So tonight I was walking my girlfriend to her car in my neighborhood. The time was 12:30am (pretty dark) and my neighborhood is more or less pretty ghetto. As we are about to move closer to the car, two ghetto looking black guys walk towards us. Without thinking, my instincts kicked in and I told my girlfriend to walk back to my house immediately. I walk away from the two black guys as well and look back to make sure they werent following us.
Now here is the problem. Fundamentally, my actions were racist. I judged another person based on the color of their skin and my instincts told me to turn around and get out of there asap. Its been bugging me, since I do not treat other races differently. However, this is the kind of prejudice that im sure a lot of blacks face all the time. I felt like I just added to the problem. This event has been really bugging me. What do you guys think?
Poll: Racist?
No (144)
66%
Yes (53)
24%
Somewhat (Post explaination) (20)
9%
217 total votes
Your vote: Racist?
(Vote): Yes (Vote): No (Vote): Somewhat (Post explaination)
I don't really think it's racist. It was dark, midnight and you say you live in a rough, 'ghetto' area so I'm supposing if you saw anyone walking towards you you'd freak out.
stereotyping is a survival and natural instinct how else would know how to act in similar yet slightly dissimilar situations? by stereotyping based on past experiences everyone is "racist" in a sense
just give each individual a fair chance when the chance arises, and you are fine
if i saw two white guys walking towards me in that kind of area, also dressed in a 'ghetto' way, i'd react the same way you did. I dont think its a race thing
It's not racism, I (and probably you) would have turned away even if they were white. The thought of walking in the middle of the night in such a neightbourhood is scary, and (i think) you would have turned away if you saw two white people or asian or w/e. It is just scary, nothing to do with skin color
You see potential danger and you get away from it. I think it's perfectly fine... I mean people in "more or less ghetto" neighborhoods can be dangerous. When I'm in Montreal, I tend to avoid some people of all skin color =P
I live in a country that is considered very safe, so to me the whole situation seems absurd. I often walk home drunk across the whole city in the middle of the night, and nothing ever happens to give one example. So to me this feels racist as from my frame of reference the chance of you or your gf getting in trouble would be nonexistant.
The real question though, is whether you reacted as you did due to their "ghetto" demenour or their skin color.
That's not racist one bit. Think about it this way. Instead of two ghetto looking black people, what if they were two black people wearing business suits and carrying briefcases? Would you react in the same manner? It wasn't to do with the color of their skin, but how intimidating that make themselves look. People of all races can dress and present themselves in an intimidating manner.
Would you have done the same if it were two black women? If not, then "racist" isn't necessarily the best term for it. You probably would have reacted the same way if it were two men of any nationality, because you're one man up against 2 and feeling the need to defend someone you're emotionally attached to. Whether you were really in danger is up for debate, but it's very sensible for your brain to react the way it did and I wouldn't get too bothered by it.
Now, on the other hand, if two white guys come walking up to you at 1am or whatever in a rough part of town and you think "these must be some fine gentlemen out for a stroll, let me tell them my affinity for Starcraft and introduce them to my girlfriend" then you might be racist. Or stupid. Maybe both.
In other words, I don't think your actions were driven by racism, and I think dwelling on that will do you more harm than good.
people, dont try to evade the issue if i had to choose between two ghetto looking white guys and two ghetto looking black guys, i would still go with the former for my safety's sake this is racism, by definition, yes but racism, as i said before, is not as bad as PC people make it out to be it's a survival instinct not giving an individual a chance based on his race, however, is a different story
i said somewhat, because while that is basically the dictionary definition of racism, it was kind of called for. i mean... its pretty much common sense that the majority of crimes are committed by the black population. now, i dont know WHY thats the case, but it is.
so i mean... yea. its definitely racist, but its definitely understandable. i would have done the same thing.
the IDEOLOGY of racism, to me, is very bad.
but the practical use of it, is not bad at all.
imagine three muslim dudes with their turbans and all that shit walking in to an airport. technically its wrong to search them solely because their muslim, but common sense would say, if anyone is going to blow something up, it would PROBABLY be them.
so... i dont know. its racism, but the good kind. the kind that keeps people safe.
There's two kinds of racism. Harmless racism (being uneasy about 2 black thugs in the middle of the night walking up to your hot girlfriend) and harmful racism (not hiring someone because of their skin color, yelling racist remarks).
Your racism was racism, but there's a reason for it. On the news you keep hearing about child predators and everything, and you see a picture of a black guy. You have been raised by society to see black men as guys that rape white women. Whether or not statistics are on your side, you are still be racist. Prejudice isn't a horrible thing, as long as you are tolerant.
The thing you did wasn't inherently racist either. If you did that, went in your house and then looked at your girlfriend and said, "Well thank god those n***ers didn't rape you, cuz we all know n***ers do that", THEN you would be a racist! Understand?
And dude, what if it was two skinhead kkk looking bastards? You would have reacted the SAME way.
On June 05 2010 15:54 Chairman Ray wrote: That's not racist one bit. Think about it this way. Instead of two ghetto looking black people, what if they were two black people wearing business suits and carrying briefcases? Would you react in the same manner?
black mafias are serious business bro ...
j/k
back on topic, 99 out of 100 people would have reacted the same way, the 1 person is Chuck Norris.
hell even if it were people of my own race, i would do the exact same thing ...
