I was doing a paper on East Asians languages and number systems. I thought some of the ‘non-Asians’ would find my paper interesting since we all know 'Asians' are good at maths. Right? I’ll rewrite my paper in the most simplest form, in math~.
East Asian languages have a logical numeric pattern. Using this pattern East Asian children subconsciously learn how to do basic arithmetic when they are learning how to count.
Let's look at the English number system
Twelve = 12
An English child has to associate the word 'twelve' with a value '12'. Not only that the child has to associate words with value from one to twenty.
Let's look at the East Asian number system 十 = 10
二 = 2
十二 = 12
An East Asian child associates 十 with 10 and 二 with 2.
An East Asian child says the word 十 (10) first followed by the word 二 (2) thus making the word 十二 (12)
Through just saying the word 十二, the child learns basic addition. 十 + 二 = 十二 i.e. 10 + 2 = 12
When an English child has learned how to count to 20, An East Asian child has learned concept of adding two numbers together.
Of course when an English child learns twenty-one The English child will start to understand the concept of addition.
Twenty = 20 One = 1 Twenty-One = Twenty + One i.e. 20 + 1
However, by this time an East Asian child has already learned basic multiplication
二 = 2
十 = 10
一 = 1
An East Asian child says the word 二 (2) followed by the word 十 (10) then followed by the word 一 (1) thus making the word 二十一 (21).
In order say 21, the child must understand the basic concept of Arabic numerals.
* 2 followed by 10 is now 20 But why? * 20 followed by 1 = 21 Because of the previous rule of adding two numbers
The child subconsciously figures out 2 followed by 10 means the numbers are base 10.
i.e. 2 x 10 = 20
20 + 1 = 21
So 二十一 (21): 二 (2) follow by 十 (10) 二 (2) x 十 (10) = 二十 And using the previous rule 二十 (20) + 一 (1) = 二十一 (21)
When does an English child learn this new concept? When they reach one hundred.
One hundred = 1 x 100 Two hundred = 2 x 100
Two hundred One = 2 x 100 + 1
Once the English number system reaches one hundred, it uses the same "wording" as the East Asian number system.
Now look at the stage of the development
Infancy – Basic Counting Preschool – upto 20 Early Schooling – counts up to 100
An English child has little to no concept of Arabic until public school, while an Asian Child has already understood that the Arabic number system uses base 10 number system.
What is more interesting is concept of substraction. Going back to previous example of twelve. An English child does not understand the concept of base 10 system. This means an English child only looks at twelve as 12 not 10 + 2. If you ask the child to take away 2 from 12, the child is likely to count his fingers, and realise that he only has 10 fingers. If the child was somehow gifted and visualised 12 objects and removed two from it, it still does not change the fact the child has no concept of the 10 base number system. The English child has to be told that ‘twelve’ minus ‘two’ is ‘ten’ (The words ten and two are hard to associate with twelve since it’s a different “word”. What is even more frustrating ~ tw- is in front of the word, not at the back).
If the same question was to be asked towards an East Asian child, either the child will figure out that the answer is 10 by dissecting the word 十二 (十二 - 二 = 十) or after the answer is given, s/he will figure out that they can dissect the word 十二 into 十 and 二.
So in order for an English Child to have the same mathematical reasoning skill as an East Asian child, when the East Asian Child learns to count to 11 the English Child must learn how to count to 21 and when the East Asian child learns to count to 21 the English Child must learn to count to 101.
So what does this all mean? It’s quite simple; East Asians are not natural mathematicians. Or rather a fault in the English language creates a barrier for English speakers from learning mathematical reasoning at early age.
Do not be discouraged because there are other people who seem to be better than you at math. Just put that extra effort into it. You could beat them because they may not be as smart as you think they are~
Either that or my parents forced me to memorize the multiplication table when I was 4. And then they started brining home math workbooks.
Can't beat an early start
On July 09 2010 04:13 ella_guru wrote: There is a chapter on this in "Outliers" by Malcolm Gladwell. It's not a great book, but it's good and you bring up some ideas he doesnt.
On July 09 2010 04:18 LSB wrote: Either that or my parents forced me to memorize the multiplication table when I was 4. And then they started brining home math workbooks.
On July 09 2010 04:13 ella_guru wrote: There is a chapter on this in "Outliers" by Malcolm Gladwell. It's not a great book, but it's good and you bring up some ideas he doesnt.
Good read too ^.^
This. Korean parents make you memorize your multiplication table before you even learn to speak :<
On July 09 2010 04:18 LSB wrote: Either that or my parents forced me to memorize the multiplication table when I was 4. And then they started brining home math workbooks.
Can't beat an early start
On July 09 2010 04:13 ella_guru wrote: There is a chapter on this in "Outliers" by Malcolm Gladwell. It's not a great book, but it's good and you bring up some ideas he doesnt.
Good read too ^.^
This. Korean parents make you memorize your multiplication table before you even learn to speak :<
hahah mine didn't. I still aced math though. actually got 100% in math for HSC. But you know, Korean bro, everyone gets 100% in math here if you are korean. ^_^
On July 09 2010 04:13 ella_guru wrote: This is really great.
There is a chapter on this in "Outliers" by Malcolm Gladwell. It's not a great book, but it's good and you bring up some ideas he doesnt.
I really got to read these books. The thing is I like novels ...T___T... To feed my brain with valuable information I usually watch documentaries.
Hmm, nice read. Always thought it was cause they drilled us to do so much practice work that it became ingrained into my memory.
Had my multiplication tables drilled in when I was like 5. Just practice. Always thought that was the East Asian method. The more problems you see, you'll see all types of problems and be able to regurgitate them when needed.
i think it's an interesting idea but probably has little to do with truth
for example russian language is probably worse than english in this respect (for instance, two hundred isn't "two hundred" although it's close -- 2 is dva, hundred is sto, but 200 isn't dvasto, it's dvesti). worse still, arbitrarily after 500, instead of using 'sto' for hundred, you start using 'sot' instead. yet, russian math skills are still >> ones here
On July 09 2010 04:27 Roffles wrote: Hmm, nice read. Always thought it was cause they drilled us to do so much practice work that it became ingrained into my memory.
that helps too but that wouldn't really explain this Assumming statistics are correct and most of Asian Americans that do well in math are 1.5 or 2nd generation.
On July 09 2010 04:29 JeeJee wrote: i think it's an interesting idea but probably has little to do with truth
for example russian language is probably worse than english in this respect (for instance, two hundred isn't "two hundred" although it's close -- 2 is dva, hundred is sto, but 200 isn't dvasto, it's dvesti). worse still, arbitrarily after 500, instead of using 'sto' for hundred, you start using 'sot' instead. yet, russian math skills are still >> ones here
We don't actually mean math theory. We mean math as in schooling. If you think about it Germans have great mathmaticians if not one of the bests in the world but not many of them are good at math during schooling. And yes I know Germans!
I never had to memorize multiplication tables or anything. No memorization, just lots of logic and puzzling things out. I got all that from my caucasian dad, my Asian mother is useless at math. Dad was teaching me exponents and roots in first grade, so much fun learning from him.
Hmmm I guess that makes me an outlier, never mind me then
I was forced to memorize the multiplication table even before i started school.Yet somehow i still suck at maths.i just hope i don't fail my HSC maths exam.
On July 09 2010 04:27 Roffles wrote: Hmm, nice read. Always thought it was cause they drilled us to do so much practice work that it became ingrained into my memory.
that helps too but that wouldn't really explain this Assumming statistics are correct and most of Asian Americans that do well in math are 1.5 or 2nd generation.
