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radar14
Profile Blog Joined December 2002
United States1437 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-10-06 17:53:12
October 06 2010 16:43 GMT
#1
Are there any Bogleheads here? I figure there is a sizable population here that are working and managing finances, but I've never seen a thread here that dealt with investing for the average person. By average, I don't necessarily mean "of average intelligence." I just mean a person with an average amount of time and energy to devote to their financial management. I am not an expert by any means; even having to make that clear puts a sheepish smile on my face. I just want to encourage some discussion on the topic because too many people don't think about retirement until it's too late. Dissent is welcome.

A lot of the Boglehead investing philosophy is intuitive and common sense. Plenty of people are already investing this way without having put a name to it. All of this information is taken and regurgitated, without much shame, from various books and online sources, especially the Boglehead’s Guide to Investing and the Boglehead wiki.

The Basics of Creating Wealth

In the immortal words of Nate Dogg, hold up. First off, what is wealth? Wealth is your net worth. It is NOT your net income. A partner in a big law firm could be raking in $1 million a year. If he spends $1 million a year, then his net worth is theoretically zero. A teacher who makes $40k a year but puts away 20% of every paycheck (we will get to where to put it later), he will be accumulating true wealth. It’s not how much you make, it’s how much you keep and where you put the money you keep. To calculate your net worth, add up the dollar value of everything you own. This includes your bank accounts, stocks, bonds, mutual funds, retirement plans, valuables, cars, home, etc. Then add up how much you owe, including mortgage and credit/car/educational/business/etc loans. Subtract what you owe from what you own. If you were to retire today, that is the number you’re working with to keep you from dying poor.

Now that we got that out of the way…

  1. Eliminate credit card and other high-interest debt. You will never get a guaranteed return on your investment that will exceed credit card interest rates. Paying your debt off is risk-free and tax-free. Just having any significant credit card debt in the first place is an indication that you are living with a paycheck-to-paycheck mentality. You cannot accumulate wealth if you live this way. But you can start to pay it off NOW.

  2. Live wisely. There is a certain competitive fire in most of us to have the biggest house we can buy or the nicest car we can afford. After all, we worked hard for the money. Why can’t we enjoy using all of it? This mentality is something you have to fight. Save in any way you can. Getting a big house you cannot really afford will cripple you financially. Buying new cars can be a huge money sink. Everyone knows that a new car depreciates faster than a porn star. Consider getting a 2-3 year-old car and keeping it for a long time. If you absolute must get a new car, at least try to make it practical and gas-efficient. Always consider cheaper alternatives to what you’re buying.

  3. Establish an emergency fund. This should be in a liquid, readily available money source, such as a bank savings account or money market account. It is to respond to accidents, disasters, and other unforeseen events. Conventional wisdom is that 3-6 months worth of your income is adequate to put aside.

  4. Save early and often. Pay yourself first. Start now. Before paying your bills or taxes, take out at least 20% of your income to invest in your future financial independence. Why do you need to start now? “The magic is in the compounding.” Time is on your side when you are young. A dollar you invest today will be worth much more than that by the time you retire. To illustrate: Suppose you invest a one-time sum of money at an 8% annual rate of return. How much money would you need to invest at various ages to have $1 million by age 65? If you start at age 25, you need to invest around $46000. If you start at age 55, you’ll need to invest around $460000, or ten times more. And we’re talking about a one-time investment. If you invest consistently, the results will be compounded even further.

  5. Allocate assets according to your age and risk aversion. A basic portfolio will contain stocks and bonds. Stocks offer a higher return but with significantly higher volatility. This is something anyone should know after the past couple of years. Poker players will understand the concept well. Bonds offer a lower return but more stability. To achieve good returns while minimizing risks, you diversify your portfolio in include both classes of assets. The simple Boglehead formula to calculate how much of your investments to put in each: You should own your age in bonds. If you are 25 years old, you should put around 25% of your investment in bonds, and 75% in stocks. The idea is that when you are young, time is in your favor and you have a long time to realize the higher rate of return on stocks. You also have the advantage of human capital. Your income-earning years are in front of you. When you are 55 and close to retiring, you will want more security and thus around 55% bonds. This is just a general starting point. If you are young but have never lived through a prolonged bear market, you may want to allocate a higher percentage to bonds.

