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It has come to my attention that TvZ is, by far, the most biased matchup in the SC:BW universe. Basically, it seems pretty apparent to me that playing TvZ is much, much easier than playing ZvT. When a C ranked terran and a C ranked zerg face off against one another, the result is pretty much a foregone conclusion: the terran will sweep the game convincingly.
Before you start flaming me for being a noob, please let me illustrate…
In the early game, all terran needs to do is spam marines. Just lay down about 3 or 4 barracks and spam M. That’s it. Zerg, on the other hand, needs to decide between rushing and going hatchery, scouting with a valuable drone or spawning an extractor. Oh, and don’t let the terran guy see your overlord, or you’ll get supply blocked.
Chances are, terran will scout you before you can do any damage whatsoever. Zergling rush? Wall in. Forgot to wall in? No problem, just make a bunker. When the rush fails, zerg is already behind, in quite possibly one of the most unforgiving non-mirror matchups in the game. OK, so zerg opts for fast hatch? Just make an expo to equal his econ and a bunker next to his hatchery, it’s probably already GG. He brings out drones to defend? Unless he’s Jaedong, chances are it’s over.
Then terran gets about 10 marines and zerg needs to defend like crazy. Make 2 sunkens, try to hide your zerglings in an attempt to flank the rines in case of an attack, do all sorts of crazy stuff to try to save your butt. Oh, and did I mention that there’s a nice long timing window before zerg gets mutas where terran can basically walk into your base with 10 rines and 4 medics and kill you no matter what defense you put up? Yeah, put up a few sunkens, sacrifice your econ. Try to build your econ for fast mutas, risk dying to a rine push. Hey, I didn’t say it was easy.
Once he gets mutas, just make a few turrets and you’ll be fine. The zerg guy probably has terrible muta micro or multitasking anyway, so chances are you’ll get lucky and kill his mutas when he isn’t watching. (Hyungjoon, anyone?)
Let’s say zerg chooses fast lurker to contain you and abuse your lack of detection. Get a science vessel before you move out and save yourself the anxiety of walking into a hold lurker trap like every other D- terran player. Scourge? Nothing rines can’t handle. He's using lings or mutas to distract rine fire? move the vessels back...the rines will take care of the kamikaze critters. Zerg has lurkers in front? Move your army back, and drop his main...guaranteed the overmind will break into tears.
He’s getting defilers you say? No problem, you probably have a tank or two before his first defiler is out. Knock out the sunkens from a distance, and your rines can roam free and kill everything in a matter of seconds. Your timing is a little sloppy? He has dark swarm? No problem…unsiege, moves your rines back. No blood no casualties.
It's much much harder to cast dark swarm or plague correctly than it is to irradiate a lurker or defiler or a group of mutas and watch the blood.
And did I mention that terran can pretty much take 1 dropship and drop about 8 marines + 2 medics in the back of zerg’s main base and destroy his entire tech tree?
Zerg gets another hatchery? OK, just walk about 5 marines and watch the zerg guy frantically cancel his hatchery and watch his drone die mercilessly.
ZvT…not a fun game to play.
EDIT: I'm not implying that C level zergs don't have good muta micro and multitasking, just that it takes a LOT MORE to play zerg WELL than to play terran equally WELL.
 
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FREEAGLELAND26781 Posts
I agree with this, but perhaps we've been watching too much Flash, eh?
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Canada8031 Posts
Did you seriously just suggest that SK terran is easy?
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idiot. if this were true, terrans would never lose to all-in lings or strong mutalisks micro or crazy zerg build. also, C level zergs have strong muta micro and multitasking i dont understand were you are coming from.
the scenario you give us us like a C terran vs a D zerg. zergs arent that helpless trust me.
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for D level, i find zvt a very fun and refreshing matchup. seeing ultras and lurks eat up rines is sure satisfying. i cant say anything for the c level zvt but terran winning is not always the case. as long as zerg can micro and manage units correctly, this is a fairly even matchup mid to late game
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my brother cries about this too^^ but ye, i guess it is much harder to play zerg because you have to do a lot of things at the same time to stay alive. on the other hand, if zerg is good with using dark sworm/lurker ling it's reeeally hard for terran. probably very unlikely under the c- level.
