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On October 24 2010 15:16 iPlaY.NettleS wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2010 14:21 kaisr wrote:
lol yeh. Was C- in BW, played sc2 for one week, tried to play one game of BW: ridiculous fail split, didn't build first probe, wondered why hotkeys were so far away, felt sad I couldn't MBS lost shortly after. so you got up to c- , played sc2 for a week then completely forgot how to play brood war. Don't start riding motorbikes or you might forget how to drive cars....
You are retarded rofl do you know how weird it is to switch back like that? The hotkeys are all different and it fucks with your muscle memory a lot. I am sure he just meant the first game back. You get a lot back after around 2 games. I still think BW PvZ is the most fun I have ever had.
I played Zerg as a main and protoss on SC2 one of the reasons is so I don't fuck with my hotkeys for each game.
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10387 Posts
On October 24 2010 16:22 KrAzYfoOL wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2010 16:12 ArvickHero wrote:On October 24 2010 16:02 KrAzYfoOL wrote:
Actually SC2 having come out has worked out great for me. Tried it, wasn't my thing, didn't bother crying about how it's not like BW and I went back into my FPS roots.
Oh yeah, forgot to mention, there are other games outside of BW and SC2, yeah I know, when I found out it blew me away too. forgot to mention that those other games could possibly not be other people's cup of tea too, yea that also blew me away Nor can they be mine, seeing as how fucking many they are and how many more games I've yet to try? My bets on these whingers not branching out and actually trying other games.
What's the point of this? Why do you assume people who play BW/SC2 don't play other games.
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On October 24 2010 13:51 Hikko wrote:
I do miss some aspects of Brood War.
I don't miss the Dragoon AI
I don't miss the sheer amount of units that were just useless/overly situational
I don't miss Scarab AI
I don't miss the UI that didn't register your actions when you went too fast
I don't miss 12-unit control groups
I don't miss the manual worker placement to minerals
I don't miss memorizing intricate setups in order to make ling-proof wall offs in every position on every map
I don't miss the crummy worker AI
I don't miss iCCup smurfs
I don't miss all the drop hackers
I don't miss all the map hackers
I don't miss crappy old Battle.Net
After seeing the GSL finals and now the Boxer vs FruitDealer showmatch, I know for a fact that Starcraft 2 can surpass every single epic game of Brood War, even on the current map pool.
God i think you were pretty bad amirite?
Sairs in PvT is awesome and Scouts in PvZ are awesome wtf are you talking about
Theres a way you can use scarabs by not dropping them behind minerals and such.
Man, 12unit control groups makes it more fun cause you can do more than just 1a
lol
Actually, the fact that you can wall off with 3 pylons piss me off
Worker AI were so awesome
and now crappy old battle.net? wtf man what makes SC2's bnet better?
On October 24 2010 16:27 0mgVitaminE wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2010 13:51 Hikko wrote:
I don't miss the UI that didn't register your actions when you went too fast
When have you gone "too fast" for the UI? I have never seen this happen, and it doesn't happen to pros playing at 300apm. I'm assuming you weren't going much faster than that.
It happens to me for some reason and i am not fast at all. probably some keyboard malfunction or my fingers accidentally press 2 when im hotkeying 1
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10387 Posts
On October 24 2010 16:31 Kenpachi wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2010 16:27 0mgVitaminE wrote:On October 24 2010 13:51 Hikko wrote:
I don't miss the UI that didn't register your actions when you went too fast
When have you gone "too fast" for the UI? I have never seen this happen, and it doesn't happen to pros playing at 300apm. I'm assuming you weren't going much faster than that. It happens to me for some reason and i am not fast at all. probably some keyboard malfunction or my fingers accidentally press 2 when im hotkeying 1
To explain this, it's because you probably have your mouse key still clicked down when you press a keyboard button or vice versa, so it doesn't register the action. So you have to be extremely precise and quick with your keystrokes/clicks, and playing at 350+ APM is a true testament to speed and dexterity.
Example: 1a2a3a4a. if you have your mouse click still pressed when you press 2, your control group won't change to 2.