  6. Use low-cost index funds for the stock portion of your portfolio. Index funds follow entire markets, like the S&P 500 or the Wilshire 5000. They instantly diversify your portfolio and massively reduce the risk from owning stocks in only a few companies. They also outperform 60 to 80% of actively managed mutual funds (where an expert picks a lot of stocks for you to own). Actively managed funds have fund managers that will deduct 1-2% of your balance to pay themselves and for expenses. Passively managed funds have expense ratios between 0.2 to 0.5%. Remember the power of compounding. That difference can become quite sizable after applying decades of exponential math. And once again, the majority of fund managers do not beat the market. Passively-managed index funds incur no sales commissions, have very minimal operating expenses, and are easy to track. Vanguard (company founded by John Bogle, hero of the Bogleheads) and several other companies offers very low-cost index funds.
    I’m pretty much going to just copy a few quotes from the Boglehead’s Guide to illustrate what some big names in finance think about index funds:

    Frank Armstrong, author of The Informed Investor: “Do the right thing: In every asset class where they are available, index!—Four of five funds will fail to meet or beat an appropriate index.”

    William Bernstein, Ph.D., M.D., author of The Four Pillars of Investing,frequent guest columnist for Morningstar and often quoted inThe Wall Street Journal: “An index fund dooms you to mediocrity? Absolutely not: It virtually guarantees you superior performance.

    Warren Buffett, chairman of Berkshire Hathaway and investor of legendary repute: “Most investors, both institutional and individual, will find that the best way to own common stocks is through an index fund that charges minimal fees. Those following this path are sure to beat the net results (after fees and expenses) delivered by the great majority of investment professionals.”

    Jonathan Clements, author and writer of the popular Wall Street Journal column “Getting Going”: “I am a huge, huge, huge fan of index funds. They are the investor’s best friend and Wall Street’s worst nightmare.”

    Arthur Levitt, former chairman of the Securities Exchange Commission and author of Take on the Street: “The fund industry’s dirty little secret: Most actively managed funds never do as well as their benchmark.”

    Paul Samuelson, first American to win the Nobel Prize in Economic Science: “The most efficient way to diversify a stock portfolio is with a low fee index fund. Statistically, a broadly based stock index fund will outperform most actively managed equity portfolios.”

    Charles Schwab, founder and chairman of the board of The Charles Schwab Corporation: “Only about one out of every four equity funds outperforms the stock market. That’s why I’m a firm believer in the power of indexing.”

  7. Keeping it simple is perfectly fine. Some specifics. Most Bogleheads prefer the Vanguard Total US stock market index fund to form the core of their portfolio. A good number like to diversify their stocks between domestic and international markets. A common allocation for stocks is 70% domestic and 30% international, using the Total Market index and the Total International index. This simple formula will be all most people need. More experienced Bogleheads like to separate out the markets for more control over certain classes of stocks. You might want to consider that when your portfolio grows large enough to meet the fund minimums for those classes. For bonds, there is a Total Bond Market index fund also. Bogleheads generally use this or short-term, high quality bonds. Bottom line: With just two stock funds and one bond fund in your portfolio, you will outperform the majority of investors.

  8. Be tax-efficient. Take full advantage of tax-advantaged accounts like IRAs and 401(k)s. These allow your money to grow without giving up a portion every year to taxes. Max these out whenever possible, especially if your employer provides some sort of match for the 401(k). That’s free money! If your income is too high to put all of your portfolio in these accounts, then you want to put the tax-inefficient parts of your portfolio in the tax-advantaged accounts. For the average investor, bonds are inefficient because they produce interest every year that is taxed. Index funds are tax-efficient because they produce low dividends and capital gains. So if you have to split up the portfolio, put as much of the bond portion into the IRAs and 401(k)s.

