On October 10 2010 04:41 Wr3k wrote: Imo BW just needs to roll over and die anyways. It will never have the following it once did with SC2 out. If you are someone who is new to the esports scene you aren't going to be drooling over SCBW when there are things like IEM and GSL to watch. Let it die. It's good for SC2 that he is switching.
This is downright disrespectful to BW fans who dislike SC2.
The BW kids really need to calm down about this though. We get it, you only like BW and it's the only game ever worth playing. The "it's new so it sucks" mantra isn't doing BW players any favors.
This is at the point where BW fans get upset over losing players that haven't mattered to BW for years. Seriously, when was Boxer going to make his his big BW comeback? When was he going to develop that Flash/JD apm?
How long were people going to continue watching a game with graphics that were middle of the road in 1998 anyway?
Not particularly aimed at you but just annoying BW fanboys in general.
Have you ever heard about Psychological projection? You are doing it right now. You are acting like an annoying kid, doing your own mantra and missing the point entirely. The point is not about Boxer's career, it's about what his decision may be showing. Even if it's absolutely the best for him.
If you don't care about what keeps people interested about BW then don't post at all here. You are as ignorant and not constructive as one can get.
And I am saying this even though I am only playing SC2, I haven't played or at least logged in to BW BN for so long my accounts start to expire and I haven't seen live BW game in maybe a year now.
On October 10 2010 04:41 Wr3k wrote: Imo BW just needs to roll over and die anyways. It will never have the following it once did with SC2 out. If you are someone who is new to the esports scene you aren't going to be drooling over SCBW when there are things like IEM and GSL to watch. Let it die. It's good for SC2 that he is switching.
This is downright disrespectful to BW fans who dislike SC2.
The BW kids really need to calm down about this though. We get it, you only like BW and it's the only game ever worth playing. The "it's new so it sucks" mantra isn't doing BW players any favors.
This is at the point where BW fans get upset over losing players that haven't mattered to BW for years. Seriously, when was Boxer going to make his his big BW comeback? When was he going to develop that Flash/JD apm?
How long were people going to continue watching a game with graphics that were middle of the road in 1998 anyway?
Not particularly aimed at you but just annoying BW fanboys in general.
Have you ever heard about Psychological projection? You are doing it right now. You are acting like an annoying kid, doing your own mantra and missing the point entirely. The point is not about Boxer's career, it's about what his decision may be showing. Even if it's absolutely the best for him.
If you don't care about what keeps people interested about BW then don't post at all here. You are as ignorant and not constructive as one can get.
And I am saying this even though I am only playing SC2, I haven't played or at least logged in to BW BN for so long my accounts start to expire and I haven't seen live BW game in maybe a year now.
I'm not the one opposed to change. I'm not the person trying to keep a 12 year old game that is relevant only to Koreans and a few foreigners (all of which are pretty much on this site) as the figurehead of esports forever. You don't see the kind of attitude BW fanboys posses about SC2 in any other competitive game, competitive RTS games included.
SC2 gets an enormous amount of hate from BW fans because they feel threatened by it. BW stopped being important to anyone outside Korea a looooong time ago, just accept that. I get that watching "the scene" die might suck for you, but the rest of the world moved past BW in like 2006.
If Boxer benchwarming STK is what keeps BW fans happy, then there's something seriously wrong with BW fans.
The only things disappointing about Boxer were his last couple of Proleague games. They were terrible. I don't think Boxer will stand out in SC2, but it's better than having him sit around on the bench just for his celebrity status. OOV had a much greater strategic and coaching influence on SKT1/Fantasy. If BW is going to last, it should be able to do so on the charisma and refined play of the current generation. Good for Boxer.
Boxer actually playing and being the hero in SC2 that he was in the beginning of Brood War is soooo much better than bench warming for STK and performing as their Tossgirl. Except for the part where he plays even less than her.
Boxer playing is better than Boxer being just another coach, as well, at least to me.