I'm going to suppose that these black men were dressed in a ghetto fashion also? Your reaction is understandable if they were, I would have a certain aversion and suspicion if they were dressed in such a manner.
Which brings me to think, why do people even dress like that :l
Was it racist? Just a little. But your actions may have prevented a bad situation from happening. I am a black man, and I do think how we carry ourselves sends a message to the world about who we are.
In other words, we turn on the TV, and 95% of the black males getting into trouble with the law are all dressed identical to each other. We see a random guy dressed the same way in a dark ally, what else are we to think?
On June 05 2010 16:07 ArvickHero wrote: I'm going to suppose that these black men were dressed in a ghetto fashion also? Your reaction is understandable if they were, I would have a certain aversion and suspicion if they were dressed in such a manner.
Which brings me to think, why do people even dress like that :l
social norms.
just let it go, at best you prevented theft / assault, and at worst you put a damper on two young guys' companionly stroll at night.
On June 05 2010 15:38 Mortician wrote: It's not racism, I (and probably you) would have turned away even if they were white. The thought of walking in the middle of the night in such a neightbourhood is scary, and (i think) you would have turned away if you saw two white people or asian or w/e. It is just scary, nothing to do with skin color
EDIT: Damn it, 2 people said it just before i did
This, I think is a pretty normal reaction. It is like how we sense a probable danger and just reacted to prevent something bad from happening.
It was two ghetto looking guys not racist at all, i would think twice before crossing path with a ghetto looking person at night. If it was two black guys in a smoking well it's racist no doubt. :D
If you would have done differently if you had seen those two men approaching you with the same clothes on but were a diff. skin color, then yeah that would be racist. If not though, you were just doing what any logical person would do.
I appreciate your thoughtfulness about the issue. I think that most people don't consider themselves to be preudice, but then when then they still make a whole lot of judgements based on things like skin color, socioeconomic position, etc.
In that situation, safety comes first. If you are in a not nice neighborhood it is good to be cautious. However, it would be worthwhile to think about how can engage more regularly of people of different ethnic background, because really the biggest thing is just exposure. The more people of other backgrounds you know, the more comfortable to you become.
It's not racist. You were simply intimidated. As a human, you have two options: fight or flight. As a man, it's often better to choose the "fight" option, which means you have more confidence in yourself and that you're not afraid of being intimidated. But then you also have the idea that you should protect your girlfriend from intimidating things, so I suppose flight was an option. Really, though, I would've just opened the car door and made sure my girl drove off safely. The dudes were walking. What could they possibly do against a car?
On June 05 2010 15:58 phosphorylation wrote: people, dont try to evade the issue if i had to choose between two ghetto looking white guys and two ghetto looking black guys, i would still go with the former for my safety's sake this is racism, by definition, yes but racism, as i said before, is not as bad as PC people make it out to be it's a survival instinct not giving an individual a chance based on his race, however, is a different story
Call me racist, but I'd rather the two ghetto looking guys be black. I'm white, fyi. The reason for this is because I think "ghetto looking white guys" feel like they have more to prove and they're generally more hostile as a result.
On June 05 2010 15:58 phosphorylation wrote: people, dont try to evade the issue if i had to choose between two ghetto looking white guys and two ghetto looking black guys, i would still go with the former for my safety's sake this is racism, by definition, yes but racism, as i said before, is not as bad as PC people make it out to be it's a survival instinct not giving an individual a chance based on his race, however, is a different story
Call me racist, but I'd rather the two ghetto looking guys be black. I'm white, fyi. The reason for this is because I think "ghetto looking white guys" feel like they have more to prove and they're generally more hostile as a result.
that's fine we are both being racists and we have our reasons to
i think shifty looking people scare us in general. i remember one night when we were partying in a tennis court (lol) and some shifty drug dealer white guy called one of our friends a slut, and my friend was going to kick his ass, but i held him back cause he could have a knife or some coward stuff (censored).
Let me ask you this. If the two black guys were dressed in business suits and ties and were skinny would you have done the same? What if it were two (white) bikers built like tanks and covered in tatoos.
You might think that your actions were based on race, but often it's the size of the person and how they're dressed that triggers the survival instinct.
Bad neighborhood, late at night, and 2 ghetto guys...I'd get the hell out of there, whether they were white, black, mexican, etc. The way they're dressed and their demeanor matters, not their skin color ^^
I honestly think you would've done the same if the two ghetto looking people were white.
I think the instincts and prejudice you're talking about is not related to the fact that they were black, but rather that you live in a "ghetto" neighborhood and it was late. With that in mind, knowing shit can hit the fan, regardless of color of the people, if they look somewhat "scary" you'd done the same thing. If you lived in a area that was free from any type of violence you'd naturally wouldnt consider anything bad happening when facing a similar situation.
Also, the fact that you're so worried bodes well for you. Don't be worried. There is giving people a fair shake, and there is not being stupid. If you felt threatened, don't be stupid. In any event it's 2 people. And all it takes is someone to say something stupid and then it gets crazy real fast. Never try to man up vs 2 unless you're Chuck Norris or they are real pusses.
