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Aotearoa39261 Posts
There's no better place to rant than blogs, so here is my rant about Broodlords.
![[image loading]](http://media.giantbomb.com/uploads/1/14434/1454889-broodlord_sc2_devgame1_super.jpg) Warning: Rage Inducing
I have never been a fan of Broodlords, I've always thought they were too powerful against Protoss. Since Protoss lack any effective form of anti-air against armoured units, Broodlords are particularly effective against Protoss. I played three games today which reaffirmed my hatred of this horrible unit:
http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/Plexa/sc2_reps/0341_Fate_Plexa_ZvP_St.sc2replay
This game is actually pretty interesting. It ends up being a Broodlord vs DT base trade, but I missed his gold and played like crap.
http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/Plexa/sc2_reps/0360_Plexa_jimdiddy_Pv.sc2replay
Game is fairly even, then Broodlords pop and GG
http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/Plexa/sc2_reps/0361_Plexa_jimdiddy_Pv.sc2replay
Same deal, except this game I feel I had a pretty big advantage - then Broodlords, and G_G
The last two games there are practice games, and seeing as I want to work on my late game, there's no sense in killing the Zerg midgame with a timing push. So the answer to these fuckers isn't "don't let him get them", that's a cop out.
The standard response is "blink stalkers and upgrades" from these forums, but really it should be blink stalker, storm and voidrays. Thus, if you see the Broodlords coming well in advance - and I mean, WELL in advance - then you can prepare accordingly (slap down two stargates, pump voids, spam blink stalkers). If you miss the transition, or see him switching too late, then you simply can't touch them.
Now I play a stalker/sentry/colossus style usually, so it's not like I don't have the stalkers lying around to attack them. But it's that when mixed with hydra, and in the hands of a good player, they become nearly immortal. Indeed, the hydra/broodlord combination (i.e. leftover hydra from midgame + broodlords, then make more hydra) is just soooooo powerful. Hydra own gateway units (in particular the stalker), Broodlords have .5 more range than a Colossus, and broodlings absorb a lot of the Colossus attacks (which really should be hitting the hydra  ). It's insane, and I have ZERO idea on how to beat it.
Every counter is so gas heavy, that it takes a significant amount of time to prepare for the combination. Theoretically, you would want storm, blink stalkers and voidrays - but the shear gas cost of all of that makes this combination something that works ONLY if you have time to prepare. Whereas BL/Hydra is a standard transition from the Zerg midgame. You also have to be ridiculously careful, because if you engage a Hydra/BL army without Void Rays - unless you're wayyy ahead - you're going to lose the battle and the game. It's impossible to macro back an army that will defeat a BL army.
I get that P>Z something terrible, but that's no excuse for such an over powered unit to exist
//Rant
EDIT: I also realise that
- To win game 1 I just needed to play better (lots of dumb istakes)
- To win games 2/3 I needed to conserve my army and wait for the right unit composition to engage the BL mass
So yes, I know that there are indirect counters to BLs, but I just wish there was an easier way
 
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As a zerg player I must say I love Broodlords  Yes broodlords are really really strong, however there is one big weakness, they are really slow (2 big weaknesses if you count that they are tier 3). I know you already know this but go blink stalker and try to catch the broodlords off guard, when they aren't with the army. Maybe "fake" an attack on a far away expo, draw the fast army away from the broodlords and snipe them.
Also carriers are sort of an option.
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
On October 02 2010 01:10 Amestir wrote:As a zerg player I must say I love Broodlords Yes broodlords are really really strong, however there is one big weakness, they are really slow (2 big weaknesses if you count that they are tier 3). I know you already know this but go blink stalker and try to catch the broodlords off guard, when they aren't with the army. Maybe "fake" an attack on a far away expo, draw the fast army away from the broodlords and snipe them. Also carriers are sort of an option.
There's not catching Broodlords off guard, it's just sending wave of zealots to counter the zergs bases on the other side of the map - you have too many minerals, mayaswell dump them into zealots and do something with them. Carriers are only an option if you catch it well in advance, 3 carriers ain't going to do jack against hydra/BL - 6-8 Carriers and then we're talking.
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http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=156634
Watch the second replay there and watch broodlord ownage, from a game "won" by zerg about 10 minutes in.
