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On August 08 2010 23:41 Jefferino wrote:
1. On the Blizz/KeSPA split:
I love how some of the last Brood War stragglers are hoping and praying that SC2 fails in South Korea. I hope you guys know that your only hope for the continuation of BW as an esport there is if SC2 sees some amount of success. Blizzard and their partner GOMTV basically have KeSPA by the balls right now. KeSPA isn't legally allowed to broadcast anything Starcraft and the OSL/MSL/Starleague basically run right now because Blizzard's lawyers are choosing to ignore it.
What do you think will happen if SC2 doesn't catch on like Blizzard wants it to? Like the OP has mentioned, Blizzard has sank a huuge investment into SC2 for Korea (giant Raynors on frickin' airplanes and everything) and my guess is if SC2 doesn't perform as expected Blizzard will take drastic measures to help it out, even if it means gutting the SCBW scene there.
2. On SC2's success in Korea
I never understood why we were so concerned with SC2's success in Korea in the first place, seeing as most of the users on this site are from North/South America and Europe. Yes, I understand and respect Korea as the granddaddy of the SC esports scene, but we have already seen that a game's success as an esport in Korea has no effect whatsoever on the western esports scene (e.g. SCBW). Add that to the fact that KeSPA et al. have been historically xenophobic and have no intentions of bringing esports to the west; they are perfectly content with their little empire in Korea.
Now, if SC2 becomes wildly popular (which sales figures suggest) and becomes a major esport in the west (which I am hopeful for), I could care less about the SC2 scene in Korea. I'll be watching SC2 played by western gamers on channels/sites that speak my language. The Koreans could be burning their SC2 copies on the street for all I care.
Such ignorance. Of course Kespa is going to focus on Korean Esports, they are the Korean e-Sports Players Association. To call them xenophobic is absurd, it's not their business to bring Esports to the west. I guess you haven't heard of WCG?
It is ultimately up to other nations to cultivate their own brand of Esports. CGS was the closest the west got to making Esports mainstream. It's really up to MLG now for Esports and SC2 to go big in America.
And how could you think anyone here is "hoping and praying for SC2 to fail in Korea"? The entire point of MrHoon's blog is a wakeup call for Blizzard in order so that SC2 may succeed. I'm glad you care so much for Korea's SC2 scene.
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Korea (South)17174 Posts
On August 08 2010 23:29 Milkis wrote:Show nested quote +First of all, even if they don't sell everyone copies of their new game right away, one thing they do is plant it in their memories for later. 1) Like Starcraft 2 won't be in their memories even without all the advertisment? 2) That's all well said if the memories are good or even neutral. Where's the guarantee that it'll be actually a positive memory? 3) If they're not going to pay for it when it's free right now, why do you think they may pay for it later? Show nested quote +Secondly Koreans are totally fad-oriented. So what if it wasn't what they hoped and the fad began as soon as the game out, that doesn't mean it still can't happen later. Again, why would there be a "fad" for SC2? Is there any reason other than "Nationalism" or the unlikely scenario of Boxer swapping to promote SC2? There's a lot of variables that needs to be there for a fad to start and SC2 does not meet many of them. Show nested quote + If there's one thing I've learned about Koreans is they have their national pride and everyone can instantly start loving something they had no previous knowledge of before (this has been demonstrated time and time again with olympics and yes I realize you can't really compare gaming to olympics realistically but it does show the Koreans' incliations). Imagine a Korean team winning the first worldwide tournament. Blizzard will be saying 'Gg KESPA' as shelves at gamestores are emptied. Or imagine Blizzard getting some key names like Boxer to abandon ties to KESPA and go on a massive advertising campaign for SC2. Doesn't mean Koreans can't recognize trash. Yeah, D-War sold well, but.... I'm sure every Korean knows how trashy it was. Yeah, we all know how Kim Yu-na singlehandedly saved Figure Skating in Korea. But remember, she's a special exception. There's a lot of events Korea has been constantly winning in Olympics and there isn't much interest in them. There wasn't a sudden boom of Handball after the Women's team won back then. Kim Yu-na is literally called "Korea's national daughter". No one is going to be saying anything remotely to that for Starcraft 2. Yeah, Koreans in Starcraft 2 can win as many events as they want. But I honestly doubt anyone is going to start picking it up just cause Korea won some tournament. What actually matters is people putting together quality content for Starcraft 2, to have casuals watch it and go "Hey this is kinda fun to watch". GomTV is the worst candidate in the world to make that happen. You're also wrong about sponsors. The reason why people sponsor Starcraft is that it connects them with the younger generations that actually watch Starcraft. Corporations have to be absolute fools to advertise aiming only at the small minority who would play Starcraft 2, no matter how big it gets in the foreign world. Do you really think casuals will play and watch Starcraft 2 a year down the line? Doubtful. There's very little reasons why there'll be sponsors even if it becomes big outside Korea. Why would that mean KOREAN COMPANIES sponsor them just because it's popular out of Korea? Why does that mean it "crawls" back into the mainstream? It just means that a few highly competitive players will be keep playing the game, it doesnt mean that casuals will watch it and enjoy it -_-
You underestimate many things. Look back at this thread in a year and we'll see whos right
<--- Me.