Turning around and checking back to see if they are following only alerts them to your weakness if they really are out to start shit. You gotta be careful with that, its a real judgement call whether to demonstrate confidence or play it "safe".
blacks commit a disproportionate amount of violent crime in the united states. i dont think its racist to consider it in possible dangerous situations. it's not like you have any prejudice or ill-will toward blacks but in like the situation the OP told he was just being extra careful...not racist.
On June 05 2010 16:07 ArvickHero wrote: I'm going to suppose that these black men were dressed in a ghetto fashion also? Your reaction is understandable if they were, I would have a certain aversion and suspicion if they were dressed in such a manner.
Which brings me to think, why do people even dress like that :l
yup i think it has to do with the clothing, if you saw 2 black men with a nice shirt, a tie, some dress pants and shiny shoes, you'd brush it off or you would stare at them even more given this is a "ghetto" neighborhood you're in and these fellas are in some nice clothing
While i hate posts that just have a youtube video. I really want to thank jumperer for posting the vid.
The overwhelming majority support my actions and do not think I am a racist. I feel that my perception of my neighborhood (mainly minorities) is contrasted by the normality of a white neighborhood. Is my neighborhood even that ghetto? Or is it because there are alot of minorities that makes it ghetto.
The two black males that walked towards my gf and I, they appeared ghetto only because they had on clothing I deemed as ghetto. One guy wore jeans and a wifebeater and the other shorts and a t-shirt (over sized and old). If those same clothes appeared on a college student in Austin, Tx (my usual residence), I wouldnt think the clothes are too ghetto (even if they were on a black student).
I think the media, my own fears, and insecurities formed the idea that poor/ghetto = dangerous. The only thing those two black men were guilty of were being 1. Poor 2. Black 3. Walking together.
However, if given a second chance, I would still follow my instincts and walk the other way. Its funny how I can justify my actions by telling myself that... in a corporate world situation I would treat a black person the same as a white person. However, in the regular world, if the black guy had "ghetto" clothes on and was poor, then he would be dangerous and threaten my livelihood. Whereas if a white guy had ghetto clothes and was poor, he would probably be only a beggar.
I'm not afraid of whether or not I am the type of racist that shouts out offensive things out of my car or whatever. I am not that type of person. However, I am afraid that I might be the type of person that discriminates subconsciously and therefore adds to the systematic racism that still exists today.
You do no believe one race is inferior to another, you simply recognize that certain races in your area often come from certain environments and carry stereotypical traits as a result.
If you were raised in a different country/city, you'd have different stereotypes to help get you through day to day life.
This is not a thing you can discuss on a forum without knowing how the guys looked, etc. Maybe you'd have reacted the same way if they had been white, maybe not. Probably a question you should ask yourself.
Whatever the case may be, you reacted correctly imho. And even if you reacted the way you did because they were black it doesn't necessarily have to be racist. Maybe your subconsciousness was recalling all the incidents involving black people that you know from TV, movies, etc. and thus you draw the impromptu conclusion: black guys in a bad neighborhood = better get my girlfriend to safety and avoid them.
It's not really racist, but is prejudiced against that ghetto/gangster subculture for sure. If it had been two black men dressed smartly in expensive suits, I'm sure you would have reacted differently.
I would have done the same thing, doesn't matter if they are black/white or of any ethnicy. If some shady people walks towards you in the night it's always wise to avoid them.
Calling this racism is just dumb, it's more common sense then anything.
anecdote that's more or less related to the problem in the OP: A few years ago I spent a year studying in the US. The last 3 weeks of my stay I wanted to make a trip through several states just to see as much as possible from the country. Being freaking cheap as humanly possible, I always booked the cheapest motels I could find along the way. This is how I ended up in some freaking ghetto next to New York. The motel resembled a jail by being surrounded by a spiked steel fence and having only one entrace. The reception itself had only one window the size of a small desk with steel bars in front of it. To enter the recpetion one had to go through two locked doors. For a small amount of time I was locked between the two doors so the owner could take a look at me upon letting me to the reception room, where he still was behind a wall of glass (quite possible bullet proof) and steel bars. After checking in (30 minutes after my arrival) I was offered fucking "Coke" in the courtyard by some Hispanic dude that continued his search for customers after I refused his offer. I had to walk 20 minutes to the train station in order to take the train to Manhattan. On my way there, I witnessed a brawl... I also saw that there was a police station nearby and felt somewhat safe until I saw that in front of it there was a monument saying "dedicated to those that have fallen in service". Along the way, for some reasong nearly everybody looked grim. There were mainy blacks, which I didn't mind for the most part, but there were a few of them that just sent me shivers down my spine, not only because they were dressed with that ghetto fashion gangster clothes but because they stared at every single person that passed by as if they were looking for their next prey. I made the mistake to come back from New York past midnight and honestly that 20 minute walk back to the shitty motel was insanely terrifying. The whole setting was just like in a bad horror movie. Little lights on the streets, only shabby buildings along the way, just a few people on the streets (all of the black) and with exception of one guy, everybody else did stare at me as if I were a freaking alien. I don't think I've ever felt so paranoid like that night (that comes from somebody that used to live in a rather bad neighbourhood in a poor ex-communist country). I really had the feeling that somebody will jump at me at any given moment. The next day, I did cancel my reservation at this motel and moved to another town near New York. + Show Spoiler +
the following has no relation to the OP: It turned out that it was populated mainly/only by Hispanics, which however was not a problem at all. It felt like the people here were far more positive than the people in the other ghetto. They didn't have those grim faces but for the most part a rather happy expressions. Also nobody tried to look or behave cool and most importantly nobody did stare at me. Also when I asked them something like which bus I should take to New York or how I can reach my motel they would smile at me and try to answer and help me. I should note though that many of them could barely speak any English, but I was impressed how nice they were: 1. The bus driver didn't know any English so I could not understand what ticket I should by, so one of the passangers helped me. 2. In New York, on the line for the bus to go back to the motel, I had forgotten which bus I should take, so I asked the woman in front of me in the line. She said something in Spanish and then went away, which seemed quite odd to me. But 5 minutes later she came back with another women that was in the front of the line and said: "This woman can speak English". With her help I was able to catch the right bus. 3. When I got off the bus I didn't remember in which direction I should walk to the motel, so I asked one of the passangers if he knew my motel. His English was so bad that he could not accuratelly explain the way I should go, so he offered me to walk with me until we could see the motel. On the way, he made an effort to speak English and told me about the festival that they had this week in the town and we actually had a nice conversation.