BTW: you don't need blink stalkers storm and void rays. Storm + void rays OR blink stalkers is enough really. If they're not hydra heavy just void rays is fine, but storming both hydras and broodlords at once is juicy.
Oh, and if zerg has hydras and broodlords and you don't have storm tech you probably deserve to lose the game, since hydras are so unbelievably bad against stalker colossus and hydra roach is just a matter of forcefields, he needs to really rush to get them before any appreciable attack. If you lose the first fight and then keep going stalker/sentry/colossus well ultralisks will own you just as hard.
Hive tech always was something zerg needed to fight the other races. Look at how imba dark swarm is, zerg has absolutely zero chance to win a high level tvz without it in BW. PvZ without ultralisks? Better be jaedong or gg. Guardians used to be good until vessels and corsairs became so popular, the equivalent of pheonix and ravens. Storm was also really, really good against them.
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game 2....100 probes man.. that leaves you with only 100 supply for your army.
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Netherlands6142 Posts
How about a mothership? If you're slamming down 2 Stargates maybe make on of those a fleet beacon and get an Mship out. He'll be forced to keep his Corruptors and they die to your cloaked stalkers and sentries. Feedback the Overseers. In fact, make that your next Will it work?: MShip + Feedback vs Z!
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Yeah I've been having a lot of trouble with broodlords as well... Though I hardly see them used by a lot of zergs (Guess cause i'm such a baller with my expo 7 gate all in they don't get to them... =) ) I actually don't 7 gate all in very often and lately I've been using templars more so than colossus because of corruptors and just how fragile colossus are.
But when I do face them I find storm almost completely ineffective. Phoenixes basically poke them, like a wraith attacking a ground unit. Blink stalker is obv the best/only viable choice... but if they have any sort of army then you can't blink to them and focus because you're going to get owned by their main army and their second army of broodlings. You can add archons to take care of their 2nd army (broodlings) but they're just going to get creamed and not really help your battle vs the main army. So basically what I'm getting at is, you have to get stalker/zealot/templar/archons/dt's/void rays/carriers and mother ships. Not phoenixes though, 'cause they just poke anything in the air other than muta/overlords
I 100% agree with your post
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
There really is no prob with bl's
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Don't you dare inc. don't you dare. You've already taken away my joy of bitching about terran, don't you dare take my broodlords.
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I don't think that protoss players should complain about pvz and broodlords.
Seriously you should be able to kill a zerg before hive tech or at least have enough money to get a massive stalker/phoenix/voidrays army.
Early game PvT is way more frustrating =(
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My PvZ never gets to broodlords, ultras are so much more popular at my level. Late game I usually add about 2 robos to pump immortals in anticipation of Ultra, I'd be pretty fucked against broodlords.
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On October 02 2010 01:56 Boblion wrote:
I don't think that protoss players should complain about pvz and broodlords.
Seriously you should be able to kill a zerg before hive tech or at least have enough money to get a massive stalker/phoenix/voidrays army.
Early game PvT is way more frustrating =(
your first line of reasoning is terrible. There should not be a unit that when it gets out the game is over lol, gotta kill him before he gets to X or i die is silly. Though i agree you should be able to get an adequate army out to counter it!
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It was specifically stated in the OP that he wants to practice late-game PvZ and thus does not want to use a mid-game timing push to end it before BLs
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As a Zerg i feel broodlords are very bad against Terran, and ok against P, but only broodlord is not enough, and you can only get them if you have a kick ass economy. Against an established P with a good economy usually switching between BL and Ultra +support is the only thing that works.
EDIT: continuing, it's a massive unit with 1 armor and quite low health, and a different upgrade path (air) if you didnt go mass muta beforehand. +3 Blinkstalkers eat them alive, voidrays are also very good against them, and can be used for other functions too beside anti-BL
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I dunno, I never get broodlords against toss because I feel they're too easily countered. Before the patch I was exclusively getting ultras, but now, after 1.1.1... I don't know what I'm going to do against toss.
But, there are so many ways to kill broodlords with toss, and no, it's not just, "get X unit." It's more complicated than that, but so many units do work.
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On October 02 2010 02:09 Divinek wrote:Show nested quote +On October 02 2010 01:56 Boblion wrote:
I don't think that protoss players should complain about pvz and broodlords.
Seriously you should be able to kill a zerg before hive tech or at least have enough money to get a massive stalker/phoenix/voidrays army.