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On October 24 2010 16:31 ArvickHero wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2010 16:22 KrAzYfoOL wrote:On October 24 2010 16:12 ArvickHero wrote:On October 24 2010 16:02 KrAzYfoOL wrote:
Actually SC2 having come out has worked out great for me. Tried it, wasn't my thing, didn't bother crying about how it's not like BW and I went back into my FPS roots.
Oh yeah, forgot to mention, there are other games outside of BW and SC2, yeah I know, when I found out it blew me away too. forgot to mention that those other games could possibly not be other people's cup of tea too, yea that also blew me away Nor can they be mine, seeing as how fucking many they are and how many more games I've yet to try? My bets on these whingers not branching out and actually trying other games. What's the point of this? Why do you assume people who play BW/SC2 don't play other games.
Going off your other posts made in this thread. I think you're far too stupid to understand my point.
It was worth a shot though.
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On October 24 2010 13:51 Hikko wrote:
I don't miss the Dragoon AI
I don't miss the sheer amount of units that were just useless/overly situational
I don't miss Scarab AI
I don't miss the UI that didn't register your actions when you went too fast
I don't miss 12-unit control groups
I don't miss the manual worker placement to minerals
I don't miss memorizing intricate setups in order to make ling-proof wall offs in every position on every map haha you're basically saying "i don't miss things that required skills and practice". dragoon AI could be beaten. SC2 also has some very situational units. scarab AI was stupid, yeah. UI registered all of my actions, don't know what you're talking about. seriously if you're working fast enough to beat the UI, then you're working faster than progamers who don't have problems with it and i highly doubt that. once again, skill for the last 3.
On October 24 2010 13:51 Hikko wrote:
I don't miss the crummy worker AI
I don't miss iCCup smurfs
I don't miss all the drop hackers
I don't miss all the map hackers
I don't miss crappy old Battle.Net yeah... whatever. seriously outside of the beginning of each season only C- egoists smurfed or /reset and they were easily beatable. iccup takes care of the rest. don't know what you mean by "crummy worker AI".
let's keep making up more ridiculous reasons why BW sucked so hard.
On October 24 2010 16:31 Kenpachi wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2010 16:27 0mgVitaminE wrote:On October 24 2010 13:51 Hikko wrote:
I don't miss the UI that didn't register your actions when you went too fast
When have you gone "too fast" for the UI? I have never seen this happen, and it doesn't happen to pros playing at 300apm. I'm assuming you weren't going much faster than that. It happens to me for some reason and i am not fast at all. probably some keyboard malfunction or my fingers accidentally press 2 when im hotkeying 1 iirc SC doesn't register 2 keys pressed together. so instead of doing either control group 1 or control group 2 it just does neither. but that just required a bit of skill to overcome.
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It's not only about the game itself, it's also about the shitty bnet 2.0.
I've met two of my best IRL friends on bnet chat channels (hi firlou if you read this <3)
We used to rape some teams we hated in 3v3/2v2, then smurf, meet in our "secret" channel, and rape them again, and take new smurf accounts, hahaha, we really had so much fun.
SC2 is just about laddering like a robot, you'll say it's the same on iccup, except that the game is boring.
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On October 24 2010 12:59 konadora wrote:i agree, there's just something about SC2 that i can't reproduce from BW 
): Seriously.
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Brood War will never be surpassed, but SC2 is still an amazing game.
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SC2 is pretty fun in its own way but definitely nowhere close to scbw.
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On October 24 2010 13:51 Hikko wrote:
I do miss some aspects of Brood War.
I don't miss the Dragoon AI
I don't miss the sheer amount of units that were just useless/overly situational
I don't miss Scarab AI
I don't miss the UI that didn't register your actions when you went too fast
I don't miss 12-unit control groups
I don't miss the manual worker placement to minerals
I don't miss memorizing intricate setups in order to make ling-proof wall offs in every position on every map
I don't miss the crummy worker AI
I don't miss iCCup smurfs
I don't miss all the drop hackers
I don't miss all the map hackers
I don't miss crappy old Battle.Net
After seeing the GSL finals and now the Boxer vs FruitDealer showmatch, I know for a fact that Starcraft 2 can surpass every single epic game of Brood War, even on the current map pool.
-Dragoon AI WASN'T. THAT. BAD, seriously, I mainrace as zerg and I can use dragoons well.