Since I experienced a similar situation to yours and acted in a similar way, I totally believe that you are not being racist. At night in such a setting, with all the possible dangers, it doesn't matter if it is two black, white, yellow, green or purple people, it is always scary.
I like how people first try to see if something is understandable/acceptable and then assume once this is the case that it should never be called racism, as some sort of self protection so they never have to live with the thought of being partially racist.
Racism in most cases is bad but in some cases good. If 20 big black guys scare you more than 20 white grannies then that's racism based on common sense. And there's nothing wrong with that.
On June 05 2010 20:18 Liquid`Nazgul wrote: I like how people first try to see if something is understandable/acceptable and then assume once this is the case that it should never be called racism, as some sort of self protection so they never have to live with the thought of being partially racist.
Racism in most cases is bad but in some cases good. If 20 big black guys scare you more than 20 white grannies then that's racism based on common sense. And there's nothing wrong with that.
You should look up what racism actually means, as should everyone in this thread.
Stereotyping people by the color of their skin, based on the available data isn't racism. It's something akin to racial profiling, but that still won't be racism.
I get college crime alerts for my area and 90% of the time, the suspects are black. Should I be more afraid of black people or any other type in my area? Black. Is it racism? No. It's a rational expected value assessment.
On June 05 2010 20:18 Liquid`Nazgul wrote: I like how people first try to see if something is understandable/acceptable and then assume once this is the case that it should never be called racism, as some sort of self protection so they never have to live with the thought of being partially racist.
Racism in most cases is bad but in some cases good. If 20 big black guys scare you more than 20 white grannies then that's racism based on common sense. And there's nothing wrong with that.
Good point, i guess we're all racist then since we act sometimes differently with different people of different races for good or wrong reasons.
edit : i looked the wiki definition of racism
Racism is the belief that race is a primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race
Does it mean that as long as you don't think there's a superior race you're not racist?
Hell whatever stay away from suspicious ghetto guys that's all
On June 05 2010 20:18 Liquid`Nazgul wrote: I like how people first try to see if something is understandable/acceptable and then assume once this is the case that it should never be called racism, as some sort of self protection so they never have to live with the thought of being partially racist.
Racism in most cases is bad but in some cases good. If 20 big black guys scare you more than 20 white grannies then that's racism based on common sense. And there's nothing wrong with that.
You should look up what racism actually means, as should everyone in this thread.
Stereotyping people by the color of their skin, based on the available data isn't racism. It's something akin to racial profiling, but that still won't be racism.
I get college crime alerts for my area and 90% of the time, the suspects are black. Should I be more afraid of black people or any other type in my area? Black. Is it racism? No. It's a rational expected value assessment.
a belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various human races determine cultural or individual achievement, usually (but not always) involving the idea that one's own race is superior and has the right to rule others.
a belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various human races determine cultural or individual achievement, usually (but not always) involving the idea that one's own race is superior and has the right to rule others.
Propensity to commit crime doesn't fall under cultural or individual achievement. Saying "black people are more likely to commit a crime in this specific area under these specific circumstances (ghetto at night)" doesn't necessarily mean you subscribe to the belief black people aren't able to achieve anything and are thus more likely to commit crimes.
If you go to a 3rd world country where crime rates are higher, should you be more cautious? Yes. Does that mean you're racist towards the ethnic groups in that country? No.
Hey man, it's not racist, but nothing you can be persecuted for. To be honest follow your gut. Even if they weren't black, they could have been white or even asian or mexican....as long as you had that gut feeling something isn't right, or you feel like they will cause trouble for you since its that late at night--you had the right instincts.
We're all a little racist in a way, but stereotypes just didn't invent themselves imo, they were fed and fed and fed until finally we are more prone to believe the natural trend than differentiate right away.
While i hate posts that just have a youtube video. I really want to thank jumperer for posting the vid.
The overwhelming majority support my actions and do not think I am a racist. I feel that my perception of my neighborhood (mainly minorities) is contrasted by the normality of a white neighborhood. Is my neighborhood even that ghetto? Or is it because there are alot of minorities that makes it ghetto.