On July 09 2010 04:29 JeeJee wrote: i think it's an interesting idea but probably has little to do with truth
for example russian language is probably worse than english in this respect (for instance, two hundred isn't "two hundred" although it's close -- 2 is dva, hundred is sto, but 200 isn't dvasto, it's dvesti). worse still, arbitrarily after 500, instead of using 'sto' for hundred, you start using 'sot' instead. yet, russian math skills are still >> ones here
We don't actually mean math theory. We mean math as in schooling. If you think about it Germans have great mathmaticians if not one of the bests in the world but not many of them are good at math during schooling. Yes I know Germans!
yes i was referring to math during school. in russia for example, it's like 2 years ahead of canada, at any grade pretty much. probably similar to math in china. but this has nothing to do with having language teach you multiplication or addition, because as shown, the russian language is arguably worse than english in this respect.
im happy to know of this theory, being asian myself
it's also that asian parents' drilling math practice problems outside schoolwork contributes. and i'm not entirely sure on this, but i think that speaking learning both your native language and english at a young age helps with any sort of brain activity, and thus helps with math.
On July 09 2010 04:27 Roffles wrote: Hmm, nice read. Always thought it was cause they drilled us to do so much practice work that it became ingrained into my memory.
that helps too but that wouldn't really explain this Assumming statistics are correct and most of Asian Americans that do well in math are 1.5 or 2nd generation.
On July 09 2010 04:29 JeeJee wrote: i think it's an interesting idea but probably has little to do with truth
for example russian language is probably worse than english in this respect (for instance, two hundred isn't "two hundred" although it's close -- 2 is dva, hundred is sto, but 200 isn't dvasto, it's dvesti). worse still, arbitrarily after 500, instead of using 'sto' for hundred, you start using 'sot' instead. yet, russian math skills are still >> ones here
We don't actually mean math theory. We mean math as in schooling. If you think about it Germans have great mathmaticians if not one of the bests in the world but not many of them are good at math during schooling. And yes I know Germans!
Do you honestly think your simplistic explanation accounts for that graph? A slight linguistic difference that may or may not even exist in Asian immigrant households makes their performance in a highschool aged test that much better? How do you explain the black children performing so poorly? They are learning the same numbers as the white kids when they grow up.
thats all fine and dandy, but i think the real reason why "asians are better at math" is the parenting culture that puts alot of emphasis on education.
Asian cultures have a deep root in learning and im sure love teaching that to their kids, where as where I live kids in high school can barely if at all do simple algebra or multiply fractions.
TVs set to mindless bullshit, bad parents and the idea that you dont want to be a nerd who knows a lot of stuff is just rotting young minds.
Asians are good at math because their parents discipline them more for studying. I'm black and aced my math SAT, SAT2, and AP because my parents made education a priority. It's misleading to place "race" scores side-by-side when the real gap is across household income levels and based on the education level of your parents.
By your argument of linguistic determination, I could similarly conclude that English-speakers are naturally stronger in biology, Germans in chemistry and physics, and Jews in CS, but it is really a very trivial matter aside from the fact that you're talking about indoctrination at a very young age - if you teach children anything early you're going to see good results.
This is a hypothesis, but doesn't prove much until you provide us a double-blind controlled study placed alongside competing influences with a significant r coefficient.
I didn't get drilled on my multiplication tables until I was 7. My dad told me I had to memorize it in order for him to take me see Star Wars: The Phantom Menace. Needless to say the multiplication came naturally from there.
That is an interesting idea, never thought of that. Personally though, I've always felt it was the ass whoopings.
I think the kind of "skills" or habits you need to do get good scores and grades( for pre-university) can be bruteforced through lots of work. Atleast in the education system here, it's all studying and memorizing. The good shit like proofs and difficult mathematical concepts are never really covered in highschool. (Hell, with a little creativity, you can bruteforce pass Uni too, but youre just wasting your own time/money)
I also agree with the users who believe that Asian-Americans' skills come from parenting as opposed to their language.
I've actually never learned multiplication tables. My parents told me to, but I ended up just memorizing the individual products, so in my mind it would just pop up when I thought of the factors...
So what if you ask an asian child to subtract 3 from 12? Sorry but the 12 - 2 example only applies in very few cases. I would hardly call that an advantage of the asian number system. The western numbers have all the same information in them, they just use position of digits instead of whole new signs for 10, 100 and so on. So there we have a disadvantage: The western system only uses 10 digits, the asian system uses about 10 + log10(number range). Plus/Minus 1 I guess, to lazy to check. An asian child has to be taught the numbers 0 to 9, the number 10 and multiplication to calculate stuff up to 99. A western child has to be taught the numbers 0 to 9, multiplication and the concept of higher digit positions. Both systems need a deeper understanding whenever it's not something simple as simple as 10 * x, 10 + x, (10+x) - x.
To become good at mathematics you need practice. A lot of practice, even if your naturally talented. For most people that's the single most important factor. And we all know that working hard and is a common theme in asian culture.
I attribute math proficiency to practice, and I had to do these 3000 'Question Bank' series in middle school which just contained nothing but questions.
On July 09 2010 04:27 Roffles wrote: Hmm, nice read. Always thought it was cause they drilled us to do so much practice work that it became ingrained into my memory.
that helps too but that wouldn't really explain this Assumming statistics are correct and most of Asian Americans that do well in math are 1.5 or 2nd generation.
On July 09 2010 04:29 JeeJee wrote: i think it's an interesting idea but probably has little to do with truth
for example russian language is probably worse than english in this respect (for instance, two hundred isn't "two hundred" although it's close -- 2 is dva, hundred is sto, but 200 isn't dvasto, it's dvesti). worse still, arbitrarily after 500, instead of using 'sto' for hundred, you start using 'sot' instead. yet, russian math skills are still >> ones here
We don't actually mean math theory. We mean math as in schooling. If you think about it Germans have great mathmaticians if not one of the bests in the world but not many of them are good at math during schooling. And yes I know Germans!
Do you honestly think your simplistic explanation accounts for that graph? A slight linguistic difference that may or may not even exist in Asian immigrant households makes their performance in a highschool aged test that much better? How do you explain the black children performing so poorly? They are learning the same numbers as the white kids when they grow up.
Let's not ignore other factors. For example:
I suspect Asian immigrants are likely to be higher educated than average Americans in general, especially if they immigrated first for college, or graduate degrees. Of course not all Asian immigrants entered the US that way, some were refugees, etc. or were sponsored by family members, etc.
Math based degrees, like engineering, seem to be in higher demand in Asian countries in general, thanks to their rapid growth creating a higher demand for engineers.
That only helps conception on basic math concepts, when i entered high school i was already taking calc.
What helps in math is doing the work and being dedicated to it, Asian Americans are more likely 1st or 2nd generation from being immigrant parents, they tend to come from a stricter culture most kids i know that are Asian don't speak any asian language (unless their Chinese for some reason a ton of cheese force their children to learn it, again Anecdotal evidence) I have no proof of anything but i rather think it's becuase Asian parents tend to force their children to do well academically, you know those Dad:you a doctor yet? kid: no dad i'm 12 Dad: you a disgrace, come back when you a doctor. jokes come from somewhere.
