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CA10831 Posts
On August 09 2010 03:58 Waxangel wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2010 02:50 LosingID8 wrote:On August 09 2010 01:52 udgnim wrote:
need to consider that the equivalent of $1 USD goes a lot farther in South Korea than in the US where do people keep getting these ideas from lol because it's common sense?
it makes sense if you were talking about middle-of-nowhere, south korea, but not seoul where all of these progamers live.
i just did a quick search on wiki and found the following info;
Mercer Human Resource Consulting has Seoul ranked as the 51st most expensive city to live in in the world behind NYC, LA, White Plains, SF, Honolulu, Miami, and Chicago. I'm not quite sure what caused it to drop so dramatically because for the past 7 years it has been ranked in the top 10.
Economist Intelligence Unit has Seoul ranked 11th, higher than any US city.
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LETA IS UNDERPAID and cool icon Losing
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It's interesting to see how much the players are making as none of these include the bonuses the top players may get by winning Proleague/various Starleagues and other non-monetary prizes like the new slick Samsung phones I'm sure Khan is getting.
Plus the free chicken received for favors too.
According to simplyhired.com, the average Korean salary is around $46,000 annually meaning that many of these young men/teenagers are making significantly more than the average Korean wage-earner.
But what I think a lot of the people in this thread are missing out on is the fact that, yes these Starcraft players make a load of cash, but that's only relevant in the context that THEY ARE WORKING FAR MORE HOURS for their salary. I hardly think that the average Korean person works from 9AM-1AM a day as some of these players are--and possibly more. If anyone would be willing to crunch some numbers and calculate the average hourly wage of these players and juxtapose them to the average hourly wage of the standard Korean person, we might see a different picture altogether.
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5003 Posts
But what I think a lot of the people in this thread are missing out on is the fact that, yes these Starcraft players make a load of cash, but that's only relevant in the context that THEY ARE WORKING FAR MORE HOURS for their salary. I hardly think that the average Korean person works from 9AM-1AM a day as some of these players are--and possibly more. If anyone would be willing to crunch some numbers and calculate the average hourly wage of these players and juxtapose them to the average hourly wage of the standard Korean person, we might see a different picture altogether.
Haha. Good one.
Just an example of how much Korea cares about your free time -- my cousin in Korea went to school at 7 AM, came back at 1 AM after cram schools after school. Oh, not to mention Koreans almost always work overtime, for free.
Also.... if the progamers don't practice, they can't compete. Simple as that. Take off your rose colored glasses dude
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these salaries show just how terrible progaming is as a career in terms of monetary compensation and future skills per time invested unless you hit the very very very top, and you could list the number of progamers who have truly "made it" on just two hands.
but impressive for a video game ten plus years old
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On August 09 2010 08:25 Milkis wrote:Show nested quote +But what I think a lot of the people in this thread are missing out on is the fact that, yes these Starcraft players make a load of cash, but that's only relevant in the context that THEY ARE WORKING FAR MORE HOURS for their salary. I hardly think that the average Korean person works from 9AM-1AM a day as some of these players are--and possibly more. If anyone would be willing to crunch some numbers and calculate the average hourly wage of these players and juxtapose them to the average hourly wage of the standard Korean person, we might see a different picture altogether. Haha. Good one. Just an example of how much Korea cares about your free time -- my cousin in Korea went to school at 7 AM, came back at 1 AM after cram schools after school. Oh, not to mention Koreans almost always work overtime, for free. Also.... if the progamers don't practice, they can't compete. Simple as that. Take off your rose colored glasses dude
The example you use is about how much students are studying in Korea. Yeah I know the academic rigor is tough in Korea, my statement says nothing about. Students study their asses off, sure. But my point was wanting to compare the average per-hour salary of a working Korean adult vs. the per-hour salary of a working Korean progamer because simply saying that they make big bucks annually without the context of how much practice time they're putting in to make it could leave a different scene.
Your next point IS my point exactly. Because they NEED to practice their asses off in order to even have a shot in any league, I'm sure that they would be working what til the early morning almost every day.