The two black males that walked towards my gf and I, they appeared ghetto only because they had on clothing I deemed as ghetto. One guy wore jeans and a wifebeater and the other shorts and a t-shirt (over sized and old). If those same clothes appeared on a college student in Austin, Tx (my usual residence), I wouldnt think the clothes are too ghetto (even if they were on a black student).
I think the media, my own fears, and insecurities formed the idea that poor/ghetto = dangerous. The only thing those two black men were guilty of were being 1. Poor 2. Black 3. Walking together.
However, if given a second chance, I would still follow my instincts and walk the other way. Its funny how I can justify my actions by telling myself that... in a corporate world situation I would treat a black person the same as a white person. However, in the regular world, if the black guy had "ghetto" clothes on and was poor, then he would be dangerous and threaten my livelihood. Whereas if a white guy had ghetto clothes and was poor, he would probably be only a beggar.
I'm not afraid of whether or not I am the type of racist that shouts out offensive things out of my car or whatever. I am not that type of person. However, I am afraid that I might be the type of person that discriminates subconsciously and therefore adds to the systematic racism that still exists today.
The overwhelming majority of TL don't know a lot of things they post about.
You had a reaction of aversive racism. The majority of discrimination that occurs in the US today is aversive. A similar thing is not looking at and feeling uncomfortable when talking to disabled people. Or putting your hands in your pocket when you walk past a black person. These are subconscious reactions based on how you've been socialized.
The good news is that you were paying attention, caught it, and now you can actively try to change your behavior in the future. Don't worry, everyone does it. It's impossible to be perfectly immune to it.
People are going to justify it based on the setting and clothes, but I'd be willing to bet if it were two white boys dressed like that, you would've been fine and then you would've laughed at how ridiculous they looked. Maybe you still would've been scared because of the time and setting, but it'd be less severe.
How fucking ridiculous are things getting that when two dodgy black guys approach you at midnight in the ghetto and you avoid the situation you have some kind of moral crisis and worry/need assurance about whether you are racist or not...
If you saw 2 white people dressed like thugs you would do the same thing, judging by appearance is not always bad just you can't be too extreme in judgments
Take the biggest anti-racism activist, put him in the same situation and see how he reacts. Nothing to feel bad about. Seriously this whole racism thing should be put to rest.
How come there's no 'racism' between people of different eye color?
On June 05 2010 20:55 Jibba wrote: The good news is that you were paying attention, caught it, and now you can actively try to change your behavior in the future. Don't worry, everyone does it. It's impossible to be perfectly immune to it.
Are you out of your mind? There's nothing worse then taking that approach into a potentially hostile situation.
If you do not feel safe, then you are not safe. Do what you think will minimize your potential risk in that kind of a situation. You did the right thing, and at this point you're just over-thinking what happened. Ask yourself what would have happened if you had not taken the action you did? Would you have been safer to have ignored those fundamental feelings? You felt those for a damned good reason, and you're short-changing yourself if you think that the next time you should have acted differently. In short, do not ignore your instincts: they will keep you alive and well, whereas taking the high road will rarely do the same.
While i hate posts that just have a youtube video. I really want to thank jumperer for posting the vid.
The overwhelming majority support my actions and do not think I am a racist. I feel that my perception of my neighborhood (mainly minorities) is contrasted by the normality of a white neighborhood. Is my neighborhood even that ghetto? Or is it because there are alot of minorities that makes it ghetto.
The two black males that walked towards my gf and I, they appeared ghetto only because they had on clothing I deemed as ghetto. One guy wore jeans and a wifebeater and the other shorts and a t-shirt (over sized and old). If those same clothes appeared on a college student in Austin, Tx (my usual residence), I wouldnt think the clothes are too ghetto (even if they were on a black student).
I think the media, my own fears, and insecurities formed the idea that poor/ghetto = dangerous. The only thing those two black men were guilty of were being 1. Poor 2. Black 3. Walking together.
However, if given a second chance, I would still follow my instincts and walk the other way. Its funny how I can justify my actions by telling myself that... in a corporate world situation I would treat a black person the same as a white person. However, in the regular world, if the black guy had "ghetto" clothes on and was poor, then he would be dangerous and threaten my livelihood. Whereas if a white guy had ghetto clothes and was poor, he would probably be only a beggar.
I'm not afraid of whether or not I am the type of racist that shouts out offensive things out of my car or whatever. I am not that type of person. However, I am afraid that I might be the type of person that discriminates subconsciously and therefore adds to the systematic racism that still exists today.
The overwhelming majority of TL don't know a lot of things they post about.
You had a reaction of aversive racism. The majority of discrimination that occurs in the US today is aversive. A similar thing is not looking at and feeling uncomfortable when talking to disabled people. Or putting your hands in your pocket when you walk past a black person. These are subconscious reactions based on how you've been socialized.
The good news is that you were paying attention, caught it, and now you can actively try to change your behavior in the future. Don't worry, everyone does it. It's impossible to be perfectly immune to it.
People are going to justify it based on the setting and clothes, but I'd be willing to bet if it were two white boys dressed like that, you would've been fine and then you would've laughed at how ridiculous they looked. Maybe you still would've been scared because of the time and setting, but it'd be less severe.