I like the points raised in OP, never thought about it that way. However I'm gonna have to go with the people saying it's mostly cultural. My kindergarten teacher in korea made me write out the multiplication table 10 times each day for about a month?? by the 2nd time it was already easier to just memorize it and write it down while saying it out loud than flipping to another page and copy it. It's just one anecdote but that's the gist of how koreans teach math: drill, reinforced by punishment and rewards. Once it gets into the harder parts like math theory, I heard it's different but I have no idea since I left Korea before I ever reached that point. I have been surviving with the mental arithmetic skills that I retained from korea and people say I am good at math lol
Sorry but this argument is just wishful thinking of the OP. You have so much different ways of using the numbers. For example where and English speaker would pronounce 24 as twenty-four in the Netherlands it would be vierentwintig (four and twenty). And when you take 81 it becomes eighty-one in English, eenentachtig (one and eighty) in Dutch and quatre-vingt-un (four twenty one) in French.
If you would look to all different systems you would most likely find out your theory wouldn't hold up.
On July 09 2010 05:04 spinesheath wrote: So what if you ask an asian child to subtract 3 from 12? Sorry but the 12 - 2 example only applies in very few cases. I would hardly call that an advantage of the asian number system. The western numbers have all the same information in them, they just use position of digits instead of whole new signs for 10, 100 and so on. So there we have a disadvantage: The western system only uses 10 digits, the asian system uses about 10 + log10(number range). Plus/Minus 1 I guess, to lazy to check. An asian child has to be taught the numbers 0 to 9, the number 10 and multiplication to calculate stuff up to 99. A western child has to be taught the numbers 0 to 9, multiplication and the concept of higher digit positions. Both systems need a deeper understanding whenever it's not something simple as simple as 10 * x, 10 + x, (10+x) - x.
To become good at mathematics you need practice. A lot of practice, even if your naturally talented. For most people that's the single most important factor. And we all know that working hard and is a common theme in asian culture.
On July 09 2010 05:17 semantics wrote: I have no proof of anything but i rather think it's becuase Asian parents tend to force their children to do well academically, you know those Dad:you a doctor yet? kid: no dad i'm 12 Dad: you a disgrace, come back when you a doctor. jokes come from somewhere.
math is like starcraft, keep practicing, make sure you have a solid understand of the basics, creative stuff comes out later.
seriously, i think Asians just do 'better' at math because they are forced to do it more [and it's pretty boring mostly]. When I was in grade school in China, we had these exercises, where we always had to do 300 questions of random simple calculations such as 4+3=?, and 5+6=? etc etc [with a time limit]. But when u get to middle school, you can feel very easy to think about more complicated concepts, because the simpler 'mechanics' of math takes no thinking.
The simple way to test this is to look at an asian who didn't learn chinese.
Furthermore, all this provides is faster learning at a low level if you're chinese. The graph is kinda off. If you want to compare people who learn by chinese and english, then you group them by such and not by race.
On July 09 2010 04:27 Roffles wrote: Hmm, nice read. Always thought it was cause they drilled us to do so much practice work that it became ingrained into my memory.
that helps too but that wouldn't really explain this Assumming statistics are correct and most of Asian Americans that do well in math are 1.5 or 2nd generation.
On July 09 2010 04:29 JeeJee wrote: i think it's an interesting idea but probably has little to do with truth
for example russian language is probably worse than english in this respect (for instance, two hundred isn't "two hundred" although it's close -- 2 is dva, hundred is sto, but 200 isn't dvasto, it's dvesti). worse still, arbitrarily after 500, instead of using 'sto' for hundred, you start using 'sot' instead. yet, russian math skills are still >> ones here
We don't actually mean math theory. We mean math as in schooling. If you think about it Germans have great mathmaticians if not one of the bests in the world but not many of them are good at math during schooling. And yes I know Germans!
this looks like an economic graph to me. don't you think that could be the reason for the differences?
On July 09 2010 04:27 Roffles wrote: Hmm, nice read. Always thought it was cause they drilled us to do so much practice work that it became ingrained into my memory.
that helps too but that wouldn't really explain this Assumming statistics are correct and most of Asian Americans that do well in math are 1.5 or 2nd generation.
On July 09 2010 04:29 JeeJee wrote: i think it's an interesting idea but probably has little to do with truth
for example russian language is probably worse than english in this respect (for instance, two hundred isn't "two hundred" although it's close -- 2 is dva, hundred is sto, but 200 isn't dvasto, it's dvesti). worse still, arbitrarily after 500, instead of using 'sto' for hundred, you start using 'sot' instead. yet, russian math skills are still >> ones here
We don't actually mean math theory. We mean math as in schooling. If you think about it Germans have great mathmaticians if not one of the bests in the world but not many of them are good at math during schooling. And yes I know Germans!
this looks like an economic graph to me. don't you think that could be the reason for the differences?
if it was economic graph whites would be above asians by a bit.
edit:i forget old money super rich people inheritance doesn't actually count as getting an income to skew the graph.
I think I will just mention it really fast. If we look at the immigration policies that U.S. puts on Chinese immigrants, we can see that they are very strict that they meet a certain education criteria, such as having a bachelor's degree. As a matter of fact, it used to be that many students from top universities in china would get a student visa to do their higher graduate studies in the U.S. (students often needed to win scholarships to come, because otherwise they couldn't afford it). These students later apply for a green card. That way only people that made it out of the cut throat competition from China's vast talent pool had means to come. While time has changed, it is still true that the speed at which you gain a green card is correlated with the job and education you have. As you see, 2nd generation students Chinese (I can't speak for all east-asians, confirm if this is true for other nations too) not inherited a education-oriented culture, but also genes, after one round of selection.
Sure, education emphasis plays probably a much larger role on mathematics achievement than the way we count. But I've lived in U.S. for almost... 9 years now? And all my theoretical math I learned here, my understand of math in Chinese covers up to solving systems of linear equations and that is all, which comes nowhere close to my math education in the States. Still, when it comes to arithmentics, Chinese language makes so much more sense than English so I never ever do arithmentic in English because it sucks balls compared to Chinese in terms of simplicity and speed, even pronounciation.
Oh yeah fyi, Chinese people isn't great at theory, they're too "concrete". At times I feel I'm bit too "concrete" for my own good, thinking very close to objects and pictures, rather than general theories. Alot of factors goes into how people turn up though, there are quite a few Asian mathmaticians here at berkeley, but the majority of the students in math major here is not asian, they're into eecs or some shit
On July 09 2010 05:04 spinesheath wrote: So what if you ask an asian child to subtract 3 from 12? Sorry but the 12 - 2 example only applies in very few cases. I would hardly call that an advantage of the asian number system. The western numbers have all the same information in them, they just use position of digits instead of whole new signs for 10, 100 and so on. So there we have a disadvantage: The western system only uses 10 digits, the asian system uses about 10 + log10(number range). Plus/Minus 1 I guess, to lazy to check. An asian child has to be taught the numbers 0 to 9, the number 10 and multiplication to calculate stuff up to 99. A western child has to be taught the numbers 0 to 9, multiplication and the concept of higher digit positions. Both systems need a deeper understanding whenever it's not something simple as simple as 10 * x, 10 + x, (10+x) - x.
To become good at mathematics you need practice. A lot of practice, even if your naturally talented. For most people that's the single most important factor. And we all know that working hard and is a common theme in asian culture.
The 12 - 2 example indeed applies in a few cases, but the important part of the OP is that the asian child will encounter the concept of substraction first, because of the way numbers are spoken. And all learned skills are cumulative. So if the child already understands the concept of 12 - 2, it might be easier for the child to figure out 12 - 3.