On October 10 2010 04:41 Wr3k wrote: Imo BW just needs to roll over and die anyways. It will never have the following it once did with SC2 out. If you are someone who is new to the esports scene you aren't going to be drooling over SCBW when there are things like IEM and GSL to watch. Let it die. It's good for SC2 that he is switching.
are you fucking serious? its pretty obvious that sc2 benefits from boxer switching, while broodwar is worse off. a large part of sc2 is currently supported by foreigners, and foreigners imo are very fickle about the games they play. if broodwar "rolls over and dies" then i'm positive its spelling out the end of starcraft. you can just kiss goodbye to your IEM and GSL and whatever other crap there is out there, because war4 will come out, or people will just naturally gravitate away because they're immature and realized that they'll never beat the koreans. dont be so ignorant of whats going on.
I foresee, fantasy's play deteriorating? (probably does not hold true anymore though) and every other progamer and commentators feeling disheartened. Sigh, but anyways Boxer probably feels bad about leaving to attempt his last chance of being successful as a progamer.
On October 10 2010 01:53 luckySe7en wrote: SC2 is awesome.
User was warned for this and other low-content posts
haha. fail. But seriously, BoxeR moving to SC2 is a huge dissapointment to me. I hope he will still help SKT. Boy, wouldn't it be ironic if the same man popularized BW and destroyed BW.
It's great that Boxer has moved over to SC2. Boxer is known to be a great, if not the greatest innovator in e-sports. For a game that's been played for 12 years or so, and has most of the innovation potential squeezed out of it, Boxer can't shine at what he is known for. Going to SC2 allows him a much greater opportunity for innovating again.
This whole post (OP) starts with the presumption that BW is all which is good, and SC2 isn't & probably can't be. So what if it can? What if SC2 can be eventually developed to truly improve the gameplay we love, and advance RTS? Would you blame the Emperor for his sense and desire to take part in this development? Maybe SC2 isn't the enemy, maybe it's the friend who needs our help.
If indeed SC2 is bound to replace BW eventually, then we better start seriously develop it asap, because this will take a long time and a lot of effort. In view of this, Boxer is probably doing the starcraft community the best service, contributing to establish a new meaningful esports scene.
On October 10 2010 04:41 Wr3k wrote: Imo BW just needs to roll over and die anyways. It will never have the following it once did with SC2 out. If you are someone who is new to the esports scene you aren't going to be drooling over SCBW when there are things like IEM and GSL to watch. Let it die. It's good for SC2 that he is switching.
This is downright disrespectful to BW fans who dislike SC2.
The BW kids really need to calm down about this though. We get it, you only like BW and it's the only game ever worth playing. The "it's new so it sucks" mantra isn't doing BW players any favors.
This is at the point where BW fans get upset over losing players that haven't mattered to BW for years. Seriously, when was Boxer going to make his his big BW comeback? When was he going to develop that Flash/JD apm?
How long were people going to continue watching a game with graphics that were middle of the road in 1998 anyway?
Not particularly aimed at you but just annoying BW fanboys in general.
Have you ever heard about Psychological projection? You are doing it right now. You are acting like an annoying kid, doing your own mantra and missing the point entirely. The point is not about Boxer's career, it's about what his decision may be showing. Even if it's absolutely the best for him.
If you don't care about what keeps people interested about BW then don't post at all here. You are as ignorant and not constructive as one can get.
And I am saying this even though I am only playing SC2, I haven't played or at least logged in to BW BN for so long my accounts start to expire and I haven't seen live BW game in maybe a year now.
I'm not the one opposed to change. I'm not the person trying to keep a 12 year old game that is relevant only to Koreans and a few foreigners (all of which are pretty much on this site) as the figurehead of esports forever. You don't see the kind of attitude BW fanboys posses about SC2 in any other competitive game, competitive RTS games included.
SC2 gets an enormous amount of hate from BW fans because they feel threatened by it. BW stopped being important to anyone outside Korea a looooong time ago, just accept that. I get that watching "the scene" die might suck for you, but the rest of the world moved past BW in like 2006.
If Boxer benchwarming STK is what keeps BW fans happy, then there's something seriously wrong with BW fans.
I did say I'm laying off from here for few days/weeks with limited visits, but never thought that I was going to post here until I read this.
Do I really feel threatened by SC2 scene killing off BW? No. Why? Because it will happen someday one way or another. Until then, I'm going to enjoy BW instead of seeing some stupid ball vs ball action which can be solved by magic box, not through micro.