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try microing mnm around against lurker spines and ling swarms. stimming every time there's a battle and making sure your rines are clumped in a ball vs flanks or spread out vs lurkers. also protecting vessels from scourge and making sure to irradiate defilers/ultras/lurks in open field at times. remembering to move your army back while he swarms as well as unseiging your tank and moving that back along with the vessel being pursued by scourges. also 2hatch play can easily destroy fe'ing t's if they dont know whether or not mutas or lurkers are being used
tvz in general is very micro intensive considering both armys can die instantly
statistically speaking yea there's an imbalance in tvz but saying t's have it way too easy isnt right
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I feel the exact opposite, after three months of inactivity my ZvT is the only thing I'm good at. Let me walk you through a typical game for me. 12 pool is fucking awesome, all the money works out so nicely and I can just rally my 12th drone to my nat and by the time I get there I have 300! And if I send the scout out at the same time I have two drones both with purpose and correct timing to fight off early scv's... nice. Save 3 larva, if he one raxs I build 3 drones simultaneously and I like to imagine my opponent grimaces at his in-base cc.
Get my three hatchs up and just straight build drones (okay and one extractor) for like 3 minutes. Hit 35, build one ol at each hatch and send a drone out and... well would you look at that I have plenty of supply and money to get 9 muta's, hell I even got to slip in my 3rd, awesome. The next part is awesome, I get to run around doing my best Jaedong impression and he just has to take it. Take it and macro and tech and not die whereas I get to dick around with my muta's and macro like a god with 4 easy hotkeys. And I have so much money I can tranfer drones, get a den nest evo and another hatch all while having the most fun any sc player can have. Pretty sick.
And if thats not enough I get to macro cheat so hard is unbelievable: minerals getting high, build a billion lings, gas getting high, build a round of hydras they eat a ton of gas. Can't do either of those, get a ultra cavern and if that macro is too hard starcraft just isn't your game  . And we get the imbalance that is defliers, fuck just keeping one at each base makes you an unkillable god. T ball slipped past your army, whatever just counter his nat and let swarm be awesome.
ZvT rocks... except for dropships, holy fuck drops are bullshit and no matter how awesome ZvT is in general, dropship will always be flying dicks. My favorite part of any ZvT is when I'm far enough ahead to build to sunkens at each base and get scourge.
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On April 24 2010 13:03 Spazer wrote:
Did you seriously just suggest that SK terran is easy?
ya lol. Little off the mark there op
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On April 24 2010 13:03 Spazer wrote:
Did you seriously just suggest that SK terran is easy?
lol. 500 apm is easy.
c'mon man
1a2a3a actually takes effort
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Baa?21243 Posts
On March 08 2009 14:54 {88}iNcontroL wrote:
How do you sleep at night?
I mean.. you play a race where you have super weapons at tier two. Spider mines (nevermind the obvious reference to SPIDERMAN) bury themselves under the ground (DT?) to become invisible then they literally get up and run at anything that gets near them and deal more damage than any 1 unit in the entire zerg army save for an infested marine.. oh and they do that damage to multiple units.
Your tanks do as much damage as an ultralisk.. but wait? They then decide to sit the fuck down and deal more than double the damage and oh yeah I almost forgot: they hit everything on the map. I believe they call it the arclite cannon. I know this, because I wake up each night screaming and clawing at the wall to the sound of a tank sieging. That is just when I sleep.. normally I don't sleep because cloaked air units are on my mind smashing overlords and raping my mineral line cause a terran felt like being cheesy..something a zerg player doesn't even have the option of save for "making too much of 1 unit (lings)" and praying the T is a fucking moron.
But hey, it isn't like you have nuclear weapons. Nah, they wouldn't give you that and and a giant air unit capable oflaunching a super weapon and hitting everything else with weapons stronger than anything the Zerg has save for again: the infested marine (which has to kill itself to do that much damage mind you). Nah they wouldn't do that.