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5003 Posts
On August 09 2010 01:07 Rekrul wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2010 23:29 Milkis wrote:First of all, even if they don't sell everyone copies of their new game right away, one thing they do is plant it in their memories for later. 1) Like Starcraft 2 won't be in their memories even without all the advertisment? 2) That's all well said if the memories are good or even neutral. Where's the guarantee that it'll be actually a positive memory? 3) If they're not going to pay for it when it's free right now, why do you think they may pay for it later? Secondly Koreans are totally fad-oriented. So what if it wasn't what they hoped and the fad began as soon as the game out, that doesn't mean it still can't happen later. Again, why would there be a "fad" for SC2? Is there any reason other than "Nationalism" or the unlikely scenario of Boxer swapping to promote SC2? There's a lot of variables that needs to be there for a fad to start and SC2 does not meet many of them. If there's one thing I've learned about Koreans is they have their national pride and everyone can instantly start loving something they had no previous knowledge of before (this has been demonstrated time and time again with olympics and yes I realize you can't really compare gaming to olympics realistically but it does show the Koreans' incliations). Imagine a Korean team winning the first worldwide tournament. Blizzard will be saying 'Gg KESPA' as shelves at gamestores are emptied. Or imagine Blizzard getting some key names like Boxer to abandon ties to KESPA and go on a massive advertising campaign for SC2. Doesn't mean Koreans can't recognize trash. Yeah, D-War sold well, but.... I'm sure every Korean knows how trashy it was. Yeah, we all know how Kim Yu-na singlehandedly saved Figure Skating in Korea. But remember, she's a special exception. There's a lot of events Korea has been constantly winning in Olympics and there isn't much interest in them. There wasn't a sudden boom of Handball after the Women's team won back then. Kim Yu-na is literally called "Korea's national daughter". No one is going to be saying anything remotely to that for Starcraft 2. Yeah, Koreans in Starcraft 2 can win as many events as they want. But I honestly doubt anyone is going to start picking it up just cause Korea won some tournament. What actually matters is people putting together quality content for Starcraft 2, to have casuals watch it and go "Hey this is kinda fun to watch". GomTV is the worst candidate in the world to make that happen. You're also wrong about sponsors. The reason why people sponsor Starcraft is that it connects them with the younger generations that actually watch Starcraft. Corporations have to be absolute fools to advertise aiming only at the small minority who would play Starcraft 2, no matter how big it gets in the foreign world. Do you really think casuals will play and watch Starcraft 2 a year down the line? Doubtful. There's very little reasons why there'll be sponsors even if it becomes big outside Korea. Why would that mean KOREAN COMPANIES sponsor them just because it's popular out of Korea? Why does that mean it "crawls" back into the mainstream? It just means that a few highly competitive players will be keep playing the game, it doesnt mean that casuals will watch it and enjoy it -_- You underestimate many things. Look back at this thread in a year and we'll see whos right <--- Me.
Right in terms of what?
Either way, anything I say will "change" based on new Blizzard/Gretech Policies so it'll be hard to tell. If we're simply going to see who's right on "Korean Nationalism" saving SC2, then.... yeah, we'll see
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Blizzard goal is to sell SC2 copies and not developing ESPORT scene. Its a preety good advertisment with huge tourney prizes for ppl to get interested but I cant see developing in the long term mostly because of Blizzard control mechanisams that put into SC2.
There is a small possibilty that SC2 can become popular just like BW but i doubt it because SC2 is extremly boring ( and alot more reasons ) to watch which means no watching on TV and just going back to the western style of ESPORT for SC2 instead of taking over BW.