I don't think you get the point of Boxer = BW till this announcement. He was one of the primary reasons why BW got so famous in South Korea. He was one of the primary reasons why many people started playing BW in Korea, if they haven't already. He's been invited to the Blue House by the president of South Korea due to his status in BW.
Yet we didn't see him play that much after 2006.... or did we?
Boxer keeps playing for ACE, wins major matches against players (Boxer vs Savior on Monty Hall anyone?), and then returns to SKT 2 years later. After that we don't see him play as much. However, we know that he's been active as ever. Why? Fantasy vs Flash. Who came up with the timed proxy 2 fact vulture build that completely destroyed KT during SKT vs KT, ace match? Not iloveoov, not fantasy, but Boxer did. When Boxer returned in 2009, their team started doing much, much better. Coincidence? I think not.
I don't care if he sucks ass in BW. I think most people can agree (the ones who know Boxer's era and his 'empire') that this is huge loss to BW. When it came down to play style few years ago, Boxer's plays were very innovative, creative, and mind-shocking to many viewers. When it came down to team's psychological welfare, Boxer was in the center. He was not the coach of SKT (nor even assistant coach), yet in practical terms, he was.
You don't know what he has done for BW, only heard stories about it. And you're trying to compare the BW fans to some idiots who's trying to keep the old tradition alive? Is this fucking fomos or something? BW fans have something to say about the situation, and so does the SC2 fans. You're one of those few 'special' people where you cross the border to start some stupid argument which leads to nowhere, maybe except putting more distance between BW fans and SC2 fans.
I'm a BW fan. Does it mean that I hate SC2? Hell no. There are things that I do not like from the game (compared to BW), which ties me to BW more than SC2, but that doesn't necessarily mean that SC2 sucks ass. You, on the other hand, cannot live on with BW existing with SC2. You want to kill a scene that has been huge in the past only because it's 'old' and 'outdated'. You are one of the sources of pain in e-Sports scene these days: BW fans arguing that SC2 sucks dick, and vice versa. You guys cannot have both games co-existing at the same time.
You're one of the few people in teamliquid who's turning teamliquid boards into fomos boards. And trust me. Fomos is a LOT more like 4chan.
And you're trying to argue this while spelling SKT wrong?
On October 10 2010 09:35 figq wrote: This whole post (OP) starts with the presumption that BW is all which is good, and SC2 isn't & probably can't be. So what if it can? What if SC2 can be eventually developed to truly improve the gameplay we love, and advance RTS? Would you blame the Emperor for his sense and desire to take part in this development? Maybe SC2 isn't the enemy, maybe it's the friend who needs our help.
If indeed SC2 is bound to replace BW eventually, then we better start seriously develop it asap, because this will take a long time and a lot of effort. In view of this, Boxer is probably doing the starcraft community the best service, contributing to establish a new meaningful esports scene.
Boxer moving on indeed makes it sad, and same goes to most BW fans at this time.
Yet, it also means that we will see his innovative style of playing in SC2, and bring innovations to the builds and tricks.
Although I didn't want to see him move on, Boxer did the right thing. He's willing to contribute more to the fans so that we can enjoy more matches, while competing on the highest level at the same time.
On October 10 2010 04:41 Wr3k wrote: Imo BW just needs to roll over and die anyways. It will never have the following it once did with SC2 out. If you are someone who is new to the esports scene you aren't going to be drooling over SCBW when there are things like IEM and GSL to watch. Let it die. It's good for SC2 that he is switching.
This is downright disrespectful to BW fans who dislike SC2.
The BW kids really need to calm down about this though. We get it, you only like BW and it's the only game ever worth playing. The "it's new so it sucks" mantra isn't doing BW players any favors.
This is at the point where BW fans get upset over losing players that haven't mattered to BW for years. Seriously, when was Boxer going to make his his big BW comeback? When was he going to develop that Flash/JD apm?
How long were people going to continue watching a game with graphics that were middle of the road in 1998 anyway?
Not particularly aimed at you but just annoying BW fanboys in general.