Hey dan, how do you sleep at night? How do you sleep knowing that vultures out run everything in the game? How do you sleep knowing that marines, medics and maybe a science vessel or two (really only needed to find the zerg units smart enough to hide in the dirt from a terran army) are needed to kill a sophisticated, mixed and advanced zerg army? How do you sleep?
Better yet.. how angry must you be when you play with this race and lose. How angry? Would you logically assume the imbalance is otherwise? You must. You must do that or else you'd come to the scary realization that this entire game.. the whole game's concept is about stealing wins from terran players. That's all we are trying to do. I mean you have a fucking decade of terran players dominating kespa.
How
Do
you
Sleep.
On May 01 2008 06:10 {88}iNcontroL wrote:
KOREAN MAPS ARE LESS IMPORTANT HAHA
WHAT DO YOU KNOW ABOUT KOREAN MAPS KID? JESUS TRY THE HARD LIFE OF A ZERG. WE DONT HAVE FUCKING MAP CROSSING ARCLITE CANNONS, EVERYTHING CANNOT BE REPAIRS, WE DONT HAVE WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION LIKE SPIDER MINES AND WE CERTAINLY AS FUCK DONT HAVE NUCLEAR WEAPONS CAUSE ANY GAME THAT HAS THAT SUCKS LIKE COMMAND AND CONQUER 3. ALSO, WE DONT HAVE FLYING BUILDINGS OR MOTHERFUCKING DEFENSIVE STRUCTURES THAT SHOOT AIR AND GROUND AND CAN BE REPAIRED AND COST 100$ FUCKING MINERALS. OUR WORKERS DIE WHEN THE WIND BLOWS TOO HARD AND SURE AS FUCK DONT HAVE FUSION CUTTERS. WAIT? YOU HAVE GOLIATHS THAT SHOOT ACROSS THE MAP AT AIR UNITS AND CAN BE REPAIRED AND ARE CHEAP? JESUS WHO MADE THIS GAME.
JESUS I WISH I HAD 5-6 of THE ALL TIME BEST PLAYERS TO MODEL MY GAME AFTER. WAIT? WERENT THEY ALL FUCKING TERRAN? WE HAVE NADA, BOXER, OOV, FLASH, MIDAS and XELLOS ALL KICKING ASS FOR YEARS AT A TIME WHILE WE GET FUCKING FAT ASS JULY WHO SUCKS NOW, YELLOW WHO ALWAYS FUCKING SUCKED BUT NOBODY KNEW FOR A BIT AND WE FINALLY GOT SAVIOR BUT THEN THEY DRESSED HIM LIKE HITLER SO HE SUCKED AND NOW WE HAVE JAEDONG BUT THAT KID CANT FIGURE OUT THE NEW KOREAN MAPS THAT DONT MATTER. JESUS FUCK IT MUST BE NICE TO HAVE PLAYERS THAT SPAN DECADES AND DOMINATE THE ENTIRE TIME. GIMME SOME OF THAT PLEASE.
HEY WHAT ABOUT BUILDINGS DO YOU LOSE A SCV EACH TIME YOU MAKE ONE? NO. WHAT THE FUCK? WHAT DO YOU MEAN YOU CAN ACTUALLY TELL THEM TO RETURN TO MINING AFTER THEY ARE DONE BUILDING? I THOUGHT THAT AUTO MINING GARBAGE WAS FOR HACKERS OR BAD GAMES. TERRAN'S CAN DO IT? FUCK THAT SOUNDS LIKE A SWEET DEAL. EACH TIME WE (zerg) HAVE TO BUILD WE TELL ONE OF OUR SACRED MINERS "HEY FUCK YOU TIME TO DIE" AND THEY DO. THEN WE GET A FUCKING BUILDING. WHICH, HALF THE TIME ISNT ENOUGH: WE HAVE TO PAY MOREE FUCKING MONEY TO GET IT TO DO SOME SHIT LIKE DICK THE GROUND OR SPRAY PISS IN THE AIR.
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Fuck man, I just bitched a little bit at someone earlier for complaining about imbalance.