And I don't think you're using the idiom 'rose colored glasses' correctly.
Idiom:
through rose-colored glasses
With an unduly cheerful, optimistic, or favorable view of things: see the world through rose-colored glases.
(http://www.thefreedictionary.com/through+rose-colored+glasses)
If anything, I'm taking a pessimistic view of the situation. I think that programers tend to make this much money annually because they put in more time into practicing/playing than the hours an average Korea individual works.
Edit: Not to mention that progaming doesn't prepare you for a more stable white-collar job in the long run. What I'm saying is that if we compared by-hour earnings for these players, they might be making less per hour than there non-gaming counterparts without the work experience or other bonuses (i.e. health insurance, stock options etc.) another job might give you.
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5003 Posts
The example you use is about how much students are studying in Korea. Yeah I know the academic rigor is tough in Korea, my statement says nothing about. Students study their asses off, sure. But my point was wanting to compare the average per-hour salary of a working Korean adult vs. the per-hour salary of a working Korean progamer because simply saying that they make big bucks annually without the context of how much practice time they're putting in to make it could leave a different scene.
No, my point is "this is how much the kids work. Adults work about as much". Koreans are one of the people who works the most so honestly the hours aren't even ridiculous.
Your next point IS my point exactly. Because they NEED to practice their asses off in order to even have a shot in any league, I'm sure that they would be working what til the early morning almost every day.
Right.
And I don't think you're using the idiom 'rose colored glasses' correctly.
Idiom:
through rose-colored glasses
With an unduly cheerful, optimistic, or favorable view of things: see the world through rose-colored glases.
(http://www.thefreedictionary.com/through+rose-colored+glasses)
If anything, I'm taking a pessimistic view of the situation. I think that programers tend to make this much money annually because they put in more time into practicing/playing than the hours an average Korea individual works.
Nah, I did use it correctly. You seem to think they should be paid more because they work so much. But the point is, that's how it works out to be, and they choose to be Progamers. They don't deserve our pity. Hell, the more people pity them the worse they'll probably feel.
They chose to be Progamers, and people pity them for making a "bad life decision". How does that make you feel? Let them raise their heads high and say "I am a progamer" proudly. There is no different picture -- this is their occupation and they do what they do :|
Yeah this is sort of disoriented. Maybe i'll make another post later
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On August 09 2010 08:47 Milkis wrote:Show nested quote +The example you use is about how much students are studying in Korea. Yeah I know the academic rigor is tough in Korea, my statement says nothing about. Students study their asses off, sure. But my point was wanting to compare the average per-hour salary of a working Korean adult vs. the per-hour salary of a working Korean progamer because simply saying that they make big bucks annually without the context of how much practice time they're putting in to make it could leave a different scene. No, my point is "this is how much the kids work. Adults work about as much". Koreans are one of the people who works the most so honestly the hours aren't even ridiculous. Show nested quote +Your next point IS my point exactly. Because they NEED to practice their asses off in order to even have a shot in any league, I'm sure that they would be working what til the early morning almost every day. Right. Show nested quote +And I don't think you're using the idiom 'rose colored glasses' correctly.
Idiom:
through rose-colored glasses
With an unduly cheerful, optimistic, or favorable view of things: see the world through rose-colored glases.
(http://www.thefreedictionary.com/through+rose-colored+glasses)
If anything, I'm taking a pessimistic view of the situation. I think that programers tend to make this much money annually because they put in more time into practicing/playing than the hours an average Korea individual works. Nah, I did use it correctly. You seem to think they should be paid more because they work so much. But the point is, that's how it works out to be, and they choose to be Progamers. They don't deserve our pity. Hell, the more people pity them the worse they'll probably feel. They chose to be Progamers, and people pity them for making a "bad life decision". How does that make you feel? Let them raise their heads high and say "I am a progamer" proudly. There is no different picture -- this is their occupation and they do what they do :| Yeah this is sort of disoriented. Maybe i'll make another post later
I don't think you've understanding what the original point in my first post here was. I wasn't saying that progamers should be making more. I was calling attention to the fact that people in this thread are saying things like 'wow thats a lot of money' without considering how much the average progamer has to work in order to make that money. I myself don't know how the per-hour wage numbers work out to be. Maybe Progamers make the same perhour earnings as a regular individual; maybe they don't. It wasn't my point to say that they should be making 'x' amount, but that the people who are claiming they are making so much ignore the fact that progamers might work from 9-1 and then some during their average day for their pay. I was simply asking for more context to be put into the salary of a progamer; I WASN'T saying anything substantive about whether they should be making more or less.