Have you ever heard about Psychological projection? You are doing it right now. You are acting like an annoying kid, doing your own mantra and missing the point entirely. The point is not about Boxer's career, it's about what his decision may be showing. Even if it's absolutely the best for him.
If you don't care about what keeps people interested about BW then don't post at all here. You are as ignorant and not constructive as one can get.
And I am saying this even though I am only playing SC2, I haven't played or at least logged in to BW BN for so long my accounts start to expire and I haven't seen live BW game in maybe a year now.
I'm not the one opposed to change. I'm not the person trying to keep a 12 year old game that is relevant only to Koreans and a few foreigners (all of which are pretty much on this site) as the figurehead of esports forever. You don't see the kind of attitude BW fanboys posses about SC2 in any other competitive game, competitive RTS games included.
SC2 gets an enormous amount of hate from BW fans because they feel threatened by it. BW stopped being important to anyone outside Korea a looooong time ago, just accept that. I get that watching "the scene" die might suck for you, but the rest of the world moved past BW in like 2006.
If Boxer benchwarming STK is what keeps BW fans happy, then there's something seriously wrong with BW fans.
If making such wild generalizations based on a single opinion is what keeps SC2 fans happy, then there's something seriously wrong with SC2 fans
On October 10 2010 04:41 Wr3k wrote: Imo BW just needs to roll over and die anyways. It will never have the following it once did with SC2 out. If you are someone who is new to the esports scene you aren't going to be drooling over SCBW when there are things like IEM and GSL to watch. Let it die. It's good for SC2 that he is switching.
This is downright disrespectful to BW fans who dislike SC2.
The BW kids really need to calm down about this though. We get it, you only like BW and it's the only game ever worth playing. The "it's new so it sucks" mantra isn't doing BW players any favors.
This is at the point where BW fans get upset over losing players that haven't mattered to BW for years. Seriously, when was Boxer going to make his his big BW comeback? When was he going to develop that Flash/JD apm?
How long were people going to continue watching a game with graphics that were middle of the road in 1998 anyway?
Not particularly aimed at you but just annoying BW fanboys in general.
Have you ever heard about Psychological projection? You are doing it right now. You are acting like an annoying kid, doing your own mantra and missing the point entirely. The point is not about Boxer's career, it's about what his decision may be showing. Even if it's absolutely the best for him.
If you don't care about what keeps people interested about BW then don't post at all here. You are as ignorant and not constructive as one can get.
And I am saying this even though I am only playing SC2, I haven't played or at least logged in to BW BN for so long my accounts start to expire and I haven't seen live BW game in maybe a year now.
I'm not the one opposed to change. I'm not the person trying to keep a 12 year old game that is relevant only to Koreans and a few foreigners (all of which are pretty much on this site) as the figurehead of esports forever. You don't see the kind of attitude BW fanboys posses about SC2 in any other competitive game, competitive RTS games included.
SC2 gets an enormous amount of hate from BW fans because they feel threatened by it. BW stopped being important to anyone outside Korea a looooong time ago, just accept that. I get that watching "the scene" die might suck for you, but the rest of the world moved past BW in like 2006.
If Boxer benchwarming STK is what keeps BW fans happy, then there's something seriously wrong with BW fans.
I did say I'm laying off from here for few days/weeks with limited visits, but never thought that I was going to post here until I read this.
Do I really feel threatened by SC2 scene killing off BW? No. Why? Because it will happen someday one way or another. Until then, I'm going to enjoy BW instead of seeing some stupid ball vs ball action which can be solved by magic box, not through micro.
I don't think you get the point of Boxer = BW till this announcement. He was one of the primary reasons why BW got so famous in South Korea. He was one of the primary reasons why many people started playing BW in Korea, if they haven't already. He's been invited to the Blue House by the president of South Korea due to his status in BW.
Yet we didn't see him play that much after 2006.... or did we?
Boxer keeps playing for ACE, wins major matches against players (Boxer vs Savior on Monty Hall anyone?), and then returns to SKT 2 years later. After that we don't see him play as much. However, we know that he's been active as ever. Why? Fantasy vs Flash. Who came up with the timed proxy 2 fact vulture build that completely destroyed KT during SKT vs KT, ace match? Not iloveoov, not fantasy, but Boxer did. When Boxer returned in 2009, their team started doing much, much better. Coincidence? I think not.
