EPTversus phenix automove shoot thing sigh...
lmfao, i dont play sc2, never knew that existed. Blizzard trying to emulate jaedong's muta micro...
SC2 vs. BW: The Better Spectator Sport - Page 3
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YPang
United States4024 Posts
lmfao, i dont play sc2, never knew that existed. Blizzard trying to emulate jaedong's muta micro... | ||
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QuanticHawk
United States32157 Posts
On August 19 2010 23:50 AppleTart wrote: You see, in BW it was like this crazy war but in SC2 you usually see one giant fight and whoever wins wins the game, those make about 90% of the games, in BW a player can win the giant fight but may stilll lose the game, theres just a lot more back and fourth in BW. Great for spectators. What version of SC2 are you playing?? | ||
Chill
Calgary26003 Posts
Edit: Oh... it is... | ||
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konadora
Singapore66364 Posts
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AppleTart
United States1261 Posts
Same as everyone else, about 80% of my diamond PvTs end up as some giant clash between a ball of bio and my zeals and colosi.... granted I'm not the best, but at least many of my D+ games on ICCUP were pretty dynamic. | ||
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ironchef
Canada1350 Posts
One problem with bw though is the start is a bit slower (4 miners vs 6). I think certain gameplay elements in BW are just so devastating its fun to watch, even if you dont get all the subtleties. Big Reaver hits, mine ownage and vulture runbys, scourges etc. The other thing for me is the sound effects.BW sound effects are so loud and pronounced. SC2's is OK, but I felt like WC3 had really boring sound effects. | ||
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DeckOneBell
United States526 Posts
Obviously having Jaedong/Flash/Fantasy/Bisu/whoever else playing BW makes it more exciting. They're freaking monsters. Idra is good, no doubt, and he's been showing us some great gameplay, but he doesn't destroy his competition in the same way, say, Flash does. SC2 players need to get better, and they are. You can tell the skill gap from even two months ago. New players are arriving all the time, some old players are leaving since they don't want to put in the time or effort, and in general, it's still coming up. When I first thought, damn, SC2 tournaments are going to be AWESOME was when IntoTheRainbow fought Tester on Blistering Sands. Did anyone else see that marauder micro? It was ridiculous the way he saved all his marauders while picking off unit after unit, even against forcefield, taking a split second to even lower a supply depot. And that's probably only the start of the ridiculous micro we're going to see in SC2. Anyone who's talking about units not being as splashy as in BW, okay, that might be a little true. But it evens out the game too. I personally hate seeing a game won just because of a lucky (or unlucky) scarab or spider mine. There's still some awesome moments in the game, like blue fire hellions attacking a worker line, or banelings dropping into a worker line, or just banelings in general. Especially early on. They hit like a ton of bricks. This isn't even counting my favorite unit ever, the phoenix, which, in my opinion, looks badass with "moving shot." As players get better, I think we'll see less of this giant ball vs. giant ball stuff in tournaments, and a more fluid and mobile army that might spread itself out either to contain or defend multiple expansions. The potential of a lot of units are definitely undiscovered. Remember how everyone thought siege tanks sucked? Then a minor change to splash, followed by an HP buff, and they were considered overpowered. Even after a 10 damage nerf. All the match-ups are constantly evolving. | ||
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Tenryu
United States565 Posts
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PoP
France15446 Posts
On August 20 2010 00:37 DeckOneBell wrote: When I first thought, damn, SC2 tournaments are going to be AWESOME was when IntoTheRainbow fought Tester on Blistering Sands. Did anyone else see that marauder micro? It was ridiculous the way he saved all his marauders while picking off unit after unit, even against forcefield, taking a split second to even lower a supply depot. And that's probably only the start of the ridiculous micro we're going to see in SC2. It was pretty good, but it looks like the only kind of potentially impressive micro you can see in SC2 (kiting/hit & running and stuff), aside from FFs and maybe some phoenix shit (dunno how much skills it takes though, seems like they attack like that on their own). What makes BW beautiful imo is the diversity in all kinds of micro. Almost every single unit has its own way of being controlled. Worker sliding, zergling surrounds, M&M vs lurkers, lurkers vs M&M, shuttle/reaver, carriers, goliaths vs carriers, muta vs m&m, mutas vs scourges, hydras vs storm (escaping), defiler micro, wraith vs Z micro, valk micro, spider mines placement micro, etc etc etc. Basically nothing feels the same as anything else, and everything can feel impressive and "wow" in its own unique way. I don't see such a huge diversity happening in SC2 no matter how skilled the players become in the future. The game just doesn't feel designed in a way that would make it possible. Only time will tell I guess. | ||
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Caphe
Vietnam10817 Posts
In SC2, Blizzard just taken out to much small things that audience can applaud on. Now with all that auto surronding, smart target arquire and everything... Its really just come to who scout better/better luck to do a build that counter his opponent. | ||
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DeckOneBell
United States526 Posts