But also, just glancing at some numbers wikipedia gives me (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Working_time), the average Korean worker works 2390 hours over the course of a year. If a progamer does indeed work from 9-1 Monday-Friday (though I'm sure they practice Sat-Sun for important matches too), that works out to be (16 hours a day x 261 work days in a year) 4176 hours 'worked' a year. My point is simply that Progamers work longer than the average Korean adult and THATS why they have such high salaries.
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Action doesn't have a contract because mafias don't use contracts to make their living.
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On August 09 2010 08:21 cunninglinguists wrote:But what I think a lot of the people in this thread are missing out on is the fact that, yes these Starcraft players make a load of cash, but that's only relevant in the context that THEY ARE WORKING FAR MORE HOURS for their salary. I hardly think that the average Korean person works from 9AM-1AM a day as some of these players are--and possibly more. If anyone would be willing to crunch some numbers and calculate the average hourly wage of these players and juxtapose them to the average hourly wage of the standard Korean person, we might see a different picture altogether.
What makes you think a lot of people are missing out on that?
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On August 09 2010 11:47 JohannesH wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2010 08:21 cunninglinguists wrote:But what I think a lot of the people in this thread are missing out on is the fact that, yes these Starcraft players make a load of cash, but that's only relevant in the context that THEY ARE WORKING FAR MORE HOURS for their salary. I hardly think that the average Korean person works from 9AM-1AM a day as some of these players are--and possibly more. If anyone would be willing to crunch some numbers and calculate the average hourly wage of these players and juxtapose them to the average hourly wage of the standard Korean person, we might see a different picture altogether. What makes you think a lot of people are missing out on that?
Because it doesn't make sense to say "oh they make a lot!" when you take into context how many hours they work. It would be more impressive if they were part time, worked 3 days a week, etc. but when you calculate the $/hour rate it isn't surprisingly high. So he speculated what he thought to be a likely reason as to why people might be considering the pay as high.
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On August 09 2010 11:47 JohannesH wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2010 08:21 cunninglinguists wrote:But what I think a lot of the people in this thread are missing out on is the fact that, yes these Starcraft players make a load of cash, but that's only relevant in the context that THEY ARE WORKING FAR MORE HOURS for their salary. I hardly think that the average Korean person works from 9AM-1AM a day as some of these players are--and possibly more. If anyone would be willing to crunch some numbers and calculate the average hourly wage of these players and juxtapose them to the average hourly wage of the standard Korean person, we might see a different picture altogether. What makes you think a lot of people are missing out on that?
There's quite a few posts in this thread (specifically on the first page) that have people going 'woah they're making big bucks here'. I just thought I might jump in and say something about that because simply showing the annual take doesn't reveal the whole picture. The post after yours summarizes my intention really well.
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On August 09 2010 08:25 Milkis wrote:Show nested quote +But what I think a lot of the people in this thread are missing out on is the fact that, yes these Starcraft players make a load of cash, but that's only relevant in the context that THEY ARE WORKING FAR MORE HOURS for their salary. I hardly think that the average Korean person works from 9AM-1AM a day as some of these players are--and possibly more. If anyone would be willing to crunch some numbers and calculate the average hourly wage of these players and juxtapose them to the average hourly wage of the standard Korean person, we might see a different picture altogether. Haha. Good one. Just an example of how much Korea cares about your free time -- my cousin in Korea went to school at 7 AM, came back at 1 AM after cram schools after school. Oh, not to mention Koreans almost always work overtime, for free. Also.... if the progamers don't practice, they can't compete. Simple as that. Take off your rose colored glasses dude
I think it's easier to make a bigger deal out of progamer hours than it really is. Korea works crazy hours in general. Korean progamers work slightly crazier hours because it's a competitive environment with no cap where everyone's trying to eke out any small advantage they can. Plus they have to work hard to reverse stereotypes and show progaming is a real profession.