Anyways good post MrHoon
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On August 08 2010 21:20 SCC-Faust wrote:
'm just worried how the game will do, and if it can be successful as an ESPORT three years from now without South Korea. No need to worry. The Esport: SC2 will be huge (not saying it will be the single largest one ever) regardless of Korea's general acceptance or rejection of the game.
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Awesome writeup Mr. Hoon. Once more, you have proven to the world the alpha and omega. Totally agree with all points and levels here. Congrats and thanks for the read! 10/5
P.S. When are you coming back to US???????? 
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Kyrgyz Republic1462 Posts
On August 08 2010 22:58 san-tokie wrote:
...
4. Warcraft 3 / 워크래프트 3
6.47%
5. Starcraft / 스타크래프트
6.31%
...
I found these numbers surprising. BW is thought by many foreigners to be the ultimate game in Korea, a national sport almost. But apparently it is less popular than even Warcraft 3 which makes me question the actual popularity of BW these days.
Also, somebody mentioned that SC2 was at about 3% and slowly rising. This means there are about half as many people playing it as those who play BW/War3. This is not bad at all for a purportedly inertial culture, is it?
This and the $500k tourney happening that is bound to attract more players make it rather hard to believe in SC2 being a total failure. It's not doing extraordinary well, but not doing that bad either.
And finally the number of players is not as relevant to this community as the amount of viewers, and how high this is going to be still remains to be seen.
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lol Starcraft 2 "Esports" ROFLOLOLOL
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On August 09 2010 01:39 Random() wrote:
I found these numbers surprising. BW is thought by many foreigners to be the ultimate game in Korea, a national sport almost.
You have to look for the number of TV viewers which is only interesting thing.
Great read MrHoon 
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Philadelphia, PA10406 Posts
On August 09 2010 00:56 Ndugu wrote:
It's doing great everywhere else.
This obsession with Korea is silly.
The obsession with Korean is not silly, it's more than justified. Korea is the only country that has been able to make a computer game into a mainstream sport, with regular events on television, and extremely well attended live games.
We know how esports works in the west; fragmented teams and tournaments across a bunch of different websites, with spotty prize money, and only the occasional niche events. That's how Sc2 is going to end up (and that's not terrible) if it doesn't take hold in Korea. The Korean model of esports is how we'd all love for it to be for Sc2, and if Korea isn't onboard, then it's to our detriment.
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Korea (South)17174 Posts
On August 09 2010 01:16 Milkis wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2010 01:07 Rekrul wrote:On August 08 2010 23:29 Milkis wrote:First of all, even if they don't sell everyone copies of their new game right away, one thing they do is plant it in their memories for later. 1) Like Starcraft 2 won't be in their memories even without all the advertisment? 2) That's all well said if the memories are good or even neutral. Where's the guarantee that it'll be actually a positive memory? 3) If they're not going to pay for it when it's free right now, why do you think they may pay for it later? Secondly Koreans are totally fad-oriented. So what if it wasn't what they hoped and the fad began as soon as the game out, that doesn't mean it still can't happen later. Again, why would there be a "fad" for SC2? Is there any reason other than "Nationalism" or the unlikely scenario of Boxer swapping to promote SC2? There's a lot of variables that needs to be there for a fad to start and SC2 does not meet many of them. If there's one thing I've learned about Koreans is they have their national pride and everyone can instantly start loving something they had no previous knowledge of before (this has been demonstrated time and time again with olympics and yes I realize you can't really compare gaming to olympics realistically but it does show the Koreans' incliations). Imagine a Korean team winning the first worldwide tournament. Blizzard will be saying 'Gg KESPA' as shelves at gamestores are emptied. Or imagine Blizzard getting some key names like Boxer to abandon ties to KESPA and go on a massive advertising campaign for SC2. Doesn't mean Koreans can't recognize trash. Yeah, D-War sold well, but.... I'm sure every Korean knows how trashy it was. Yeah, we all know how Kim Yu-na singlehandedly saved Figure Skating in Korea. But remember, she's a special exception. There's a lot of events Korea has been constantly winning in Olympics and there isn't much interest in them. There wasn't a sudden boom of Handball after the Women's team won back then. Kim Yu-na is literally called "Korea's national daughter". No one is going to be saying anything remotely to that for Starcraft 2. Yeah, Koreans in Starcraft 2 can win as many events as they want. But I honestly doubt anyone is going to start picking it up just cause Korea won some tournament. What actually matters is people putting together quality content for Starcraft 