I don't care if he sucks ass in BW. I think most people can agree (the ones who know Boxer's era and his 'empire') that this is huge loss to BW. When it came down to play style few years ago, Boxer's plays were very innovative, creative, and mind-shocking to many viewers. When it came down to team's psychological welfare, Boxer was in the center. He was not the coach of SKT (nor even assistant coach), yet in practical terms, he was.
You don't know what he has done for BW, only heard stories about it. And you're trying to compare the BW fans to some idiots who's trying to keep the old tradition alive? Is this fucking fomos or something? BW fans have something to say about the situation, and so does the SC2 fans. You're one of those few 'special' people where you cross the border to start some stupid argument which leads to nowhere, maybe except putting more distance between BW fans and SC2 fans.
I'm a BW fan. Does it mean that I hate SC2? Hell no. There are things that I do not like from the game (compared to BW), which ties me to BW more than SC2, but that doesn't necessarily mean that SC2 sucks ass. You, on the other hand, cannot live on with BW existing with SC2. You want to kill a scene that has been huge in the past only because it's 'old' and 'outdated'. You are one of the sources of pain in e-Sports scene these days: BW fans arguing that SC2 sucks dick, and vice versa. You guys cannot have both games co-existing at the same time.
You're one of the few people in teamliquid who's turning teamliquid boards into fomos boards. And trust me. Fomos is a LOT more like 4chan.
And you're trying to argue this while spelling SKT wrong?
On October 10 2010 09:35 figq wrote: This whole post (OP) starts with the presumption that BW is all which is good, and SC2 isn't & probably can't be. So what if it can? What if SC2 can be eventually developed to truly improve the gameplay we love, and advance RTS? Would you blame the Emperor for his sense and desire to take part in this development? Maybe SC2 isn't the enemy, maybe it's the friend who needs our help.
If indeed SC2 is bound to replace BW eventually, then we better start seriously develop it asap, because this will take a long time and a lot of effort. In view of this, Boxer is probably doing the starcraft community the best service, contributing to establish a new meaningful esports scene.
Boxer moving on indeed makes it sad, and same goes to most BW fans at this time.
Yet, it also means that we will see his innovative style of playing in SC2, and bring innovations to the builds and tricks.
Although I didn't want to see him move on, Boxer did the right thing. He's willing to contribute more to the fans so that we can enjoy more matches, while competing on the highest level at the same time.
This is such a great post.
It's true, this may be a symbol to some that BW is handing the torch over to SC2, but I do dearly hope that the spark that made BW get on fire burn just as bright as before. Progamers will come, Progamers will go, and its true that Boxer is more than just a Progamer, or even a bonjwa. To many people, he IS E-Sports. I know when I first found out about Boxer was through "Pimpest Plays" on sc legacy, and just staring in awe at the things he would do. But I truly hope with all my heart that this does not mean the end for Broodwar. I came to teamliquid, and I came to the BW proleague because of Starcraft 2. Yet I love them both. I love watching BW and watching and playing Starcraft 2. I admire BW as a much more complex game(as of now, at least) and one that is spectacular to watch. I admire BW for its history, the game itself, the intricate balance that has stayed strong for so many years.
But the true test of BW will be whether it can live on. It's already years past what Blizzard intended it to be played for, yet until now new things are constantly being found. Will it stagnate? Will all progamers begin to move over? I for one do not blame Boxer. While he does help with new strats, I feel for him feeling somewhat useless and as he says "dissapointing his fans." I hope he can become confident and just as much as a force in SC2 as he was in BW.
Only bothering to respond to the parts of the post that aren't ad hominem or some other logical fallacy. Hope you don't mind.
On October 10 2010 09:53 supernovamaniac wrote: I don't think you get the point of Boxer = BW till this announcement. He was one of the primary reasons why BW got so famous in South Korea. He was one of the primary reasons why many people started playing BW in Korea,
Boxer's a big name in BW, we all get that. Back when BW was relevant, it used to be great fun watching him dominate. But nowadays, he's just a once great player who lacks the mechanical skill to get past BW's admittedly horrible interface.