As non Koreans it's easier for us to get hung up on the hours because we're not used to that in our society. For a lot of Starcraft fans the only thing many of us might know about Korea is the Starcraft Proscene so we notice the differences in life between ours and theirs. We think it's wrong how many hours players dedicate when this is what Korean culture is applied to a video game. Students in Korea study insane hours just the same at that age, and they're all trying to get the top positions to go to the best schools. But there's no sport centered around it so it doesn't speak to us in the same way.
If something bothers you it should be the number hours Korean culture demands. That's it. These players don't get any favors by working less then is expected for the culture they live in.
On August 09 2010 08:47 Milkis wrote:
Nah, I did use it correctly. You seem to think they should be paid more because they work so much. But the point is, that's how it works out to be, and they choose to be Progamers. They don't deserve our pity. Hell, the more people pity them the worse they'll probably feel.
They chose to be Progamers, and people pity them for making a "bad life decision". How does that make you feel? Let them raise their heads high and say "I am a progamer" proudly. There is no different picture -- this is their occupation and they do what they do :|
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5003 Posts
I don't think you've understanding what the original point in my first post here was. I wasn't saying that progamers should be making more. I was calling attention to the fact that people in this thread are saying things like 'wow thats a lot of money' without considering how much the average progamer has to work in order to make that money. I myself don't know how the per-hour wage numbers work out to be. Maybe Progamers make the same perhour earnings as a regular individual; maybe they don't. It wasn't my point to say that they should be making 'x' amount, but that the people who are claiming they are making so much ignore the fact that progamers might work from 9-1 and then some during their average day for their pay. I was simply asking for more context to be put into the salary of a progamer; I WASN'T saying anything substantive about whether they should be making more or less.
I dunno. Money is money, Hourly wage likely is more meaningful in a non-sports setting, when hourly wage can to a certain degree, measure productivity. But in a sports setting, it's difficult to say "how much they practice" is meaningful. It's kinda unfair to go into sports settings when they say that.
In order to make a proper comparison, I'm going to ask -- how many of these kids do you think will play a certain amount of Starcraft *anyway* even if they aren't in a progame team? I'm going to say quite a number of hours. If you consider that, how much additional hours are they playing to play the game? I wouldn't say it's that bad at that point and it's probably equivalent of that of a normal kid.
But also, just glancing at some numbers wikipedia gives me (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Working_time), the average Korean worker works 2390 hours over the course of a year. If a progamer does indeed work from 9-1 Monday-Friday (though I'm sure they practice Sat-Sun for important matches too), that works out to be (16 hours a day x 261 work days in a year) 4176 hours 'worked' a year. My point is simply that Progamers work longer than the average Korean adult and THATS why they have such high salaries.
No. The number of hours they work have nothing to do with their salaries. That's a terrible connection to make that can be disproved by just pointing at B Teamers who make zero money.
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On August 09 2010 00:44 apm66 wrote:
Flash: $215,313.070US
Jaedong $189,475.501
Bisu 172,250.456
Sea 64,593.921
haha my god, some of these people make absolutely nothing. it's so top heavy. The fuck if I wanna play a video game for 14 hours a day just to make $25k. That blows no matter how old you are.... especially when you consider that these people are sacrificing education for this job. When they retire, they have zero transferable skills.
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On August 09 2010 07:24 LosingID8 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2010 03:58 Waxangel wrote:On August 09 2010 02:50 LosingID8 wrote:On August 09 2010 01:52 udgnim wrote:
need to consider that the equivalent of $1 USD goes a lot farther in South Korea than in the US where do people keep getting these ideas from lol because it's common sense? it makes sense if you were talking about middle-of-nowhere, south korea, but not seoul where all of these progamers live. i just did a quick search on wiki and found the following info; Mercer Human Resource Consulting has Seoul ranked as the 51st most expensive city to live in in the world behind NYC, LA, White Plains, SF, Honolulu, Miami, and Chicago. I'm not quite sure what caused it to drop so dramatically because for the past 7 years it has been ranked in the top 10. Economist Intelligence Unit has Seoul ranked 11th, higher than any US city.