2, to have casuals watch it and go "Hey this is kinda fun to watch". GomTV is the worst candidate in the world to make that happen. You're also wrong about sponsors. The reason why people sponsor Starcraft is that it connects them with the younger generations that actually watch Starcraft. Corporations have to be absolute fools to advertise aiming only at the small minority who would play Starcraft 2, no matter how big it gets in the foreign world. Do you really think casuals will play and watch Starcraft 2 a year down the line? Doubtful. There's very little reasons why there'll be sponsors even if it becomes big outside Korea. Why would that mean KOREAN COMPANIES sponsor them just because it's popular out of Korea? Why does that mean it "crawls" back into the mainstream? It just means that a few highly competitive players will be keep playing the game, it doesnt mean that casuals will watch it and enjoy it -_- You underestimate many things. Look back at this thread in a year and we'll see whos right <--- Me. Right in terms of what? Either way, anything I say will "change" based on new Blizzard/Gretech Policies so it'll be hard to tell. If we're simply going to see who's right on "Korean Nationalism" saving SC2, then.... yeah, we'll see
korean nationalism was only one example cited in a short post
(i'm saying sc2 will be huge in korea within 1 year)
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LOL AION.
I lost all hope for Korea.
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On August 09 2010 02:13 Rekrul wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2010 01:16 Milkis wrote:On August 09 2010 01:07 Rekrul wrote:On August 08 2010 23:29 Milkis wrote:First of all, even if they don't sell everyone copies of their new game right away, one thing they do is plant it in their memories for later. 1) Like Starcraft 2 won't be in their memories even without all the advertisment? 2) That's all well said if the memories are good or even neutral. Where's the guarantee that it'll be actually a positive memory? 3) If they're not going to pay for it when it's free right now, why do you think they may pay for it later? Secondly Koreans are totally fad-oriented. So what if it wasn't what they hoped and the fad began as soon as the game out, that doesn't mean it still can't happen later. Again, why would there be a "fad" for SC2? Is there any reason other than "Nationalism" or the unlikely scenario of Boxer swapping to promote SC2? There's a lot of variables that needs to be there for a fad to start and SC2 does not meet many of them. If there's one thing I've learned about Koreans is they have their national pride and everyone can instantly start loving something they had no previous knowledge of before (this has been demonstrated time and time again with olympics and yes I realize you can't really compare gaming to olympics realistically but it does show the Koreans' incliations). Imagine a Korean team winning the first worldwide tournament. Blizzard will be saying 'Gg KESPA' as shelves at gamestores are emptied. Or imagine Blizzard getting some key names like Boxer to abandon ties to KESPA and go on a massive advertising campaign for SC2. Doesn't mean Koreans can't recognize trash. Yeah, D-War sold well, but.... I'm sure every Korean knows how trashy it was. Yeah, we all know how Kim Yu-na singlehandedly saved Figure Skating in Korea. But remember, she's a special exception. There's a lot of events Korea has been constantly winning in Olympics and there isn't much interest in them. There wasn't a sudden boom of Handball after the Women's team won back then. Kim Yu-na is literally called "Korea's national daughter". No one is going to be saying anything remotely to that for Starcraft 2. Yeah, Koreans in Starcraft 2 can win as many events as they want. But I honestly doubt anyone is going to start picking it up just cause Korea won some tournament. What actually matters is people putting together quality content for Starcraft 2, to have casuals watch it and go "Hey this is kinda fun to watch". GomTV is the worst candidate in the world to make that happen. You're also wrong about sponsors. The reason why people sponsor Starcraft is that it connects them with the younger generations that actually watch Starcraft. Corporations have to be absolute fools to advertise aiming only at the small minority who would play Starcraft 2, no matter how big it gets in the foreign world. Do you really think casuals will play and watch Starcraft 2 a year down the line? Doubtful. There's very little reasons why there'll be sponsors even if it becomes big outside Korea. Why would that mean KOREAN COMPANIES sponsor them just because it's popular out of Korea? Why does that mean it "crawls" back into the mainstream? It just means that a few highly competitive players will be keep playing the game, it doesnt mean that casuals will watch it and enjoy it -_- You underestimate many things. Look back at this thread in a year and we'll see whos right <--- Me. Right in terms of what? Either way, anything I say will "change" based on new Blizzard/Gretech Policies so it'll be hard to tell. If we're simply going to see who's right on "Korean Nationalism" saving SC2, then.... yeah, we'll see korean nationalism was only one example cited in a short post (i'm saying sc2 will be huge in korea within 1 year)
I doubt it. I wouldn't suggest betting $15.9k on it this time around.