  9. Stay the course. Investing is all about the long term. What happens tomorrow, next month, or even over the next few years is inconsequential compared to the total time during which you will be investing. In the long run, stocks and bonds make money, and at a very decent rate. Saying this and actually living through it is obviously very different, but young investors should be jumping at the opportunity to invest even more during a bear market because of dollar-cost averaging.

    To quote the Boglehead wiki: “Bogleheads do our best not to be distracted, and not to waiver. We create an asset allocation with a large ownership of bonds in order to reduce the volatility of our portfolios and help us stay the course. Once you set up a Bogleheads portfolio, the only real course correction needed is to rebalance once per year (on your birthday, if you want), to bring your stock/bond allocations back to your pre-set levels. (You generally want to increase your bond holdings slightly every year, such as by setting your percentage of bonds to your age.) Although making only that one change every year takes discipline, it is also an enormous relief to be able to tune out the endless chatter of when and what to buy and sell.”



That’s the Boglehead philosophy in a nutshell. Who’s with me?


*****
impatience is a virtue
exeexe
Profile Blog Joined January 2010
Denmark937 Posts
October 06 2010 17:00 GMT
#2
Commit suicide by the age of 60* - retirement thoughts fixed,
I can live a life 20 percent better while i live, while i am capable of living
I dont have to suffer living with a body that cant do shit
I dont have to take medicine for the last 30 years of my life to cope with the pains
independency, freedom and liberty, you dont find that if you search among old people
I wont put any unnesesary strain on the ressources of the earth
The possibility to do one last blow against those you dont like


*or go deep into the jungle and see where that leaves me



User was temp banned for this post.
And never forget, its always easier to throw a bomb downstairs than up. - George Orwell
MightyAtom
Profile Blog Joined June 2004
Korea (South)1897 Posts
October 06 2010 17:15 GMT
#3
nice posting,
i don't invest at all, unless it is in an actual business, just my thing,
but i'm sure this will be a very helpful post to a lot of people looking into it.
Administrator-I am the universe- Morihei Ueshiba
Saleen00925
Profile Joined June 2010
United States8 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-10-06 17:20:54
October 06 2010 17:19 GMT
#4
Definitely a bogglehead here! Vanguard FTW!!!!!!! I use the target 2040 index retirement fund. Does the stock/bond balancing and changes for me. Low expense ratios are also FTW!

ShaperofDreams
Profile Blog Joined December 2008
Canada2492 Posts
October 06 2010 17:25 GMT
#5
bleh. I'm not much of an investor. I'd rather just live my life. I'm naturally careful with my money and I don't buy stupid shit.

I'm not worried about retirement, I'm gonna be a writer so there's no such thing. I'm so financially screwed that I'm not concerned about investing money that I will probably never have (parents are debt-people that have no clue about money, i have student loans plus I might need to spend 50k to become a commercial pilot).
Bitches don't know about my overlord. FUCK OFF ALDARIS I HAVE ENOUGH PYLONS. My Balls are as smooth as Eggs.
polgas
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Canada1762 Posts
October 06 2010 17:34 GMT
#6
“That’s a little bit like these rules I have. The first rule is don’t lose, and the second rule is never forget the first rule. It isn’t so much having a lot of brilliant decisions, it’s just not having some terrible ones.” - Warren Buffett

I wish Warren Buffett could manage my money. Then I don't have to think.
Leee Jaee Doong
Never.Die
Profile Joined March 2010
Japan189 Posts
October 06 2010 17:36 GMT
#7
Worst advice you can ever give to these people OP. Investing in real estate for passive income is the best choice to attain wealth, and in a shorter time frame. But no one listens~
CheeC[h]
Profile Joined August 2009
United States137 Posts
October 06 2010 17:50 GMT
#8
On October 07 2010 02:36 Never.Die wrote:
Worst advice you can ever give to these people OP. Investing in real estate for passive income is the best choice to attain wealth, and in a shorter time frame. But no one listens~


couldn't be more wrong.
Nokarot
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States1410 Posts
October 06 2010 17:51 GMT
#9
The most success I've heard in regards to investments come from both the stock market and CDs (in regards to banking, not music)
beep beep boop
Sabu113
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
United States11068 Posts
October 06 2010 17:56 GMT
#10
... Real Estate values aren't a way to get rich, unless you want to speculate and hope you hit the bubble, because... on average they don't gain much value.