And the part about western numbers using position of digits instead of whole new signs for 10, 100, etc, the way you write it down is not yet relevant for the young child, it's the spoken language that makes him/her understand the concept. And besides, not all asian countries have new characters for 10, 100, etc.
Oh yeah I fucking hate asians who do pre-med, mindless drones they are, afraid of taking hard classes to hurt their GPA and they "compete" with one another in retardedly easy classes that doesn't require half their brain power. But I digress...
OP's argument is a simple one, perhaps he overextended that idea a bit too much which caused some confusions, but in short: OP argues: In pre-school period when children encounter numbers for the first time by parents speaking to them, Asians have an advantage right away because of their language structure. OP does a very good job explaining why there is such advantage.
However, OP made a bit of a generalisation that seems to cause the people to think that his argument is this instead: The Asian language is what makes Asians good at math.
Then of course, people in the thread started to argue: "Oh it's because they put more emphasis on education also" "Oh it's because the Asians come to U.S. is already the smartest of Asians" "Oh it's because they also force their kids to memorise multiplication tables" "Oh it's because ..." ...
Which are all valid points on their own, but they do not invalidate OP's original argument, as his original argument is in a very narrow scope where the additional arguments do not apply. He is talking about a specific period of time, that is, birth until grade-school, where the Asian language gives Asians an advantage at math that is not enjoyed by English speakers. And comparisons of math capabilities of children in high school and beyond do not apply.
On July 09 2010 06:53 evanthebouncy! wrote: Sure, education emphasis plays probably a much larger role on mathematics achievement than the way we count. But I've lived in U.S. for almost... 9 years now? And all my theoretical math I learned here, my understand of math in Chinese covers up to solving systems of linear equations and that is all, which comes nowhere close to my math education in the States. Still, when it comes to arithmentics, Chinese language makes so much more sense than English so I never ever do arithmentic in English because it sucks balls compared to Chinese in terms of simplicity and speed, even pronounciation.
Something you learned when you were young comes easier in your first language than your second language. Ok. Do you really think your experience abstracts to some sort of human universal when it comes to learning math? That we should take it as proof that Chinese is absolutely faster than English when it comes to arithmetic? Come on.
On July 09 2010 06:57 evanthebouncy! wrote: Oh yeah I fucking hate asians who do pre-med, mindless drones they are, afraid of taking hard classes to hurt their GPA and they "compete" with one another in retardedly easy classes that doesn't require half their brain power. But I digress...
i know these ppl, it doesn't even require them to attend class t-t
On July 09 2010 06:53 evanthebouncy! wrote: Sure, education emphasis plays probably a much larger role on mathematics achievement than the way we count. But I've lived in U.S. for almost... 9 years now? And all my theoretical math I learned here, my understand of math in Chinese covers up to solving systems of linear equations and that is all, which comes nowhere close to my math education in the States. Still, when it comes to arithmentics, Chinese language makes so much more sense than English so I never ever do arithmentic in English because it sucks balls compared to Chinese in terms of simplicity and speed, even pronounciation.
Something you learned when you were young comes easier in your first language than your second language. Ok. Do you really think your experience abstracts to some sort of human universal when it comes to learning math? That we should take it as proof that Chinese is absolutely faster than English when it comes to arithmetic? Come on.
Not nessesarily. A lot of times I find certain expressions much more natural in English than in Chinese, and I learned English after Chinese. For instance, when I try to argue something logically, English makes a lot more sense than Chinese (good for poems thou). Of course, it does not constitute as a "proof" for anything, but again, I am not trying to prove to you Chinese is absolutely faster than English when it comes to arithmetic. And now that I've told u that in the case of expressing logic, I used to do them in Chinese but now I do them in English, it means there is something inherently to the English language that makes it better than Chinese in terms of expressing logic, for me. Similarly, I hope you can understand there is something inherently to Chinese that makes it faster for arithmetic than English, for me, and the reason is not simply as I learned Chinese first before English. I do not expect people to pick up Chinese just for the sake of arithmetic, because they can never be comfortable with Chinese to begin with. However, as I speak both language equally on a daily basis, more English in terms of academic on top of that, the fact that I still use Chinese for arithmetic is significant.
editing for a TLDR: In short, I use both Chinese and English. They are good at different things, and I feel inclined to use one over an other in different situations, and that choice is not because I have traditionally done something in one language over another, but because something inherent to that language makes it better than other at expressing certain ideas.
How about a study comparing Asians brought up in China (with Chinese as their first language) compared to Asians born and brought up in the Western world (with English or some other language as their first language)?
In my opinion, this is akin to seeing a correlation and then fitting a theory to suit the results. It's the common 'ice cream causes shark attacks' and then reasoning that sharks have some natural inclination to the smell of humans who eat ice cream.
Which are all valid points on their own, but they do not invalidate OP's original argument, as his original argument is in a very narrow scope where the additional arguments do not apply. He is talking about a specific period of time, that is, birth until grade-school, where the Asian language gives Asians an advantage at math that is not enjoyed by English speakers. And comparisons of math capabilities of children in high school and beyond do not apply.
I don't know if you can state that as fact solely based upon the OP's reasoning.
OP, you need to change all the "asians" in your post to "chinese". Koreans don't use chinese characters for math, just regular numbers like americans.
And the reason why the stereotype that asians are good at math exist is not because asians are naturally smart or some other dumb reason. They generally study hard or their parents push them hard to do well in school overall, that is why it seems like asians seem to get the A's all the time. because they practice a lot. Some of my white friends call themselves "dumb" and "not naturally good at math" but the reality is that if they tried as hard as me and actually studied aggressively, they'd get good grades too. Race has nothing to do with it.
what about the concept of decimal points, unless there is a emphasis on using fractions which i thought was only a US thing which like addition and subtraction is taught at a young age. I think i learned negative numbers and fractions in the 3rd grade.
I wouldn't say a small preconceived advantage at a certain part can cause a drastic difference in performance. Often academic performance comes down to learning habits and skills rather then using a different form of numbers or anything like that. Making background and culture far more important.
Also if the OP statement was even true it's effects would be on early math not really related to the math given on the SAT's which has to do more with brain development and conceived notations.
On July 09 2010 06:56 Thats_The_Spirit wrote: The 12 - 2 example indeed applies in a few cases, but the important part of the OP is that the asian child will encounter the concept of substraction first, because of the way numbers are spoken. And all learned skills are cumulative. So if the child already understands the concept of 12 - 2, it might be easier for the child to figure out 12 - 3.
And the part about western numbers using position of digits instead of whole new signs for 10, 100, etc, the way you write it down is not yet relevant for the young child, it's the spoken language that makes him/her understand the concept. And besides, not all asian countries have new characters for 10, 100, etc.
Agreed it does not work for 12-3. Since it introduces a brand new concept of substracting from a base 10 and there is no way of the child figuring out how to approach this concept. However this is not the case for numbers that are not substracting from a base 10. For e.g. 19-9, 19-8..., 19-1. 18-8, 18-7, .... 11-1 (45 combinations from that alone) This is possible since the "10" and the single digits are separate in East Asian languages.
On July 09 2010 05:35 Golden Ghost wrote: Sorry but this argument is just wishful thinking of the OP. You have so much different ways of using the numbers. For example where and English speaker would pronounce 24 as twenty-four in the Netherlands it would be vierentwintig (four and twenty). And when you take 81 it becomes eighty-one in English, eenentachtig (one and eighty) in Dutch and quatre-vingt-un (four twenty one) in French. If you would look to all different systems you would most likely find out your theory wouldn't hold up.