You shouldn't consider yourself a racist. You wouldn't want to be around whites who dressed like that I bet in the middle of the night. Although you did over react most likely.
On June 05 2010 20:55 Jibba wrote: The good news is that you were paying attention, caught it, and now you can actively try to change your behavior in the future. Don't worry, everyone does it. It's impossible to be perfectly immune to it.
Are you out of your mind? There's nothing worse then taking that approach into a potentially hostile situation.
If you do not feel safe, then you are not safe. Do what you think will minimize your potential risk in that kind of a situation. You did the right thing, and at this point you're just over-thinking what happened. Ask yourself what would have happened if you had not taken the action you did? Would you have been safer to have ignored those fundamental feelings? You felt those for a damned good reason, and you're short-changing yourself if you think that the next time you should have acted differently. In short, do not ignore your instincts: they will keep you alive and well, whereas taking the high road will rarely do the same.
It's not truly instinct, since it's conditioned, and the vast majority of modern society is based off of challenging "instinct." For your grandparents, "instinct" was that a black man shouldn't be left alone with a white woman.
you are just arguing semantics it is our instinct to do things that will maximize our survival we learn to do this by taking in knowledge (conditioned, if you really want to say)
This is not racism. Survival instinct based on your previous experiences and merely caution. Racism is when you do not serve food in your restaurant to black ppl because they are black and you didn't have any previous problem with black ppl before.
nah, it IS racism but people have been drilled into their heads that "racism is omg so bad" racism is completely reasonable and a natural human response of course, not giving an individual any chance because of his skin color is different and wrong
I would be careful of any guy from any race walking around at midnight. If you feel threatened in any way at all, it's better to take a safer course of action. This has a lot more to do with feeling safe than feeling racist.
On June 05 2010 22:48 phosphorylation wrote: you are just arguing semantics it is our instinct to do things that will maximize our survival we learn to do this by taking in knowledge (conditioned, if you really want to say)
It's not knowledge. It's perception. Perceptions are often wrong.
On June 05 2010 23:07 meegrean wrote: I would be careful of any guy from any race walking around at midnight. If you feel threatened in any way at all, it's better to take a safer course of action. This has a lot more to do with feeling safe than feeling racist.
Yah, but if I was to walk past an Asian guy at 3:00am I'd feel a lot safer than walking past a Black guy.
It has to do with me feeling safe, but you can't deny that this is inherently racist and I don't believe our society will change any time soon.
On June 05 2010 22:48 phosphorylation wrote: you are just arguing semantics it is our instinct to do things that will maximize our survival we learn to do this by taking in knowledge (conditioned, if you really want to say)
It's not knowledge. It's perception. Perceptions are often wrong.
perception is based on knowledge, what are you talking about i am not saying perception = truth of course perceptions are wrong sometimes, but perceptions exist for a reason; because they are often more correct than wrong
watch the movie "crash", EXACT same scenerio in that movie. it got A LOT of rewards and is all about prejudice / racism in this world, trust me if this got you buggin... this movie will blow your mind - highly recommended
How is it being an "instinct" justifies the behavior? I can agree to an extent that "racism" in this form is incurable; but simply following your "instinct" only makes you less human more animal. We have many "natural instincts" that we cannot obey in modern society, so this being an instinct doesn't justify it. Just be honest with yourself.
If you see two white/asian/hispanic dudes dressed exactly the same way in that situation, would you run?
im asian, but if I were to live in the same suburb as in the movie 'Gran Torino', and walked by gangster asians, then yea i would definitely run. It's less about the way they look and more about the way they dress and the environment you live in.
If I were to see a black guy, well dressed, no baggy pants, no oversized tshirts, to me he would definitely be a lot more approachable.
On June 06 2010 02:44 Severedevil wrote: The OP: -Followed his instincts. -Reflected on them afterwards.
Well done.
I agree.
I really don't know what to say. Most people are arguing that it's justified because inherently he was fundamentally trying to protect his girlfriend and himself from any possible threat. Therefore arguing that it was merely a survival instinct.
However, others argue that it was inherently wrong because it was a conditioned response to a supposed "dangerous" situation. Therefore being a case of racial profiling. However, I don't think the OP was at fault, but society and more specifically the media to be responsible for how he acted. They are the entity portraying minorities from impoverished areas as threats.
I honestly would of done the same thing, regardless of skin color.
Maybe not racism but sure as hell it's prejudice. But hey, even if the black dudes noticed you, no one in your white boi's club is gonna think any less of you.
racist, yes. but its always better to be on the save side and be cautious. some people will go at you for merely looking at them... unless you can take on most of these people better be careful and avoid confrontation.
maybe they were nice guys and all, but theres no way to be sure until it would be too late.
I think the "ghetto looking" probably has more to do with it than being black. If it's 3 AM and I come across someone of any skin colour with saggy pants and a backwards hat, especially in a ghetto area, I'm gonna be afraid.
IF you had based your reaction SOLELY on the color of their skin, then you are racist. All you have to do to answer your own question is to imagine yourself in slightly modified contexts (or actually put yourself in them, then reflect again later as you did here) to see if this is true, i.e. different clothing, different time of day, different neighborhood/area, two white guys dressed exactly the same in the exact same situation, two women instead of men, etc etc. It's pretty simple actually, you shouldn't be that bothered by the question of whether you're racist or not; the possibility of the answer being "yes" is whats actually troubling you. Don't mix the two up and make it more difficult for yourself.