A note on the index funds: In nudge, Thaler and Sunstein find that funds with the lowests costs brought the greatest overall returns to investors. This was based of data from the privatized "social security" system in a Scandanavian state.

Cute fact: The net return on stocks for the past 10 years is 0 or slightly negative. The past 10 years though haven't been all that "normal" though so just look at the standard example of buying stocks at teh great depression and invest in something with returns rather than wasting your time (if you're young) with low yield bonds.
Biomine is a drunken chick who is on industrial strength amphetamines and would just grab your dick and jerk it as hard and violently as she could while screaming 'OMG FUCK ME', because she saw it in a Sasha Grey video ...-Wombat_Ni
KurtistheTurtle
Profile Blog Joined December 2008
United States1966 Posts
October 06 2010 17:59 GMT
#11
On October 07 2010 02:36 Never.Die wrote:
Worst advice you can ever give to these people OP. Investing in real estate for passive income is the best choice to attain wealth, and in a shorter time frame. But no one listens~

>.>

worst advice you can ever give to these people. real-estate CAN do that, but you have to be on a whole different level to get it
“Reject your sense of injury and the injury itself disappears."
Empyrean
Profile Blog Joined September 2004
17008 Posts
October 06 2010 18:22 GMT
#12
On October 07 2010 02:36 Never.Die wrote:
Worst advice you can ever give to these people OP. Investing in real estate for passive income is the best choice to attain wealth, and in a shorter time frame. But no one listens~


This is so wrong I don't even know where to begin.

Investing in real estate is capital-intensive, cash flow dependent, and in comparison to other forms of investment, very limited in liquidity. Investing in real estate also carries an innately greater amount of transactional risk, especially since there is no well-defined set of criteria with which to appraise value.

Furthermore, to even begin investing in real estate with any sort of competence, you need to be familiar with all sorts of Byzantine regulations regarding acquisitions, contingencies, as well as concepts such as leverage and equity. Not only that, but real estate investing also requires you to be familiar with legal concepts such as titles, ownership, adverse possession, etc.

The OP is looking for ways for the average person to make money investing. The only way to do that is simply to maximize the time value of money by investing early and taking advantage of tax-advantaged accounts (e.g. Roth IRAs, in which there are no capital gains taxes, provided you follow all requirements), and investing in safe, simple instruments such as popular index funds (and I suppose bonds, although I'd still prefer index funds to bonds - especially if you're young).

Even if you did have the technical knowledge and monetary capacity to invest in real estate, it's still much riskier. I'd even go as far as calling it speculation :/
Moderator
Never.Die
Profile Joined March 2010
Japan189 Posts
October 06 2010 20:08 GMT
#13
On October 07 2010 02:56 Sabu113 wrote:
... Real Estate values aren't a way to get rich, unless you want to speculate and hope you hit the bubble, because... on average they don't gain much value.

A note on the index funds: In nudge, Thaler and Sunstein find that funds with the lowests costs brought the greatest overall returns to investors. This was based of data from the privatized "social security" system in a Scandanavian state.

Cute fact: The net return on stocks for the past 10 years is 0 or slightly negative. The past 10 years though haven't been all that "normal" though so just look at the standard example of buying stocks at teh great depression and invest in something with returns rather than wasting your time (if you're young) with low yield bonds.


You and most of the population always associate investing in real estate just for capital gains. Secondly, there's more tax loops in investing in real estate than any other form of investing vehicle in America. But this is why the poor stay poor, they never listen~
Never.Die
Profile Joined March 2010
Japan189 Posts
October 06 2010 20:09 GMT
#14
On October 07 2010 02:56 Sabu113 wrote:
... Real Estate values aren't a way to get rich, unless you want to speculate and hope you hit the bubble, because... on average they don't gain much value.

