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Biff The Understudy
France7914 Posts
On July 02 2010 22:16 Milkis wrote: Whoa, it's a slippery slope! Anyone wanna go sledding? Sadist is absolutely right. All the rules which make a worker's life different than what they were in the XIXth century, which is precisely what he described: child labor, 12 hrs+ a day, no safety whatsoever etc... have been done against the economic logic. It's wortheless to have a good economy if most people of your country are basically slaves. | ||
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jello_biafra
United Kingdom6638 Posts
On July 01 2010 04:49 Excalibur_Z wrote: Why minimum wage exists at all is a mystery to me. Objectively speaking, if there is a company that offers you a job but at a substandard wage, chances are you won't take the job. Conversely, people that are low-skilled or just entering the job market looking for experience will take almost any wage they can get. It's cool if you're earning minimum wage and the government raises it, because sweet, you just got a raise. However, that translates to higher commodity/service prices (due to more consumer money circulating) and all kinds of other unseen expenses. Side rant: I used to buy these Stouffer's French bread pizzas for lunch at the grocery store at 2 for $2.00 just a couple of years ago, now they're 2 for $3.69 =( I get that it's supposed to be fair and designed for people to make a decent living, but the drain it puts on everyone else is brutal. In the current economy where I didn't get a raise last year but the prices of everything I buy regularly has gone up, things have become much tighter for me on a month-to-month basis. The thing you're talking about is called inflation, if there were no minimum wage then it would be the corporate fat cats spending the money that should have been yours and "raising the commodity/service prices" anyway. On July 01 2010 04:34 darmousseh wrote: The government announced it will be shedding government jobs. http://www.businessweek.com/news/2010-06-30/u-k-to-lose-610-000-government-workers-by-2016-.html Normally this is good news for the market. Wages on average would drop encouraging investment and the lowering of prices, however there is a problem. Minimum wage is in the way. without minimum wage, average wages would drop to an equilibrium. With minimumu wage however, prices are sticky, and the increase of supply causes an oversupply of labor, also called unemployment. Instead of a better economy, only higher taxes and more welfare will ensue. 600,000 people just lost their job, of course there's going to be unemployment, the point of this though is to lower the ridiculously high government spending that the previous government gave us, become more efficient and at the same time attract new business to the country to replace the jobs that have been lost. | ||
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Milton Friedman
98 Posts
On July 02 2010 07:57 kzn wrote: Apparently, if-then thinking is "hard"? This article is pretty silly. Thinking certain topics through can be hard, but there is always a knowledge level associated with whatever you are thinking. I read an interview with Bob Shiller from a few years back the other day and in it he said he derived the formula for the length of a spiral after learning about the circumference of a circle. I hope you can see the difference between pre-requisite knowledge and extensions of such into logical arguments. The article highlights the complexities of macroeconomics, focusing on the simultaneity problems and feedback mechanisms that many people are either unaware of or do not bother to deal with. This is pretty much what Caller said in the post below mine but in a more eloquent way. Although I would like to ask you, did you read the article in its entirety? | ||
Milkis
5003 Posts
On July 03 2010 00:14 Biff The Understudy wrote: Sadist is absolutely right. All the rules which make a worker's life different than what they were in the XIXth century, which is precisely what he described: child labor, 12 hrs+ a day, no safety whatsoever etc... have been done against the economic logic. It's wortheless to have a good economy if most people of your country are basically slaves. What the hell is "Economic Logic" supposed to be? If you think "Economic Logic" is "FREE MARKET IS ALWAYS CORRECT" then you are absolutely and utterly wrong. There are many reasons why certain regulations can be welfare maximizing overall. Learn the difference between "why" people argue against minimum wage -- minimum wage is a terrible policy that creates more problems than it solves and increases dropout rates and decrease enrollment rates for higher education. Source Child Labor, work hour limits, safety regulations have NOTHING to do with this. They're completely separate from this discussion. | ||
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Biff The Understudy
France7914 Posts
On July 03 2010 03:04 Milkis wrote: What the hell is "Economic Logic" supposed to be? If you think "Economic Logic" is "FREE MARKET IS ALWAYS CORRECT" then you are absolutely and utterly wrong. There are many reasons why certain regulations can be welfare maximizing overall. Learn the difference between "why" people argue against minimum wage -- minimum wage is a terrible policy that creates more problems than it solves and increases dropout rates and decrease enrollment rates for higher education. Source Child Labor, work hour limits, safety regulations have NOTHING to do with this. They're completely separate from this discussion. You know, I have heard all my childhood by right winger in France that France was doing wrongly because of our social system, that we were unable to adapt to the economic science and that Brits were so much realistic and so much more pragmatic, and they were so right to listen to the economist of the school of Chicago. Well, they were wrong. It left me forever a bit skeptical about how smart economist are and how exact their science is. You say that minimal wage is a terrible policy. There used to be a whole class of people in the UK which were called the "working poors" during Tatcher ear. I let you guess what it means. I respect economists, but they don't replace politics. If I put together what has been said in this thread: 1- Economic science allow you to know what is good and bad for problem which are traditionally absolutely political (like minimal wage) 2- People who talk about economics without having a master at the university are idiots and they should shut up. Conclusion: if you don't have a master in economics, you should shut up and listen the experts, who are the one who know which politics is good and which is bad. That's the exact definition if a technocracy. Sorry to keep believing that my opinion worths as much as any other citizen's. And sorry to still, somehow, believe that the people know better than the experts what is good and bad for him (bad habit of believing in democracy). | ||
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Milkis
5003 Posts