Ah, correct me if I'm wrong, but don't most of the cost of living in large cities comes from finding a place to live and/or food costs?
Don't progamers get room and board for free? Doesn't that make their effective salary higher?
I mean obviously, we don't see the whole picture. If you're not good then you're probably getting paid like nothing, but I think there's a bit of extra factors in here than just pay when determining what top tier progamers "really" get. Of course, I could be completely wrong, I'm just curious.
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On August 09 2010 23:17 Milkis wrote:Show nested quote +But also, just glancing at some numbers wikipedia gives me (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Working_time), the average Korean worker works 2390 hours over the course of a year. If a progamer does indeed work from 9-1 Monday-Friday (though I'm sure they practice Sat-Sun for important matches too), that works out to be (16 hours a day x 261 work days in a year) 4176 hours 'worked' a year. My point is simply that Progamers work longer than the average Korean adult and THATS why they have such high salaries. No. The number of hours they work have nothing to do with their salaries. That's a terrible connection to make that can be disproved by just pointing at B Teamers who make zero money.
Right, I completely agree. Good thing that was never my point. Not ALL progamers will have high salaries. B-Teamers make virtually nil. My point only concerned THESE TOP 30 progamers. Whenever I referred to 'Progamers' in my previous posts, I was referring to what almost everyone else in this thread were talking about when they said "woah these progamers make big bucks"--the top 30 kespa ranking gamers you had in your initial post. All I'm saying is that people who say 'these TOP progamers make so much money' might be better off saying 'these top progamers work for such long hours every day.' Imagine some janitor in Korea. He might make a small amount of money. If I gave you a sheet with the average janitor salary, you might say "yeah he doesn't make much" and you'd be right. But, if the janitor worked 19 hours a day at his normal, low rate (though obviously none do), he might be making quite a lot a year, perhaps enough to be even considered upper middle class--I dunno. But if then I showed you simply the numbers that pointed to his annual take, and asked you to guess what you think his job is, you might guess some white-collar company employee.
That is what I'm getting at. The reason his salary is inflated and your guess is wrong in this hypothetical situation isn't because he gets a lot of money by the end of the year (which is only shown here), it's because he's working more hours even if it's at his old, measly rate.
If I offered you two jobs, both of which paid the same annually but one was a janitorial position and the other a manager position at a company, you might be suspicious and ask me what the catch is. And you'd be right in doing so because I'd then pull out some sheets and have to admit to you that the reason the janitor makes more is because he works more hours. In the context of how much a person makes, the hours that they work is very relevant.
I came into this thread initially and read some posts by people saying stuff like "woah they make so much." That's true. But it doesn't give what I think is the full picture: how many hours do these progamers work in order to earn this much money? My post simply called for some more context to be added to the salaries of the progamers. I had hoped that someone with the access to the appropriate numbers might be able to check out if, after seeing the HOURLY WAGE, if the progamers still made more than the average individual or simply worked more. I wasn't trying to say anything about how bad their job was, or to pity them (as you assumed). In fact, I didn't even know if they did indeed have worse jobs. I was essentially asking a question so it was really perplexing to me when you replied to my posts with arguments against it. I was just asking for more context--in the form of an hourly wage rather than an annual one--to be posted by someone.
Hope that clarifies things.