Early game PvT is way more frustrating =( your first line of reasoning is terrible. There should not be a unit that when it gets out the game is over lol, gotta kill him before he gets to X or i die is silly. Though i agree you should be able to get an adequate army out to counter it!
They're called All in attacks. 2 Base all ins exist as well. If you refuse to get a unit to counter the broodlord then you have to win before he gets them. The bonus is that stalker/sentry/colossus is insanely good against all zerg lair tech so its a tradeoff.
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I'm so happy that you are raging at pvz for once instead of just owning with whatever you do.
+ Show Spoiler +
also
So yes, I know that there are indirect counters to BLs, but I just wish there was an easier way
I wish there was an easier way for most things too  .
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Broodlords can't be overpowered. You don't play broodlords. You play zerg. Zerg can be overpowered. Broodlrods can't. Quit playing against broodlords and play against zerg.
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I don't really see the problem with blords, it feels fair they dont have a hardcounter from p (altho blink stalkers do really well, missing transition into blords is pretty impossible to miss>) considering their survivability, speed and especially time/cost/tech to get them.
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hey Plexa, i watched your game vs jimdiddy on metalopolis. might i say you have your ht/immortal build down very solidly to the end game. (much more solidly than mine, man i need a zerg practice partner)
eh, although broodlords are very strong i wouldn't call them invincible. its quite hard to get a hugely critical amount out when you're pressuring them, even if they are on 4gas. along with this pressure on their 4th it should buy you enough time to get your void combo, only reason i think you lost that game i watched was because you had all of your hts sniped by lings before your first encounter with the broodlords.
That's just my opinion, i really havnt played enough pvz's for it to be a solid opinion
edit: has anyone noticed that the most retarded units all havn't come from bw?
i mean seriously, the broodlord: pretty much acts as a permanent pdd to someone using the A-move function. rendering protoss ground units useless unless they micro hard, which is the wrong thing to do since microing hard =massive loss of macro.
immortal: IT DOES TONS OF DAMAGE HAHA. byebye viability of ultralisks, thors and anything else that's armored and can be easily focus fired. If Rock played sc2 he would build only immortals.
voidray: a unit that's only merit is taking the enemy by suprise
and then the marauder which i think is a pretty decent concept, it just turned it a little bit rediculous
im not whining about imbalance at all i just think the functions of these units is really stupid when put to test.
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On October 02 2010 03:09 RoieTRS wrote:
Broodlords can't be overpowered. You don't play broodlords. You play zerg. Zerg can be overpowered. Broodlrods can't. Quit playing against broodlords and play against zerg.
Not only are you being a douche by arguing over semantics, but you are also wrong. It is perfectly fine to use the term "overpowered" to describe a unit.
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On October 02 2010 03:33 Slithe wrote:Show nested quote +On October 02 2010 03:09 RoieTRS wrote:
Broodlords can't be overpowered. You don't play broodlords. You play zerg. Zerg can be overpowered. Broodlrods can't. Quit playing against broodlords and play against zerg. Not only are you being a douche by arguing over semantics, but you are also wrong. It is perfectly fine to use the term "overpowered" to describe a unit.
Hive is a mechanic of zerg. Zerg's armies are effective in small numbers relatively, but once T and P approach 200/200 zerg can't compete without hive tech. Therefore, broodlords and ultralisks need to be borderline "overpowered" against a typical anti lair army. They do have counters but if they want to get immortal/ht/stalker heavy to counter ultra or broodlord your ling/hydra/roach are more effective.
RoieTRS' post was far more intelligent than yours. In BW basically every unit was overpowered in some way. The races, however, were balanced. Everything needs to be put into context. The broodlord is a costly, slow unit that takes a long time and a lot of resources to tech too. Looking at pure cost effectiveness isn't altogether reasonable. It's like looking at the cost effectiveness of a reaver behind a protoss army. They do outrageous damage but are slow, awkward to use and have terrible AI.
BTW: This isn't some bullshit I made up with the hive tech thing, its been here since SC:BW and still is a core aspect of the ZvT and ZvP matchups in brood war currently.
