
Time is always on my side
Gatsbi
Profile Joined April 2010
United States1134 Posts
November 08 2010 04:37 GMT
#27
I have to completely agree with this. The caliber of player that gets sponsored at the moment in SC2 is honestly pathetic. It's just that the sponsors don't know enough about the game to know that these people are genuinely not that talented. As you said.. it really is a scam.
"IF WHAT YOU DO NOT KNOW IS MORE THAN WHAT YOU HAVE KNOWN. THEN YOU HAVE NOT KNOWN ANYTHINIG YET." - Rev Kojo Smith
A3iL3r0n
Profile Blog Joined October 2002
United States2196 Posts
November 08 2010 06:16 GMT
#28
You're shitting on everything because it isn't an immaculately refined product yet, like the NFL? You should be supporting the e-sports scene. This is a brand new enterprise, of course it isn't going to be perfect. Besides who's getting scammed, corporations? Noobs who think these guys are better than Koreans? So what. I don't get your point. It's just negativity for its own sake.
My psychiatrist says I have deep-seated Ragneuroses :(
LumberJack
Profile Blog Joined October 2002
United States3355 Posts
November 08 2010 07:16 GMT
#29
How am I shitting on everything if its only a small portion of the scene doing it? Or is your argument that everyone is doing it?

'brand new enterprise'

[image loading]

yea, its kind of like that.
Man fears the darkness, and so he scrapes away at the edges of it with fire.
Rekrul
Profile Blog Joined November 2002
Korea (South)17174 Posts
November 08 2010 07:36 GMT
#30
Let the silly newbs live their little moment while it lasts.

As time goes on they will fade into nothingness.
why so 진지해?
Rekrul
Profile Blog Joined November 2002
Korea (South)17174 Posts
November 08 2010 08:14 GMT
#31
On November 07 2010 21:51 BottleAbuser wrote:
Interviews are marketing. If you say "I don't know, we probably won't win" your sponsors will not be happy. "We have a very good chance of winning" (and putting in a good performance) is the way to keep your sponsorship.


This too. They have to do it. It's all in good fun anyways, if everyone was down to earth like you seem to want then e-sports would be pretty damn boring.

Don't be jealous of the pro-gamers Lumberjack!
why so 진지해?
Entropic
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
Canada2837 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-11-08 08:30:32
November 08 2010 08:30 GMT
#32
On November 08 2010 17:14 Rekrul wrote:
This too. They have to do it. It's all in good fun anyways, if everyone was down to earth like you seem to want then e-sports would be pretty damn boring.


Oh god this... I don't want anymore Korean style interviews (ie. copy+paste Thanks my team, my opponent was tough, I was just lucky, I'd like to thank my mother, my father, etc etc)
Loanshark
Profile Blog Joined December 2008
China3094 Posts
November 08 2010 08:36 GMT
#33
I gotta agree with some the stuff that Lumberjack is talking about here, the SC2 scene is just too damn full of noobs/casuals and that's not the only problem.
No dough, no go. And no mercy.
LumberJack
Profile Blog Joined October 2002
United States3355 Posts
November 08 2010 09:30 GMT
#34
On November 08 2010 17:14 Rekrul wrote:

This too. They have to do it. It's all in good fun anyways, if everyone was down to earth like you seem to want then e-sports would be pretty damn boring.



ROLF SUP?

haha long time mr dan.

TBH, i do agree with this statement. Isn't there a balance though? I'd like to think that you can still be crazy and fun and not be super arrogant and cocky. I think its one thing to be arrogant and cocky (idra) and actually perform, its another to be that way, and play god awful and just make up excuses over and over for every tournament failure you've had so far.

I watched some of the Lo3 post MLG and i thought it was a great cast, 3hrs of drunken party with interviews inbetween. To me, thats different than the korean scene, and I'm totally ok with that. It just really bothers me to see randoms charging people, and really bad amature players calling themselves pro by convincing someone to pay them to lose.
Man fears the darkness, and so he scrapes away at the edges of it with fire.
Disregard
Profile Blog Joined March 2007
China10252 Posts
November 08 2010 09:31 GMT
#35
On November 08 2010 17:14 Rekrul wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 07 2010 21:51 BottleAbuser wrote:
Interviews are marketing. If you say "I don't know, we probably won't win" your sponsors will not be happy. "We have a very good chance of winning" (and putting in a good performance) is the way to keep your sponsorship.


This too. They have to do it. It's all in good fun anyways, if everyone was down to earth like you seem to want then e-sports would be pretty damn boring.

Don't be jealous of the pro-gamers Lumberjack!


Thats why we have Grack!
"If I had to take a drug in order to be free, I'm screwed. Freedom exists in the mind, otherwise it doesn't exist."
Rekrul
Profile Blog Joined November 2002
Korea (South)17174 Posts
November 08 2010 09:39 GMT
#36
On November 08 2010 18:30 LumberJack wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 08 2010 17:14 Rekrul wrote:

This too. They have to do it. It's all in good fun anyways, if everyone was down to earth like you seem to want then e-sports would be pretty damn boring.



ROLF SUP?

haha long time mr dan.

