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hey Plexa, i watched your game vs jimdiddy on metalopolis. might i say you have your ht/immortal build down very solidly to the end game. (much more solidly than mine, man i need a zerg practice partner)
eh, although broodlords are very strong i wouldn't call them invincible. its quite hard to get a hugely critical amount out when you're pressuring them, even if they are on 4gas. along with this pressure on their 4th it should buy you enough time to get your void combo, only reason i think you lost that game i watched was because you had all of your hts sniped by lings before your first encounter with the broodlords.
That's just my opinion, i really havnt played enough pvz's for it to be a solid opinion
edit: has anyone noticed that the most retarded units all havn't come from bw?
i mean seriously, the broodlord: pretty much acts as a permanent pdd to someone using the A-move function. rendering protoss ground units useless unless they micro hard, which is the wrong thing to do since microing hard =massive loss of macro.
immortal: IT DOES TONS OF DAMAGE HAHA. byebye viability of ultralisks, thors and anything else that's armored and can be easily focus fired. If Rock played sc2 he would build only immortals.
voidray: a unit that's only merit is taking the enemy by suprise
and then the marauder which i think is a pretty decent concept, it just turned it a little bit rediculous
im not whining about imbalance at all i just think the functions of these units is really stupid when put to test.
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On October 02 2010 03:09 RoieTRS wrote:
Broodlords can't be overpowered. You don't play broodlords. You play zerg. Zerg can be overpowered. Broodlrods can't. Quit playing against broodlords and play against zerg.
Not only are you being a douche by arguing over semantics, but you are also wrong. It is perfectly fine to use the term "overpowered" to describe a unit.
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On October 02 2010 03:33 Slithe wrote:Show nested quote +On October 02 2010 03:09 RoieTRS wrote:
Broodlords can't be overpowered. You don't play broodlords. You play zerg. Zerg can be overpowered. Broodlrods can't. Quit playing against broodlords and play against zerg. Not only are you being a douche by arguing over semantics, but you are also wrong. It is perfectly fine to use the term "overpowered" to describe a unit.
Hive is a mechanic of zerg. Zerg's armies are effective in small numbers relatively, but once T and P approach 200/200 zerg can't compete without hive tech. Therefore, broodlords and ultralisks need to be borderline "overpowered" against a typical anti lair army. They do have counters but if they want to get immortal/ht/stalker heavy to counter ultra or broodlord your ling/hydra/roach are more effective.
RoieTRS' post was far more intelligent than yours. In BW basically every unit was overpowered in some way. The races, however, were balanced. Everything needs to be put into context. The broodlord is a costly, slow unit that takes a long time and a lot of resources to tech too. Looking at pure cost effectiveness isn't altogether reasonable. It's like looking at the cost effectiveness of a reaver behind a protoss army. They do outrageous damage but are slow, awkward to use and have terrible AI.
BTW: This isn't some bullshit I made up with the hive tech thing, its been here since SC:BW and still is a core aspect of the ZvT and ZvP matchups in brood war currently.
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On October 02 2010 02:18 ShadeR wrote:
It was specifically stated in the OP that he wants to practice late-game PvZ and thus does not want to use a mid-game timing push to end it before BLs
Isn't that just his problem? He knows how to win and how to end the game without dealing with Brood Lords. If you're putting artificial restraints on your own gameplay, you shouldn't complain when you lose. If a Zerg said "I want to practice against a late game Terran army" and let the Terran go up to some 200/200 death blob and got rolled no one would defend it. Protoss units are stronger at the beginning and the race is more suited to ending the game faster. The longer you let the Zerg macro the more likely he's going to win.
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On October 02 2010 03:09 RoieTRS wrote:
Broodlords can't be overpowered. You don't play broodlords. You play zerg. Zerg can be overpowered. Broodlrods can't. Quit playing against broodlords and play against zerg.