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On October 02 2010 02:18 ShadeR wrote:
It was specifically stated in the OP that he wants to practice late-game PvZ and thus does not want to use a mid-game timing push to end it before BLs
Isn't that just his problem? He knows how to win and how to end the game without dealing with Brood Lords. If you're putting artificial restraints on your own gameplay, you shouldn't complain when you lose. If a Zerg said "I want to practice against a late game Terran army" and let the Terran go up to some 200/200 death blob and got rolled no one would defend it. Protoss units are stronger at the beginning and the race is more suited to ending the game faster. The longer you let the Zerg macro the more likely he's going to win.
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On October 02 2010 03:09 RoieTRS wrote:
Broodlords can't be overpowered. You don't play broodlords. You play zerg. Zerg can be overpowered. Broodlrods can't. Quit playing against broodlords and play against zerg.
That's one hell of a straw man if I ever did see one. Plexa was arguing that brood lords feel overpowered in the context of certain game states (specifically along with hydralisks from the midgame). You made some inane argument with the premise that he's somehow saying one unit is blindly overpowered. Such is not the case at all.
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use blink stalkers nub
Actually, I remember my first game against moonglade back at launch when my ELO was crazy high. We were actually doing pretty evenly, I was wiping out his armies with a huge Zealot/Stalker/Immortal/Colossi army while suffering heavy casualties. He took a secret gold (I checked EVERY possible expo except this one..) and popped a few Brood Lords. Then I just got destroyed.
Then I lost the next 3 games in a row to him from baneling busts, hah.
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On October 02 2010 04:41 Slayer91 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 02 2010 03:33 Slithe wrote:On October 02 2010 03:09 RoieTRS wrote:
Broodlords can't be overpowered. You don't play broodlords. You play zerg. Zerg can be overpowered. Broodlrods can't. Quit playing against broodlords and play against zerg. Not only are you being a douche by arguing over semantics, but you are also wrong. It is perfectly fine to use the term "overpowered" to describe a unit. Hive is a mechanic of zerg. Zerg's armies are effective in small numbers relatively, but once T and P approach 200/200 zerg can't compete without hive tech. Therefore, broodlords and ultralisks need to be borderline "overpowered" against a typical anti lair army. They do have counters but if they want to get immortal/ht/stalker heavy to counter ultra or broodlord your ling/hydra/roach are more effective. RoieTRS' post was far more intelligent than yours. BTW: This isn't some bullshit I made up, its been here since SC:BW and still is a core aspect of the ZvT and ZvP matchups in brood war currently.
You are misunderstanding what I was saying. I made no comment about whether brood lords were overpowered. In fact, my point has nothing to do with the current state of balance at all. I was arguing about the definition of the word overpowered, and whether the term is applicable to units. This is an argument about common english slang, not starcraft balance.
On October 02 2010 05:11 FC.Strike wrote:Show nested quote +On October 02 2010 03:09 RoieTRS wrote:
Broodlords can't be overpowered. You don't play broodlords. You play zerg. Zerg can be overpowered. Broodlrods can't. Quit playing against broodlords and play against zerg. That's one hell of a straw man if I ever did see one. Plexa was arguing that brood lords feel overpowered in the context of certain game states (specifically along with hydralisks from the midgame). You made some inane argument with the premise that he's somehow saying one unit is blindly overpowered. Such is not the case at all.
Am I the only one that interpreted RoieTRS's post as a pedantic remark about Plexa's use of the word overpowered?
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I'm not here to discuss english slang. I can go argue with someone else:D
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On October 02 2010 03:06 Slayer91 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 02 2010 02:09 Divinek wrote:On October 02 2010 01:56 Boblion wrote:
I don't think that protoss players should complain about pvz and broodlords.
Seriously you should be able to kill a zerg before hive tech or at least have enough money to get a massive stalker/phoenix/voidrays army.
Early game PvT is way more frustrating =( your first line of reasoning is terrible. There should not be a unit that when it gets out the game is over lol, gotta kill him before he gets to X or i die is silly. Though i agree you should be able to get an adequate army out to counter it! They're called All in attacks. 2 Base all ins exist as well. If you refuse to get a unit to counter the broodlord then you have to win before he gets them. The bonus is that stalker/sentry/colossus is insanely good against all zerg lair tech so its a tradeoff.
im confused how all in attacks have anything to do with what i was saying.
I was just saying it's dumb if people view a unit as ending a game when it comes out. But i think there's always a reasonable option to have an army out to counter that unit.