No, terran is not imbalanced and tvz is not easy. Right now terran just seems to be ahead of zergs because, and this is important, Flash is a total fucking baller and other people are following his lead. When zergs figure out what to do (they will, unless they just sit back and bitch) it will be fine.
Until then, kindly shut up.
Cheers.
Edit: I guess this is more a general complain thread rather than the specific ass kickery that has taken place as of late. You're still wrong, just for different reasons.
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wtf? My main is protoss, but I like to offrace a lot. I think ZvT is never harder than TvZ, plus it's more fun. Dark swarm harder to cast properly than irritiade? basically you need only a couple of defilers in an 200/200 battle and throw those swarms and make your melee army invincible vs marines. gl on casting all those irritiades from group of vessels and microing your huge m&m army when zerg attack moves you and rines' primarly target is those ground units instead of cheap scourges that are basically free compared to vessel cost.
lurkers under swarm? irritiade is the only way to kill them, and killing a science vessel takes only two scourges. compare their cost and build time. Just don't be an idiot and think that you can snipe those vessels running only scourges into the ball of marines. that would be fucking stupid.
On April 24 2010 12:58 zeratultassadar wrote:
Before you start flaming me for being a noob, please let me illustrate…
your illustration did not work.
And did I mention that terran can pretty much take 1 dropship and drop about 8 marines + 2 medics
Please tell me where you find dropships that can hold 10 small units. from C-level? nope.
you are propably D level where micro and strategical playing is almost non existent. On that level you propably can win with just spamming marines.
(ps. dropship full of units can also be killed with only two scourges [Do you know how much a pair of scourges cost? 25minerals and 75gas. YES YOU READ IT RIGHT, 25/75)
Zerg gets another hatchery? OK, just walk about 5 marines and watch the zerg guy frantically cancel his hatchery and watch his drone die mercilessly.
this is stupid statement. almost like:
"Terran gets another command center? OK, just run group of lings and watch the terran guy frantically cancel his command center and watch his scv die mercilessly."
Only way to get free expansions with ANY race is when your opponent is an complete idiot and doesn't scout at all.
Have you ever seen zerg late game tech? There are these big bad ass things called ultralisks...
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God, those inc posts are always worth reposting. Ahahaha...
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Yeah, but we can win without doing a single thing......
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I used to think this when I always ZvT'd. Then I started TvZ'ing and I think it is harder slightly for the terran.
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On April 24 2010 13:01 Rostam wrote:
AzureEye?
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There's actually two winning conditions in sc: Destroy all their buildings or get a swarm in their natural.
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Watch Ret vs Idra's "Do Nothing" Game 
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I've played ZvT a bit before. I can macro fine but managing scourge and defilers/consuming/reburrowing lurkers quickly is SO hard for me T.T
I do feel it's more multitask-intensive for zerg mid-late game with defiler play.
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I think ZvT vs. SK terran is stupid easy as Zerg at C-/C.
Not even fair.
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M & M balls are quite scary
Like Fakesteve's but not quite so hairy
Just practice some more
And soon you'll implore
"2 EZ." So Terrans be wary!
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On April 24 2010 14:07 Bibbit wrote:There's actually two winning conditions in sc: Destroy all their buildings or get a swarm in their natural.
I can testify to the second condition not being true at least 5 times. T_T Man I suck.
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Canada8031 Posts
On April 24 2010 14:36 Frozz wrote:
M & M balls are quite scary
Like Fakesteve's but not quite so hairy
Just practice some more
And soon you'll implore
"2 EZ." So Terrans be wary!
What.
The above was a Limerick.
Joined TL.net Saturday, 24th of April 2010
brb, Googling.
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I always found it easier than PvT, so w/e.
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This certainly doesn't apply to me. I was a Terran user for years and had a C- level TvZ, after having switched to Zerg, after about 6months I had a B- level ZvT while still playing TvZ (i hate all mirror matchups) which was C+ at very best.
A year or so later my TvZ still remains sucky while my ZvT can at times take down A- Korean Terrans.