A note on the index funds: In nudge, Thaler and Sunstein find that funds with the lowests costs brought the greatest overall returns to investors. This was based of data from the privatized "social security" system in a Scandanavian state.

Cute fact: The net return on stocks for the past 10 years is 0 or slightly negative. The past 10 years though haven't been all that "normal" though so just look at the standard example of buying stocks at teh great depression and invest in something with returns rather than wasting your time (if you're young) with low yield bonds.


With real estate you can leverage your money unlike like stocks or bonds. Use your brain sir.

User was temp banned for this post.
BroOd
Profile Blog Joined April 2003
Austin10831 Posts
October 06 2010 20:10 GMT
#15
Never.Die how do we know your advice is worthwhile? What sort of credentials do you have?
ModeratorSIRL and JLIG.
floor exercise
Profile Blog Joined August 2008
Canada5847 Posts
October 06 2010 20:21 GMT
#16
On October 07 2010 05:09 Never.Die wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 07 2010 02:56 Sabu113 wrote:
... Real Estate values aren't a way to get rich, unless you want to speculate and hope you hit the bubble, because... on average they don't gain much value.

A note on the index funds: In nudge, Thaler and Sunstein find that funds with the lowests costs brought the greatest overall returns to investors. This was based of data from the privatized "social security" system in a Scandanavian state.

Cute fact: The net return on stocks for the past 10 years is 0 or slightly negative. The past 10 years though haven't been all that "normal" though so just look at the standard example of buying stocks at teh great depression and invest in something with returns rather than wasting your time (if you're young) with low yield bonds.


With real estate you can leverage your money unlike like stocks or bonds. Use your brain sir.

What do you think margin accounts are for.

If you have insight by all means share it, but from here it looks like you're just another moron who thinks he's droppin knowledge with 1 liners when you have absolutely no actual investment knowledge.
ClanOverdosed
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
691 Posts
October 06 2010 20:58 GMT
#17
Very interesting, I'm a Finance major myself, I hoping to get into investment
Overdosed--www.overdosed.net
Manifesto7
Profile Blog Joined November 2002
Osaka27154 Posts
October 06 2010 22:29 GMT
#18
Really great thread, thanks a lot. As someone in their early 30's who is just banking money and not doing anything with it, this is the kind of simple advice that is valuable.
ModeratorGodfather
fwaaahh
Profile Joined May 2010
26 Posts
October 06 2010 23:08 GMT
#19
Never.Die is not completely wrong guys... there's a book called Rich Dad Poor Dad by Kiyosaki, who also wrote other good Real Estate investing books, that shows how lucrative real estate investing actually is compared to other forms of investing.

The bottom line is consistent profits that can compound over the years, while saving tons of your income on tax shelters
mOnion
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
United States5657 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-10-06 23:41:16
October 06 2010 23:38 GMT
#20
On October 07 2010 08:08 fwaaahh wrote:
Never.Die is not completely wrong guys... there's a book called Rich Dad Poor Dad by Kiyosaki, who also wrote other good Real Estate investing books, that shows how lucrative real estate investing actually is compared to other forms of investing.

The bottom line is consistent profits that can compound over the years, while saving tons of your income on tax shelters


there's also a book on cooking by some author who also wrote other good Cooking books that shows how lucrative the flavor in fancier foods actually is compared to other forms of food.

its especially important in things like investing to understand the concept of "baby steps"

OP's information is great. signed - 4th year finance student

and i agree with like ~~~~~~~~~~75?? percent of what empyrean said. but I think i'm more headstrong that he is irl anyway so our personalities influence our opinions ^_^
☆★☆ 7486!!! Join the Ban mOnion Anti-Trolling Initiative! - Caller | "on a scale of machine to 10, how bad is that Zerg?" - LZgamer | you are the new tl.net bonjwa monion, congrats - Rekrul | "Cheeseburgers dynamite lilacs" - Chill
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