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5003 Posts
On August 10 2010 09:18 cunninglinguists wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2010 23:17 Milkis wrote:But also, just glancing at some numbers wikipedia gives me (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Working_time), the average Korean worker works 2390 hours over the course of a year. If a progamer does indeed work from 9-1 Monday-Friday (though I'm sure they practice Sat-Sun for important matches too), that works out to be (16 hours a day x 261 work days in a year) 4176 hours 'worked' a year. My point is simply that Progamers work longer than the average Korean adult and THATS why they have such high salaries. No. The number of hours they work have nothing to do with their salaries. That's a terrible connection to make that can be disproved by just pointing at B Teamers who make zero money. Right, I completely agree. Good thing that was never my point. Not ALL progamers will have high salaries. B-Teamers make virtually nil. My point only concerned THESE TOP 30 progamers. Whenever I referred to 'Progamers' in my previous posts, I was referring to what almost everyone else in this thread were talking about when they said "woah these progamers make big bucks"--the top 30 kespa ranking gamers you had in your initial post. All I'm saying is that people who say 'these TOP progamers make so much money' might be better off saying 'these top progamers work for such long hours every day.' Imagine some janitor in Korea. He might make a small amount of money. If I gave you a sheet with the average janitor salary, you might say "yeah he doesn't make much" and you'd be right. But, if the janitor worked 19 hours a day at his normal, low rate (though obviously none do), he might be making quite a lot a year, perhaps enough to be even considered upper middle class--I dunno. But if then I showed you simply the numbers that pointed to his annual take, and asked you to guess what you think his job is, you might guess some white-collar company employee. That is what I'm getting at. The reason his salary is inflated and your guess is wrong in this hypothetical situation isn't because he gets a lot of money by the end of the year (which is only shown here), it's because he's working more hours even if it's at his old, measly rate. If I offered you two jobs, both of which paid the same annually but one was a janitorial position and the other a manager position at a company, you might be suspicious and ask me what the catch is. And you'd be right in doing so because I'd then pull out some sheets and have to admit to you that the reason the janitor makes more is because he works more hours. In the context of how much a person makes, the hours that they work is very relevant. I came into this thread initially and read some posts by people saying stuff like "woah they make so much." That's true. But it doesn't give what I think is the full picture: how many hours do these progamers work in order to earn this much money? My post simply called for some more context to be added to the salaries of the progamers. I had hoped that someone with the access to the appropriate numbers might be able to check out if, after seeing the HOURLY WAGE, if the progamers still made more than the average individual or simply worked more. I wasn't trying to say anything about how bad their job was, or to pity them (as you assumed). In fact, I didn't even know if they did indeed have worse jobs. I was essentially asking a question so it was really perplexing to me when you replied to my posts with arguments against it. I was just asking for more context--in the form of an hourly wage rather than an annual one--to be posted by someone.Hope that clarifies things.
The issue is that not everything actually breaks down hourly. You're trying to fit an hourly wage system into a system that doesn't really use an hourly wage system. What we're honestly looking at is a tournament system of incentives.
Actually, let's play to your argument and lets break it down by an hourly wage. Let's say, in the end, they get paid like, 2 dollars an hour.
You're getting paid 2 dollars an hour to play a videogame. What value are you producing? The marginal cost of two dollars probably dont make up for the marginal revenue that much. You are likely getting overpaid.
That's kind of the reason why it's kind of a silly way of looking at it. I understand what you're trying to say but I'm just against the idea of looking at it like that because not everything breaks down hourly that simply =(
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On August 10 2010 09:56 Milkis wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2010 09:18 cunninglinguists wrote:On August 09 2010 23:17 Milkis wrote:But also, just glancing at some numbers wikipedia gives me (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Working_time), the average Korean worker works 2390 hours over the course of a year. If a progamer does indeed work from 9-1 Monday-Friday (though I'm sure they practice Sat-Sun for important matches too), that works out to be (16 hours a day x 261 work days in a year) 4176 hours 'worked' a year. My point is simply that Progamers work longer than the average Korean adult and THATS why they have such high salaries. No. The number of hours they work have nothing to do with their salaries. That's a terrible connection to make that can be disproved by just pointing at B Teamers who make zero money. Right, I completely agree. Good thing that was never my point. Not ALL progamers will have high salaries. B-Teamers make virtually nil. My point only concerned THESE TOP 30 progamers. Whenever