My paper would only hold up if you have the group of people from different races studying at the same level of mathmatics. Thus it can only be tested on a country with different kinds of race/nationality (USA, Canada, Australia and New Zealand) studying at the same level. People seem to be comparing the level of mathematics from their country/school with the level of mathematics from their country/school. They are not studying at the same level of mathematics nor the fact they can study at higher level proves in anyway they have natural mathematic skills. Someone put their hand up if they are from USA or Australia: a Dutch, French or Russian are dominanting math in their class and not Asians.
Also I'm Korean, not what you would call "wishful" thinking.
On July 09 2010 09:12 semantics wrote: what about the concept of decimal points, unless there is a emphasis on using fractions which i thought was only a US thing which like addition and subtraction is taught at a young age. I think i learned negative numbers and fractions in the 3rd grade.
I wouldn't say a small preconceived advantage at a certain part can cause a drastic difference in performance. Often academic performance comes down to learning habits and skills rather then using a different form of numbers or anything like that. Making background and culture far more important.
Also if the OP statement was even true it's effects would be on early math not really related to the math given on the SAT's which has to do more with brain development and conceived notations.
Indeed except the fact it is during the early child development. A child would have experienced different concept of numbers during their infancy. It would mean an East Asian child would have understood more of it before coming to school. A lot of people tend to think people learn math only in classrooms.
On July 09 2010 08:54 white_horse wrote: OP, you need to change all the "asians" in your post to "chinese". Koreans don't use chinese characters for math, just regular numbers like americans.
And the reason why the stereotype that asians are good at math exist is not because asians are naturally smart or some other dumb reason. They generally study hard or their parents push them hard to do well in school overall, that is why it seems like asians seem to get the A's all the time. because they practice a lot. Some of my white friends call themselves "dumb" and "not naturally good at math" but the reality is that if they tried as hard as me and actually studied aggressively, they'd get good grades too. Race has nothing to do with it.
No but we say in the same order they do. Every East Asian country does, a point I'm trying to make. We are not talking about children understanding Arabic numbers (not at all) but the actual words and the concept of numbers. A child who has learned 11, 12 or 13 do not recognise arabic numerals or rather words eleven, twelve and thirteen. Furthermore when Chinese do mathematics they use Arabic numerals not Chinese characters.
On July 09 2010 08:54 white_horse wrote: OP, you need to change all the "asians" in your post to "chinese". Koreans don't use chinese characters for math, just regular numbers like americans.
Not only Chinese, but specifically China-born Chinese. Singapore has one of the highest Math scores in the world (according to the TIMSS), and we're a country with more than 70% Chinese. However, ALL of us learn math through an English medium. Case in point, I don't even know what "divide" is in Chinese. All numbers are written in Arabic numerals, and all lessons, notes, textbooks, and exams are done in English.
When I read this section in Outliers, I was thinking, "What nonsense! This is the perfect excuse for non-Asians to think they're weak in Math." The only significant reason for why Asians are good at Math is hard work.
On July 09 2010 08:54 white_horse wrote: OP, you need to change all the "asians" in your post to "chinese". Koreans don't use chinese characters for math, just regular numbers like americans.
Not only Chinese, but specifically China-born Chinese. Singapore has one of the highest Math scores in the world (according to the TIMSS), and we're a country with more than 70% Chinese. However, ALL of us learn math through an English medium. Case in point, I don't even know what "divide" is in Chinese. All numbers are written in Arabic numerals, and all lessons, notes, textbooks, and exams are done in English.
Yeah although I specified in the OP I was clearly talking about the early stages of development before school even begins.
I can't really say it's all hard work. I did get 100% in HSC for math, it had nothing to do with hard work, in fact I only did around 2 hours of math a week and I was forced into it (you got to understand if you get raw 90ish mark it scales to 100% so everyone in raw 90 to 100 get 100 <- Asian kids, percentile system). I seen a lot of non-Asian put a lot of effort in math, it was just not happening. At one point I was tutoring one of my friends in math. There is way too big of a gap it to be just "hard work" or even genetics.
On July 09 2010 08:54 white_horse wrote: OP, you need to change all the "asians" in your post to "chinese". Koreans don't use chinese characters for math, just regular numbers like americans.
Not only Chinese, but specifically China-born Chinese. Singapore has one of the highest Math scores in the world (according to the TIMSS), and we're a country with more than 70% Chinese. However, ALL of us learn math through an English medium. Case in point, I don't even know what "divide" is in Chinese. All numbers are written in Arabic numerals, and all lessons, notes, textbooks, and exams are done in English.
When I read this section in Outliers, I was thinking, "What nonsense! This is the perfect excuse for non-Asians to think they're weak in Math." The only significant reason for why Asians are good at school is hard work.
fixed that for you.
Doing well in school related to someone being a hard worker, also someone who is willing to sit down mostly only as an observer while being lectured to on how something is done, and this is very prevalent in math that has little student interactivity.
On July 09 2010 08:54 white_horse wrote: OP, you need to change all the "asians" in your post to "chinese". Koreans don't use chinese characters for math, just regular numbers like americans.
Not only Chinese, but specifically China-born Chinese. Singapore has one of the highest Math scores in the world (according to the TIMSS), and we're a country with more than 70% Chinese. However, ALL of us learn math through an English medium. Case in point, I don't even know what "divide" is in Chinese. All numbers are written in Arabic numerals, and all lessons, notes, textbooks, and exams are done in English.
Yeah although I specified in the OP I was clearly talking about the early stages of development before school even begins.
I can't really say it's all hard work. I did get 100% in HSC for math, it had nothing to do with hard work, in fact I only did around 2 hours of math a week and I was forced into it (you got to understand if you get raw 90ish mark it scales to 100% so everyone in raw 90 to 100 get 100 <- Asian kids, percentile system). I seen a lot of non-Asian put a lot of effort in math, it was just not happening. At one point I was tutorting one of my friends in math. There is way big of a gap it to be just "hard work" or even genetics.
Oh my mistake, I meant that if you were comparing children with similar IQ but learning math through different languages, there should be insignificant difference in their abilities.
And the point about pre-school development, again I stick by my point that a lot of Singaporean families are English speaking, and almost never use Chinese at home.
On July 09 2010 08:54 white_horse wrote: OP, you need to change all the "asians" in your post to "chinese". Koreans don't use chinese characters for math, just regular numbers like americans.
Not only Chinese, but specifically China-born Chinese. Singapore has one of the highest Math scores in the world (according to the TIMSS), and we're a country with more than 70% Chinese. However, ALL of us learn math through an English medium. Case in point, I don't even know what "divide" is in Chinese. All numbers are written in Arabic numerals, and all lessons, notes, textbooks, and exams are done in English.
Yeah although I specified in the OP I was clearly talking about the early stages of development before school even begins.
I can't really say it's all hard work. I did get 100% in HSC for math, it had nothing to do with hard work, in fact I only did around 2 hours of math a week and I was forced into it (you got to understand if you get raw 90ish mark it scales to 100% so everyone in raw 90 to 100 get 100 <- Asian kids, percentile system). I seen a lot of non-Asian put a lot of effort in math, it was just not happening. At one point I was tutorting one of my friends in math. There is way big of a gap it to be just "hard work" or even genetics.