That's one hell of a straw man if I ever did see one. Plexa was arguing that brood lords feel overpowered in the context of certain game states (specifically along with hydralisks from the midgame). You made some inane argument with the premise that he's somehow saying one unit is blindly overpowered. Such is not the case at all.
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use blink stalkers nub 
Actually, I remember my first game against moonglade back at launch when my ELO was crazy high. We were actually doing pretty evenly, I was wiping out his armies with a huge Zealot/Stalker/Immortal/Colossi army while suffering heavy casualties. He took a secret gold (I checked EVERY possible expo except this one..) and popped a few Brood Lords. Then I just got destroyed.
Then I lost the next 3 games in a row to him from baneling busts, hah.
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On October 02 2010 04:41 Slayer91 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 02 2010 03:33 Slithe wrote:On October 02 2010 03:09 RoieTRS wrote:
Broodlords can't be overpowered. You don't play broodlords. You play zerg. Zerg can be overpowered. Broodlrods can't. Quit playing against broodlords and play against zerg. Not only are you being a douche by arguing over semantics, but you are also wrong. It is perfectly fine to use the term "overpowered" to describe a unit. Hive is a mechanic of zerg. Zerg's armies are effective in small numbers relatively, but once T and P approach 200/200 zerg can't compete without hive tech. Therefore, broodlords and ultralisks need to be borderline "overpowered" against a typical anti lair army. They do have counters but if they want to get immortal/ht/stalker heavy to counter ultra or broodlord your ling/hydra/roach are more effective. RoieTRS' post was far more intelligent than yours. BTW: This isn't some bullshit I made up, its been here since SC:BW and still is a core aspect of the ZvT and ZvP matchups in brood war currently.
You are misunderstanding what I was saying. I made no comment about whether brood lords were overpowered. In fact, my point has nothing to do with the current state of balance at all. I was arguing about the definition of the word overpowered, and whether the term is applicable to units. This is an argument about common english slang, not starcraft balance.
On October 02 2010 05:11 FC.Strike wrote:Show nested quote +On October 02 2010 03:09 RoieTRS wrote:
Broodlords can't be overpowered. You don't play broodlords. You play zerg. Zerg can be overpowered. Broodlrods can't. Quit playing against broodlords and play against zerg. That's one hell of a straw man if I ever did see one. Plexa was arguing that brood lords feel overpowered in the context of certain game states (specifically along with hydralisks from the midgame). You made some inane argument with the premise that he's somehow saying one unit is blindly overpowered. Such is not the case at all.
Am I the only one that interpreted RoieTRS's post as a pedantic remark about Plexa's use of the word overpowered?
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I'm not here to discuss english slang. I can go argue with someone else:D
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On October 02 2010 03:06 Slayer91 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 02 2010 02:09 Divinek wrote:On October 02 2010 01:56 Boblion wrote:
I don't think that protoss players should complain about pvz and broodlords.
Seriously you should be able to kill a zerg before hive tech or at least have enough money to get a massive stalker/phoenix/voidrays army.
Early game PvT is way more frustrating =( your first line of reasoning is terrible. There should not be a unit that when it gets out the game is over lol, gotta kill him before he gets to X or i die is silly. Though i agree you should be able to get an adequate army out to counter it! They're called All in attacks. 2 Base all ins exist as well. If you refuse to get a unit to counter the broodlord then you have to win before he gets them. The bonus is that stalker/sentry/colossus is insanely good against all zerg lair tech so its a tradeoff.
im confused how all in attacks have anything to do with what i was saying.
I was just saying it's dumb if people view a unit as ending a game when it comes out. But i think there's always a reasonable option to have an army out to counter that unit.
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countering broodlords vs countering BCs
which one would you prefer?