-What. I can't think of a single unit that is "overly situational" - every unit can carry through to from early game to lategame (you might say, I don't know, Reavers were used as harrass units, but with good enough positioning, you can easily use them to defend or attack a position.
-Scarab AI being bad was null if you had good enough positioning (note not "micro" - you can position your units with a shuttle while 1a2a3aing your goons/zeals).
-Still happens in SC2.
-Counter point to SC2: blob vs blob combat.
I don't miss crappy old Battle.Net
Chat channels.
I don't miss all the drop hackers
I don't miss all the map hackers
Iccup antihack. Blizzard's anti hack code is still AWFUL - warping in immortals because their netcode is shitty? That's, uh, pretty bad, and reeks of being rushed to ship.
Joined TL.net Saturday, 1st of May 2010
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There is really a distinction between skill and pure mechanical training. Automine and MBS are examples of things that get rid of pure mechanical training. These two things are intuitive systems that make sense. When I first played Brood War, I was confused why workers didn't automatically mine when I rallied them to a mineral patch. It seemed needlessly complex. Training yourself to do that isn't a measurement of your skill. It's a measurement of how well you can remember to do one action every 15 seconds. Building the next worker on time? Catching the next macro cycle? The difference for these is that it is not clear that you actually want the next worker or the next unit to immediately follow, whereas it is very clear you want your worker to go somewhere. Learning to do these things properly are the actual skills, and they are preserved in SC2. Yes, SC2 has an easier macro setup, but that doesn't make it inferior. You might imagine a system where you have 1 worker and you need to constantly move it back and forth from the mineral line manually. I think you would agree that moving that worker is not a very valuable skill. SC2 simply gets rid of some tedium, giving you time to spend your apm elsewhere.
The fact that Brood War had 12 unit control groups is unnecessarily limiting. It is better to have separate control groups for different units and groups. You can still do that in SC2. It's just that newer players, who don't necessarily have the training to 1a2a3a can just 1a instead. If you 1a2a3a, perhaps you can beat them as you will have more efficient micro. That's the skill factor. The mechanical training for 1a2a3a is again unintuitive, and something you can learn to get better, but not something you should be forced to do. Again, perhaps imagine a system where you could use a lot more keys as control groups but you could only have 2 units per control group. 1a2a3a4aQaWaEaRa is not a very interesting use of your time. It could be useful situationally, and if you were sufficiently skilled, you would recognize those situations and beat players who were unable to do the same. However, it is hardly interesting to force you to do it all the time. Again, please recognize that an easier game is not automatically inferior.
BNet 2 is inferior to the original. I dunno. Give it time I guess.
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On October 24 2010 16:28 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2010 15:16 iPlaY.NettleS wrote:On October 24 2010 14:21 kaisr wrote:
lol yeh. Was C- in BW, played sc2 for one week, tried to play one game of BW: ridiculous fail split, didn't build first probe, wondered why hotkeys were so far away, felt sad I couldn't MBS lost shortly after. so you got up to c- , played sc2 for a week then completely forgot how to play brood war. Don't start riding motorbikes or you might forget how to drive cars.... You are retarded rofl do you know how weird it is to switch back like that? The hotkeys are all different and it fucks with your muscle memory a lot. .
oh ok
just use the old style hotkeys in sc2 then??
B P for build pylon makes a heck of a lot more sense than B E (where in pylon is an E?)
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Sweden2683 Posts
On October 24 2010 13:59 arb wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2010 13:51 Hikko wrote:
I do miss some aspects of Brood War.
I don't miss the Dragoon AI
I don't miss the sheer amount of units that were just useless/overly situational
I don't miss Scarab AI
I don't miss the UI that didn't register your actions when you went too fast
I don't miss 12-unit control groups
I don't miss the manual worker placement to minerals
I don't miss memorizing intricate setups in order to make ling-proof wall offs in every position on every map
I don't miss the crummy worker AI
I don't miss iCCup smurfs
I don't miss all the drop hackers
I don't miss all the map hackers
I don't miss crappy old Battle.Net
After seeing the GSL finals and now the Boxer vs FruitDealer showmatch, I know for a fact that Starcraft 2 can surpass every single epic game of Brood War, even on the current map pool. besides the bottom 4, you miss things that required skill ? aka shit thats automated and easy to do now(workers ai and easy to build walls)
Micro dat scarab.