On August 20 2010 01:18 PoP wrote: It was pretty good, but it looks like the only kind of potentially impressive micro you can see in SC2 (kiting/hit & running and stuff), aside from FFs and maybe some phoenix shit (dunno how much skills it takes though, seems like they attack like that on their own). What makes BW beautiful imo is the diversity in all kinds of micro. Almost every single unit has its own way of being controlled. Worker sliding, zergling surrounds, M&M vs lurkers, lurkers vs M&M, shuttle/reaver, carriers, goliaths vs carriers, muta vs m&m, mutas vs scourges, hydras vs storm (escaping), defiler micro, wraith vs Z micro, valk micro, spider mines placement micro, etc etc etc. Basically nothing feels the same as anything else, and everything can feel impressive and "wow" in its own unique way. I don't see such a huge diversity happening in SC2 no matter how skilled the players become in the future. The game just doesn't feel designed in a way that would make it possible. Only time will tell I guess. I don't know, I feel like we're starting to see some of that stuff come out of SC2. Admittedly, the movement types aren't drastically different like BW, with the sliding shot from vultures and muta micro, etc. etc. but there's some interesting fights coming out. Vikings against void rays tends to be interesting, it's actually really easy for a terran player to screw up just a bit and lose his vikings. I personally find great satisfaction in invading an entrenched terran position and lifting all his tanks with phoenixes so my zealots can run in. Thors stand around and bully mutas, while zerg players try to get their mutas to either spread, or stand right on top of the thor to take less damage from the splash. And I'm pretty sure we'll see some sweet storm dodging at one point or another. Zergling vs. baneling is pretty cool to watch, with zerg players trying to snipe banelings while the banelings try to get worker kills or multiple zergling kills. I do agree that some of the SC2 design does seem against the "wow" factor. Again, I point out that it does provide for more consistent games, with less of a turning point based on one spell cast, or one lucky hit. Still, I'm a little disappointed as well that storms are so small, EMPs are so quick and fungal growth is instant. Fungal growth really needs an animation. It's so weird to just see random units lock into place, then have green stuff grow on them. I'm actually alright with the current implementation of storm. They feel pretty powerful if used correctly. I wish EMP had a more visual hit--you can actually lose it inside of a battle pretty easily. Still, I feel like certain strategies are "locked" in SC2. Hopefully we'll eventually see a protoss player slide fast void rays around the map keeping them fully charged the entire time at the cost of a poor phoenix's shields, or maybe in the terran player's base. Honestly, this is all very theoretical, because I don't think a "standard" play style has really emerged yet, for SC2. People use so many different builds that all have varying degrees of effectiveness. (Oh, and minor sidenote: One thing I don't like about BW is how it is partially reliant on gltiches. Yes, muta stacking is cool, but it's hard for a new viewer to understand. It's counterintuitive. Just like the extremely annoying building placement necessary for BW) | ||
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QuanticHawk
United States32157 Posts
On August 20 2010 01:34 Caphe wrote: Ofc its BW. In SC2, Blizzard just taken out to much small things that audience can applaud on. Now with all that auto surronding, smart target arquire and everything... Its really just come to who scout better/better luck to do a build that counter his opponent. Why does everyone use such ridiculous hyperbole?? Play using just attack move vs someone who does basic micro. He will beat you. On August 20 2010 01:18 PoP wrote: It was pretty good, but it looks like the only kind of potentially impressive micro you can see in SC2 (kiting/hit & running and stuff), aside from FFs and maybe some phoenix shit (dunno how much skills it takes though, seems like they attack like that on their own). What makes BW beautiful imo is the diversity in all kinds of micro. Almost every single unit has its own way of being controlled. Worker sliding, zergling surrounds, M&M vs lurkers, lurkers vs M&M, shuttle/reaver, carriers, goliaths vs carriers, muta vs m&m, mutas vs scourges, hydras vs storm (escaping), defiler micro, wraith vs Z micro, valk micro, spider mines placement micro, etc etc etc. Basically nothing feels the same as anything else, and everything can feel impressive and "wow" in its own unique way. I don't see such a huge diversity happening in SC2 no matter how skilled the players become in the future. The game just doesn't feel designed in a way that would make it possible. Only time will tell I guess. Feedback is a beautiful thing in some match ups. Smack a thor with it—it's not easy but the reward is great. And phoenix use definitely isn't easy. If you've got enough to lift and harass, he's probably got AA units. You gotta micro and lift the right stuff while still controlling your main army and macroing, which isn't exactly easy since you've got to warp in units. And sentries are a very strong unit if properly used and that's not easy as people are making it out to be. Hydras still get hurt by storm. Infestors are the new defiler and they're just as worthless without micro. There's plenty of instances where each unit has a unique way it is microed. You guys aren't realizing it because you're so used to old BW units. Hell, blink stalkers are damn fun. It's so rewarding to see big army charging at you and then blinking to the back to take out some casters. | ||
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Hurricane
United States3939 Posts
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Xenocide_Knight
Korea (South)2625 Posts