On July 03 2010 06:12 Biff The Understudy wrote: You know, I have heard all my childhood by right winger in France that France was doing wrongly because of our social system, that we were unable to adapt to the economic science and that Brits were so much realistic and so much more pragmatic, and they were so right to listen to the economist of the school of Chicago. Well, they were wrong. It left me forever a bit skeptical about how smart economist are and how exact their science is. You say that minimal wage is a terrible policy. There used to be a whole class of people in the UK which were called the "working poors" during Tatcher ear. I let you guess what it means. I respect economists, but they don't replace politics. If I put together what has been said in this thread: 1- Economic science allow you to know what is good and bad for problem which are traditionally absolutely political (like minimal wage) 2- People who talk about economics without having a master at the university are idiots and they should shut up. Conclusion: if you don't have a master in economics, you should shut up and listen the experts, who are the one who know which politics is good and which is bad. That's the exact definition if a technocracy. Sorry to keep believing that my opinion worths as much as any other citizen's. And sorry to still, somehow, believe that the people know better than the experts what is good and bad for him (bad habit of believing in democracy). Can you somehow weave your statements so that it actually makes sense so I won't be under the impression you have no idea what you're talking about? Your points don't respond to anything I have said at all. Oh boy, "people who talk about economics without having a masters is an idiot". I don't even know how to respond to that because that is the most retarded statement I've heard in this conversation next to Caller. Please get over yourself and your silly presumptions if you even want to have anything close to an intelligent debate. It honestly seems like you have no idea how Economics and Politics interact. | ||
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Biff The Understudy
France7914 Posts
On July 03 2010 06:19 Milkis wrote: Can you somehow weave your statements so that it actually makes sense so I won't be under the impression you have no idea what you're talking about? Your points don't respond to anything I have said at all. Oh boy, "people who talk about economics without having a masters is an idiot". I don't even know how to respond to that because that is the most retarded statement I've heard in this conversation next to Caller. Please get over yourself and your silly presumptions if you even want to have anything close to an intelligent debate. It honestly seems like you have no idea how Economics and Politics interact. Your tone doesn't make you right, and you are not even trying to understand what I'm saying. The question of minimal wage is not even wether it is good or bad for the economy. The question of minimal wage is wether I want people to get paid 1£ an hour in my country or not. My answer is no. I prefer the economy being less performant and live in a contry were people live decently than in an ultraliberal society where the richest people and the big corporations make fucktons of money and the unqualified people slave for no money. You can disagree, but don't say it doesn't make sense or that I have no idea about politics because that is basically untrue. EDIT: about your previous post: On July 03 2010 06:19 Milkis wrote: What the hell is "Economic Logic" supposed to be? If you think "Economic Logic" is "FREE MARKET IS ALWAYS CORRECT" then you are absolutely and utterly wrong. I haven't studied economics, but I read quality daily newspapers since I am 13, and that's, with little variation, has been what I have read over and over by the most serious economists. Although things seem to change a bit since the begining of the crisis. Just one last remark. While reading you, it seems that you believe everybody is stupid in this thread. Why do you bother discussing with people you think are ignorant and stupid? | ||
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Milkis
5003 Posts
Your tone doesn't make you right, and you are not even trying to understand what I'm saying. That's a pretty sweeping accusation, but I'll let it pass. If you want people to understand, respond to their points like you have in this post, unlike your previous post. The question of minimal wage is not even wether it is good or bad for the economy. The question of minimal wage is wether I want people to get paid 1£ an hour in my country or not. My answer is no. I prefer the economy being less performant and live in a contry were people live decently than in an ultraliberal society where the richest people and the big corporations make fucktons of money and the unqualified people slave for no money. If you are willing to accept the costs of having minimum wage, that's fine. All I'm doing is making it clear the consequences of having minimum wage. If your country is willing to accept those consequences, then that's not anyone's problem. The point is, when it comes to "why" you want a minimum wage, you better have a good justification. If it's social preference, then so be it -- however, remember that bad policy always leads to even more bad policy in the end. I haven't studied economics, but I read quality daily newspapers since I am 13, and that's, with little variation, has been what I have read over and over by the most serious economists. Although things seem to change a bit since the begining of the crisis. I don't know what kind of economists you've been reading, but there's a lot of chaff out there that you just need to wait for a wind to blow them away. The gross misapplication and misrepresentation of Chicago School of Economics is definitely some of that chaff, and there's nothing anyone can do to prevent those people from speaking whatever they want. Economic logic is simply figuring out how incentives work. The only thing we assume is that "people respond to incentives", and that's how a lot of economic theory is derived. However, there are a lot of assumptions that many people tend to forget when talking about "the Free Market". "The Free Market" in the end is a long run magical belief that if there's a problem there's an incentive to fix it, etc. The Chicago School's emphasis of the Free Market has a lot to do with distrust in government policies more so than actual belief that the free market is perfect. That is, if the government is to intervene, then they better know exactly why they're doing so and the consequences. Incentives set by the government, or any authority is often ill-desired, and hence, we're "best off" in the long run by letting the market slowly fix itself. This means that in the few cases were we can clearly define what's going on (ie: safety regulations, child labor laws, pollution, etc), government regulation is okay. Things like minimum wage do not tend to be okay in the views of a lot of economists because it, in the end, is an attempt to fix one problem by creating five other problems. Just one last remark. While reading you, it seems that you believe everybody is stupid in this thread. Why do you bother discussing with people you think are ignorant and stupid? Cause I don't think people are stupid, just ignorant. | ||
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