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Braavos36374 Posts
I think the largest problem right now is that there are no "stars" in Korea for SC2 yet. They're all relatively unknown, and BW needed a guy like Boxer to jump start the whole thing. I feel the one thing the Korean scene does better than anyone else is establishing a connection between viewers and fans, something that is extremely difficult to do given that they're playing a computer game. It's much harder to show "personality" in esports than in regular sports.
Once SC2 gains some notable faces, or even some big BW names switch over, then the fans will follow. We don't know who SC2's "Boxer" will be -- we may not have even met him yet. But he's out there, and SC2 certainly has the foundation to succeed with someone like that promoting it.
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Croatia9495 Posts
Man I really wish teamliquid starts "Nuking" posts again like they did in the old days. Some of the posts here are really a sore to the eyes.
And surprisingly enough, most of them come from people defending SC2 with uneducated opinions (okay, not that surprising).
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On August 09 2010 01:39 Random() wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2010 22:58 san-tokie wrote:
...
4. Warcraft 3 / 워크래프트 3
6.47%
5. Starcraft / 스타크래프트
6.31%
...
I found these numbers surprising. BW is thought by many foreigners to be the ultimate game in Korea, a national sport almost. But apparently it is less popular than even Warcraft 3 which makes me question the actual popularity of BW these days.
Bw isn't an ultimate game in korea but that doesn't mean its less popular than Warcraft 3 or the other games that are higher on the list. A lot of people in Korea are actually more casual watchers of the game than casual players. Warcraft 3 is more popular for playing than bw right now because of Chaos which is like the Korean version of Dota but bw is definitely more popular for watching. The thing with bw is that its more like a culture of watching than actually playing. I know people who can't even think of a single warcraft pro but they know pros like jaedong, flash, bisu, boxer and nada.
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United States33330 Posts
On August 09 2010 02:45 Hot_Bid wrote:
I think the largest problem right now is that there are no "stars" in Korea for SC2 yet. They're all relatively unknown, and BW needed a guy like Boxer to jump start the whole thing. I feel the one thing the Korean scene does better than anyone else is establishing a connection between viewers and fans, something that is extremely difficult to do given that they're playing a computer game. It's much harder to show "personality" in esports than in regular sports.
Once SC2 gains some notable faces, or even some big BW names switch over, then the fans will follow. We don't know who SC2's "Boxer" will be -- we may not have even met him yet. But he's out there, and SC2 certainly has the foundation to succeed with someone like that promoting it.
One doesn't necessarily cause the other, and in this case I don't think SC II has the kind of following yet where one big superstar could be the catalyst ala Boxer.
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The game was meant to be played differently in the US and Korea... all of my friends who have never played RTS before or only played RTS casually, bought SC2 "for the story". When I hear conversations about SC2 it's always about the campaign...and when I ask someone what league he/she is on BNET, he/she usually says "I don't play multiplayer". I think Koreans couldn't care less about Single player and unless multiplayer is going to be just as fun as BW from the start, there won't be a MASS switchover.
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On August 09 2010 02:45 Hot_Bid wrote:
I think the largest problem right now is that there are no "stars" in Korea for SC2 yet. They're all relatively unknown, and BW needed a guy like Boxer to jump start the whole thing. I feel the one thing the Korean scene does better than anyone else is establishing a connection between viewers and fans, something that is extremely difficult to do given that they're playing a computer game. It's much harder to show "personality" in esports than in regular sports.
Once SC2 gains some notable faces, or even some big BW names switch over, then the fans will follow. We don't know who SC2's "Boxer" will be -- we may not have even met him yet. But he's out there, and SC2 certainly has the foundation to succeed with someone like that promoting it.
have koreans seen TLO's games?
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I think Rekrul is right.
Also, its too soon to get all upset over how things are going in S. Korea with SC2. To be honest, i dont see how it could be going any better considering the situation. SC2 "replacing" SC1 in Korea is a unique situation that will take a little longer than 2 weeks to resolve.
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EPT