Doing monotonous tasks fast = good games eh?
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BW nostalgia
i dont like how tightly unit groups can be made... miss reavers too u_u
oh well
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On October 24 2010 20:10 Ecrilon wrote:
There is really a distinction between skill and pure mechanical training.
Macro-cycles + sending workers to mine stress not only the player's timing but also their multitasking and ability to prioritize actions. You could argue likewise for the repeal of the "Supply" mechanic, because building pylons/depots/overlords on time is just pure mechanical training. No decent player should become supply blocked, or leave a worker idling, or miss their production timing if that's all they have to do... the challenge is to maintain your macro while controlling your military.
It's a challenge of attention prioritization, which is fundamental to RTS.
I've played enough SC2 (~400 games) to think MBS is lame as hell. (Ditto for shared unit control in team games. Unlimited group select is fine; the problem is that units clump and respond slowly, not that control groups are big.) But the worst by far is the damn Macro AI that tracks which structure will be free first to build the next unit FOR YOU. Why not just have an "Autocast Marine" button while you're at it...
On October 24 2010 20:53 Catch]22 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2010 13:59 arb wrote:On October 24 2010 13:51 Hikko wrote:
I do miss some aspects of Brood War.
I don't miss the Dragoon AI
I don't miss the sheer amount of units that were just useless/overly situational
I don't miss Scarab AI
I don't miss the UI that didn't register your actions when you went too fast
I don't miss 12-unit control groups
I don't miss the manual worker placement to minerals
I don't miss memorizing intricate setups in order to make ling-proof wall offs in every position on every map
I don't miss the crummy worker AI
I don't miss iCCup smurfs
I don't miss all the drop hackers
I don't miss all the map hackers
I don't miss crappy old Battle.Net
After seeing the GSL finals and now the Boxer vs FruitDealer showmatch, I know for a fact that Starcraft 2 can surpass every single epic game of Brood War, even on the current map pool. besides the bottom 4, you miss things that required skill ? aka shit thats automated and easy to do now(workers ai and easy to build walls) Micro dat scarab.
If you don't know how to use Reavers, turn in your damn corsair icon. Scarabs perform badly when obstructed --> manually target your Reavers (also to optimize the splash damage) and keep your firing lanes clear. If Scarabs could skip over obstacles and always hit their target, they'd have to deal less damage, and Reavers would be another boring SC2 unit with little room for challenging to micro to enhance its function. (The Colossus.)
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With all the constraints of BW's archaic UI, doing awesome micro with mutalisks/vultures/mnm was actually pretty amazing, cause very few people can pull it off. In TvZ now with 2 keystrokes taking care of my macro I can micro 4 hellions like any Korean.. it's not near as impressive..
Fact: in BW I can micro my mutalisks like a 95% version of Jaedong, but when I'm done I have 3000 minerals. You don't think of this when watching the game but it's a huge part of why these moves are impressive.
That's my response to people bitching about BW's tedious UI system, makes me miss BW.. plus in SC2 you can't really mutalisk micro anyways
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On October 24 2010 21:04 rabidch wrote:BW nostalgia i dont like how tightly unit groups can be made... miss reavers too u_u oh well
Why would you miss it when it's still active and being played at a pro level and on iccup?
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konadora
Singapore66366 Posts
On October 24 2010 13:02 Loser777 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2010 12:59 konadora wrote:i agree, there's just something about SC2 that i can't reproduce from BW Do you mean that there's something about BW that you can't reproduce in SC2?
lol yes that's what i meant, got kinda confused there
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SC2 definantly lacks those powerful abilities that made the viewing experience so much more exciting. It also lacks personality, when something dies in SC2 its just another generic death sound, when dragoons got wtf raped by a siege tank line it was like "woaaaaah", or when hydras forgot to move from psi storm and the sound/blood effect they made on the ground.
Or when mutas/scourge caught sci vessels off guard: Epic death sound.
Same kind of scenario in SC2 is like: You barely see whats going on beacuse the units clump like crazy and flying units block the vision of ground units. So its hard to get excited about something you can barely see with your own eyes.
Psi storm just gently pokes at whatever army it lands on, its the 2nd or 3rd attempt that actually kills something.. :s
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EPT