Oh my mistake, I meant that if you were comparing children with similar IQ but learning math through different languages, there should be insignificant difference in their abilities.
And the point about pre-school development, again I stick by my point that a lot of Singaporean families are English speaking, and almost never use Chinese at home.
And I stand by the fact majority of top math students in Australia/USA are from Korea/China (probably due to lack of Japanese students in Australia). At the end of the day, majority of students who accel in math in a multicultural country like Australia are Koreans and Chinese. These are not 3+ gen East Asians, they are usually 1.5 or 2 generation. You can't just point out the fact that Singaporeans are good at math.
In a country with diverse nationalities e.g. Australia, USA and Canada, 1.5 gen Chinese and Koreans accel in math. Deduce-> 1.5 gen Chinese and Koreans score better in mathematics compare to people from other countries despite the fact they are doing the exact same test and taught the same material. This is called a controlled test. We can narrow down and test non-controlled variables like hard work, language and natural talent.
People from Singapore are good at math Deduce-> Singapore people are good are good at math. ^Cannot deduce to a point where People from Singapore score better in mathematics since they are not doing the same test nor taught at the same level.
So the US is better than the rest of the world at multiplication because it uses ounces/pounds/inches/feet/miles instead of meters and grams.
The asian american achievement gap is due to socioeconomic/educational differences of the parents. If you look at 3rd+ generation asian americans from families that immigrated before world war 2, ones that immigrated due to persecution or low income jobs, I doubt you'll find that much success.
On July 09 2010 11:45 igotmyown wrote: So the US is better than the rest of the world at multiplication because it uses ounces/pounds/inches/feet/miles instead of meters and grams.
If all American kids learns pounds conversion during infancy, YES! This is infancy people. They don't even know what numbers look like. =__=
This is a very good thread, but when I read the title, I thought it would be random tricks to quickly do computations in your head, like how to square three-digit numbers (which I can do in less than 30 seconds BRAGBRAGBRAG :D)
But yeah, I never really thought of the Chinese number naming system that way. I always thought it was simpler than the English one, which introduced fancy new words like "Twenty" and "Eleven" for things that were just "2 tens" and "ten plus one," but I didn't realize that it was subconsciously making me think and know more about math.
Really, though, quite a few people in this thread are equating correlation to causation. By that, I mean that the socioeconomic status (at least here in America) has very little to do with ability in math. I was talking with some of my Asian friends a couple years back (all 1st gen Chinese and Koreans) and we realized that most of our parents immigrated to the US with anywhere between $40 to $100 dollars in their pocket, and they lived off of that money plus whatever intelligence they had in their brains, and that was it. Currently, I'd put us all in the upper-middle class, maybe? Single family household in a nice neighborhood with a decent school system, with about half of us attending private schools, and the rest attending public magnet schools. Chronologically, their current income definitely didn't make our parents good at math. Our parents' math skills let them earn their current income! In fact, Art Benjamin (Harvey Mudd professor that does a lot of cool math stuff) said that the single most reliable factor of determining someone's yearly income was the number of mathematics classes they took in college.
Also, realize that the materials for learning math are relatively inexpensive. To learn English well, you need to first learn the language, but eventually you'll need to read famous literature by authors of the past few centuries, in order to expand your vocabulary or familiarize yourself with past writing conventions. These could be borrowed for free from a library, I suppose, but if people in some poor and unfortunate neighborhoods may not live close enough to a library to access it regularly and practically. To learn math, what do you really need? A pencil, paper, calculator (if you're getting lazy), and math problems (many of which are easily memorized, and can be given to you for free by a family member or friend). With relatively low costs, I doubt socioeconomic status greatly impacts one's ability to learn math.
And people have said that Asian parents make kids work harder. However, this alone does not make Asian kids particularly good at math. With this fact, one must also consider that the main area of knowledge that Asian immigrant parents can teach to their first generation Asian-American children is math. Asian parents can make their kids work hard to learn English, but if the child needs help at home, what can they do? By about fourth grade, I was helping my parents with English, simply because the ability of the human brain to learn a new language before seven is incredibly strong, and my parents had English as their second language, with no exposure to native English speakers until about twenty years ago. Math, however, is the same internationally. Everyone does the same addition, subtraction, differentiation, linear regression, Fourier transform, and so on, up to a very very high level (at which point it's more of an individual thing than a country thing). So while Asian parents can't help their kids with English past maybe 10 or 11 years old, their mathematics knowledge can be a college or graduate school equivalent, a more than sufficient amount to guide a child through their high school education.
On July 09 2010 05:35 Golden Ghost wrote: Sorry but this argument is just wishful thinking of the OP. You have so much different ways of using the numbers. For example where and English speaker would pronounce 24 as twenty-four in the Netherlands it would be vierentwintig (four and twenty). And when you take 81 it becomes eighty-one in English, eenentachtig (one and eighty) in Dutch and quatre-vingt-un (four twenty one) in French. If you would look to all different systems you would most likely find out your theory wouldn't hold up.
My paper would only hold up if you have the group of people from different races studying at the same level of mathmatics. Thus it can only be tested on a country with different kinds of race/nationality (USA, Canada, Australia and New Zealand) studying at the same level. People seem to be comparing the level of mathematics from their country/school with the level of mathematics from their country/school. They are not studying at the same level of mathematics nor the fact they can study at higher level proves in anyway they have natural mathematic skills. Someone put their hand up if they are from USA or Australia: a Dutch, French or Russian are dominanting math in their class and not Asians.
Also I'm Korean, not what you would call "wishful" thinking.
I do understand what you are saying but my point is that when you try to compare the two numeral systems in English and Chinese you have to have at least 1 control group. There are more languages in the world (and outside Asia) that use the same way to pronounce numbers as the Chinese. When you get them into the equation you will see that your points won't hold up as neatly as you'd like.
I know you only want to compare people taking the same classes thus inducing a third languages in the equation will make it difficult but the third language is necessary.
I'm at work at the moment so I can't give you the specific languages but when I'll come home I'll edit them in.
(oh and wishful thinking can be explained in two ways: 1) I'm xxx and this is why we are so good at xxx. So no need to criticize my family for the strict education. 2) I'm xxx and this is why people of xxx are so much better at xxx. So it has nothing to do with my work ethic they are all better. both are wishful thinking if there is no hard proof to back it up.)
aw. i thought this was going to be about secrets like indian math secrets
11 x 12 = 132 (add the two digits 1+2 and put that number in between 12) 11 x 13 = 143 (add the two digits 1+3 and put that number in between 13) 11 x 20 = 220 11 x 27 = 297 11 x 29 = 319 (2+9=11, so you carry the 1 over)
On July 09 2010 23:14 29 fps wrote: aw. i thought this was going to be about secrets like indian math secrets
11 x 12 = 132 (add the two digits 1+2 and put that number in between 12) 11 x 13 = 143 (add the two digits 1+3 and put that number in between 13) 11 x 20 = 220 11 x 27 = 297 11 x 29 = 319 (2+9=11, so you carry the 1 over)
There is also the finger trick you can do when multiplying 6-10
If you take your hands then label from bottom to top your fingers on each hand going from 6-10 6=pinky 7=ringer etc.
now take you're two hand and align up 8 and 7 on differnet hands ie your middle to touch your ring finger
now at that connecting point count those 2 fingers along with all the fingers below them there should be 5
that's how many 10's you have so 50
now with the remaning fingers above that multiply them togheter (your left vs your right hand)
you should have 2 on the left * 3 on the right making that 6
I am a math guy myself, and I have to mention a few things here
1- Their system is really good for early learners. Asian children learn math earlier than others for that reason.