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agree with most of the stuff written, nice read
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And what about bunker rush?
This cheese is just so easy to pull, totally deadly , incredibly hard to defend and even if the Z player defend it perfectly with absolutely no loss the terran is still ahead. thats a total joke
TvZ is in T favor, i cant understand why so many T cant admit it.
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On April 24 2010 15:53 Weryeery wrote:
And what about bunker rush?
This cheese is just so easy to pull, totally deadly , incredibly hard to defend and even if the Z player defend it perfectly with absolutely no loss the terran is still ahead. thats a total joke
TvZ is in T favor, i cant understand why so many T cant admit it.
That can't possibly be true, or terrans would bunker rush every game and Boxer would still be king of the esports world
The terran has to cut a bunch of economy when they bunker rush, so if the zerg defends "perfectly," he will probably have 2 bases with the terran only on one, probably not even having started their cc yet. I can't see how terran could possibly be ahead.
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I thought AzureEye was banned :/
On April 24 2010 16:20 ramen- wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2010 15:53 Weryeery wrote:
And what about bunker rush?
This cheese is just so easy to pull, totally deadly , incredibly hard to defend and even if the Z player defend it perfectly with absolutely no loss the terran is still ahead. thats a total joke
TvZ is in T favor, i cant understand why so many T cant admit it. That can't possibly be true, or terrans would bunker rush every game and Boxer would still be king of the esports world The terran has to cut a bunch of economy when they bunker rush, so if the zerg defends "perfectly," he will probably have 2 bases with the terran only on one, probably not even having started their cc yet. I can't see how terran could possibly be ahead.
If you go forward 8 rax into bunker rush and fail, your even
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If you play muta builds ZvT is pretty easy on C levels, you just need proper muta micro and good macro while you are doing it. And if you use Crazy Zerg like I do, it makes it extremely easy since very few terrans can keep up with a evenly upgraded zerg army that pumps ultraling continuously. P.S Ultraling is fucking imbalanced and late game ZvT at D/C is not fair period. I can beat C-/C terrans of 2base ultraling if I lose my 3rd/4th
You clearly have no idea what you are talking about. What rank are you at in icc?
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Lol so funny. I play TvZ and ZvT, and trust me, they're about the same in terms of difficulty.
Yes, with good macro you can roll almost all Zergs until about Cish (but a good macro terran is better than C anyway, so it doesn't prove anything), then the rest comes in.
But it seems to me that you don't have a very good grasp of ZvT, rather than it being imbalanced. I once upon a time also had troubles with Z, but trough time I learned some more finer points of strategy. I used to know approx. how to play, get mutas, then lurkling, then defilers then ultras, expand etc., but as I found out later, I didn't have much clue even though I thought I did.
- At first I was lost after the muta stage, I kept trying to kill the mm army by constant attacking, but any good terran will have just tons of units and it'll be very hard. Then I realized I don't really need to attack, just keep him away, on his toes (and wait for a good opportunity to attack) and delay him.
- So slowly got up to a solid understanding of mid game, but once again, I was stuck once I got to late game, I found out that getting and defending the 2nd exp in mid game is crucial for the late game. So I focused on that (delay him with mutas until you get 2 lurkers defending the exp), and it got me some easy wins. But then I kept running into good macro terrans, so they killed me even with my 3 bases.
- So I found out it suits my style better to get the hive a bit earlier (and using the mid game army to delay/keep away the terran until my swarm comes in) and that also allowed me to get my 4th eariler (and with that, ultras or more lurk/def). Not to mention all the positioning tactics, slowing down the terran, backstabs, harrasing, muta micro, lurk/ling micro (+defiler), scourge, scouting (very important to know how to do it, what to look for and how to react), and all the other skills. And this is just the rough version of it, there's a lot of fine tactics that I learned on the way.
So what was once my worst mu (ZvT) is now my best, and what was my best mu (ZvP) is now my worst.
Anyway, try playing some TvZ, it's fun, improves your apm, and you'll learn a lot for you ZvT. Plus, it's hard to too, you have to have a vast knowledge and timing.
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EPT