On June 05 2010 20:18 Liquid`Nazgul wrote: I like how people first try to see if something is understandable/acceptable and then assume once this is the case that it should never be called racism, as some sort of self protection so they never have to live with the thought of being partially racist.
Racism in most cases is bad but in some cases good. If 20 big black guys scare you more than 20 white grannies then that's racism based on common sense. And there's nothing wrong with that.
You should look up what racism actually means, as should everyone in this thread.
Stereotyping people by the color of their skin, based on the available data isn't racism.
[...]
yes it is. any kind of stereotyping is discrimination. any kind of judgement you reach based on appearance, in this case color of skin, is racism. after all the colour of skin has nothing to do with the character of a person. even if 99% of black people were living in unforgiving, lawless ghettos it would still be racism to treat them all as if they disregard laws until you confirmed the history or character of that one individual you are dealing with.
I wouldn't call that racist, you were just thinking about your safety. I'd think anyone would feel potentially threatened if two shady looking men of any ethnicity were approaching in the dark.
Racism in casual discourse means "discrimination based on race/ethnicity". In this situation the test to determine if you were racist would be if you would commit the same actions if the two persons were white or of another race. If the answer is yes then you were racist. Anyway, it's better to be safe than sorry.
Once I was walking home at 3am and saw 6 black dudes walking along. I had the urge to cross the street... but after checking that I had nothing on me, I decided to walk by them and see what was up. I had some fear since I knew somebody that got sucker punched and mugged by a black guy tying his shoe laces a week earlier. rofl. Well nothing happened, they just looked at me and I looked at them. I don't really recommend that action since it looked like they were trying to build up courage to mug me.
It's not your extrovert actions that determine whether you are a racist or not. It doesn't really matter if you muster up the courage to walk past the black men in the street or not, your thought pattern is still the same. It's your own "responsibility" to reflect over why you react the way you do. But it doesn't mean its fine just cause all black people are portrayed as muggers in media or because your girlfriend was raped by black men one year ago. By generalizing people based on past experiences or values you are essentially being a coward.
It wasn't racist per say. You just profiled them which is an entirely natural thing to do. If we didn't profile situations we'd be in bad situations a lot more.
We profile naturally so that we can make quick decisions... is it possible those two black men were not going to attack/rob you two? Yes. However in cases of personal safety it's best to err on the side of caution. Your gut told you that the situation was not good so you got out of it quickly. Not racist at all.
I know that I have to be careful in my neighborhood for example. I've been jumped by three young black boys before. In my neighborhood I profile any group of young males no matter their color but especially black because of my experience. Does that make me racist? No I still treat black people when I meet them as if they were anyone else. Just when I'm walking in my neighborhood and a group of young males is nearby and have no reason to interact with me I put my guard up. Simple natural profiling for our own defense and survival.
On June 06 2010 06:07 Shauni wrote: It's not your extrovert actions that determine whether you are a racist or not. It doesn't really matter if you muster up the courage to walk past the black men in the street or not, your thought pattern is still the same. It's your own "responsibility" to reflect over why you react the way you do. But it doesn't mean its fine just cause all black people are portrayed as muggers in media or because your girlfriend was raped by black men one year ago. By generalizing people on past experiences or values you are essentially being a coward.
that is true, and well formulated. but to be 100% on the save side you cannot avoid all prejudices.
On June 05 2010 20:55 Jibba wrote: People are going to justify it based on the setting and clothes, but I'd be willing to bet if it were two white boys dressed like that, you would've been fine and then you would've laughed at how ridiculous they looked. Maybe you still would've been scared because of the time and setting, but it'd be less severe.
But if the black guys were dressed well, do you think he would have still been scared? I know I wouldn't.
People that present themselves in a threatening way deserve to be treated as threatening. Whether it's "racist" or not is pretty irrelevant, in my opinion.
On June 05 2010 20:55 Jibba wrote: People are going to justify it based on the setting and clothes, but I'd be willing to bet if it were two white boys dressed like that, you would've been fine and then you would've laughed at how ridiculous they looked. Maybe you still would've been scared because of the time and setting, but it'd be less severe.
But if the black guys were dressed well, do you think he would have still been scared? I know I wouldn't.
People that present themselves in a threatening way deserve to be treated as threatening. Whether it's "racist" or not is pretty irrelevant, in my opinion.
That's not the point.
4 scenarios:
1. Well dressed Asian guy approaches you at 2:00AM. You do not react.
2. Well dressed Black guy approaches you at 2:00AM. You do not react.
3. Poorly dressed Asian guy approaches you at 2:00AM. You do not react.
4. Poorly dressed Asian guy approaches you at 2:00AM. You react by crossing the street and looking behind you.
The point is, all other variables held constant, I, along with 95%+ of the population, are more likely to avoid the black guy than the Asian guy.
Eh, I wouldn't really say it's racist. You see two "ghetto looking" guys (regardless of color) walking around a little past midnight, it makes sense to be cautious.
Edit: and to the guy above, I have avoided Asian dudes in pretty much the same way when walking around at night Then again, I could just be in that 5%.