2- Although its good for getting a strong and early base in mathematics, it DOES NOT give you the tools you need to do well in upper level math. It simply has no relevance to what you would actually be doing at high levels. What it DOES do is give firm fundamentals in math, which are extremely important.
3- In my opinion the higher SAT scores have nothing to do with the counting, and more to do with asian culture. From my experiences in the past in school my asian peers were CONSTANTLY nerding out and studying, where as the white students were more focused on trying to get by without doing much at all. I don't think asians are "just better at math", its more like "Asians, for the most part, work really really hard in school and are more prone to be interested in mathematics.."
On July 10 2010 06:43 Surrealz wrote: 3- In my opinion the higher SAT scores have nothing to do with the counting, and more to do with asian culture. From my experiences in the past in school my asian peers were CONSTANTLY nerding out and studying, where as the white students were more focused on trying to get by without doing much at all. I don't think asians are "just better at math", its more like "Asians, for the most part, work really really hard in school and are more prone to be interested in mathematics.."
this.
In the US especially (and probably also western Europe?), there is this kind of stigmatism towards math... lol I always remember this time on the plane coming back from math camp (wooo) when I was still under 15 and had to pay to sit at the back of the plane (stupid rule, really...) There were a bunch of younger (white) kids there. I mentioned I had just gotten back from math camp, and all of them were immediately repulsed. I asked them why they didn't like math. Each one simply said "it's boring."
What? Boring?? Math is the language of the universe! XD
I asked them what was boring about math. They didn't have anything to say. Maybe one of them said it was "hard" or something.
Asian kids, on the other hand, are encouraged (if not forced... lol) to go into math/science and be good at it. Asian kids are taking SAT math classes, AP calculus,... and doing math competitions. At math competitions in the US, probably half the kids are Asian. (Actually the older they are, the fewer Asian kids are there... lol.) At higher and higher levels, up to the top 30 freshmen on the USA Math Olympiad, about half the kids are Asian. But interestingly, at a level higher than that [like the top high school math kids], there are more white kids than otherwise... but there are certainly a lot of Asians who are really really good. And you don't get to that level by just "talent" -- you have to put in a LOT of time, and it tends to be Asians, who are encouraged to do math/science/stuff from a young age, who are willing to and not afraid to put in that kind of time. (or forced to )
Anyone can do calculus, its just a matter of having strong algebra skills. Kids in the US are NOT trying in their early algebra classes and are struggling in calculus. In my high school calculus class there were people who didn't know how to solve a complex fraction for example, and thus suffered. Bad algebra and lack of interest in performance based classes that are 90% tests are really killing the average student here in the US.
If you aren't good at something and aren't being pushed to do well at it, you are NOT going to like it. Asian people are not superior at math, its really just superior STUDENTS are good at math. Asians are almost always going to be pushed, its part of their culture.
On July 09 2010 04:41 mucker wrote: How do you explain the black children performing so poorly? They are learning the same numbers as the white kids when they grow up.
I would venture to say it's the fucked up school system where they generally live. You should watch The Wire season 4, it's all about the schools in inner cities. Eye opening shit.
On July 09 2010 11:45 igotmyown wrote: So the US is better than the rest of the world at multiplication because it uses ounces/pounds/inches/feet/miles instead of meters and grams.
If all American kids learns pounds conversion during infancy, YES! This is infancy people. They don't even know what numbers look like. =__=
And another thing, did you just generalize chinese to all asians? Koreans don't learn chinese characters, they learn western number symbols, especially in infancy and in the US. If koreans (or maybe korean americans) aren't worse than their chinese/japanese counterparts in mathematical ability, I think this hypothesis is pretty bunk.
On July 10 2010 06:43 Surrealz wrote: 3- In my opinion the higher SAT scores have nothing to do with the counting, and more to do with asian culture. From my experiences in the past in school my asian peers were CONSTANTLY nerding out and studying, where as the white students were more focused on trying to get by without doing much at all. I don't think asians are "just better at math", its more like "Asians, for the most part, work really really hard in school and are more prone to be interested in mathematics.."
this.
In the US especially (and probably also western Europe?), there is this kind of stigmatism towards math... lol I always remember this time on the plane coming back from math camp (wooo) when I was still under 15 and had to pay to sit at the back of the plane (stupid rule, really...) There were a bunch of younger (white) kids there. I mentioned I had just gotten back from math camp, and all of them were immediately repulsed. I asked them why they didn't like math. Each one simply said "it's boring."
What? Boring?? Math is the language of the universe! XD
I asked them what was boring about math. They didn't have anything to say. Maybe one of them said it was "hard" or something.
Asian kids, on the other hand, are encouraged (if not forced... lol) to go into math/science and be good at it. Asian kids are taking SAT math classes, AP calculus,... and doing math competitions. At math competitions in the US, probably half the kids are Asian. (Actually the older they are, the fewer Asian kids are there... lol.) At higher and higher levels, up to the top 30 freshmen on the USA Math Olympiad, about half the kids are Asian. But interestingly, at a level higher than that [like the top high school math kids], there are more white kids than otherwise... but there are certainly a lot of Asians who are really really good. And you don't get to that level by just "talent" -- you have to put in a LOT of time, and it tends to be Asians, who are encouraged to do math/science/stuff from a young age, who are willing to and not afraid to put in that kind of time. (or forced to )
I think you are forgetting that Asians make up less than 10% of the US population
mmm whites are less than 50% now. plus most of the 10% of Asians are first-generation --> pushed very hard and probably pretty smart (many have parents who came over for school... then again there are lots of restaurant owners too.) And I guess this goes back to--probably less than 20% of white Americans even (claim to?) like math...
On July 09 2010 23:14 29 fps wrote: aw. i thought this was going to be about secrets like indian math secrets
11 x 12 = 132 (add the two digits 1+2 and put that number in between 12) 11 x 13 = 143 (add the two digits 1+3 and put that number in between 13) 11 x 20 = 220 11 x 27 = 297 11 x 29 = 319 (2+9=11, so you carry the 1 over)
There is also the finger trick you can do when multiplying 6-10
If you take your hands then label from bottom to top your fingers on each hand going from 6-10 6=pinky 7=ringer etc.
now take you're two hand and align up 8 and 7 on differnet hands ie your middle to touch your ring finger
now at that connecting point count those 2 fingers along with all the fingers below them there should be 5
that's how many 10's you have so 50
now with the remaning fingers above that multiply them togheter (your left vs your right hand)
you should have 2 on the left * 3 on the right making that 6
then you just add up the two numbers
50+6=56
7*8=56
GO sliderules!
There's also this trick, to let you square any two digit number in a matter of 2-3 seconds. First, memorize your squares up to 25. That shouldn't be too hard, if you practice. I think most people have at least up to around 15-16 memorized.
After that, for numbers from 25-75, do this trick: 1.) Look at the distance from the number you're squaring to 50. For example, 56 is 6 above fifty. 42 is 8 below fifty. 71 is 21 above 50. Easy enough. 2.) Now, find a corresponding number that is that same distance away from 25. If we're squaring 56, which is 6 above 50, then we count 6 above 25, which is 31. For 42, our number is 17, and for 71, our number is 46. For these new numbers that we have, the units digit will be in the hundreds digit of our final answer. 3.) Square the distance. For 56, we square 6 and get 36. For 42, we square 8 and get 64. For 71, we square 21 and get 441. 4.) Add the numbers you get from steps 2 and 3 together.