On August 20 2010 02:21 Hawk wrote: Why does everyone use such ridiculous hyperbole?? Play using just attack move vs someone who does basic micro. He will beat you. because basic micro is a given.. No one orgasmed when you used dragoons to kite zealots, it was 100% assumed even lowly D level players would (or should..) do that. And that kind of basic micro is literally 90% of the micro possible in sc2. laaaaaaaame On August 20 2010 02:21 Hawk wrote: Feedback is a beautiful thing in some match ups. Smack a thor with it—it's not easy but the reward is great. And phoenix use definitely isn't easy. If you've got enough to lift and harass, he's probably got AA units. You gotta micro and lift the right stuff while still controlling your main army and macroing, which isn't exactly easy since you've got to warp in units. And sentries are a very strong unit if properly used and that's not easy as people are making it out to be. Hydras still get hurt by storm. Infestors are the new defiler and they're just as worthless without micro. There's plenty of instances where each unit has a unique way it is microed. You guys aren't realizing it because you're so used to old BW units. Hell, blink stalkers are damn fun. It's so rewarding to see big army charging at you and then blinking to the back to take out some casters. The point isnt that sc2 has no micro, it's that it pales in comparison to BW micro. Storm in BW = gg. Storm in BW = half hp hydras. And phoenix micro is a joke. Even arbiter micro was harder than that. And much more exciting to watch because each arbiter cost a fortune and took forever to make. Infestor micro... what just pressing 1 then spamming f on the enemy army? You can't honestly tell me that's comparable to cloning darkswarms while having to click drag your entire lurker/ling army in. sc2 has lots of micro, it's just a joke compared to BW. | ||
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FraCuS
United States1072 Posts
Maybe I'm just too used to watching BW every morning :D! | ||
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shadesofkarma
Romania708 Posts
Maybe one day SC2 will have something as cool as ZvT vessels trying to irradiate defilers before they got too close to swarm while dodging scourge while the scourge are trying not to get too close to marines and sieging tanks and controlling 5 groups of MM dodging lurker spines and focusing fire on lurkers before they burrowed but at the same time swarm is being cast and lurkers are burrowing in slow increments 2 or 3 at a time to try and force T back as much as possible while firebats are being positioned to do max splash damage on lings while lings are trying to spread vs the firebats and planting mines with vultures and lings are running through minefields for a minedrag all at the same time while keeping resources low off 4 base. Until then its BW for me. | ||
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Necosarius
Sweden4042 Posts
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AppleTart
United States1261 Posts
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squaremanhole
United States82 Posts
On August 20 2010 00:37 DeckOneBell wrote: Have to mostly agree with Hawk here, but also say that I currently do enjoy BW more. Obviously having Jaedong/Flash/Fantasy/Bisu/whoever else playing BW makes it more exciting. They're freaking monsters. Idra is good, no doubt, and he's been showing us some great gameplay, but he doesn't destroy his competition in the same way, say, Flash does. SC2 players need to get better, and they are. You can tell the skill gap from even two months ago. New players are arriving all the time, some old players are leaving since they don't want to put in the time or effort, and in general, it's still coming up. When I first thought, damn, SC2 tournaments are going to be AWESOME was when IntoTheRainbow fought Tester on Blistering Sands. Did anyone else see that marauder micro? It was ridiculous the way he saved all his marauders while picking off unit after unit, even against forcefield, taking a split second to even lower a supply depot. And that's probably only the start of the ridiculous micro we're going to see in SC2. Anyone who's talking about units not being as splashy as in BW, okay, that might be a little true. But it evens out the game too. I personally hate seeing a game won just because of a lucky (or unlucky) scarab or spider mine. There's still some awesome moments in the game, like blue fire hellions attacking a worker line, or banelings dropping into a worker line, or just banelings in general. Especially early on. They hit like a ton of bricks. This isn't even counting my favorite unit ever, the phoenix, which, in my opinion, looks badass with "moving shot." As players get better, I think we'll see less of this giant ball vs. giant ball stuff in tournaments, and a more fluid and mobile army that might spread itself out either to contain or defend multiple expansions. The potential of a lot of units are definitely undiscovered. Remember how everyone thought siege tanks sucked? Then a minor change to splash, followed by an HP buff, and they were considered overpowered. Even after a 10 damage nerf. All the match-ups are constantly evolving. This typically turns out to not be so much luck as it is skill. And having a bit of luck within a game is what makes it exciting, so it's not a bad thing at all. Just my personal opinion. | ||
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_awake_
196 Posts
On August 19 2010 22:23 Hawk wrote: SC2 looks about 100x nicer if you have a halfway decent computer. It's gorgeous on good one. It also takes every important core element that made BW great and refines it. I loved the original, but it's 2010 and it looks like shit when compared visual with SC2. This is every bit as fluid as the original; the visuals, the game play.... everything. The fact that all of you would base your opinions on something dumb like the ability to select more than 12 units and friggin automine.... jesus christ people. That's like the biggest hockey fan in the world suddenly hating the game because they ditched dead trees for composite sticks. It's inconsequential in the visual appeal to a spectator. Sorry Hawk, SC2 looks like any modern RTS game. I can't see wtf is going on beneath the laser beams  If you actually read the thread, you would understand the implications of 12 unit groups and automine. It's not about bringing SC2 down, it's about appreciating the high skill required for BW. And selecting 100 units to 1a attack is consequential, it looks shit. | ||
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