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countering broodlords vs countering BCs
which one would you prefer?
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
On October 02 2010 03:21 stroggos wrote:
hey Plexa, i watched your game vs jimdiddy on metalopolis. might i say you have your ht/immortal build down very solidly to the end game. (much more solidly than mine, man i need a zerg practice partner) First game I've gone immortal/HT 
On October 02 2010 01:44 {88}iNcontroL wrote:
There really is no prob with bl's
After writing this out, getting a good nights sleep, and forgetting about some of those traumatic games - I've worked out what I'll be doing in future against Hive Zerg. All a matter of regular hallu-phoenix scouting and catching that transition. Once the transition is scouted lay down 2 stargates and pump voidrays and get speed (possibly add mothership for cloak). Either ultra/bl should die to VRs and speedrays are incredible harass tools.
Still, broodlords frustrate me more than anything
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if the game goes long you should really expect broodlords to come. whenever i see hive i throw down 2 stargates just in case. Its worth it and by that time you should be on like 4-5 base anyway so it shouldnt be too much of a cost issue
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IMO,
the main counter to broodlords is scouting.
they can win games indefinately when they come by surprise. yet if you scout the spiire morphing you can for sure get out the needed units to beat them.
its kinda like void rays for zerg.
when you know its coming you can prepare.
but when it rears its head and says" peek abo BITCH!" your gonna lose.
though if a zerg player can spit out alot of brood lords out quickly and over run your army even though you have prepared. imo it comes down to the zergs macro being good. thus the problem lies else where
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I just rolled a zerg a few minutes ago, he went all roach (obviously, thanks 1.2), and so I went stalker/immortal/sentry... Easily took care of his lame burrow abuse, I cleaned up his 3rd (on scrap station) and moved up to his natural, I had a control group of about 30 units and lo and behold 5 brood lords just popped out, and he won.
I even said to him "Get the auto win unit, and auto win." he replied, " LULZ YUP". Fucking ridiculous. Protoss has like 0 anti air units. Blink stalkers are the only viable option, and if it's a game where 2 huge armies are battling, it doesn't matter if you have blink stalkers or not, you're just going to suicide them trying to focus down one brood lord. Storm is just way too easy for them to dodge, and it doesn't really do too much damage unless they're afk while the storm is hitting them. Phoenixes just poke armored air, void rays are too resource heavy to tech switch, and carriers take too long to build/too resource heavy. I mean don't get me wrong I'm glad that they nerfed the void ray (again) and I'm extremely happy that they didn't touch broodlords or marauders. But come on, even if they go straight up muta/ling you're probably going to lose. If they get a broodlord it's insanely hard to kill.
Yeah, Terran doesn't really have any trouble vs them because vikings can shoot them from one island expo on lost temple to the other. It kind of sucks that because they aren't dominating Terran, that their domination of Protoss gets overlooked.
Sorry for rebumping this, but it's definitely something that really needs some attention.
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Reading this thread again made me lol.
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On October 02 2010 01:14 Slayer91 wrote:http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=156634Watch the second replay there and watch broodlord ownage, from a game "won" by zerg about 10 minutes in. BTW: you don't need blink stalkers storm and void rays. Storm + void rays OR blink stalkers is enough really. If they're not hydra heavy just void rays is fine, but storming both hydras and broodlords at once is juicy. Oh, and if zerg has hydras and broodlords and you don't have storm tech you probably deserve to lose the game, since hydras are so unbelievably bad against stalker colossus and hydra roach is just a matter of forcefields, he needs to really rush to get them before any appreciable attack. If you lose the first fight and then keep going stalker/sentry/colossus well ultralisks will own you just as hard. Hive tech always was something zerg needed to fight the other races. Look at how imba dark swarm is, zerg has absolutely zero chance to win a high level tvz without it in BW. PvZ without ultralisks? Better be jaedong or gg. Guardians used to be good until vessels and corsairs became so popular, the equivalent of pheonix and ravens. Storm was also really, really good against them.
Going a little off-topic here, but it saddens me that a 3k post forum veteran refers to BW in the past tense like it's some obsolete 12 year old game. Maybe it is, but Proleague is still alive and well so play it sometimes yah?:D
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Hes using it as a reference. It IS an old game which is still alive, but it has many lessons/methods which can be transferred to sc2.
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EPT