Racism is believing in the inequality of "races", you clearly are not racist. I agree with what most people say here, it was a stereotype, and I would probably have done the same thing, with white ghetto looking guys also.
ROFL and another thing if i see a group of intimidating or even ghetto looking Asians walking towards me ...i can't help but picture them pulling out keyboards and mouses trying to rob me ..sorry lol
On June 06 2010 09:37 reza wrote: ROFL and another thing if i see a group of intimidating or even ghetto looking Asians walking towards me ...i can't help but picture them pulling out keyboards and mouses trying to rob me ..sorry lol
I'm positive you would run even if you seen a 12 year old flip with a red bandana on his head. You talk like a coward lol.
On June 06 2010 09:37 reza wrote: ROFL and another thing if i see a group of intimidating or even ghetto looking Asians walking towards me ...i can't help but picture them pulling out keyboards and mouses trying to rob me ..sorry lol
I'm positive you would run even if you seen a 12 year old flip with a red bandana on his head. You talk like a coward lol.
I wouldn't run from anyone wearing a 'red' bandana buddy.You don't even know me kid just shutup before you make yourself sound stupid.
On June 05 2010 20:55 Jibba wrote: People are going to justify it based on the setting and clothes, but I'd be willing to bet if it were two white boys dressed like that, you would've been fine and then you would've laughed at how ridiculous they looked. Maybe you still would've been scared because of the time and setting, but it'd be less severe.
But if the black guys were dressed well, do you think he would have still been scared? I know I wouldn't.
People that present themselves in a threatening way deserve to be treated as threatening. Whether it's "racist" or not is pretty irrelevant, in my opinion.
That's not the point.
4 scenarios:
1. Well dressed Asian guy approaches you at 2:00AM. You do not react.
2. Well dressed Black guy approaches you at 2:00AM. You do not react.
3. Poorly dressed Asian guy approaches you at 2:00AM. You do not react.
4. Poorly dressed Asian guy approaches you at 2:00AM. You react by crossing the street and looking behind you.
The point is, all other variables held constant, I, along with 95%+ of the population, are more likely to avoid the black guy than the Asian guy.
That's true, but my point is that I would never feel guilty about avoiding anyone that's intentionally presenting themselves in such a way as to make me feel nervous.
I had a similar situation in oakland california. Ghetto dressed black kids and then a really nice SUV approaches with 25 year old ghetto dressed black kids. At first I didn't react because its oakland, but when I saw the nice SUV i got more suspicious. In the end they walked by me and didn't bother me so I stayed where i was at.
I think it was a pussy reaction tbh. And the fact that you admit you feel you were being racist is even worse.
ANY time I am out late walking and see some people I immediately go on alert and tread cautiously. Black, white, mexican, whatever. There are just as many hoodlums of any race so it doesn't matter what they look like at all.
In fact, I'd probably be more uncomfortable if I saw a bunch of white kids dressed ghetto style. Whigger kids always out trying to prove something.
Does the skin color really matter in this case? There are 2 scenarios that could happen with people of whichever race you pick.
1 - they try to mug you, fuck you or bother you in some other way - better avoid them 2 - they just want to borrow a lighter to light up a joint or cigarette- they could even invite you to smoke with them - here you can choose which is better.
I would add to your post with my own story: I was about 18-19 years old and lived in Topeka, KS. We used to go to the ghetto part to get the liquor. That part of town was scary as hell. Once i got some brew and walked out the store. There was a black woman freaking out that her car battery went down and she needs help and that she is very scared in these "ghetto" parts. Do you think this "black lady" was being racist ?
I think the fact is that everybody is racist. The important thing is to know that you're better than that. Your instincts are based on emotion, but as long as your conscience tells you that racism is not right, I think that's the best you can do. It's not ideal, but it's the most practical.
On June 07 2010 19:42 Ricjames wrote: Does the skin color really matter in this case? There are 2 scenarios that could happen with people of whichever race you pick.
1 - they try to mug you, fuck you or bother you in some other way - better avoid them 2 - they just want to borrow a lighter to light up a joint or cigarette- they could even invite you to smoke with them - here you can choose which is better.
I would add to your post with my own story: I was about 18-19 years old and lived in Topeka, KS. We used to go to the ghetto part to get the liquor. That part of town was scary as hell. Once i got some brew and walked out the store. There was a black woman freaking out that her car battery went down and she needs help and that she is very scared in these "ghetto" parts. Do you think this "black lady" was being racist ?
I think the term racist is too broad these days.. I guess this can be technically racist, but not something you should be stressing about imo.
Night time+ unknown men, you did the right thing. Was it totally fair? No. But whatre you gonna do, make them take a personality test before you decide if theyre dangerous?
I think you should be more worried IF they were equally threatening white men and you didnt have the same reaction, rather than having this reaction to black men. Safety is the bigger issue here.
the act itself is pretty much by definition racist and/or prejudice, but if you're actually in the ghetto (very subjective—lots of goofy white kids call my city 'ghetto' just because we're near a bunch of real ghettos) late at night, you're an idiot if you're not watching your ass regardless of the skin color of the people approaching you.
Better safe than shanked or something!
Different story if it's like 3 in the afternoon and you turn to your girlfriend, 'RUN, BLACK PEOPLE'. This is just being street smart.
EPT
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