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
On October 02 2010 03:21 stroggos wrote:
hey Plexa, i watched your game vs jimdiddy on metalopolis. might i say you have your ht/immortal build down very solidly to the end game. (much more solidly than mine, man i need a zerg practice partner) First game I've gone immortal/HT 
On October 02 2010 01:44 {88}iNcontroL wrote:
There really is no prob with bl's
After writing this out, getting a good nights sleep, and forgetting about some of those traumatic games - I've worked out what I'll be doing in future against Hive Zerg. All a matter of regular hallu-phoenix scouting and catching that transition. Once the transition is scouted lay down 2 stargates and pump voidrays and get speed (possibly add mothership for cloak). Either ultra/bl should die to VRs and speedrays are incredible harass tools.
Still, broodlords frustrate me more than anything 
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if the game goes long you should really expect broodlords to come. whenever i see hive i throw down 2 stargates just in case. Its worth it and by that time you should be on like 4-5 base anyway so it shouldnt be too much of a cost issue
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IMO,
the main counter to broodlords is scouting.
they can win games indefinately when they come by surprise. yet if you scout the spiire morphing you can for sure get out the needed units to beat them.
its kinda like void rays for zerg.
when you know its coming you can prepare.
but when it rears its head and says" peek abo BITCH!" your gonna lose.
though if a zerg player can spit out alot of brood lords out quickly and over run your army even though you have prepared. imo it comes down to the zergs macro being good. thus the problem lies else where
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I just rolled a zerg a few minutes ago, he went all roach (obviously, thanks 1.2), and so I went stalker/immortal/sentry... Easily took care of his lame burrow abuse, I cleaned up his 3rd (on scrap station) and moved up to his natural, I had a control group of about 30 units and lo and behold 5 brood lords just popped out, and he won.
I even said to him "Get the auto win unit, and auto win." he replied, " LULZ YUP". Fucking ridiculous. Protoss has like 0 anti air units. Blink stalkers are the only viable option, and if it's a game where 2 huge armies are battling, it doesn't matter if you have blink stalkers or not, you're just going to suicide them trying to focus down one brood lord. Storm is just way too easy for them to dodge, and it doesn't really do too much damage unless they're afk while the storm is hitting them. Phoenixes just poke armored air, void rays are too resource heavy to tech switch, and carriers take too long to build/too resource heavy. I mean don't get me wrong I'm glad that they nerfed the void ray (again) and I'm extremely happy that they didn't touch broodlords or marauders. But come on, even if they go straight up muta/ling you're probably going to lose. If they get a broodlord it's insanely hard to kill.
Yeah, Terran doesn't really have any trouble vs them because vikings can shoot them from one island expo on lost temple to the other. It kind of sucks that because they aren't dominating Terran, that their domination of Protoss gets overlooked.
Sorry for rebumping this, but it's definitely something that really needs some attention.
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Reading this thread again made me lol.
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On October 02 2010 01:14 Slayer91 wrote:http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=156634Watch the second replay there and watch broodlord ownage, from a game "won" by zerg about 10 minutes in. BTW: you don't need blink stalkers storm and void rays. Storm + void rays OR blink stalkers is enough really. If they're not hydra heavy just void rays is fine, but storming both hydras and broodlords at once is juicy. Oh, and if zerg has hydras and broodlords and you don't have storm tech you probably deserve to lose the game, since hydras are so unbelievably bad against stalker colossus and hydra roach is just a matter of forcefields, he needs to really rush to get them before any appreciable attack. If you lose the first fight and then keep going stalker/sentry/colossus well ultralisks will own you just as hard. Hive tech always was something zerg needed to fight the other races. Look at how imba dark swarm is, zerg has absolutely zero chance to win a high level tvz without it in BW. PvZ without ultralisks? Better be jaedong or gg. Guardians used to be good until vessels and corsairs became so popular, the equivalent of pheonix and ravens. Storm was also really, really good against them.
Going a little off-topic here, but it saddens me that a 3k post forum veteran refers to BW in the past tense like it's some obsolete 12 year old game. Maybe it is, but Proleague is still alive and well so play it sometimes yah?:D
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Hes using it as a reference. It IS an old game which is still alive, but it has many lessons/methods which can be transferred to sc2.
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EPT