TBH, i do agree with this statement. Isn't there a balance though? I'd like to think that you can still be crazy and fun and not be super arrogant and cocky. I think its one thing to be arrogant and cocky (idra) and actually perform, its another to be that way, and play god awful and just make up excuses over and over for every tournament failure you've had so far.

I watched some of the Lo3 post MLG and i thought it was a great cast, 3hrs of drunken party with interviews inbetween. To me, thats different than the korean scene, and I'm totally ok with that. It just really bothers me to see randoms charging people, and really bad amature players calling themselves pro by convincing someone to pay them to lose.


yeah, don't worry, the foreigners suck series might have to be revived sc2 edition
why so 진지해?
shannn
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Netherlands2891 Posts
November 08 2010 12:38 GMT
#37
In a certain extent I do agree that some people are scamming. Making up that they're pro while they actually are not. But this depends on the quality (with quality I mean skill) of people.
With the release of sc2 there is a booming increase of new players joining the esports scene or coming from other scenes to jump along in the bandwagon that is starcraft.

Obviously the majority are really bad and some of them want to be very competetive and are willing to pay players who are better than themselves so they can improve.
This is the same from every other sport.

When you hire a personal trainer ofcourse you're going to expect at least that they can teach you something which will make you improve while these trainers probably aren't the best in their fields or near that.

You might think people like Gretorp/incontrol is bad (whether this is true or not is subjective and does not matter in this argument) but a new player will think otherwise and thus is willing to pay for these lessons.

In that sense it may be a scam in your eyes as the players you question are not that great but this is all a matter of opinion and the players who take these lessons are of the opinion that these players are in fact great. Atleast great enough to pay for lessons.

It's the same as in the strategy forums. People make themselves out to be the best and theorycraft their answers that they are right and thus the rest is wrong. This is all subjective in the eyes of the paying customer. Let it be. These people are smart for earning money by it as they seem to have thought about this.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=6321864 Epic post.
DND_Enkil
Profile Joined September 2010
Sweden598 Posts
November 08 2010 15:53 GMT
#38
I just have to point out that skill in playing the game is not directly linked to skill in teaching the game. There are plenty of teachers in all fields that has a solid understanding about what they teach and great skills when it comes to analyze and teach without being top-of-the pros.

Not all Football coaches has been pros in thier past, and few of them top pros. If people are lying in the ads saying the are much better than they really are at playing that is one thing, but if they are honest in the adds they should really be judged on one thing and one thing only, the quality of the lessons they provide.

Looking around in the site where they sell lessons I dont see any lies at all, they list thier achivements and a small bio (obviously in as positive light as they can, they are trying to sell themself after all).

Only checked that website tho, i'm sure there are several and in some cases the quality of the teachers and lessons might be so low to justify the term scamming. But if so, cant you try to point out thoose instead of pointing a finger at all of them?

My economy is a bit stretched atm. but i could totally see myself paying for a lesson sometime in the future, i have taken lessons in golf, tennis and PT-trainers in the past and i spent way less time in thoose sports then I playing/watching SC2. Not so much because i want to be "competetive" but because i enjoy improving and just think it would be fun. I see this as a win-win situation, I get a fun lesson and they get some cash.

And if there is the possibility of sponsors then players are gonna hype themself in order to land a sponsor contract. If the sponsors are clueless and takes the players word for granted, well... thats pretty stupid aint it? Same with paying for lessons, it aint that hard to do a simple background check on someone, google the name.

The one thing where i really do agree with you is about excuses when losing, i half expect players to be extremely cocky before a tournament (like IncontroL). Building up the own ego can help a lot, and if nothing else it is fun to watch and makes it interesting. But i hate when players lack humility and respect for the opponent after a loss. Pulling excuses out of thier ass and doing everything but admit that the other player played better. Dont have to say that the opponent is better, but admit that right there and then he played better. (no example on this atm)


Anyways, counter-rant over...
"If you write about a sewing needle there is always some one-eyed bastard that gets offended" - Fritiof The Pirate Nilsson
Mothra
Profile Blog Joined November 2009
United States1448 Posts
November 08 2010 17:15 GMT
#39
On November 09 2010 00:53 DND_Enkil wrote:
There are plenty of teachers in all fields that has a solid understanding about what they teach and great skills when it comes to analyze and teach without being top-of-the pros.


I agree with this, and also about the players being obligated to hype themselves and their team. Haven't been following SC2 too closely but some of the commentators are really irritating (someone made a blog about that before). As people said, the skill level will go up over time and the bad players weeded out.
Garrl
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
Scotland1972 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-11-08 20:55:41
November 08 2010 20:51 GMT
#40
On November 08 2010 11:42 BuGzlToOnl wrote:
Amen. Everyone is pretty much trying to cash in on this SCII thing in hopes that it will become what BW once was. But IMHO they are doing nothing but slowly killing it before it actually becomes worth anything.