I referred to 'Progamers' in my previous posts, I was referring to what almost everyone else in this thread were talking about when they said "woah these progamers make big bucks"--the top 30 kespa ranking gamers you had in your initial post. All I'm saying is that people who say 'these TOP progamers make so much money' might be better off saying 'these top progamers work for such long hours every day.' Imagine some janitor in Korea. He might make a small amount of money. If I gave you a sheet with the average janitor salary, you might say "yeah he doesn't make much" and you'd be right. But, if the janitor worked 19 hours a day at his normal, low rate (though obviously none do), he might be making quite a lot a year, perhaps enough to be even considered upper middle class--I dunno. But if then I showed you simply the numbers that pointed to his annual take, and asked you to guess what you think his job is, you might guess some white-collar company employee. That is what I'm getting at. The reason his salary is inflated and your guess is wrong in this hypothetical situation isn't because he gets a lot of money by the end of the year (which is only shown here), it's because he's working more hours even if it's at his old, measly rate. If I offered you two jobs, both of which paid the same annually but one was a janitorial position and the other a manager position at a company, you might be suspicious and ask me what the catch is. And you'd be right in doing so because I'd then pull out some sheets and have to admit to you that the reason the janitor makes more is because he works more hours. In the context of how much a person makes, the hours that they work is very relevant. I came into this thread initially and read some posts by people saying stuff like "woah they make so much." That's true. But it doesn't give what I think is the full picture: how many hours do these progamers work in order to earn this much money? My post simply called for some more context to be added to the salaries of the progamers. I had hoped that someone with the access to the appropriate numbers might be able to check out if, after seeing the HOURLY WAGE, if the progamers still made more than the average individual or simply worked more. I wasn't trying to say anything about how bad their job was, or to pity them (as you assumed). In fact, I didn't even know if they did indeed have worse jobs. I was essentially asking a question so it was really perplexing to me when you replied to my posts with arguments against it. I was just asking for more context--in the form of an hourly wage rather than an annual one--to be posted by someone.Hope that clarifies things. The issue is that not everything actually breaks down hourly. You're trying to fit an hourly wage system into a system that doesn't really use an hourly wage system. What we're honestly looking at is a tournament system of incentives. Actually, let's play to your argument and lets break it down by an hourly wage. Let's say, in the end, they get paid like, 2 dollars an hour. You're getting paid 2 dollars an hour to play a videogame. What value are you producing? The marginal cost of two dollars probably dont make up for the marginal revenue that much. You are likely getting overpaid. That's kind of the reason why it's kind of a silly way of looking at it. I understand what you're trying to say but I'm just against the idea of looking at it like that because not everything breaks down hourly that simply =(
I'm still uneasy with how you characterize my post as an "argument" when it is in fact not. But I'm going to leave that aside.
I guess I should've been more precise with my post. My fault. I completely understand why you interpreted it as me applying a system of hourly wages (because well, I asked for it). But what I was really trying to point out was this: is the wage that each progamer earns proportional to the amount of effort that they put in? That is, do they merit the salary that they have? Because depending on how you look at it, you may come to different conclusions (as implied in my first post in this thread). People who just say that Flash and Jaedong are making big bucks imply that their contract salaries are really frickin high for some kids who play a video game . But if you could somehow correlate that with the amount of effort (I chose to use hours spent here to represent that because it's the most easily measurable; things like 'effort spent' and 'determination' are much harder to quantify because they're so vague) put into their career, you might see the case that in fact their salaries are perfectly fine.
I'm not advocating that these players should stick by a hourly wage system. But I think you'd grant that simply showing annual salary gives an imperfect view too. When you tell me that 'not everything breaks down...that simply' it applies to the OP as well. You can't just say the top 30 Kespa players making x amount and leave it be as if that was enough. No matter how we choose to see it, hourly wage or looking at like using a tournament system of incentives a la auto-racers, there needs to be more to the picture if a meaningful discussion of wages are to be had =(
But regardless, this discussion might all be moot if, as you suggest in the OP, these numbers are from some sketch fancafe. Furthermore, you should get back to translating more awesome articles that I love to read instead of congenially discussion with me as you have a topic that we can neither shape nor alter.
Cheers.
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What does no contract mean? Like he's playing for fun?
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EPT