So we get, 56 x 56 = 3100 + 36 = 3136 42 x 42 = 1700 + 64 = 1764 71 x 71 = 4600 + 441 = 5041
With practice, you can square two digit numbers between 25 and 75 instantly. It's not too hard to prove why this trick works, if you just spend some time with it.
For numbers 75-100, do this trick: 1.) Find the numbers distance from 100. For example, 91 is 9 away from 100. 2.) Subtract this distance from the number. 91 is 9 away, so we do 91 - 9 = 82. 3.) Multiply your answer from step 2 by 100. 4.) Square the distance, and add it to your answer from step 3.
So 91 x 91 = 8200 + 81 = 8281
This computation, too, can be fairly quick. The most difficult numbers are ones close to 75, and the ones close to and above 25. Even these, though, can take less than 5 seconds.
if i had known that this topic would've been that interesting for you guys, i would've posted that shit when i first learned it years ago. i wonder what else i know that you guys don't
Ah I didn't know this trick yet, thanks for sharing.
When I square I use the round up/down to easy numbers trick. For example 37^2 = 34*40 + 3^2. This way you only have to multiply with single digits. Also calculate from left to right so you can call out numbers almost instantly. This trick also works with squaring 3, 4, or 5 digit numbers. For example 523^2 = 546*500 + 23^2 (again, only multiplying with single digits). The hard part of 4 or 5 digit numbers is not the calculations itself, but remembering the numbers.
if i had known that this topic would've been that interesting for you guys, i would've posted that shit when i first learned it years ago. i wonder what else i know that you guys don't
Well, everybody knows stuff a lot of other people don't. So feel free to make a topic in which you explain things you think is not known to the general public. I always like to learn new stuff
On July 09 2010 11:45 igotmyown wrote: So the US is better than the rest of the world at multiplication because it uses ounces/pounds/inches/feet/miles instead of meters and grams.
If all American kids learns pounds conversion during infancy, YES! This is infancy people. They don't even know what numbers look like. =__=
And another thing, did you just generalize chinese to all asians? Koreans don't learn chinese characters, they learn western number symbols, especially in infancy and in the US. If koreans (or maybe korean americans) aren't worse than their chinese/japanese counterparts in mathematical ability, I think this hypothesis is pretty bunk.
*facepalm* Did you not read the OP? this is all before you learn numerals or characters 'infancy'. I demonstrated with Chinese characters because that's the order all East Asians speak for numerals, no exception (opposed to 'counting'). I mean seriously? Koreans don't learn chinese characters? WE do. I know a lot of Chinese characters, I studied them in Korea. Koreans call it 한문 (hanmoon). However we don't use them when we are doing mathematics, neither do Chinese people. The order of the words are exactly the same. Korean 십(ten)일(one) Chinese 十(ten)一(one); Do you see it now? I have not generalised anything that are not the same for all three languages.
On July 09 2010 23:24 gyth wrote: Thirteen = three + ten Forty = four * ten
Other than eleven and twelve its not really that different. But small barriers can lead to large differences in learning.
You might look at Hebrew where they multitask their letters/numbers.
Exactly. How is an infant going to figure out thirteen = three + ten? Didn't everyone learn thirteen before they learnt that 3 + 10? Forty and four * ten is probably hardest connection a kid can make.
The only real difference between asian and white SAT scores are the asian parents standing behind their kids with the strapon dildos saying "if I see anything other than an A, your going to feel the wrath of Mr. Bumpy"
I knew a lot of asian kids who were good at school, and practically ALL of them had anal parents. Asians coming into this country want their kid to succeed like crazy, so they force their kids into studying hard.
I really don't buy this. I didn't understand how the chinese numbering system worked until just recently. My first language was shanghainese... and its numbering system is probably worse than english's.
The word for 2 as in 1-2-3 is different from the 2 in 12. And 20 is a random word that makes no sense. And my math is still pretty good....
This really is a thread missing the point. Good scores in exams come from wrote learning and wrote learning is the result of repetition. Asian parents (in my experience) make their kids study more therefore those kids get better grades. There's nothing more to it, there's no secret mystery based on the inflection they use when saying numbers or the colour of the pencils they study with or any other nonsense factor.
It really is no harder to understand that 11 is 10 plus 1 than it is to understand that tenone is ten plus one.
On July 11 2010 18:48 Damian wrote: Results of the last Math Olympics (only for pupils):
Rank Land Gold Silver Bronze Points* 1 China 6 0 0 221 2 Japan 5 0 1 212 3 Russia 5 1 0 203 4 SK 3 3 0 188 5 NK 3 2 1 183 6 USA 2 4 0 182 7 Thailand 1 5 0 181 8 Turkey 2 4 0 177 9 Germany 1 4 1 171 10 Belarus 1 4 1 167 *Teams consisted of 6 pupils, each of them could achieve 42 points (6x42=252 points total) To obtain a gold medal you had to get above 32 points, silver above 24 points, bronze above 14 points.
> Asians dominate.
those were 2009 results; 2010 just happened (and there's a thread about it) this year:
1 People's Republic of China 6 gold, 197 points 2 Russian Federation 4 gold 2 silver, 169 points 3 United States of America 3 gold 3 silver, 168 points 4 Republic of Korea 4 gold 2 silver, 156 points 5 Kazakhstan 3 gold 2 silver 1 HM, 148 points 5 Thailand 1 gold 5 silver, 148 points 7 Japan 2 gold 3 silver 1 HM, 141 points 8 Turkey 1 gold 3 silver 2 bronze, 139 points 9 Germany 1 gold 3 silver 2 bronze, 138 points 10 Serbia 1 gold 3 silver 2 bronze, 135 points
of course, 2/3 of the US team is Asian though Also usually, Bulgaria/Romania do better than this. It's a cultural thing: Asians and Eastern Europeans don't stigmatize math--quite the opposite. I'm surprised Iran/Romania/Bulgaria didn't do that well this year though...
Well, I don't know that the math olympics is a good representation of overall math ability. It's really and almost exclusively the quality of the coaching that matters.
On July 14 2010 13:20 love1another wrote: Well, I don't know that the math olympics is a good representation of overall math ability. It's really and almost exclusively the quality of the coaching that matters.
Well, performance in the IMO may be coaching-dependent, I don't really know. However, to get into the MOP program in the US definitely requires a certain combination of effort, desire, and natural aptitude.
On July 14 2010 13:20 love1another wrote: Well, I don't know that the math olympics is a good representation of overall math ability. It's really and almost exclusively the quality of the coaching that matters.
wtf are you serious? It has to do with the individual player's will to work hard and his/her initial aptitude at math. Good coaching (or lack thereof) is a factor but there is no way in hell that its "only coaches".
The american olympic gymnastics team is coached by a lot of chinese people, does that mean the chinese coaches are the ones that earned the gold/silver/bronze? Jesus christ, why don't you think before you post.
And yes there is a stigma against being good at math in the states, its a shame.
Even if we assume that OP is absolutely correct and Asian kids do have an advantage for their introduction to maths, he hasn't proved that it's carried forward into later proficiency. It's not a case like SC where you 14CC or whatever and your SCVs get more minerals to make more SCVs to get even more minerals than the other guy.
EPT
![[image loading]](http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5d/SAT-math-by-race-ethnicity.png)
![[image loading]](http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/a/ac/Race_Income.png)