^

The fact that many people decided they were going to be "THE BEST SC2 PROGAMER EVER" before the beta even came out (looking at you, BW foriegners like IdrA) shows this; they didn't even know if the game was going to be any good before they decided to switch. The guy who posted a blog saying he wanted to become a progamer when he said he didn't even know the hotkeys epitomises this.

imo, the SC2 scene only exists because Blizzard are pumping a ton of money into it in hopes of cashing in later; the BW scene started up without large investors for a reason: it was actually good, instead of just being marketed as "AN ESPORTS GAME". (ahem C&C Generals/ZH, marketed as the next big esports game, died out a few months after).
Deleted User 3420
Profile Blog Joined May 2003
24492 Posts
November 08 2010 20:56 GMT
#41
On November 07 2010 20:14 LumberJack wrote:
I've been in the SC community for over a decade now, meeting the plot brothers at WCG Los Angeles in 2001. Getting cannon rushed by Liquid`Tyler at a lan in 2000 in tyler, tx. Him and Whear showed us how nub we were.


i didn't even know nony played in 2000
can't imagine him showing anyone how nub they were in any manner than by being equally nub, back then


now whear on the other hand woulda been a diff manner



(no insult meant to nony of course, this isn't the year 2000, and nony is crazy good)
crazeman
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
664 Posts
November 08 2010 21:07 GMT
#42
On November 09 2010 05:51 Garrl wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 08 2010 11:42 BuGzlToOnl wrote:
Amen. Everyone is pretty much trying to cash in on this SCII thing in hopes that it will become what BW once was. But IMHO they are doing nothing but slowly killing it before it actually becomes worth anything.


^

The fact that many people decided they were going to be "THE BEST SC2 PROGAMER EVER" before the beta even came out (looking at you, BW foriegners like IdrA) shows this; they didn't even know if the game was going to be any good before they decided to switch. The guy who posted a blog saying he wanted to become a progamer when he said he didn't even know the hotkeys epitomises this.

imo, the SC2 scene only exists because Blizzard are pumping a ton of money into it in hopes of cashing in later; the BW scene started up without large investors for a reason: it was actually good, instead of just being marketed as "AN ESPORTS GAME". (ahem C&C Generals/ZH, marketed as the next big esports game, died out a few months after).


There's a ton of I'M GOING TO BE THE NEXT PROGAMER blogs out there but most of them are just people having fun and seeing if they can get to diamond if they put in the time. They're not actually aiming to be 'pro' gamers.

And really, there isn't really any "progamers" in SC2 yet. The term is used too liberally to describe someone who's really good. The only one who's self sustainable is Fruitdealer and the future winner of GSL2.
Chill
Profile Blog Joined January 2005
Calgary25980 Posts
November 08 2010 21:14 GMT
#43
Here's one: Why do people always list their rating with a + on the end? Do they round down and then add a plus to show they anticipate always being above that rating?

Instead of a 2105 rated playing listing his stream as "2100+ Diamond", how about "2105 Diamond" or, fuck, even just "2100 Diamond". You never see "2199- Diamond". Why is that?

You never saw anyone in BW list their ICCup rating as "(C-)+". Was that just because of the rating system? You never saw ">C-" or "at least C-" or "min C-".
Moderator
Deleted User 3420
Profile Blog Joined May 2003
24492 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-11-08 21:19:09
November 08 2010 21:18 GMT
#44
On November 09 2010 06:14 Chill wrote:
Here's one: Why do people always list their rating with a + on the end? Do they round down and then add a plus to show they anticipate always being above that rating?

Instead of a 2105 rated playing listing his stream as "2100+ Diamond", how about "2105 Diamond" or, fuck, even just "2100 Diamond". You never see "2199- Diamond". Why is that?

You never saw anyone in BW list their ICCup rating as "(C-)+". Was that just because of the rating system? You never saw ">C-" or "at least C-" or "min C-".


because point inflation just about insures that a person will go up in rating over time

and clearly no one wants to sell theirselves short
RisingTide
Profile Joined December 2008
Australia769 Posts
November 08 2010 21:30 GMT
#45
On November 09 2010 06:14 Chill wrote:
Here's one: Why do people always list their rating with a + on the end? Do they round down and then add a plus to show they anticipate always being above that rating?

Instead of a 2105 rated playing listing his stream as "2100+ Diamond", how about "2105 Diamond" or, fuck, even just "2100 Diamond". You never see "2199- Diamond". Why is that?

You never saw anyone in BW list their ICCup rating as "(C-)+". Was that just because of the rating system? You never saw ">C-" or "at least C-" or "min C-".


It's because no one wants to seem anal about the exact amount of points they have, yet at the same time don't want to sell themselves short, and ultimately use more brainpower and an extra character to express their rank.

Although to be fair, in Brood War PLENTY of people used to describe themselves as "C+ but have reached B"
[Atomic]Peace
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States451 Posts
November 08 2010 21:36 GMT
#46
I agree with the general principle of the post but I think certain points are misguided. If people want to spend money on terrible coaching, let them. If sponsors want to pay for players that don't have what it takes, they can do that too. What is important to realize is that both of these things are not sustainable. Players will be unhappy with the coaching they receive and they will stop playing the bad players. Sponsors will run out of money and be forced to be more selective with who they sign. What we are seeing is a bubble which is sure to be short lived. In time everything will settle down.
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