He isn't innovating anything in BW. The whole reason he's famous was his innovation, unique plays, complete dominance over the scene. All those things are gone, modern BW is watching Flash/JD's inhuman apm execute shit perfectly. Fun to watch a few times, nothing worth following long term.
On October 10 2010 10:25 Offhand wrote: Only bothering to respond to the parts of the post that aren't ad hominem or some other logical fallacy. Hope you don't mind.
Better than trying to point out the obvious yet again... wait a moment...
On October 10 2010 09:53 supernovamaniac wrote: I don't think you get the point of Boxer = BW till this announcement. He was one of the primary reasons why BW got so famous in South Korea. He was one of the primary reasons why many people started playing BW in Korea,
Boxer's a big name in BW, we all get that. Back when BW was relevant, it used to be great fun watching him dominate. But nowadays, he's just a once great player who lacks the mechanical skill to get past BW's admittedly horrible interface.
He isn't innovating anything in BW. The whole reason he's famous was his innovation, unique plays, complete dominance over the scene. All those things are gone, modern BW is watching Flash/JD's inhuman apm execute shit perfectly. Fun to watch a few times, nothing worth following long term.
I can't stop laughing at this post for 2 reasons:
1. You still have your facts wrong when I clearly stated out Fantasy vs Flash on Match Point (if you even know who they are, or what the map is... or what 2 fact vulture vs 14cc means)
2. You still try to 'kill' BW in this post
Maybe if you have read my previous post, you could've stopped making fool out of yourself and prevented 1 from happening. But no, you had to go for double or nothing.
If you want to argue more, take it to PM. I don't need more people turning teamliquid into english version of fomos.
On October 10 2010 04:41 Wr3k wrote: Imo BW just needs to roll over and die anyways. It will never have the following it once did with SC2 out. If you are someone who is new to the esports scene you aren't going to be drooling over SCBW when there are things like IEM and GSL to watch. Let it die. It's good for SC2 that he is switching.
Can't believe this guy hasn't gotten warned or banned.
There's no reason moderators would react to that kind of post. What's offensive about it? Mods here don't warn or ban just for candid expression of opinion (provided it's in the proper venue).
On October 10 2010 04:41 Wr3k wrote: Imo BW just needs to roll over and die anyways. It will never have the following it once did with SC2 out. If you are someone who is new to the esports scene you aren't going to be drooling over SCBW when there are things like IEM and GSL to watch. Let it die. It's good for SC2 that he is switching.
Can't believe this guy hasn't gotten warned or banned.
There's no reason moderators would react to that kind of post. What's offensive about it? Mods here don't warn or ban just for candid expression of opinion (provided it's in the proper venue).
well it is blatantly inflammatory. i thought people got warned for that? not really sure on this criteria.
On October 10 2010 10:25 Offhand wrote: Only bothering to respond to the parts of the post that aren't ad hominem or some other logical fallacy. Hope you don't mind.
On October 10 2010 09:53 supernovamaniac wrote: I don't think you get the point of Boxer = BW till this announcement. He was one of the primary reasons why BW got so famous in South Korea. He was one of the primary reasons why many people started playing BW in Korea,
Boxer's a big name in BW, we all get that. Back when BW was relevant, it used to be great fun watching him dominate. But nowadays, he's just a once great player who lacks the mechanical skill to get past BW's admittedly horrible interface.
He isn't innovating anything in BW. The whole reason he's famous was his innovation, unique plays, complete dominance over the scene. All those things are gone, modern BW is watching Flash/JD's inhuman apm execute shit perfectly. Fun to watch a few times, nothing worth following long term.
I can't stop laughing at this post for 2 reasons:
1. You still have your facts wrong when I clearly stated out Fantasy vs Flash on Match Point (if you even know who they are, or what the map is... or what 2 fact vulture vs 14cc means)
2. You still try to 'kill' BW in this post
Maybe if you have read my previous post, you could've stopped making fool out of yourself and prevented 1 from happening. But no, you had to go for double or nothing.
If you want to argue more, take it to PM. I don't need more people turning teamliquid into english version of fomos.
I see no use in arguing with a wall.
Someone, anyone, tell me why Boxer remaining in the BW scene is going to do anything.
EPT
